Thank you very much Shrouded Crusader though? Hmm, I get dropping Fortunate Redoubt now that we have such high DEF numbers, but I would have figured Shield Amp Relic would be the replacement. Though I can't argue against the usefulness of the clicky. Edited November 9, 2015 by Karlbadmanners

Interesting. Thank you.

Thank you very much Shrouded Crusader though? Hmm, I get dropping Fortunate Redoubt now that we have such high DEF numbers, but I would have figured Shield Amp Relic would be the replacement. Though I can't argue against the usefulness of the clicky.

 

the numbers are based on using it on cooldown. but using it at opportune moments will, i think, be helpful. that said, the numbers between the absorb proc and the on use are very close. you can see this by comparing the S numbers to the A numbers.

Thx mate, really appreciate the help.

I read dipstik suggesting a rating of m=6 for the m/r vs f/t damage ratio on HM bosses.

Is there any update based on logs, and is there any suggestion for NiM bosses?

tl/dr: the 168 endurance enhancements look better for high melee/ranged fights, and the 138 endurance enhancements look better for low melee/ranged fights.

 

I was having an argument over these enhancements with my other tank. We're a casual guild, so still talking 216's right now while getting ready for HM's.

 

His argument is that I (as a PT) should go for mitigation over everything else, which would mean unlettered mods (104E/115D) and enhancements (93E/104D/152X) from token drops. Based on some of your "time to live" calculations earlier, I'm using the B mods (143E/93D) and the random drops (125E/69D/152X) -- and in fact, I can use 220 gear for most of those (151E/99D and 131E/73D/160X), so it's actually a bit more of an upgrade in total budget.

 

His belief is that my endurance stacking (which napkin math says drops me from around 2600 to 2200 defense) will result in about 700 more damage per second taken on average, which effectively wipes out any ~5-6K gain from additional endurance (single-shot hits excluded) over the length of a fight due to the increased stress on the healers.

 

Are his numbers actually accurate? Should I be going with the mid-level enhancements and B mods? Or should I be stacking pure mitigation, despite defense being relatively weak for a PT?

 

We're getting ready for HM's and I really want to get this right.

 

Edit: Here are my numbers using the 220 B mods and Bulwark/Bastion enhancements, versus using the higher-mitigation 216 unlettered and Immunity/Sturdiness enhancements (using the same augments for simplicity) in various combinations:

220 B-mods, 220 Bulwark/Bastion: 6435E, 2044D, 1580Sh, 1005Ab

220 B-mods, 216 Immunity/Sturdiness: 6169E, 2261D, 1556Sh, 977Ab

216 unlettered, 220 Bulwark/Bastion: 6012E, 2188D, 1580Sh, 1005Ab

216 unlettered, 216 Immunity/Sturdiness: 5746E, 2405D, 1556Sh, 977Ab

Edited November 15, 2015 by SelenaCat

part of the reason I post all these numbers is so I don't have to take a stand on any approach. to get the numbers your guildy is talking about would require the boss to be doing 20k+ damage per second (at 6k 10 defense makes you take around 0.5 more damage per second) .

 

my advice is to get enough health to make yourself happy (don't get 1-3 shot) then put the rest in mitigation.

 

for pt, defense is worth about half to a third of absorb/shield.

 

you can download the spreadsheets to play with from the op, assumptions spoiler. you can also use http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8604879&postcount=25

Edited November 15, 2015 by dipstik

part of the reason I post all these numbers is so I don't have to take a stand on any approach. to get the numbers your guildy is talking about would require the boss to be doing 20k+ damage per second (at 6k 10 defense makes you take around 0.5 more damage per second) .

 

my advice is to get enough health to make yourself happy (don't get 1-3 shot) then put the rest in mitigation.

 

for pt, defense is worth about half to a third of absorb/shield.

 

you can download the spreadsheets to play with from the op, assumptions spoiler. you can also use http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=8604879&postcount=25

 

Thanks for the reply, I'll definitely check out that spreadsheet!

 

Not having tanked any HM's, what's the goal for not getting 1-/2-shot? I've seen 80k floating around a lot, is that a good number to shoot for?

 

Out of curiosity, do your dtps calculations include boss crits? That's his biggest concern, that the numbers could be higher, particularly if you fail to mitigate a crit attack.

Thanks for the reply, I'll definitely check out that spreadsheet!

 

Not having tanked any HM's, what's the goal for not getting 1-/2-shot? I've seen 80k floating around a lot, is that a good number to shoot for?

 

Out of curiosity, do your dtps calculations include boss crits? That's his biggest concern, that the numbers could be higher, particularly if you fail to mitigate a crit attack.

 

Bosses can't crit. the damage profiles are hilariously static.

The highest I've been hit for sofar on my sin tank is a 79k hit from DP 4th boss Raptus.

I prob had 0 mitigation on that hit but I was topped of at the moment it hit me so I survived.

hmm, 82 points to endurance or power...hmmm

 

or is that such a small number at level 65, does it really matter? whats 1 more hit?

Edited November 17, 2015 by knowmyname

well the answer to power vs endurance depends on your raid and the boss you are attemting.

Looking at the nim bosses, there are a lot of bosses that don't really spike too hard, so you can do them with ~70k hp without much of a problem, and a lot of them don't even stress the healers too much. Some of them however have brutal DPS requirements in comparison. Other ones are all about tanks taking huge spikes though.

 

A small example:

during the early access week my guild did nim EC tanks. The only time any tank could die (barring some **** ups) is the one tanking the right one at the end of each of the transition phases (and during enrage ofc). endurance has very little value for only this purpose, as every tank can devote a major cd for each of theese occasions without much trouble. The DPS requirements of ~28k raid dps however were so intense for my group in almost full 220 gear that I had to swap out all of my defense mods (as defense is 100% useless on the right side tank) for DPS mods and use DPS stims/adrenals to push another 600-800 DPS.

 

In comparison to that nim Kephess in denova has trivial DPS requirements in all phases (only DPS check is the walker has to die in 4 bombs) and does no dmg up untill the last 2 phases when Kephess joins the party. In that fight you basicly can't have enough mitigation and endurance, as he really likes to anihilate any tank that dares to not have cds rolling for more than a few seconds.

Edited November 17, 2015 by meisterjedi

For 220 rating gear (Hard Mode), you want to shoot for the following stats on average using B mods.

 

Assassin / Shadow use Reactive Warding and Shield Amplification relic.

Defense = 2506

Shield = 1367

Absorb = 1355

 

Juggernaut / Guardian use Reactive Warding and Shrouded Crusader relic.

Defense = 2506

Shield = 1333

Absorb = 1369

 

Powertech / Vanguard use Reactive Warding and Shrouded Crusader relic.

Defense = 2506

Shield = 1564

Absorb = 1138

 

Thanks for this.... I am having a hard time also understanding the table but this basic breakdown is easy for me to understand....I am honestly only working on 216 gear. how much do these numbers change with 208 augments? We still want accuracy at 110% correct? do we need a little alacrity?

These numbers include 14 augments.

Tankstance gives you 10% extra accuracy, so don't put any accuracy in your gear or augments.

In tankstance you shud have 110% or 111% (from companion bonus) melee/force or ranged/tech accuracy.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Magsel

Jugg Tank

 

Having a lot of success with the build. High ping so not doing Ops at this time so running with high mastery armorings and hilts and power crystals. But mitigation stats are where they need to be. I don't have the issues other Jugg tanks I see with agro. I hit a bit harder which helps keep agro. I'm just doing Flashpoints. Mostly Hard Mode but do get into a few Tacticals when HMFP isn't popping.

 

While on my healer I watch other tanks struggle to keep agro. There are a handful that do have succes but they are seasoned tanks knocking out weeklies. They bounce around a lot and area taunt more than I do. I'm finding it hard to recall dropping agro unless I don't swap guard quick enough between 2 bursts DPS. ,Its rare to get 2 good DPS in a queue.

 

I know when I get my set bonus armorings that I'll loose that extra DPS but I still plan on sticking with the power crystals.i could use my 168 set Bonus armorings but the 220 gear is working out better for the Flashpoints. It will change for Operations and I'll make the proper adjustments. I didn't set aside enough time doing ops to get the 180 gear before 4.0 dropped

 

Just wanted to give an update on this unique build that goes against the grind others cookie cut right into without testing different builds.

Edited January 2, 2016 by knowmyname

Jugg Tank

 

Having a lot of success with the build. High ping so not doing Ops at this time so running with high mastery armorings and hilts and power crystals. But mitigation stats are where they need to be. I don't have the issues other Jugg tanks I see with agro. I hit a bit harder which helps keep agro. I'm just doing Flashpoints. Mostly Hard Mode but do get into a few Tacticals when HMFP isn't popping.

 

While on my healer I watch other tanks struggle to keep agro. There are a handful that do have succes but they are seasoned tanks knocking out weeklies. They bounce around a lot and area taunt more than I do. I'm finding it hard to recall dropping agro unless I don't swap guard quick enough between 2 bursts DPS. ,Its rare to get 2 good DPS in a queue.

 

I know when I get my set bonus armorings that I'll loose that extra DPS but I still plan on sticking with the power crystals.i could use my 168 set Bonus armorings but the 220 gear is working out better for the Flashpoints. It will change for Operations and I'll make the proper adjustments. I didn't set aside enough time doing ops to get the 180 gear before 4.0 dropped

 

Just wanted to give an update on this unique build that goes against the grind others cookie cut right into without testing different builds.

 

No meaningful content in the game requires min maxed gear, so I bet theres lots of different builds that work for people

For 220 rating gear (Hard Mode), you want to shoot for the following stats on average using B mods.

 

I found this post to be helpful and I understand dipstik's tables better now, thank you Voths.

 

Dipstik, I assume the 220B mod section still uses 224 rating armor rating and 224 enhancements and 224 relics?

 

Of note, even though the bosses are level 65, the mechanics haven't changed, so the proportion of M/R attacks to F/T attacks is the same in 4.0 as it was in 3.0. While KBN's thread doesn't have % for the legacy operations (EV/KP/EC/TFB/SV/DF/DP), the m's range only from 0.4 to 0.7, and for two out the three advanced classes have almost identical Shield and Absorb Ratings across all values for m. I doubt the legacy operations were that different in terms of ranges of m. In fact, the values for shield and absorb are really only dramatically different for high values of m which tend to fall outside of the observed ratios in 3.0 operations. Furthermore, even in the advanced classes where S and A differ between values of m, the difference is measured in singles of points (at the most 14), which isn't really achievable given the order of magnitude of 208 augments.

 

So, I'm thinking its safe to use the m=0.5 column as a great starting point for any tank, maybe even more than safe. That is, the majority of the time its Best in slot.

 

Is this math the inevitable result of the change of all mods to be Defense Rating? Was this was the dev's way of balancing tank class "squishiness" a little better than previous game updates? It certainly simplifies gearing: now it seems really only to be a decision between spike insurance (higher endurance 220B mods) or healer relief (higher mitigation 224 unlettered), rather than delicately balancing D/S/A ratings on a fight to fight basis.

 

EDIT: also dipstik, can you please elaborate a little on how your are figuring uptime for Shrouded Crusader? Time averaged, or are you assuming that its being activated during the right kind of boss attacks?

Edited January 5, 2016 by phalczen

the damage weights may have changed with 4.0, so i didnt want to make any assumptions there, hence the table for fraction melee/ranged. when i first got these numbers, i was surprised there is so little difference between high and low fraction melee stat distributions. the reasoning behind the shield-absorb numbers remaining constant is most lieky due to defense minimum versus defense optimal being so out of whack for the total budget that shield and absorb find a resting place very quickly, but that would not explain why shadows have a varying amount while juggs do not (since juggs defense optimal and minimum should have a smaller difference). so there must be other things pushing the numbers where they are. maybe it is the kinetic bulwark stuff that makes shadows have a moving target for shield-absorb as they relate to fraction melee/ranged.

 

you are correct, in that the 220 bmod numbers assume 224 armorings and high mitigation enhancements, but with only the 224 warding relic (the other relic being a 224 relic that provides more endurance).

 

for shrouded crusader, it is assumed to be used on cooldown.

Edited January 5, 2016 by dipstik

you are correct, in that the 220 bmod numbers assume 224 armorings and high mitigation enhancements, but with only the 224 warding relic (the other relic being a 224 relic that provides more endurance).

 

For the 224 relic with Endurance, do you think it would be better for an Assassin tank to get a clicky relic or a proc relic?

 

The proc relic would contribute more to the group DPS over time, but the clicky relic might provide better initial threat generation in some key situations when taunt fluffing is not possible. An alacrity clicky relic might even contribute to surviviability by reducing the timer on DCDs.

Pt Tanks could use the healing relics on aoe heavy fights. I think an adrenal may be best for initial theat, but taunt fluffing is free with a cotank. I think the mastery relics are best for dps contribution. If the alacrity buff was longer I could see cooldowns being reduced a good amount, but it would depend on the cooldowns and use.

 

And the tables say what to use for mitigation if you don't need the health buffer.

For the 224 relic with Endurance, do you think it would be better for an Assassin tank to get a clicky relic or a proc relic?

 

The proc relic would contribute more to the group DPS over time, but the clicky relic might provide better initial threat generation in some key situations when taunt fluffing is not possible. An alacrity clicky relic might even contribute to surviviability by reducing the timer on DCDs.

 

DCDs are immune to the effects of Alacrity, so no, it wouldn't. The only "DCD" not affected as such is Recklessness, because it's not initially a DCD for the class.

it looks like the power relics give the most dps, by 2 dps, for tanks. thats based on goblin lacky's numbers. Edited January 8, 2016 by dipstik

DCDs are immune to the effects of Alacrity, so no, it wouldn't. The only "DCD" not affected as such is Recklessness, because it's not initially a DCD for the class.

 

Bummer, I was looking forward to testing that out. Thanks for the correction.

DCDs are immune to the effects of Alacrity, so no, it wouldn't. The only "DCD" not affected as such is Recklessness, because it's not initially a DCD for the class.

 

Which is too bad because I would have loved the rise of the Alacrity Tank that rolled cooldowns 100% of the time.

Which is too bad because I would have loved the rise of the Alacrity Tank that rolled cooldowns 100% of the time.

 

How did I only just read this?

 

Y'know, maybe if they made a class for this sort of idea, the class that runs alacrity even when it tanks. Do a Healer/Tank/DPS base class like the Inquisitor or Bounty Hunter for whom all of their abilities become exponentially better when they overlap, and so you need to try to at least hit a critical mass of alacrity in your build before it becomes potentially very strong. I think it would probably become the most skill based class in the game. Unfortunately, I also think we'll never see it, because we're now over 4 years into the game with no indication of a new class coming any time soon

 

But if they did do a new class, I think an Echani trained melee combatant or maybe a tech-savant/mechanic sorta deal would both be neat (though the first would also probably require the introduction of the Echani into the game).