Yeah....guard belongs on a melee dps.

 

If healers are pulling aggro you are doing something terribly wrong.

If ranged/healers are within 15m they are probably doing something wrong.

Melee are far more susceptible to damage than ranged/healers in most pve content.

who here is arguing for guarding the dps who is actually a healer

if a healer told me this i may actually be convinced

Come back after you've played with a balanced group. When you have multiple permutations of melee/range DPS and healing combos then you will learn that threat management isn't a simple set of absolute rules.

 

You never addressed the scenario where multiple DPS'ers are capable of outputting massive damage that would pull threat from the tank. Your assumptions still lie in that only 1 person needs guard. Once you learn how to play effectively with a group then guard won't be needed. That is what I suggest the OP learn how to do.

 

You guys make contradictory comments.

 

"Melee DPS needs damage reduction" - "Healer should never need that pitiful 5% damage reduction"

 

"DPS need threat reduction" - "Healer will die no matter what" (Not if they drop threat by moving into guard)

You guys make contradictory comments.

 

"Melee DPS needs damage reduction" - "Healer should never need that pitiful 5% damage reduction"

 

"DPS need threat reduction" - "Healer will die no matter what" (Not if they drop threat by moving into guard)

 

 

Those are not contradictory...

 

Melees are going to get hit far more than healers...the damage reduction portion is better served being on melee classes.

 

As many people have mentioned...healing threat in this game is pitiful. It's base is 50% plus they have skills that reduce it from there. My experience has been that if something is hitting a healer...it is because no one else has attacked it at all and hitting it even once with my base attack will pull it off the healer.

 

Equally geared DPS should be able to pull aggro off you in the first 20-30s of a boss fight. After that aggro shouldn't be a problem (except for threat drops). No reason not to allow one of the DPSers the chance to unload a little more early on in a fight.

 

Guard is never really going to make or break anything...but it's best use is on a melee dps.

Those are not contradictory...

 

Melees are going to get hit far more than healers...the damage reduction portion is better served being on melee classes.

 

As many people have mentioned...healing threat in this game is pitiful. It's base is 50% plus they have skills that reduce it from there. My experience has been that if something is hitting a healer...it is because no one else has attacked it at all and hitting it even once with my base attack will pull it off the healer.

 

Equally geared DPS should be able to pull aggro off you in the first 20-30s of a boss fight. After that aggro shouldn't be a problem (except for threat drops). No reason not to allow one of the DPSers the chance to unload a little more early on in a fight.

 

Guard is never really going to make or break anything...but it's best use is on a melee dps.

 

This.

 

Reducing healing threat accomplishes nothing. The only things that will ever be hitting the healer are things no one but them have any threat at all on. A reduction in their % of threat does zero good.

 

I don't understand why it is so difficult to determine that we ought to reduce threat on the people who produce threat. Arguing otherwise is like telling the healer to cast his heals on the person with the full health bar.

I understand what you're trying to say guy - but for the most part you are kinda wrong.

 

End of the day, TECHNICALLY it's situation dependant. Ofcourse there are situations where guard may be better suited on someone else - but for the most part, it belongs on your most deadly melee dps.

 

Look, lets consider the whole out of melee range dps. So everyone needs 130% aggro. In this case, guard should then infact go on your most deadly dps full-stop, whether thats a sorc or a marauder whatever. But the case above that you described means EVERY melee dps must be 100% sure that they're out of the said melee range.

 

You see what I'm getting at? There's no way to know whether they are or not. And taking THAT risk (that the melee thinks hes at 130% range but is really in 110% range) is much riskier than the healer dying. Because without guard, he may be silly enough to dps hard thinking hes at 130% range and end up aggroing and getting one shot.

 

And again, yes its true the healers can stand within the 15m range no problem in most fights, but again they're threat is so minimalistic, that if you're losing aggro to them, in 99% of all cases, few good attacks on said mob that the healer aggroed, and tank will get aggro back.

 

And finally, lets consider most boss fights atm. there's often raid-wide damage. So really, the damage reduction part really is just a tiny bonus, that will have little to no effect on whether you die or live.

 

And just to add. Yes okay when there's lots of mobs around - healer will get aggro first. But only if nobody's hit that mob yet. That threat reduction wont make a difference, because nobody else is generating threat. So like I said before you just need to hit it a little and its on you (or taunt).

And EVEN if the tank is busy, the slighly stronger melee dps such as powertechs or marauders etc should be grabbing them off healers and bringing them to the tank. Such a situation is rare, as the tank would have to be kinda lame, but it can happen. And in said situation, if that damage reduction is on the melee dps, it kinda helps.

 

And one last thing (i just cant stop coming up with reasons), melee dps are more likely to be hurt in general on MOST fight. Again i stress most, because of course there are different situations where different things are ideal. But in GENERAL, melee will take more damage, due to stuff like aoe's from boss, cleaves from bad positioning, fire from Karagga for example or Annihilation Droid's tank knockback followed by hitting one of the melee.

 

Dont get me wrong, Guard on healer isnt POINTLESS, but it's far from OPTIMUM in 99% of cases.

31/10/0 sage healer here...

 

I am almost always in 15m range. It pretty well eliminates my problems with being LOSed. Trying to heal from max range just results in a lot of wiping.

 

In trash fights I usually sit between the tank and the ranged dps- so that everyone can see if I pull aggro. And so that I'll be standing in my own AoE heal, if I decide to drop one. That being said- the guard doesn't do much for me there because I rarely pull aggro that wonn't be wiped out/ taunted away before my bubble expires. But it helps keep me from pulling aggro in the first place by lowering my threat level.

 

Putting a guard on your most deadly dps is throwing it away- because they're still going to generate too much threat when they unload their burst anyway. Better to use it to mitigate damage on your melee dps or healer & keep your healer from ever pulling aggro. But it only works if you healer gets right in the middle of everything.

 

On boss fights I stand further back, and I'm usually out of range. If there is a melee dps- I'd rather see that guard mitigate damage to them. Because when the AoE hits start to come- I'm going to bubble myself first. And that melee dps is probably going to take the worst damage.

 

In cramped quarters- like certain spots in kaon - the guard helps me a LOT.

 

In PvP the guard helps me the most when I'm camping a cap objective, because I've only got 1 mobile heal. In huttball the guard would be better spent on a melee dps. But it helps when assualting or holding cap points in VS or CW.

 

Where it's best used- is very situational....

This thread could have been hilarious but now its not

 

anyway

 

 

yea

This thread could have been hilarious but now its not

 

anyway

 

 

yea

 

seconded

You can blame the OP for beginning the thread by saying something that was simply wrong.

 

It's a good idea for a thread, but best not to open it up by quoting a tank saying something that sounds foolish.

When a healer pulls aggro it is after a threatwipe or on brand new adds that have not been touched by anyone else yet. While their threatgen is on every mob in combat, it is very low.

 

Reducing this low number by 25% won't achieve much. It certainly won't stop them taking aggro from fresh adds or a mob that resets its aggro table.

 

In terms of there being lots of DPS and not being able to guard them all, this is not necessary if they're focusing their fire.

 

Edit: If you're doing it for the damage protection then I hope you realise that it's only a 5% reduction in PVE. The big reduction only works in PVP.

Edited March 23, 2012 by _gideon

melee dps are the best ones to give it to due the the amount of melee unfrendly fights in this game in terms of aoe damage. healers have talents specifically for reducing there threat build up.

 

also if a healer is stupid enough to heal the tank as soon as he pulls so pulling aggro from the ranged mobs that the tank has not yet gained aggro on then no amount of guard will help him. yea its 5% less damage but its much more reasonable to put it on a melee dps thats gunna be taking alot more damage throughout the fight.

Edited March 23, 2012 by snowmon

Can't say I'm the most experienced tank out there but I think that many of you are failing to take into account the bad player X factor. Yes, in the ideal group it would generally make much more sense to guard the most explosive DPS than it would to guard the healer.

 

Alas, many of us are not in high-end designer guilds with genius guild-mates who know to do the exact right thing at the exact right moment. We instead have to rely on pug's that contain a mix of excellent, good, average, or horrifically bad (this game seems to be very forgiving to the latter since -- anecdotally at least -- there seem to be quite a few terribad 50s out there, even geared ones). In such scenarios, proper tactics go right out the window I've discovered.

 

I believe THAT is why many of us found the OP's first post on target. Even with the (imo) improved tanking mechanics of SWTOR, one finds that a well-placed idiot DPS'er can still create havoc if in the mood to do so. In most cases this can be offset through proper tactics on everyone else's part but it would be false to claim that this is not frustrating. No amount of improved mechanics can account for bad play.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Boulis

Can't say I'm the most experienced tank out there but I think that many of you are failing to take into account the bad player X factor. Yes, in the ideal group it would generally make much more sense to guard the most explosive DPS than it would to guard the healer.

 

Alas, many of us are not in high-end designer guilds with genius guild-mates who know to do the exact right thing at the exact right moment. We instead have to rely on pug's that contain a mix of excellent, good, average, or horrifically bad (this game seems to be very forgiving to the latter since -- anecdotally at least -- there seem to be quite a few terribad 50s out there, even geared ones). In such scenarios, proper tactics go right out the window I've discovered.

 

I believe THAT is why many of us found the OP's first post on target. Even with the (imo) improved tanking mechanics of SWTOR, one finds that a well-placed idiot DPS'er can still create havoc if in the mood to do so. In most cases this can be offset through proper tactics on everyone else's part but it would be false to claim that this is not frustrating. No amount of improved mechanics can account for bad play.

 

We know people can be bad, we aren't failing to take that into account. Bad group or no, it makes ZERO sense to guard the healer.

 

Threat reducing someone who builds almost zero threat is a waste no matter what the skill level of your group. A 5% damage reduction on the healer isn't helping the healer very much and that is all this buff offers a healer in the very best case. In reality, they probably aren't going to be in range of the buff very much (especially true in a bad group).

 

Guarding a melee dps will offer damage reduction to someone who is going to take a lot more damage and (more significantly) threat reduction to someone who generates way way more threat.

 

I'm sorry, but if you found the OP's first post on target it is because you lack the knowledge to understand either what the buff does or how threat gain works.

I'm sorry, but if you found the OP's first post on target it is because you lack the knowledge to understand either what the buff does or how threat gain works.

 

No need to apologize since I think you're right (as I actually pointed out in the first part of my post -- though perhaps I was unclear?). No doubt, "on target" was a poor choice of words. Perhaps it's better to state that I sympathize with the OP's apparent sentiments towards idiotic DPS'ers more than with the truth of his/her actual statement.

 

In any case, I think it's obvious that proper tanking involves putting guard on the best dps. But I still think that even the most skilled tank (and I would say I am fairly average though I've always gotten compliments and never complaints) might be driven to distraction by a bad dps'er who aggros everything in sight paying no attention to kill order or tactics.

 

Once I remember wiping twice in a row quickly after putting guard on one of our two dps'ers who simply attacked everything in his line of sight: normals, silvers, golds, whatever. I tried to pop taunts at opportune moments and tried to help him out but ended up overwhelmed. Now it could be that I suck, fine. But when I switched over to guarding the healer (only time I ever did it I promise!) I did not wipe once and although he wiped three times after that, the group as a whole did not suffer since when you lose the tank it often means a party wipe.

 

Now this was just a NM flashpoint and I'm sure if it was an OP or even an HM we would all have wiped no matter what since in those instances it never works to put the guard on the healer, especially with enrage timers being so tight in most cases.

 

But I did feel good after that adventure I must say. I also noticed he was very humble by the end and was carefully choosing who he would unload on. And you know what? No player wants to end up face down repeatedly because of someone else's poor decisions -- not even a tank who generally understands that in many instances that's part of the job profile.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Boulis

Guard is not going to save a dps who doesn't know how to follow a kill order or to avoid breaking CC. If he thought it was a free pass to try to be a hero and do everything himself instead of work as a team I hope he died a dozen or more times at least.

 

It sounds to me like that guy learned his lesson though.

Where it's best used- is very situational....

 

 

as someone who can heal and dps (but not tank, at least not in swtor), i have to say that in my experience, i agree that it's situationally dependent. typically it's best to go on the highest dps, but sometimes i want it on my healer

 

 

as a healer, i often pull aggro on large pulls, especially ambush attacks. everyone seems to do so though.

as a ranged dps, i rarely pull aggro that's not on purpose (unless i'm with a horribad tank), but i know that when i do, at least the healer doesn't have it, because at the end of the day, my healer pulling aggro is much more detrimental to me doing my job than my dps pulling aggro

I think the intention of this thread was to be a lot like "/drink" rather than "Lets discuss the mechanics and uses of Guard in a PvE situation"

 

Personally - I love having to keep myself held together when DPS face pulls when our healer is at half force after a boss fight. LOVE IT

Not at level 50 yet but still either way ***** dps need to learn not to nuke withing the first 5 seconds

 

Why should i wait for 5 seconds? in that time ive allready taken out 2 or 3 weak mobs

 

in this game the tank doesnt need to pick up every single mob in a pack because half of the useal trash packs are weak mobs paired with a strong and the odd elite.

Aslong the tank focuses on picking up the strongs and harder ones and the dps work from weak>strong>elite all goes pretty smooth.

as someone who can heal and dps (but not tank, at least not in swtor), i have to say that in my experience, i agree that it's situationally dependent. typically it's best to go on the highest dps, but sometimes i want it on my healer

 

 

as a healer, i often pull aggro on large pulls, especially ambush attacks. everyone seems to do so though.

as a ranged dps, i rarely pull aggro that's not on purpose (unless i'm with a horribad tank), but i know that when i do, at least the healer doesn't have it, because at the end of the day, my healer pulling aggro is much more detrimental to me doing my job than my dps pulling aggro

 

Guard will never save a healer from pulling aggro. It isn't situational. This will never happen.

 

Healers only have aggro when no one else is touching the mob. Decreasing their threat by a % will not prevent them from having aggro when everyone else has zero threat on that mob.

 

Whether they have guard on them or not they will continue to pull aggro on mobs no one has touched and they will continue to not have aggro on mobs that people are attacking.

 

Guard is wasted on the healer in every situation that it is used on the healer.

When I'm tanking if the healer pulls aggro its either my fault or the DPS fault. In a situation that a healer does pull aggro it has NOTHING to do with being guarded or not. They cause so little threat that the basic free attack is all it takes to pull an enemy back to you most times. Of course there are random boss switches, but guard won't do a thing for that.

 

It's a complete waste to guard healers especially since they spend a lot of time out of range. It does virtually nothing. Guard should be put on melee DPS, period. It's how you get the most use out of it. Don't say there are situations other than a couple fights where guard is going to be better on the healer because there aren't many, not enough to ever claim guard is best served on healers. DPS can pull aggro very easy in this game, it's almost impossible for a healer to do the same.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Mordeguy

As a healer myself, I must agree. The only times I pull aggro are on mobs that no one has hit yet. I have talented into less threat generation, and I have a skill that I use as often as possible to dump threat. I would much rather have guard on the DPS. The damage and threat reduction makes MY job easier as there is (slightly) less damage to heal. This is all for PvE.

 

For PvP, of course, I love having guard on me. It keeps me up longer, which in turn, keeps my team alive longer.

OP, the only argument you've made for not putting Guard on DPS is that if the tank and DPS are doing their jobs correctly than the tank shouldn't be losing aggro anyway. But in this situation you should still be putting Guard on melee DPS because they are going to be taking the most damage from AOE and you can mitigate some of that damage as a tank with guard. If you aren't losing aggro at all than putting guard on the healer is even more of a waste.

I can honestly say I have never encountered a need in any flashpoint or operation where I needed to guard the healer rather than the DPS. It doesn't make any sense. If anyone is going to pull threat from the tank, it is the DPS. If anyone is going to be taking large chunks of damage other than the tank, it is the DPS. Yes healers can get hit with area damage but they are healers so they can heal through it. It is better to protect the DPS who will have to wait for the healer to heal them.

Guard is *usually* best applied to the "best" melee DPS. This is because they will be in the 15m range for guard since all of the tanks operate in melee. This is NOT because of increased threat since to get the melee 130% threat modifier you have to be 4m from the center of the mob's model which means almost no one is currently seen as melee from a threat standpoint. (I do expect that will get changed so that melee threat more closely matches melee attack range, ie 4m from the edge of the boss model not the center.) If/when that occurs it will be even more heavily weighted toward guarding your best melee DPS over all other options. Healers, as others have noted, are way down the list in terms of who to guard because of the reduced threat healing/buffing creates.