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S+V- 8 HM Progression Ranking


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All content in this game is easy. That being said if you look at 16m videos v 8m videos at least for the styrak fight 16m is even easier. the dmg ticks for the same in both modes from KD spikes only you have 2 less healers in 8m. The hp differential isnt much as 16m gains 6 more dpsers to compensate. The tanks take the same amount of dmg as well. Images in 16m do have 6k more hps than the 8m version. channeled manifestations in 8m have 211k hps and in 16m 390k so once again its an easier burn in 16m. The biggest difference however seems to be the enrage timer. In 8m you get an 8 minute enrage timer compared to an 11 minute enrage timer in 16m. Seems like if you want a slightly bigger challenge from this easy content you would have to run the 8m version.

 

Edit: Also I just worked out the math with the enrage and hps and amount of phases being equal in 8m and 16m. In 16m the dpsers only need to do 1530 dps each to beat the enrage timer while in 8m the 4 dpsers need to pull 2450 dps each to beat the shorter enrage. I'm sure those values would change a bit if you add in the tank and healers doing dmg as well but thats the pure dps dmg requirement needed.

 

Wow, and here we thought progression from 8m to 16m would make it tougher lol...1530dps avg...that's like full rakata isn't it? haha

Edited by odawgg
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All content in this game is easy. That being said if you look at 16m videos v 8m videos at least for the styrak fight 16m is even easier. the dmg ticks for the same in both modes from KD spikes only you have 2 less healers in 8m. The hp differential isnt much as 16m gains 6 more dpsers to compensate. The tanks take the same amount of dmg as well. Images in 16m do have 6k more hps than the 8m version. channeled manifestations in 8m have 211k hps and in 16m 390k so once again its an easier burn in 16m. The biggest difference however seems to be the enrage timer. In 8m you get an 8 minute enrage timer compared to an 11 minute enrage timer in 16m. Seems like if you want a slightly bigger challenge from this easy content you would have to run the 8m version.

 

Edit: Also I just worked out the math with the enrage and hps and amount of phases being equal in 8m and 16m. In 16m the dpsers only need to do 1530 dps each to beat the enrage timer while in 8m the 4 dpsers need to pull 2450 dps each to beat the shorter enrage. I'm sure those values would change a bit if you add in the tank and healers doing dmg as well but thats the pure dps dmg requirement needed.

 

Having cleared both 8 & 16 I can confirm all of this. It's frustrating but my group has switched to 8 after we cleared 16 the first week.

 

enrage on styrak on 16 is at least 11+ mins on 8 it is 8 or so mins.

 

You are off on the 2400+ dps but I'd say 2200+ for sure.

 

Hopefully for NM they up the fights like it was in older content where 16 on most fights was more difficult. If they don't outside of the achievement I'll refuse to do it.

Edited by JDotter
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yeah its pretty weak. I didnt check with the guild tanks and heals to see what they do dpswise/dmg during the fight. 2200 is still a lil low though because in our last styrak kill we had our 4 dps all over 2200 and we hit the enrage timer with a few % left to go.
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we also did both 8 and 16man hm and can confirm that it is a walk in the park.

it's enough to say that we needed 1 pull with 15 people to get styrak on 16man hm down, that was really rediculous. half of the people didn't knew the fight on hardmode and some of them even didn't saw that encounter before on any difficulty. overall i think you can easily clear 16 man hardmode with 14 or even less people!

Edited by Messiaah
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How can you compare 8 man to 16 man?

 

When you did the 8 man content you were probably in full 150's (63's) - after a week of doing all the content - or maybe even two weeks - if you jump into 16 man you would be a ton more geared.

 

I bet 8 man is a walk in the park after doing 8 or 16 man the first week - just as you are saying doing 16 man after doing 8 man is.

 

I hate this argument anyways, no side will ever win and it is fairly pointless. Do whichever you think is more fun. For me, I like having more people with me even though they are frustrating :)

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How can you compare 8 man to 16 man?

 

When you did the 8 man content you were probably in full 150's (63's) - after a week of doing all the content - or maybe even two weeks - if you jump into 16 man you would be a ton more geared.

 

I bet 8 man is a walk in the park after doing 8 or 16 man the first week - just as you are saying doing 16 man after doing 8 man is.

 

I hate this argument anyways, no side will ever win and it is fairly pointless. Do whichever you think is more fun. For me, I like having more people with me even though they are frustrating :)

 

People calculated that the enrage timer is increased on Styrak 16m HM and dps requirements per person are decreased compared to 8m HM. There are objective factors, so that's why we can say that in this case 8m HM is slightly harder, just as 16m EC NiM for Tanks and Kephess was harder before the nerf-bats.

 

All in all, both versions are a complete joke, this is by far the easiest content so far, definitely easier than EC HM when it first came out, which is disturbing, to say the least. My guildies will be BiS in about a month, and no NiM in sight. If BW pulls another let's-wait-6-months-for-one-additional-mechanic-per-boss policy I will again personally witness the mass exodus of remaining raiders that care about the endgame of SWTOR. Things do not bode well for 2.0 and the season has just started. They completely dropped the ball by not releasing at least TFB NiM, and, to be perfectly honest, I'd rather see them implement NiM as simply a quantitative increase in difficulty, as they did before the EC NiM fiasco. Let's just say that one more painful period from EC HM to EC NiM (the period in which I saw appx. 50 raiders leave the game) will be a complete deathblow for me and the entire server of TOFN. There are only so many raiders (people that give a damn about endgame) in this game, and this laughable content does not help our cause.

Edited by Krewel
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How can you compare 8 man to 16 man?

 

When you did the 8 man content you were probably in full 150's (63's) - after a week of doing all the content - or maybe even two weeks - if you jump into 16 man you would be a ton more geared.

 

I bet 8 man is a walk in the park after doing 8 or 16 man the first week - just as you are saying doing 16 man after doing 8 man is.

 

I hate this argument anyways, no side will ever win and it is fairly pointless. Do whichever you think is more fun. For me, I like having more people with me even though they are frustrating :)

 

There is a mathematical basis for saying 16M HM is easier solely based on the healing and DPS requirements based on the enrage timers.

 

Regards,

KK

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People calculated that the enrage timer is increased on Styrak 16m HM and dps requirements per person are decreased compared to 8m HM. There are objective factors, so that's why we can say that in this case 8m HM is slightly harder, just as 16m EC NiM for Tanks and Kephess was harder before the nerf-bats.

 

All in all, both versions are a complete joke, this is by far the easiest content so far, definitely easier than EC HM when it first came out, which is disturbing, to say the least. My guildies will be BiS in about a month, and no NiM in sight. If BW pulls another let's-wait-6-months-for-one-additional-mechanic-per-boss policy I will again personally witness the mass exodus of remaining raiders that care about the endgame of SWTOR. Things do not bode well for 2.0 and the season has just started. They completely dropped the ball by not releasing at least TFB NiM, and, to be perfectly honest, I'd rather see them implement NiM as simply a quantitative increase in difficulty, as they did before the EC NiM fiasco. Let's just say that one more painful period from EC HM to EC NiM (the period in which I saw appx. 50 raiders leave the game) will be a complete deathblow for me and the entire server of TOFN. There are only so many raiders (people that give a damn about endgame) in this game, and this laughable content does not help our cause.

 

You feel that S&V HM is very easy and I agree (even though most people won't think the same) but you have to consider that this operation is going to be available in 2 more modes, if they make the HM very hard, the Nim would be really challenging (doable by like 1 or 2 % of the players), and I let you imagine the next difficulty.

 

I personally don't think they will make the same mistakes again about the time we're going to wait before next content, they made really good improvements in development rate last months.

"Real players" interested in Star Wars will find many things to do waiting for this content. Feel free to find something else somwhere else which correspond with your expectations.

 

We all agree that maths shows 16HM is easier than 8HM but, maths don't take care that 16 players running to reach stones with aoe damages on the head is harder to organize that 8 players doing same thing (I have plenty of examples).

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What two more modes? Beyond HM there is NiM, and beyond NiM there is ... super-duper NiM? Care to share your insights into two additional modes waiting for us anon? And fyi, there is absolutely no indication BW has improved in delivering raiding content, S&V HM is the easiest content so far, so I have no clue where you get the impression that things have improved or will improve in the near future. The dps requirements for Styrak 16m HM are absolutely ridiculous, you can do it with 13 people wearing Arkanian gear or less ... why oh why did they release the new HM raiding content with such low requirements? BW wisdom never ceases to amaze me.

 

I highly doubt achievement hunting and seeker droid scouring will occupy "real" SWTOR players for months, but hey, you can maintain your illusion. My guild will try to spice things up a bit by actually running Ops for achievements, maybe even finally tackle Dreadtooth 10 stacks (provided the numbers are there), but I highly doubt the inevitable mass exodus will be prevented by these "fun" activities when everyone is running around in BiS gear, oneshotting encounters with their eyes closed.

 

offtopic: I am irked that they separated achi based on 16m and 8m, WoW stopped doing that with Cata and it worked fine, no idea why they decided to do that here, just confusing in the end, not to mention lots of guilds are being given the middle finger here (because finding a stable 16m Ops group in this game is definitely not something that should be considered as given); HOWEVER, I am pleased that the "real" achi can only be found in 8 man NiM - survived and timed runs, so that's pretty cool.

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Drussy, there is only one more mode: nightmare - the confusion comes from the split between 8 and 16 (so 2 more modes would be 8 NiM and 16 NiM).

 

To everyone: You are only comparing Styrak - and you are only really comparing one or two mechanics. There are 8 images to split up and kill instead of 4 in 16 man. Even if the enrage timer is longer in 16 - I'm not so sure 8 or 16 guilds are hitting enrage on many fights so it seems rather irrelevant. I'm willing to admit that the Styrak fight is probably a little easier in 16 vs 8, but it isn't all that significant a difference - you cant just say, oh well the enrage timer is X amount longer therefore the fight is that much harder.

 

Also, I'm glad that S+V HM is easier this time around - everyone needs to do a lot of farming to get back to BiS - and without crafting it will take more time than normal. Not to mention, I find the operation to be a lot of fun and really well polished, which is considerably more valuable than difficulty for a hard mode (I'll repeat the sentiment, that for a really good guild, Nightmare should be the only challenge). Besides that, Nightmare is a lot closer than you think.

 

Also, to say EC NiM tanks are easier in 16m after the nerfs, "got hit with the nerfbat," is ridiculously wrong. EC NiM tanks are still way harder in 16 than in 8, or at least they were before 2.0 - I'm not going to continue arguing about Styrak or S+V, but I'd argue you on this.

 

Anyway, I've said my piece, I won't respond here again.

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Drussy, there is only one more mode: nightmare - the confusion comes from the split between 8 and 16 (so 2 more modes would be 8 NiM and 16 NiM).

 

French traduction of the patch note made it confused in my opinion :o but now you're explaining it, seems evident.

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Drussy, there is only one more mode: nightmare - the confusion comes from the split between 8 and 16 (so 2 more modes would be 8 NiM and 16 NiM).

 

To everyone: You are only comparing Styrak - and you are only really comparing one or two mechanics. There are 8 images to split up and kill instead of 4 in 16 man. Even if the enrage timer is longer in 16 - I'm not so sure 8 or 16 guilds are hitting enrage on many fights so it seems rather irrelevant. I'm willing to admit that the Styrak fight is probably a little easier in 16 vs 8, but it isn't all that significant a difference - you cant just say, oh well the enrage timer is X amount longer therefore the fight is that much harder.

 

Also, I'm glad that S+V HM is easier this time around - everyone needs to do a lot of farming to get back to BiS - and without crafting it will take more time than normal. Not to mention, I find the operation to be a lot of fun and really well polished, which is considerably more valuable than difficulty for a hard mode (I'll repeat the sentiment, that for a really good guild, Nightmare should be the only challenge). Besides that, Nightmare is a lot closer than you think.

 

Also, to say EC NiM tanks are easier in 16m after the nerfs, "got hit with the nerfbat," is ridiculously wrong. EC NiM tanks are still way harder in 16 than in 8, or at least they were before 2.0 - I'm not going to continue arguing about Styrak or S+V, but I'd argue you on this.

 

Anyway, I've said my piece, I won't respond here again.

 

I accounted for the images and other factors in my breakdown in my post above. The math appears the same for other bosses that I have compared. It seems you only need to do 1500-1700 dps max in 16m HM for all bosses. In 8m HM it varies between 1800-2450. Math don't lie...16m is much easier.

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Nippon its much easier on 16 this time around. Only fight that might be more challenging is olok and the only factor there is the amount of traders that come down that need to be CC'd.

 

There is little to no dps check in 16 and its quite sad. This reigns true for the llama boss on 16/8 HM, the dps check on 16 is non existent while in 8 you need actuall dps.

 

I'd say guilds that can't clear S&V HM or are real close but hit enrage would walk over 16 man if given 8 more equally skilled players or cloned their current players

 

Has nothing to do with mechanics, its more the fact you don't need nearly as much dps in 16.

Edited by JDotter
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Nippon its much easier on 16 this time around. Only fight that might be more challenging is olok and the only factor there is the amount of traders that come down that need to be CC'd.

 

There is little to no dps check in 16 and its quite sad. This reigns true for the llama boss on 16/8 HM, the dps check on 16 is non existent while in 8 you need actuall dps.

 

I'd say guilds that can't clear S&V HM or are real close but hit enrage would walk over 16 man if given 8 more equally skilled players or cloned their current players

 

Has nothing to do with mechanics, its more the fact you don't need nearly as much dps in 16.

 

I want to pick up on this.

 

I've done the entire raid in both 8 and 16. Never hit an enrage in either setting. I mean, we're talking about enrages here as if people in 8 are hitting enrages. They're not. Good raid groups just don't hit enrages.

 

I have a lot of reservations about the claims being made. How do we know the exact enrage timers when no one is hitting them? How do we know the calculations are correct? All I see are the final numbers with no work being shown.

 

I don't get particularly hung up on the enrages either. Why? If you're a good raid team you are not going to hit enrage in this content regardless if you're 8 or 16. When it comes to hard mode level it is no secret that the enrage timers are easier on 16. This has been the case since the game launched. What makes 16 inherently harder is the increased tank and raid damage, the increased coordination from double the players, and filling out the raid with twice as many competent players.

 

None of which has been refuted in these discussions.

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I want to pick up on this.

 

I've done the entire raid in both 8 and 16. Never hit an enrage in either setting. I mean, we're talking about enrages here as if people in 8 are hitting enrages. They're not. Good raid groups just don't hit enrages.

 

I have a lot of reservations about the claims being made. How do we know the exact enrage timers when no one is hitting them? How do we know the calculations are correct? All I see are the final numbers with no work being shown.

 

I don't get particularly hung up on the enrages either. Why? If you're a good raid team you are not going to hit enrage in this content regardless if you're 8 or 16. When it comes to hard mode level it is no secret that the enrage timers are easier on 16. This has been the case since the game launched. What makes 16 inherently harder is the increased tank and raid damage, the increased coordination from double the players, and filling out the raid with twice as many competent players.

 

None of which has been refuted in these discussions.

 

As has been said repeatedly, calculations were made, you might want to read up on that. Enrage timer for 8m in 8 min, and around 11min for 16m. And a lot of 8m Ops groups were hitting enrage timer on Styrak the first week, no idea where you got the info that noone was hitting the enrage timer ... if noone was hitting enrage timer, then why are we even talking about it so often, huh? Logic! It was the only boss that was sort of wake-up call for damage dealers.

Edited by Krewel
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SpaceWolves S&V 8MAN HM: CLEARED

 

GUILD: SPACEWOLVES

SERVER: TOMB OF FREEDON NADD (EU)

TIMEZONE: GMT + 2 (summer time)

 

 

DASH'ROODE: 04/17/2013 - 11:57 pm

kill pic: http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/203/screenshot2013041723575.jpg

achievement: http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7089/screenshot2013042302193.jpg

TITAN 6: 04/18/2013 - 01:03 AM

kill pic: http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/7182/screenshot2013041801033.jpg

achievement: http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7226/screenshot2013042302194.jpg

THRASHER: 04/21/2013 - 11:49 PM

kill pic: http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2832/screenshot2013042123495.jpg

achievement: http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/1182/screenshot2013042302080.jpg

OPERATIONS CHIEF: 04/22/2013 - 12:22 AM

kill pic:http://imageshack.us/f/15/screenshot2013042200221.jpg/

achievement:http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/9372/screenshot2013042302075.jpg

OLOK THE SHADOW: 04/22/2013 - 12:48 AM

kill pic: http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/305/screenshot2013042200483.jpg

achievement: http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9013/screenshot2013042302200.jpg

CARTEL WARLORDS: 04/22/2013 - 10:32 PM

kill pic: http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/9752/screenshot2013042222325.jpg

achievement: http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/7226/screenshot2013042302194.jpg

DREAD MASTER STYRAK: 04/22/2013 - 11:51 PM

kill pic: http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/8223/screenshot2013042223510.jpg

achievement: http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/9372/screenshot2013042302075.jpg

 

 

Arendil, SpaceWolves Guildmaster

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As has been said repeatedly, calculations were made, you might want to read up on that. Enrage timer for 8m in 8 min, and around 11min for 16m. And a lot of 8m Ops groups were hitting enrage timer on Styrak the first week, no idea where you got the info that noone was hitting the enrage timer ... if noone was hitting enrage timer, then why are we even talking about it so often, huh? Logic! It was the only boss that was sort of wake-up call for damage dealers.

 

Someone writing "the timer is 8 minutes" and the "timer is 11 minutes" is not proof that's the enrage timer.

 

And sorry, but most groups are not hitting the enrage.

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Then time it for yourself and you'll have empirical proof? Most groups who were progressing only hit the roadblock with the enrage timer on the last boss for a day or two, otherwise it was smooth sailing for all bosses. Check out the rest of the thread, maybe. If you only went with 16m in the first week, then of course it was so smooth the enrage on Styrak was impossible to hit, but 8m guilds that went with 61-63 gear (and some Arkanian pieces) quickly felt the tight dps check. Edited by Krewel
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Then time it for yourself and you'll have empirical proof? Most groups who were progressing only hit the roadblock with the enrage timer on the last boss for a day or two, otherwise it was smooth sailing for all bosses. Check out the rest of the thread, maybe. If you only went with 16m in the first week, then of course it was so smooth the enrage on Styrak was impossible to hit, but 8m guilds that went with 61-63 gear (and some Arkanian pieces) quickly felt the tight dps check.

 

Three words: burden of proof.

 

Of course you're going to hit an enrage with 61-63 gear. You will hit the enrage in 61-63 gear in 8 and 16. But if you're in a mix of 63, 66, 69, and 72s -- which everyone outside of the OMG WE HAVE TO DO IT FIRST is doing -- then you won't hit an enrage at all. So, again, that doesn't make it easier or harder. Any competent raid team who is adequately geared for the content will not hit enrages.

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Three words: burden of proof.

 

Of course you're going to hit an enrage with 61-63 gear. You will hit the enrage in 61-63 gear in 8 and 16. But if you're in a mix of 63, 66, 69, and 72s -- which everyone outside of the OMG WE HAVE TO DO IT FIRST is doing -- then you won't hit an enrage at all. So, again, that doesn't make it easier or harder. Any competent raid team who is adequately geared for the content will not hit enrages.

 

Don't forget other factors such as dc's, deaths, random bugs. First week we did it we hit the enrage with a few % left while in our DG in 8m. Deaths mistakes or dc's have resulted during these fights and this is how we know the time on enrage. If you would like to see proof you can watch the DnT SWTOR stream @ http://www.twitch.tv/fridge_sa. I believe we archived our first kill and you can see us hit the enrage at 8m in. As for 16m I believe someone did that on the PTS but I do not have the video. We do know however that in 16m guilds are going up to 11 min without seeing the enrage so its at least 11 mins.

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Three words: burden of proof.

 

Of course you're going to hit an enrage with 61-63 gear. You will hit the enrage in 61-63 gear in 8 and 16. But if you're in a mix of 63, 66, 69, and 72s -- which everyone outside of the OMG WE HAVE TO DO IT FIRST is doing -- then you won't hit an enrage at all. So, again, that doesn't make it easier or harder. Any competent raid team who is adequately geared for the content will not hit enrages.

 

In 16m you still require only two tanks, only one gets pulled into the nightmare ... so yeah, significantly easier. When a healer gets into the nightmare on 8m right before the dragon-jumping phase, it is much touger to compensate than on 16m, same goes for any dps that gets pulled right before the burn phase. You're preaching to the choir about this being easy content, I'm just saying Styrak was the only boss that wasn't a complete pushover when 8m Ops groups tried to kill him as fast as possible (it was the only fight where we actually had to use the new adrenals in the first week). The difference between 8min and 11min enrage timer is significant in and of itself. You will find many people reporting in this section of the forum about hitting enrage on 8m, but I haven't seen anyone reporting that on 16m.

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