something to note about dps attacking the tank's target.

from what I've experienced personally, SWTOR is unique in how the trash pulls work. in most MMO's I've played - you attack tanks target, because otherwise, you pull aggro and as a dps - you are not supposed to. likewise, some tanks (at least me before hounding the forums, but I doubt I'm unique) may think that they need to try and grab everything and end up holding nothing.

it is especially ingrained if you played WoW.

there are several possible solutions to this issue

1. tell dps that they need to kill weak mobs first.

2. run to the tank, in hope that their AoE might pick up the mob beating on you (only really works with melee mobs)

3. if you have CC of your own - even if its just 4 second stun - use it on a strongest mob attacking you and let people know you have stuff on you.

if you are healing, maintaining your resource, keeping tank and yourself up, first and foremost, but not neglecting dps? its not your fault if things go south. unless you die because you stood in bad, its not your fault that you died. sometimes, even if you are super amazingly talented healer with best possible gear, there's still nothing you can do to salvage a pull.

@Jeweledleah, I've had a few people help me understand the difference in other MMOs, and I believe I've got most of it.

One question I have is, in WOW (or whatever) how does healer aggro work? In TOR, heals add threat to every mob. Does that not happen in WOW? If the tank and dps are only attacking one mob at a time, what keeps the rest of the mobs off the healer?

The TL;DR version of this is correct. Healers pull aggro from everything, your DPS didn't hit the stuff the tank couldn't pick up so it killed you. You can try your aggro dump, but it probably won't work.

Exactly and here's the biggest tip I can ever give.

DO NOT start healing before or just on the start of the fight. Laying down your AoE or even your trauma probe procing on first hit WILL draw aggro to you. Wait just like the DPS for the tank to actually put a hit on the mobs before you start healing. Sage bubbles don't count, spam those bubbles like crazy, but anything that provides a heal will build aggro.

I've seen so many healers lay down their AoE heals or HoTs before the fight starts and wonder why they get their faces chewed off.

Read my statement, I said DURING TRASH PULLS WITH MULTIPLE MOBS, the tank can't keep aggro on everything so of course the healer is going to pull aggro unless he is guarded. A good tank will use a AOE taunt to grab the mobs attention but unless the healer is guarded he will just pull ALL the trash to him... A DPS is attacking ONE target so if he gets the aggro of this one mob no biggy if the DPS is any good he will have this trash mob dead in no time flat... The healer on the other hand being pummeled by 4-5 mobs is not going to last long.

 

I've played a Tank, Healer and DPS in HM Asastion and Nightmare Denova, I do believe i have a bit more knowledge then a person who only has played a DPS.

 

Not to mention how are you going to guard ALL the DPS ?!? you only have one guard, The ONLY time you guard a DPS is during the Boss fight to keep him from pulling off of you PERIOD...

Sorry mate, don't care what you've run or what difficultly, you're doing it wrong.

It is entirely possible for one tank to keep aggroing on multiple mobs, even if they're not grouped up. If a tank can't do this, they suck. It doesn't take much to throw a Project at a stray mob or cycle targets to maintain aggro, and this of course only counts for when you have absolutely zero CCs.

I have NEVER allowed my healer to die by doing my job as tank. I've derped it sure but have always been able to pick it up next time. Why? Because I think about my damn pulls rather than just rushing in. I CC what I can, I pull in stray mobs or push them together. It's called, you know, tanking!

And I have NEVER placed guard on a healer. I have this argument with them and other Ops groups all the time. Not only should they never need it (idiot sages putting their AoE heal down before I pull aside) but putting it on a DPS means they can do a bucketload more damage without having to worry about pulling.

Guards on DPS, always

@Jeweledleah, I've had a few people help me understand the difference in other MMOs, and I believe I've got most of it.

 

One question I have is, in WOW (or whatever) how does healer aggro work? In TOR, heals add threat to every mob. Does that not happen in WOW? If the tank and dps are only attacking one mob at a time, what keeps the rest of the mobs off the healer?

there was another great post here explaining the differences in detail, but basically, healer threat works pretty much the same way. what different is the number of trash mobs in a pull, their strength, as well as their location. they are grouped very tightly together, all of them are elite and generally - tank's AoE keeps enough threat on mob not being attacked, to keep them of the healers. but if DPS attack the mob that is not being primarily tanked, high enough dps will pull threat and they are much harder to heal.

that said, on my operative, I tend to keep the probes rolling on a tank at all times. I do that for couple of reasons. it gives me a comfortable cushion, so that I'm not left scrambling to pick tank's health and it builds my tactical advantage stacks, allowing me to control my resources better. but my operative is still leveling, so I may change my tactics once she hits 50 and hardmodes.

at least its easier with sorc/sage. I don't believe shields cause any healing aggro, but they provide the same cushion nonetheless.

edited. personal preference for guard is melee dps. they tend to be the biggest aggro junkies, and guard actually makes them marginally easier to heal.

Groovy, thanks.

As a note, I can confirm the bubbles will draw aggro if cast after the fight has begun, but not if they're pre-cast.

I keep seeing lately both DPS focusing on the tank's main target, and leaving the rest of the mobs free to do whatever. Kind of wish the Tionese gear came with a "how to" guide.

Indeed.

People should be focusing more on how not to suck at the game instead of whining about how some kids are editing their combat logs.

Groovy, thanks.

 

As a note, I can confirm the bubbles will draw aggro if cast after the fight has begun, but not if they're pre-cast.

ah, that makes sense. I usually precast them before pull (old WoW habit from playing a discipline priest in Wrath of the Lich king expansion) and haven't had any issues yet. they do give me a few seconds where I don't feel any need to heal though, certainly helps with avoiding healing aggro.

It is most likely a newbie tank. Most newbie tanks are not knowledgeable of threat mechanics and will likely fail to generate enough threat to sustain aggro on enough mobs. A mob decides to single-target the player with the highest amount of threat at the time of his attack. Threat is generated by damage and healing. The Tank's biggest responsibility is to maintain threat on as many mobs as possible while staying alive.

Although tanks do not do as much damage as dps or as much healing as healers, Their abilities increase the amount of threat their attacks do. Newbie tanks should know this and open with the highest amount of threat they can in the first 10 sec or so. Now, Tanks are equipped with emergency or situational abilities called "taunts." They have one taunt that affects a single-target and one taunt that affects multiple targets. Taunts do two things:

1. They put you a percentage above the highest threat so you draw aggro.

2. They make the target attack you only for 6 sec.

A good tank knows when to use his taunts. Many fights have instances where you will need to use an aoe taunt. The best way to ensure aoe aggro is:

1. Tell your party to hold off attacks for a few sec

2. Spam your aoe abilities for a few sec

3. Aoe Taunt.

This will ensure you are on top of the aggro table, because your taunt actually multiplies your threat

Single target threat is easier to manage. The first thing a tank should do is put a guard on the best dps to decrease his threat. Second, he should pull the boss and spam his highest threat abilities. If someone "pulls" the boss, just throw out a taunt and your aggro should remain on top the rest of the fight, disregarding tank swaps and aggro drops.

Read my statement, I said DURING TRASH PULLS WITH MULTIPLE MOBS, the tank can't keep aggro on everything so of course the healer is going to pull aggro unless he is guarded.

I'm sorry, but I play healers and DPS, and guarding the healer is NOT going to stop them from getting agro on trash mobs. Healer threat is so low in this game anyway, the ONLY mobs healers will pull are things that are not taunted, CCd, or being hit by a tank or DPS. Guard REDUCES threat, it does NOT ELIMINATE it. If a healer is pulling a trash mob, it is because nobody else has done anything to it. A healer with 100 threat on the mob is still going to pull it just as well if they had 200 threat.

To the OP, that pull can be quite hard. A couple things to help: Start out of sight of the mobs. Do not heal anyone until their health drops below 60%. Do NOT put trauma probe on the tank or anyone else until you know the group is decent and not going to leave you tanking the rest of the pull. I consider trauma probe to be a particular kind of evil, since the tank starts the pull, takes the first hit from the mobs which causes TP to heal, which generates instant agro on you from everything the tank did NOT hit.

Read my statement, I said DURING TRASH PULLS WITH MULTIPLE MOBS, the tank can't keep aggro on everything so of course the healer is going to pull aggro unless he is guarded. A good tank will use a AOE taunt to grab the mobs attention but unless the healer is guarded he will just pull ALL the trash to him... A DPS is attacking ONE target so if he gets the aggro of this one mob no biggy if the DPS is any good he will have this trash mob dead in no time flat... The healer on the other hand being pummeled by 4-5 mobs is not going to last long.

 

I've played a Tank, Healer and DPS in HM Asastion and Nightmare Denova, I do believe i have a bit more knowledge then a person who only has played a DPS.

 

Not to mention how are you going to guard ALL the DPS ?!? you only have one guard, The ONLY time you guard a DPS is during the Boss fight to keep him from pulling off of you PERIOD...

Plenty of people have pointed out where your argument doesn't hold up, but essentially reducing threat on the only person currently pulling aggro isn't going to change that they will get attacked. If I was going to generate 20 threat on a mob with my heal and guard drops that by 5%, I still have 19 more threat than anyone else since they haven't hit it yet.

If a jugg tank leaps in and smashes all 5 NPCs, none of them will go for the healer because the tank threat will already be too high. The only time a healer will really be pulling aggro is on a mob that was not hit by anyone. You can't expect the tank to pick up everything every pull. Packs are too spread out and there aren't enough AOE abilities to get them all. That's why the tank should pick up the most dangerous mobs and let the DPS pick up the stragglers themselves.

If you truly have experience in different roles in the top operations, you would know that there are very few times to guard healers. After being sucked into TFB for example requires taunt swapping and healer guarding at the start since you will do almost no damage to the boss itself based on the fight mechanics. One of the few times that healer threat actually outweighs DPS threat. Outside of mechanics like this, healers should never have a guard.

Read my statement, I said DURING TRASH PULLS WITH MULTIPLE MOBS, the tank can't keep aggro on everything so of course the healer is going to pull aggro unless he is guarded. A good tank will use a AOE taunt to grab the mobs attention but unless the healer is guarded he will just pull ALL the trash to him... A DPS is attacking ONE target so if he gets the aggro of this one mob no biggy if the DPS is any good he will have this trash mob dead in no time flat... The healer on the other hand being pummeled by 4-5 mobs is not going to last long.

 

I've played a Tank, Healer and DPS in HM Asastion and Nightmare Denova, I do believe i have a bit more knowledge then a person who only has played a DPS.

 

Not to mention how are you going to guard ALL the DPS ?!? you only have one guard, The ONLY time you guard a DPS is during the Boss fight to keep him from pulling off of you PERIOD...

/facepalm

Basically this is also a laziness/rushing thing. That first pull is one of the biggest and baddest in the instance, if you have no out of combat CC's and you have a group of people screaming SKIIIIPP GOGOGOG at you as a tank you just assume they're well geared enough to handle it. I will charge in and get some AOE on the big droid and the normals on the right, then I turn around and pick the 2 Sith of the healer, hopefully by that time one of the DPS will CC the second big droid and maybe pull enough aggro on one of the Sith guys to keep them of the healer.

In short: its not your fault, but after one wipe you should really have a good talk to the DPS or tank to take it slower on that pack and CC/

Hello all,

Sorry I haven't replied to this thread - real life getting in the way. But thanks all for both encouragement, tips, and insight. Have healed several HMs since, including FE, and had no problems. Probably just a bad group for one or more of any of the reasons above. I also think, as others have said, now that a lot of the folks running in group finder are overgeared and grinding coms (I do the same, of course, on my dps main) there's a tendancy to get overconfidant/lazy. And that first pull in FE can be tricky anyway.

Anyway - thanks for the input!