I need to point out a few things. people with an average IQ will understand this:

 

ASSASSIN DPS SPECS WERE

NEVER OVERPOWERED

 

-23/1/17 had a incredible amount of utility, damage, and survivability.-This has been nerfed with 2.0

 

-Deception and Madness were never OP. Whoever thought they were, you have some serious l2p issues (unless you're a merc of course)

 

-This whole "Tank sins are OP" crap came from sins using dps gear in tank stance/spec.

 

Now, onto the biggest points here.

 

Darkness hybrids, like 23/1/17 have lost a load of utility. Bioware has taken away instant whirlwind, out of stealth spike, and the damage has been lowered too. Maul (darkness) has now been moved to conspirator's cloak, which is a weak talent, and was intended for pve tanking. Anybody who has played the spec before knows that mauls don't proc often, and even if it does crit, it's a 4k hit, which isn't saying much. It's a 10% chance and has an internal cooldown of 15 seconds with that one point, so consider this, with 30% crit chance, a duplicity maul proc crit has a very low chance of doing more damage than trash, which also leads into my second point.

 

Energized Shocks. These may be quite powerful with recklessness, but even fully power stacked, the most this will ever crit for is around 4.2k-ish on a geared player, and with the expertise pickup on map. Without recklessness this shock is nothing, 2.5k crits are quite small compared to 20k health pools of most players, and can be healed through like a breeze. The only time a darkness sin will have burst is with 3x Harnessed Darkness force lightning crits, energized shocks, maul, and death field (if specced) which is a 3-person AoE nuke, which frankly, doesn't hit "Insanely Hard" as most people think. An average death field crit for me would be around 3.3k, and doesn't crit as often as you'd want. The majority of this "burst" is single target and requires some luck to take down a non recruit geared player quickly.

 

Survivability-

These darkness hybrids aren't as tough as you'd really think. In general, they're squishy, unless you have a guarded pocket healer and have people taunted. This part is what I believe gets most people off about "OP" as they can do good damage and still get protection, but really, it's the utility that is what gives them the survivability. They have enough cc to keep multiple people off a healer and even kill them, but a smart person would know that sins can't sustain themselves through self heals, and without cooldowns they're just as squishy as marauders, smash juggs, and powertechs. To be realistic, force shroud, deflection, and force cloak are the 3 abilties that the assassin can use defensively.

 

In all reality, assassins/shadows are the ultimate kings of 1v1, but in a realistic group scenario, have no other role than guarding healers and using cc abilties. There is barely any damage output whatsoever. This is why they are the ideal node guards and why they're "OP"

 

Now nerfs-

 

Madness:

 

Madness has lost duplicity, instant whirlwind, the melee bonus damage on shock, and survivability as crit diminishing returns have caused self heals to proc around 1/5th of the time, while previously it was 1/3rd of the time. Madness has also lost utility and burst. What has happened here, is that madness is officially the boring as hell tab dot spec. Not to mention it has lost an incredible amount of sustained dps in pve.

 

Deception:

 

Deception is a personal favourite spec of mine, and has taken a really big hit for pvp, as the spec is now centered around maul. While maul is a great ability, it's also the only real way we have to burst a target down, since discharge and shock hit like wet noodles and again, with crit diminishing returns, cannot put any pressure on the targets due to new mitigation changes, like force/tech attacks being able to be shielded, and since it really only has 1 high hitting ability, which is maul, this is also a loss for pve content as assassins were already near the bottom of the dps food chain and now are lost too far to be even worth taking into a raid environment, when a powertech does nearly 30% more dps with this new hybrid build.

 

Darkness:

 

Instant whirlwind is now gone, duplicity is gone, the class has lost out of stealth spike without again investing a large amount of points to get the talent, and has also taken a 20% hit to armor rating.

 

So to summarize:

 

-Our dps trees have been crippled, our tanking tree has AGAIN been buffed, and due to people not knowing how the class works, have imbalanced the class, yet again. I implore you, do assassin dps specs REALLY need nerfing? It would help to do some research on the class rather than just call for nerfs, just because you see something happen (Like a perfect storm assault from an assassin that destroys you) that does not mean you can accuse everything of being OP. It would definitely help to learn what aspects of the class are OP, rather than just nerfing what isn't, and essential for the class to have some viability.

 

My suggestion (Very Important People Read This):

 

Eliminate the damage/utility potential of all darkness based hybrids (Done by restricting certain talents to stances, like unstoppable for shien form, but not crippling the TANKING ASPECT), return instant whirlwind and duplicty back, and give unearthed knowledge back to madness. Lock duplicity to surging charge/lightning charge, and instant cast whirlwind back to lightning charge (let the return of instant whirlwind apply to sorcs as well, but tie it to something in the tree to avoid any ridiculous hybrid specs)

 

Hopefully people understand this..

People seem fine with the fact that the dps specs have been effectively removed from the game and most hated the hybrids stemming from the tanking tree when the fact is more hybrids will be around, the majority coming from the tanking tree since its the only one that did not receive nerfs.

 

 

All I wanted was madness to remain the same, not a nerf...why nerf it no one played it anyways:(

People seem fine with the fact that the dps specs have been effectively removed from the game and most hated the hybrids stemming from the tanking tree when the fact is more hybrids will be around, the majority coming from the tanking tree since its the only one that did not receive nerfs.

 

 

All I wanted was madness to remain the same, not a nerf...why nerf it no one played it anyways:(

 

I know.... R.I.P. Madness you will be missed forever.

The only thing SINS were ever OP at was 1v1. I think they are still at the top of that, and these nerfs did nothing to change the "vanish / sap / Seethe" overpowered heal aspect of 1v1, which is the only thing that really made them unbeatable in that regard (at least to a marauder).

 

And hey, if this game is not based around 1v1, that's fine. I'm content with not being the top 1v1 class, so long as my class is still viable overall in rated pvp, which it is. The things they nerfed, I was kind of left scratching my head saying "this needed nerfed?". Kind of like the healing nerf for Annihilation, the already most underused spec.

The only thing SINS were ever OP at was 1v1. I think they are still at the top of that, and these nerfs did nothing to change the "vanish / sap / Seethe" overpowered heal aspect of 1v1, which is the only thing that really made them unbeatable in that regard (at least to a marauder).

 

And hey, if this game is not based around 1v1, that's fine. I'm content with not being the top 1v1 class, so long as my class is still viable overall in rated pvp, which it is. The things they nerfed, I was kind of left scratching my head saying "this needed nerfed?". Kind of like the healing nerf for Annihilation, the already most underused spec.

 

The problem is, that It never was. I'm talking about dps assassins being viable in multiple environments, not just 1v1s

Well...people got what they wanted. DPS Shadows/Sins are horrid for both pvp and pve and Tanks are still "tough" but will have no hitting power unless we go hybrid for an extra bit of damage.

 

Well done QQers and Well done EAWare!

I agree 100% tho i will say this i probably am wrong but the changes to deception doesn't feel like a nerf in a pve point of view. From a pve point of a view just fills like the other classes got buffed more i still do about 2100-2200 dps on the pts with the starter gear with stim/adrenal and DG relics seems decent to me even tho other classes do more but it does feel like a nerf in pvp for sure due to the lack of burst now

2200 in basic gear? I'd like to see a parse of that for sure, but I'm not really buying it when there are full BiS arkanian sins only doing 2200 dps in pve, and barely being able to perform any decent burst in pvp.

2200 in basic gear? I'd like to see a parse of that for sure, but I'm not really buying it when there are full BiS arkanian sins only doing 2200 dps in pve, and barely being able to perform any decent burst in pvp.

 

well it's more between 2100-2200 think last time i parsed was around 2140-2160's something like that but just alot easier to say 2100-2200 it's been about 5 days since last i did a parse i could do a parse again later could be i just got lucky crits or something

I think the myths came from this scenario:

 

Assassin pops Force Shroud

 

Whiners: "None of my skills are damaging him!!!11!!111eleventyone"

 

I have no problems on my Gunslinger with an Assassin in the open where I can see him and his buffs. I know when to not shoot him. Now when he gets the jump on me, different story. I think it is largely a l2p issue.

The problem is, that It never was. I'm talking about dps assassins being viable in multiple environments, not just 1v1s

 

The last dueling tourney we had on Harbinger was won by a juggernaut in some jug hybrid dueling spec. He beat the best assassins on the server quite easily, and I can promise you those assassins are not bads.

I think the myths came from this scenario:

 

Assassin pops Force Shroud

 

Whiners: "None of my skills are damaging him!!!11!!111eleventyone"

 

I have no problems on my Gunslinger with an Assassin in the open where I can see him and his buffs. I know when to not shoot him. Now when he gets the jump on me, different story. I think it is largely a l2p issue.

 

90% of the issues brought up in this forum boil down to that same "l2p issue". It seems, though, that those in charge of class balance listen more to them than bothering to actually play their game and see for themselves. So all we get is nerfs (and a few buffs) that ruin the balance more with each new patch.

The last dueling tourney we had on Harbinger was won by a juggernaut in some jug hybrid dueling spec. He beat the best assassins on the server quite easily, and I can promise you those assassins are not bads.

 

I realize that it's always up to player skill but I'm just asking for dps sins to have a fair chance in group pvp here, rather than being relegated to node guard in a hybrid tank spec. It's not fun for me and obviously not fun for the poor sob that has to duel for hours on end with the tank assassin there.

You guys need a girlfriend.

You guys need a girlfriend.

 

Says the guy who bothered to post on the pvp forums in an MMO website.

I have a wife and when we sit down to play swtor at night I entertain her with the weirdness that is this forum. Girls like funny guys and this forum is where I get my best material.

All I wanted was madness to remain the same, not a nerf...why nerf it no one played it anyways:(

 

That's the whole point.

 

As someone else pointed out in a thread a while ago, and more eloquently than I will do now -- they keep buffing the op classes, and nerfing the less played classes due to their reliance on metrics. Simple as that.

 

Classes that are easy to play and are played by a lot of people generally push the averages down and make the classes like rage warriors seem less than amazing. And the specs that are played rarely, but usually with a much higher degree of skill, like deception or madness, show as high performers. The few that play them are basically hurting themselves by playing the class well.

Nothing was really OP about hyrbid tanks before the nerf either. Lots of utility sure, but no where even close to being as tanky as a real tank specced and geared for it. Also the dps was no where near a real dps class.

 

The truth is that the spec was nerfed because it was a hybrid outperforming a pure and Bioware didn't like that. That's the reason the dps trees got changed, because you spec into them certain ways to get unintended benefits. Even when the benefits aren't OP, they are still unintended and therefore changed.

 

Stupid really to change things just because you don't like how they are achieved but it's just the truth. There are absolutely no other explanations as to why they would nerf two already under performing trees. It's basically further proved because they buffed the tank tree in itself and put the best abilites high up in it so that it is best to just go pure.

 

Honestly I have been playing with both pure and tank hybrid with DF on the pts and I really am not sure that it's worth it to even get DF now. To get out of stealth spike, Conspirator's cloak and a reduced force cost death field, you are forced to give up chain shock, avoidance and whatever else you could get and might want by having 3 more points after getting those two abilities Not to mention having wither offers a debuff and lets you cast harnessed darkness much more often.

and without cooldowns they're just as squishy as marauders, smash juggs, and powertechs.

 

oh poor assassins...

That's the whole point.

 

As someone else pointed out in a thread a while ago, and more eloquently than I will do now -- they keep buffing the op classes, and nerfing the less played classes due to their reliance on metrics. Simple as that.

 

Classes that are easy to play and are played by a lot of people generally push the averages down and make the classes like rage warriors seem less than amazing. And the specs that are played rarely, but usually with a much higher degree of skill, like deception or madness, show as high performers. The few that play them are basically hurting themselves by playing the class well.

 

If bioware sees this, then they should know that they can't rely on metrics anymore. Sure one deception assassin tears things up in pvp but there's no relationship between being good and being OP, and mabye if bioware actually played their own game more they'd see how rare good players are in this game (Good players really are rare in this game), rather than bringing unwarranted nerfs to those people who reward themselves by playing the "underdog" spec and actually being able to accomplish things better than those who have rolled with an easymode spec.

This is the truth about shadow/sin only one spec was really viable in pvp it was hybrid tank wearing dps gear. Some of us enjoy playing deception because of how it played even if no one wanted us in rateds or in WZ. We played it because it was fun even when it is so under powered.

 

Now with the changes on PTS a pure tank becomes even more OP and deception becomes even more MEH. When I was a raid leader in my other mmo. I would not want a class that did less dps then any other class in the game. Why bring a dps sin/shadow along when there behind every other class in dps.

 

Not to mention changing the rotation after a year lets add low slash that will help waste more focus.

Scoundrels / operatives cried the most about sins/shadows. They are god mode again in 2.0, sins/shadows will die. Period.

Scoundrels / operatives cried the most about sins/shadows. They are god mode again in 2.0, sins/shadows will die. Period.

 

Not really Scoundrels / operatives will hate the new hybrid tank spec that has come up. As you will just do little to no damage. With 15 stack of dark ward good luck

 

Since shield generators now work on all damage

Edited March 9, 2013 by Neoforcer

Great post.

The only class that needs to be tweaked is sentinel smash. Autocrit is going to be ridiculous with the crit nerf in 2.0

Not really Scoundrels / operatives will hate the new hybrid tank spec that has come up. As you will just do little to no damage. With 15 stack of dark ward good luck

 

Since shield generators now work on all damage

 

Quoted for truth lol

 

I remember this Hypergate where an operative was trying to solo cap MY pylon over and over again. I was in dps gear because I wanted to try every posible builds and its not possible in tank gear. Even in dps gear Dark ward is a godly gift. I was spamming Dark ward when I was not fighting to be 110% its up if the operative get the opener. and SURPRISE Mr.Operative I'm shielding 35% of your attacks and because I am in dps gear I destroy your face with my substained medium burst because my shock cost 26 force and maul cost 25 force and I have a 30% force regen passive.

 

imo full tank in tank or dps gear will be amazing. I cant tell if tank gear will be alot better or not but dps gear is still very good if you have a shield generator.

 

Side note:

 

The amazing part of 2.0 darkness is when conspirator's cloak (face to face maul with force cost reduction) is up and energize too. I shoot my shock for an auto crit then maul and get a new energize proc to re-shock with an auto crit. When maul crit and I have recklessness up and chain shock proc on my 2 shocks and I shield the operative's opener, I have a nerdgasm.

 

Oh and I used wither,got 1 HD stack and the 2nd and 3rd from my shocks to nerdgasm even harder.

 

in other words, the already proclamed OP assassin tree is more OP and the decent and the mediocre trees are now uber terridiocrybadlydead