I guess if the developers decide that healers shouldn't be able to killed 1 on 1 its like that. The way the game is atm I think its like that but not sure, maybe you'll have to ask them?

 

What I am trying to say is that teams are always balanced if you have everything "perfect".

 

Ofc in pugs warzone no 2 players are the same, so 99 procent of the whine on this forum is irrelevant.

 

 

Look at me all going carebear today

Honestly I'd say most of those changes are likely to be PvE oriented. It's not like spamming your usual compliment of fast/instant healing spells has any chance of keeping up with a boss's damage output so the infinite energy while spamming certain heals is a non issue for PvE because any respectable boss will do enough DPS to force you to use your more costly heals.

To a lesser extent, before 2.0 Sages might be a bit too easy to lock up with interrupts, so they gained interrupt immunity the haste CD, and they also have extra fast Salavation (another spell that's commonly interrupted to the point where you might as well not bother trying to cast it). That said, you're basically punishing DPS for being too good at interrupting spells. What should have happened is standardize all interrupts on 12s CD. There's really no reason why certain specs can interrupt twice as often (6s) and it is devastating to a healer. This would make interrupts still powerful but limited in their usage. Instead Bioware's solution to deal with 6s CD interrupts is to make most heals instant cast, uninterruptible, or cast so fast that it might as well be uninterruptible.

You so cute bro.

 

I would say normally in the most mmos one could kill healer 1 on 1 in 2 situations:

 

1. One is some burtsy devil stunlocking class (classy roguish archetypes).

2. In a very long battle healer go out of resource and dies. But this situation needs damage dealer to be able to make good pressure to not let healer to do damage moves only heals, cause obviously healer will outlast damage dealer, and of course it should be possible to dry healer of resource (passively with making him heal non stop and actively using mana drains etc.).

 

In swtor, at least in patch 2.0 we got again situation with infinite resource healers. And people suddenly start thinking of OPness.

 

What changed in heal power departament? Nothing, but now they just always have force - energy. Heat/ammo? May be, may be can be dried, but needs more than 1 on 1 situation.

If you think that Sage/Sorc healers do not have force issues then you've been in games where the sage/sorc has ~zero pressure on him/her.; can't speak to the commando since I do not have one.

Scoundrels/Operatives have no energy issues, healing on one is a joke, but even then burst dps can overcome their healing as long as you are not trying to focus them down while they are being guarded or cross-healed.

Healing is strong, but BURST DPS > BURST HEALING... the ability to heal aoe/pressure damage inflates healing numbers to make it seem like healing is outdistancing dps, ,but that is simply not the case.

Now, a more serious issue is the amount of horrible players who can barely scratch 200-300k damage in a long match, much less utilize interrupts/cc/and focus fire (even in pugs this is fairly simple, just set your focus target and use the acquire focus target keybind..).

Aren't there healers in both "teams" ? Are you one of those guys that can't kill a healer 1 vs 1 ?

Irrelevant post is irrelevant.

The OP states healing is overtuned, whether or not I am dying or killing has no relevance to this thread whatsoever. I posted numbers and you have no facts supporting any argument otherwise, because the numbers support me and the OP. I also mentioned healers can be brought down with good use of cc and focus fire if you had bothered getting some reading comprehension in grade school.

Good troll though.

Irrelevant post is irrelevant.

The OP states healing is overtuned, whether or not I am dying or killing has no relevance to this thread whatsoever. I posted numbers and you have no facts supporting any argument otherwise, because the numbers support me and the OP. I also mentioned healers can be brought down with good use of cc and focus fire if you had bothered getting some reading comprehension in grade school.

 

Good troll though.

I am pretty sure the facts are that you can't kill a good healer 1 vs 1.

I wonder if you ever played a healer yourself ? Without a tank I mean.

Btw, most of the posts on this forum are irrelevant if nobody that can do anything about the game is reading them ...

And and you didn't know wich school I went too in my days, YOUMAD bro? Getting all personal like that ? I am very good in comprehensive reading, your compliment proves that. Thx.

If you think that Sage/Sorc healers do not have force issues then you've been in games where the sage/sorc has ~zero pressure on him/her.; can't speak to the commando since I do not have one.

 

Scoundrels/Operatives have no energy issues, healing on one is a joke, but even then burst dps can overcome their healing as long as you are not trying to focus them down while they are being guarded or cross-healed.

 

Healing is strong, but BURST DPS > BURST HEALING... the ability to heal aoe/pressure damage inflates healing numbers to make it seem like healing is outdistancing dps, ,but that is simply not the case.

/this

Now, a more serious issue is the amount of horrible players who can barely scratch 200-300k damage in a long match, much less utilize interrupts/cc/and focus fire (even in pugs this is fairly simple, just set your focus target and use the acquire focus target keybind..).

the only WZ that is abit tricky in that behaviour is the alderan/civil war WZ as it resets your focus target when ever riding one of those cycles.

First off, I play a tank powertech and a hybrid heal operative.

Generally speaking healing is very powerfull in this game pvp wise.

Operative have mana free infinite probes, they can use their mana to refresh team hots and keep people afloat, they have very good mobility especially with their new "transfer ability" roll, they die very fast under stun.

Sorcerers have excellent anti spike mitigation and great passive/active aoe cc, they never die very fast and can bubble up and sink 10 seconds of dps, meanwhile someone else can heal them back to full, actually completely neglecting the burst and focus effort of ennemy's dps classes and the Cds they burnt to achieve the first spike.

Mercenaries have very good flat mitigation and can soak a lot of damage before they even get into trouble, they feel like they are what you can call "hp bag" that you can punch into forever for no real effect.

All in all for diffrent reasons, downing alone a lone healer is never "fast". that would be okay if it did not stack so well with other healers and "tanks" but more importantly with the "expertise " damage mitigation buff or bolster.

It is difficult for a team to coordonate damage on a running aoe cc spamming healer,

It is even more difficult to coordonate "burst" dps on a healer,

Now when you have two healers, you need to coordonate cc and interrupt on one AND damage AND burstdamage timing on that one you want to down.

But that is not all, add a tank in the mix and you have unkillable healers, and you need to rip the tank apart before while burdening the healers with cc and interrupts at the same time. it is very intresting in a premade vs premade environment, but you can't ask that level of gameplay and coordination to pickup teams.

How many pickup players actually understand you don't have to hit the guy in your face and you should focus on the guy healing him in the background. 50% maybee

How many pickup players understand that even when bashing on a healer, you need to bash the same one as your team mates. 30% maybee

How many pickup players understand that even in that case one need to keep on CCing, interrupting the side healer while the rest of the team focus their damage on the one you kill . 20% maybee

How many pickup players actually understand that when healers have a tank you need to forgo all that is above, keep one guy on interrrupt on both healers, and actually pump the big numbers to shred the tank fist because he is the only one that cannot be protected by his own taunts and his own guard. 5% at best

Even in premades when everybody knows the whole engagement drill

You can't ask a team to retake an objective when downing a trio of tank/healer/hybrid heal-dps takes 1 minute and the repop is 30 seconds, BG are too narrow and mobility through the bg is good enough that any suprise attack is totally pointless making stealth dps class coordonated attacks a forgettable gimmick.

But lets be reasonable, even when things look huge they are not that huge, so my two cents on the subject would be to transform the bolster/expertise "~30% damage reduction" buff into a "~30% endurance buff", this would shift the balance towards "bufferred" survivability instead of "sustained survivability".

I would like to say as well that DoTs and AoE damage are not "that" useless, burst damage is nice, burst damage is necessary, but burst damage is a finishing tool, AoE and DoTs are what puts healers in the ropes because they can't keep up with everything, healers are not that good at AoE healing, They are even worse at mass cleansing,and every gcd they have to put into cleaning / putting back someone on the side at full is a gcd they can't put into keeping someone under focus fire alive. Many players only swear by burst and that is where they are wrong.

When you burn your burst CDs you have to wait another 30seconds/minute before you can pull the trick again,should you be snared or otherwise unable to deliver the whole load of your burst sequence or if your timing was wrong, well....you and the rest of your party loses the ability to kill anyone for those next 30 seconds.

Now if in your team you have someone who can put real dps pressure on everyone at the same time by tab dotting, ae dotting and ae damaging, or simply sustained dps, they create a lot of occasions for bursters to sucessfully finish someone with much less positionning and coordination efforts, tanks can't guard everyone, and they get twice the damage if they guard someone in the same AoE as themselves. healers can't clean dots as fast as dotters spread them and they can't heal pending damage 'cause it has not yet been done, healers can't keep everyone afloat simultaneously and they also have to focus heal to neglect the burst you outpace them and people start to fall.

In conclusion, yes healing is very powerfull, but lets be fair the game is not all that unbalanced, good team work is extremely rewarding and that is what makes premade of goodplayers look like gods when you compare them to apack of average pickup players who already struggle playing properly through a flashpoint.

in my opinion the lasting power is more a problem in bg like voidstar where it is virtually impossible to take an objective even for an excellent team because if the opponent is excellent as well you just can't go forward.

Alderande and novare are less of a problem because as true as it is that it is etremely difficult to recap, it is also very difficult to cap at all in the first place. so the bg revolves around wrestling hard on the "middle" and never allowing the ennemy to cap with as least people as possible as you can manage to actually remain able to perform meaningfull side attacks on they preffered turret ( or actually fend-off their flank attacks ) sucessfully chipping away your victory, or punching the other team off balance with those flank attacks splitting the team to break point and cap the middlepoint for an definitive GG.

I think the shift to the way the damage reduction bolster works would solve that healing issue and increase a bit the usability of stacking endurance.

First off, I play a tank powertech and a hybrid heal operative.

 

Generally speaking healing is very powerfull in this game pvp wise.

 

Operative have mana free infinite probes, they can use their mana to refresh team hots and keep people afloat, they have very good mobility especially with their new "transfer ability" roll, they die very fast under stun.

 

Sorcerers have excellent anti spike mitigation and great passive/active aoe cc, they never die very fast and can bubble up and sink 10 seconds of dps, meanwhile someone else can heal them back to full, actually completely neglecting the burst and focus effort of ennemy's dps classes and the Cds they burnt to achieve the first spike.

 

Mercenaries have very good flat mitigation and can soak a lot of damage before they even get into trouble, they feel like they are what you can call "hp bag" that you can punch into forever for no real effect.

 

All in all for diffrent reasons, downing alone a lone healer is never "fast". that would be okay if it did not stack so well with other healers and "tanks" but more importantly with the "expertise " damage mitigation buff or bolster.

 

It is difficult for a team to coordonate damage on a running aoe cc spamming healer,

It is even more difficult to coordonate "burst" dps on a healer,

Now when you have two healers, you need to coordonate cc and interrupt on one AND damage AND burstdamage timing on that one you want to down.

 

But that is not all, add a tank in the mix and you have unkillable healers, and you need to rip the tank apart before while burdening the healers with cc and interrupts at the same time. it is very intresting in a premade vs premade environment, but you can't ask that level of gameplay and coordination to pickup teams.

 

How many pickup players actually understand you don't have to hit the guy in your face and you should focus on the guy healing him in the background. 50% maybee

How many pickup players understand that even when bashing on a healer, you need to bash the same one as your team mates. 30% maybee

How many pickup players understand that even in that case one need to keep on CCing, interrupting the side healer while the rest of the team focus their damage on the one you kill . 20% maybee

How many pickup players actually understand that when healers have a tank you need to forgo all that is above, keep one guy on interrrupt on both healers, and actually pump the big numbers to shred the tank fist because he is the only one that cannot be protected by his own taunts and his own guard. 5% at best

 

Even in premades when everybody knows the whole engagement drill

You can't ask a team to retake an objective when downing a trio of tank/healer/hybrid heal-dps takes 1 minute and the repop is 30 seconds, BG are too narrow and mobility through the bg is good enough that any suprise attack is totally pointless making stealth dps class coordonated attacks a forgettable gimmick.

 

But lets be reasonable, even when things look huge they are not that huge, so my two cents on the subject would be to transform the bolster/expertise "~30% damage reduction" buff into a "~30% endurance buff", this would shift the balance towards "bufferred" survivability instead of "sustained survivability".

 

I would like to say as well that DoTs and AoE damage are not "that" useless, burst damage is nice, burst damage is necessary, but burst damage is a finishing tool, AoE and DoTs are what puts healers in the ropes because they can't keep up with everything, healers are not that good at AoE healing, They are even worse at mass cleansing,and every gcd they have to put into cleaning / putting back someone on the side at full is a gcd they can't put into keeping someone under focus fire alive. Many players only swear by burst and that is where they are wrong.

 

When you burn your burst CDs you have to wait another 30seconds/minute before you can pull the trick again,should you be snared or otherwise unable to deliver the whole load of your burst sequence or if your timing was wrong, well....you and the rest of your party loses the ability to kill anyone for those next 30 seconds.

 

Now if in your team you have someone who can put real dps pressure on everyone at the same time by tab dotting, ae dotting and ae damaging, or simply sustained dps, they create a lot of occasions for bursters to sucessfully finish someone with much less positionning and coordination efforts, tanks can't guard everyone, and they get twice the damage if they guard someone in the same AoE as themselves. healers can't clean dots as fast as dotters spread them and they can't heal pending damage 'cause it has not yet been done, healers can't keep everyone afloat simultaneously and they also have to focus heal to neglect the burst you outpace them and people start to fall.

 

In conclusion, yes healing is very powerfull, but lets be fair the game is not all that unbalanced, good team work is extremely rewarding and that is what makes premade of goodplayers look like gods when you compare them to apack of average pickup players who already struggle playing properly through a flashpoint.

 

in my opinion the lasting power is more a problem in bg like voidstar where it is virtually impossible to take an objective even for an excellent team because if the opponent is excellent as well you just can't go forward.

 

Alderande and novare are less of a problem because as true as it is that it is etremely difficult to recap, it is also very difficult to cap at all in the first place. so the bg revolves around wrestling hard on the "middle" and never allowing the ennemy to cap with as least people as possible as you can manage to actually remain able to perform meaningfull side attacks on they preffered turret ( or actually fend-off their flank attacks ) sucessfully chipping away your victory, or punching the other team off balance with those flank attacks splitting the team to break point and cap the middlepoint for an definitive GG.

 

I think the shift to the way the damage reduction bolster works would solve that healing issue and increase a bit the usability of stacking endurance.

/like

Not true. Heals and damage are balanced. I had games where the opposing team has 3 healers and 1 tank and 4 DPS, and my team has 7 DPS and 1 tank, and we completely obliterated the opposing team because our DPS were superb.

 

If you lose a game to healers that means the DPS on your team was badly lacking.

 

Contrary to popular belief, playing a good DPS is just as hard as playing a good tank or a good healer. Carnage Marauder is the best healer killing spec, yet how often do you see Carnage in WZs? And how often you see a good Carnage in WZs?

 

Part of playing a good DPS is to learn how to focus fire, but most people don't do it. Heals are not OP, just that DPS need to learn to play better.

I agree with this post. In rateds, where there is meaningfull cc and coordination for kill/cc targets like healers, I feel like it is more balanced now than pre-expansion patch.

For non-rateds, good healers can make a big difference if no one targets them or keeps them in check. But seriously, all it takes is one or two efficient dps to ride a healer with cc/burst damage while dps'ing other targets and grabbing objectives. I don't know if Bioware pays more attention to rateds or non-rateds, but this forum seems to comment more on PUG matches when talking about healers being OP.

I believe that one DPS alone should not be able to completely shut down one healer. Like I said, 2 good dps can really make it hard for even a really good healer to be OP. It isn't too hard for good DPS to rack up damage numbers and kills on other targets while keeping one healer busy with cc because burst damage is still good. Good DPS already know this- they can still cc a healer long enough to kill other targets. Or, one good dps can cc/apply enough pressure to one healer where that healer needs to pay more attention to staying alive and less attention to healing others and grabbing objectives. Mess around with the UI and set your focus, target of target, etc.

For multiple healers, it just takes more coordination. But remember that more healers means less dps and burst on that team. It evens out, or it should even out, for a rated team that has experience. I'm still trying to figure out how close to balanced the game is in rated warzones where people actually coordinate.

For multiple healers, it just takes more coordination. But remember that more healers means less dps and burst on that team. It evens out, or it should even out, for a rated team that has experience. I'm still trying to figure out how close to balanced the game is in rated warzones where people actually coordinate

all you said is kind of true, but in a pug environment.

healer + healer

healer + tank

healer + hybrid healer ( read a caster that remembers he can also heal if needed)

healer + hybrid tank ( read a dps who remembers he can still cast hist taunts without sacrificing any of his gcds)

is beyond the skill of 90% of existing pairs of PUG players to kill. let alone in a timely enough fashion to cap before the rest of the team arrives.

And in some instances I have seen one of those combos (healer + hybrid tank) to keep a whole team of pug ( 6~8 players) in chess right in front of their spawn, so yes those 6 guys need to rework something, but that is how ludicrously efficiently a good teamplaying pair of good player can perform in this game.

Now in a premade environment

a trio including a tank and 2 healers ( even if one is not fully heal specced) is virtually impossible to take down even for a whole team, in a group of 8 you can have 2 of these trios, and on alderande for example you can just slush the fights forever on both side turrets, respawning members will keep you from capping. should you by anychance clip anyone in the trio, he'll be back in no time.

Healers dominating pvp.................erm, why not try a sorcerer one yourself and see how you feel then lol...or a sage if you wish.

sorcerer/operative/merc really they are all the same, and the problem is not really the classes themselves it is how well they stack with other healers, how well they stack with the guard/taunt mechanics, and how well they stack with the "damage reduction" buff of expertise/bolster.

I love the tank mechanics in this game I think it works as intended, when there is a tank people are bound to take him down first (barring he plays properly), because the healers are too costly to kill while he stands around.

changing the "damage reduction" buff of expertise/bolster for an "endurance increase" buff of the same amount would shift "sutained survivability" to "buffered survivability" and would leave the depth of the pvp gameplay ( cc / heal / guard / sustained dps and burst dps) unscathed. it would also make endurance a bit more desirable than it is now.

I think most of us have a healer now & with a little bit of gear, its bad arse. Lets not make out you haven't seen a op or sorc getting focused by 3-4 dps while the healer is just standing there healing through it and still getting a \wave in.

Plus when u kick a spell/heal getting casted, it's not like other MMO's and stopping a spells being cast in that tree, they just use another heal.

I don't think they should nerf any healing class or abilities, because that would effect PVE , but healing ATM is to much in PVP. No one likes playing when no one dies or very little & of course alot of healers are going to say there fine or need a buff, but it does kill good competition

So I suggest decrease the amount of healing on expertise, start by reducing it by 5% and monitor it for a couple weeks to see if its enough.

What I hate is people who say a tank or DPS should NEVER be able to beat a healer 1v1.

Indeed it is a statement of ignorance, one born in the completely stupid notion that a healer should be able to stand there 1on1 and take it indefinitely. The raw output issue is a major concern but, more guilty, is the strength of various instant heals, especially on Operative/Scoundrel.

This is why there is very little, if any, complaining that Merc/Commando healing is overpowered. They hardcast or they don't heal. If left unchecked, they are competitive and can at least keep up with the output of a good dps (probably exceed it narrowly). Their Kolto Missile is awesome when it can land on 2 or more players and is instant, but it is very narrowly positional (half the radius of the top talent Op/Sco one), so you don't feel the sheer imbalance like you do with other specs.

Healing does need an output nerf in PVP, but how major that nerf needs to be is conditional. The more important fix is to force more hard casts into Operative/Scoundrel especially. 1.5sec cast on Kolto Probe would be the best solution. If you want to heal, you should have to stop and heal, not heal your entire team and yourself endlessly with basically no resource cost. (At least Force Bubble costs resources faster than said resource is regained and so cannot be maintained on several players nigh-indefinitely.)

if you cant outdamage 2,2k of healing done by the strongest hot IG coming from ops/scound every three seconds you are not even worth to be called DD.

The max dps in PVE of fully geared characters is barely over 2k. Add in Expertise reductions, 10% elemental/internal resistance buff, LOS issues, stuns, slows, etc... I'd be impressed if you could maintain anywhere NEAR max dps in PVP. Some specs can burst for a lot more, but the sustained drops it a lot.

Good luck on a ranged hunting down a healer constantly ducking behind Voidstar pylons, ACW turrets, Huttball walls, for example, especially if said ranged class is heavily dependent on hardcast abilities. Even melee has trouble on a moving target constantly LOSing around a terrain object.

Did I mention Guard/Taunts exist? Because remember the fact that you're not doing anywhere near 2k dps sustained in PVP... cut that in half, or lower. When you drop to ~800 dps and their HOTs heal ~3x that amount every 3 seconds... oh, imagine that, it's mathematically impossible to win. (These are really just example numbers. His was an example, mine's an example. His example number combined with browsing pve forums for spec information does help give some bonus perspective though.)

It is remarks like this that reflect the ignorance of the fact that healing output is pretty much insane compared to dps output.

I mean in a perfect world the game.. most times there are 2 healers 2 tanks 4 dps.. Those 2 healers are responsible for keeping people alive vs the 2 tanks and 4 dps.. That does not mean that their heals will out do the damage dealt, it means that including those players Defensive cooldowns.. personal heals.. Positioning , Those heals will help subsidize the damage being dealt to them. This will allow them to either kill the opposing player or escape to safety to try again.

A freecasting healer should be putting out substantial output, not unbeatable output. And a focused healer should be a dead healer, within a reasonable timeframe. Like you said, defensive cooldowns, guards, taunts, position and LOS issues, etc.

All I see here is "Healers must be gods else they are useless."

Welcome to MMO PVP. Healers always want more buffs for themselves and feel like no one should ever die because they're "skilled" and their "skill" means they're beating those "noob dps". These healers are often on premade teams who believe they are winning with "skill" rather than relying on overpowered healers and, just as often, whatever flavor of the month specs are overpowered as well.

People saying premades should get removed are silly. Server pops are low enough that even without queuing together, it would be easy for several people to queue at the same time and mostly end up together. Further, premades themselves aren't a problem, and you should be able to play with friends. The problem is premades exploiting healer imbalance for consistent wins that have absolutely zero to deal with personal skill, and come entirely from overpowered healing mixed with higher gear.

If you won all the time and delusionally attributed it to your own "skill", I'm sure you'd claim healing is fine and pvp is well balanced too. Player Egos do that.

The sheer abundance of healers on pub side or the sheer lack of healers imp side generally are the biggest issues I have observed on Jung Ma.

Maybe Empire faction players just aren't - as a tendency - altruistic players ? And i mean players, not characters !

I have a scoundrel and I have spec'd heals before and did so while wearing dps gear. All I have to say is that it is brain dead easy, especially now that probes are dirt cheap and you can practically spam them. Topple that with emergency medpack and the class is a cake walk. I've lost count of how many times I've gotten down to 10% hp and then walked away with over 60% hp while having time to emote.

My experience on my Operative is much the same. The fact that the Kolto Probes, medpacs, whatever proc more free instant heals (which itself refunds its own cost on low health targets) is pretty ridiculous. The Probes are such a long duration and so cheap that if you played Whack-A-Mole with the buff durations, you could literally keep the entire team under endless HOTs for effectively free.

It is completely faceroll easy.

The big problem I see is that healing itself is not a very fun or rewarding experience in random WZs if you can't outheal the 1 DPS hanging on your backside.

It's not very fun or rewarding imo at all. Players have their own preferences. I hate playing healers in PVP, I'm fine with tank specs (love tank vanguard and assassin), and usually dps spec the other clases. People confuse "being useful" with "well I'm a healer so I shouldn't lose to some scrub dps". Sorry but you should. You're a TEAM support role, not a tank. If you want to be near-unkillable 1on1 with a dps, then play a tank spec, that's what TANKS should be doing.

A lot of healers want to be solo kings while also being exponentially stronger in a team setting... that's not how things should go. The more team oriented your spec and class are, the worse you should be in smaller (or solo) engagements. A tank is awesome solo or in a duo, they lose a lot of value the more players get added... they can only guard 1 player at a time, only taunt 1 enemy at a time (on a short cooldown) and don't do the full damage of a dps. A healer excels the larger an engagement gets, this is their role, and this is their value.

If you want that small-scale individualistic gratification, don't play a team support role. Plain and simple.

Check out the dps. There were only 2 players who put out up about 500k damage, and they were on your team. The empire team sucked.

You are misreading the data by a LOT. The Empire team died more without healers, so they did less damage, you do less damage when you die. The Republic team died a LOT less because of his completely overpowered healing which, mind you, is UNDERSTATED in that chart (his overheals aren't being counted). Longer-lived players have an easier time doing more damage. I'd also be willing to bet the JK with high damage is Smash inflated and that the Smuggler was spamming Shrap Bombs. In addition to not dying thanks to overpowered healing, their damage is overstated by a lot of AOE inflation.

Your interpretation is what the ignorant usually see, and mistake for a "skill" differential. They see 1 team "sucked" and the other team did not, without understanding that the difference in deaths is because of the healer... who mathematically stomped everyone else's output in that game. There may or may not have been a skill difference at play, we'll never know. What IS visible is that the healer mathematically destroyed everyone else in output, with 2 likely AOE inflated specs being the only players even close... even then, they don't match up WITH the inflation, and that's not counting his overheals. His true effective output in that match could be over 1 million, while those 2 high dps only effectively did 300-400k.

This is the kind of misconception that reinforces this horribly imbalanced situation.

Why do people always assume the DPS were bad? Like I said, yesterday I had a game where we have 5 total deaths and completely demolished the enemy side. Our top DPS (Smasher who never died) barely beat the enemy Sage healer that promptly died in every encounter and never casted Deliverance and had no Guard. He still beat all but one of our DPS in HPS done, and our DPS can't do better than killing him the moment he shows up. It took a smasher with 0 deaths to beat a healer in DPS done versus HPS done in a game we dominated from beginning to end. In any remotely even matchup not even the Smasher could've beaten the healer because he's probably going to actually die a few times and the opposing healer is likely to have a Guard.

People assume the DPS were bad because that's how they justify to themselves that they are "skilled" when their healer-crutch premade wins. Clearly they who win are skilled and their enemies who lost were "bad", how can you not see that this only boils down to skill?

THAT is the kind of ego-driven logic you're competing with.

Im not really understanding. The argument is/was healing is to powerful. He provided a screen shot where team A had 2 healers and team B had 3 healers. If healing was so overpowered/easy as he is arguing, then why would team b not easily win?

Healing really doesn't guarantee victory. If you're too dumb to watch the pylon/door/turret/bunker or can't throw a huttball, healing can't fix that. There ARE objectives in Warzones. Judging from his description, I'd assume it was some Voidstar slugfest. I've been in Voidstar slugfests where one side completely dominates the other in output (dps and healing, usually high dps because of the healing) and then, because no doors were lost, a coin flip at the end just gives it to one side... or maybe 1 door was lost really late in a round and the underdog team manages to snipe a victory.

Yes I am!!!!! There is a guy putting up 350k damage and complaining healing is OP.

Bad DPS can pull twice that just because a healer keeps them alive an entire match. Good DPS can pull half that because they're killed on sight without healer support. Clearly though, you and your guildies in your premade are awesome, and your healing/damage numbers are only because of skill... and NOT because overpowered healing keeps your dps alive longer to increase their damage done.

Dear OP,

Try a CM Commando and rethink about what you typed.

I've actually softened a lot on the Merc/Commando side, as you may have noticed in several of my progressive posts. You guys have a lot of hardcasts which makes you capable of BEING focused and BEING interrupted. If any healing spec is ACTUALLY balanced, it'd be you guys and you guys ONLY.

Top DPS (some BH) our side: 500K damage, 1 death.

Top healer (Sage) their side: 600K healed, 7 deaths.

Don't forget that overhealing and unused force bubble wasn't included. Sage's true output is probably another 100-200k above that.

So wait youre basing your argument on the fact that the healer had more HPS than the DPS had DPS.... that doesn't mean squat, a sage healer especially can heal EIGHT people at one time with their AOE heal, which will inflate their numbers significantly.... next argument please because this one is invalid.

Ignorance at its finest. Salvation requiring everyone to stack in it, for one thing, would subject the entire team to a ton of free AOE bonus damage. Furthermore, the Sage DIED several times (7 actually), meaning he spent upwards of 3-4min not even participating in the warzone. Further beyond that, thanks to how Sage/Sorc resources work, he poentially could've burned a LOT more Force spamming Benevolence/Dark Heal and inflating his numbers even more.

Your ignorance of warzone and class mechanics causes you to not realize that the Sage/Sorc could easily pull twice what he was doing... and MORE if he didn't die. His actual output as a healer was at least twice what the other team's top dps was.... and he died 7 times as often. That was the point.

Okay, I think I get it now. The healers are basically saying if they don't outperform the enemy top DPS they'd never be wanted because having a healer tag means you should automatically outperform the enemy team's best DPS.

Pretty much. A lot of Healers want an I Win Button. They feel they should be worth more than 1 player 1on1 and exponentially worth more in a team scenario. They just don't want to have to deal with that whole "team" mechanic to be good, they should be better than "scrub dps" even when solo. "My 1 healer is supposed to be 1/4 of the team therefore I should heal equal to 4 players' worth of damage"... followed by promptly packing 3-4 healers or hybrids in an 8-man team.

People are supposed to die in warzones. Healing is supposed to slow that rate for your team, not prevent it entirely.

then I realize that all of you are just hiding behind that veil and realize that if they balanced out healing you would suddenly be terrible at the game.

Not necessarily terrible, but definitely mediocre. And they don't want to be on the same level as those "scrubs" and pugs. They're "better" than them.

He is not talking about the healer. He is talking about the tank. In the video he shows 2 healer freecasting the tank and the other team not being able to bring down the tank. Not once did the other team try to kill the healer.

The point of the video seems to be not whether or not the tank + healers COULD be killed by focusing the heals, but as a demonstration that the output of the freecasting healers is SO high that it completely nulls the damage on the tank. Which is back to the point that healers are mathematically overpowered.

I will agree that obviously bad decision making like that shouldn't pan out but such a huge discrepancy in healer vs dps output is unacceptable.

I don't know what game you play but even when I was bubble spec I could out heal the highest damage.

Exactly. You don't even dedicate to the healing tree and still mathematically dominate dps. And that's NOT counting your overheals and unused bubbles which you spent resources on and weren't even counted.

Less fun for you.

Some people enjoy matches that are close and go down to the wire.

When it is due to good gameplay, not due to "lol heals no one dies". An imbalanced game where people don't die because specs are overpowered is not fun.

The most valid point I take from all of it (whether it was your intended point or not) is that teamwork is now required to down a healer.

Actually that point isn't valid, without context. Teamwork should NOT be required to kill a healer just because "lol a healer". Teamwork should be required in a TEAM vs TEAM situation. It should not take more than 1 person to kill 1 solo healer, within a reasonable timeframe.

Healers are a TEAM role and should be effective in such, but they shouldn't also just dominate solo situations as well. When Merc/Commando does well, it's in a team. You won't see solo Merc/Commandos getting chased by 2+ people and taking forever to die. You will constantly see solo Sorc/Ops getting chased by multiple people and not dying due to their instant heals and escape mechanisms.

So no, the point is NOT universally valid. A healer without a team should be a dead healer, and pretty quickly at that. A healer within the context of a team (who can guard, taunt, peel, stun, etc) should require some coordination from the other team to die. They should also suffer performance decrease from being the focus of attention, not this "My heals only INCREASE because I can Kolto Probe MORE people! lol".

The problem could very well be that the OP, like many others, aren't accustomed to strategies and gameplans concerning support classes.

I am familiar and that is the point. There's no strategy in being overpowered. Voidstar was changed with that giant gate in the middle precisely because it was so easy to turtle the first set of doors with healers. Now, healing has inflated SO much that once again max level Voidstar will often turn into a turtle fest. The warzone literally had to be changed because of the impact healing output had on it... and healing output has gotten so much MORE out of control that even the change was overcome. There was a time when the change came down that Voidstar matches actually ended based on who reached the latter doors or datacore first, because BOTH teams were often able to make legitimate progress!

Shouldn't be able to run away with Kolto Probes and just not-die without being heavily ganged up on. If I'm a healer running off alone, I should be dead. And that is the problem. The support role is beating out the solo role and then scaling UP when teams are involved.

Highest overall recorded damage in 2.0 to date is 2.6m (link). Highest recorded healing is 4.3m.

Highest recorded dps is 2589, highest hps is 2907 (link).

 

These are the only numbers I'm aware of, and it shows quite obviously that healing is higher.

Yes healers can still be killed with proper focus/swapping and use of cc, but the healing is still over the damage by a significant margin.

Keep in mind that the recorded damage output is still inflated with some wasted unproductive damage. The healing output is STILL understated thanks to overhealing.

i wonder what what happen if there was ever a match with 8 healers vs 8 dpsers. what would happen

Assuming similar skill levels, it will still boil down to the individual classes involved. Several of the dps specs can still off-heal in dps spec, as well as taunt (or even guard), so the dps team will suffer very few casualties. Lack of taunt and guard on the healer team kills their utility in this absurd scenario.

Poor damage output combined with lacking as much secondary role utility would likely doom a straight-healer team. The warzone itself also matters. The scenario favors the dps team due to flexibility in class composition being anything from among 8 classes and the utility that comes from that flexibility. The healer team only has 3 functional classes and lacks all access to off-tank utility.

Now if it was All Healers vs Marauder+Sniper only... I'd say the healer team has the edge in most warzones. Snipers can be LOSd a lot while the Marauders can be chain CCed, making it hard for the DPS only classes to focus players down, especially in a timely manner. The healing team can constantly rotate around its players while injured players LOS the snipers. Both teams die very slowly but if either side is going to manage a clean-sweep long enough to get a 2-1 objective lead, I'd give to to the healer team.

A pointless hypothetical but it was fun to speculate.

This thread seems to be so much focused on healers in a 1vs1 environment and the recurring objecion of pug players against pre-mades.

I don't say you have too, but why don't you try forming a pre-made and learn to play together ? I can assure you you'll have more fun in this game.

If you really don't like it make a topic in the suggestion forum to actually separate pugs from pre-mades as much as possible in a future patch. But then, you'll have the problem that if there aren't enough pre-made teams queed or an uneven number they'll never get a pop.

The big question is, what do you do in an mmo if you want to play solo too I guess ?

This thread seems to be so much focused on healers in a 1vs1 environment and the recurring objecion of pug players against pre-mades.

 

I don't say you have too, but why don't you try forming a pre-made and learn to play together ? I can assure you you'll have more fun in this game.

 

If you really don't like it make a topic in the suggestion forum to actually separate pugs from pre-mades as much as possible in a future patch.

Um no the point is that effect of healing has on the state of gameplay. Healing is so prevalent now even PUGs often have 3 healers. This leads to warped outcomes where one side and sometime both sides have single digit total deaths and the outcome is often determined by who can click on an objective faster. I had one Voidstar game where we defended our round fine, and noted that the enemy is basically the same composition as we do (heavy heals/defense), but we knocked down their door at 4 minutes into the game and won. Since I was attacking the other door I asked what brilliant plan did we do to crack their defense, and the response was 'we had 3 guys capping the door from starting of the match and eventually one of them succeeded'. Games like that are becoming increasing common and I can't imagine them being very fun for anybody involved.

Assuming that the healer has no help from his team mates it will still take atleast (depending on combo) two competent damage dealers to stop him from doing his main task, healing team mates. Even in this position he will be able to heal himself and probably get away, all while occupying two enemies and thereby potentially playing a key role. So yeah, healing for atleast sages/sorcs and foremost scoundrels/operatives is over the top. I can't speak for commando/merc.

Now add to the equation that pug players are usually uncoordinated and plain stupid. The times a healer will have two dedciated damage dealers on him at all times are few and far apart, which makes the job even easier.

I'd say that 9 out of ten deaths for me as a sage healer is because I've had someone on me for so long that I'm running out of force and basically take the death in a way to replenish mana. During that time I've managed to both heal myself and throw bubbles and aoe's around me. I'm rarely dying because people burn me down in a focused effort.

As for the stupid healer vs dps scenario that people like to bring up, the dps won't win. I'm rarely finding myself in "pure" 1 vs 1 scenarios but when I do and if I choose to fight back I'm probably going to come out of it with full health. Another option is to not fight back and just waste their time by healing myself. It's situational but it will take a really talented DD on a good class to even have a remote chance. As DPS speced I'd lose many of those battles.

This thread seems to be so much focused on healers in a 1vs1 environment and the recurring objecion of pug players against pre-mades.

It's an exponential effect. If 1 competent dps isn't going to be reasonably able to kill 1 competent healer, then what happens when a 2nd dps and a tank or 2nd healer get involved? How do you capture a node within a reasonable timeframe when you cannot send an equal number of players and reasonably expect even a possibility success?

Healers are a team role and get better in teams, they SHOULD be bad solo. You SHOULD be playing your healer as a team player, not sitting on a node cuz "lol can't die 1v1 for a good minute or so". Healers feel entitled to be good in every capacity, in a team, in a duo, solo, etc. And this is the result.

This leads to warped outcomes where one side and sometime both sides have single digit total deaths and the outcome is often determined by who can click on an objective faster.

That's not the only point but is a relevant one, and at least one of the central thrusts of my initial post. There are a lot of points about the negative impact healers being overpowered is having on the game.

I love Huttball but even a lot of my Huttball matches have degenerated down to "Who can dodge the endgame timer in a 0-0?" and that's no good. No one even runs the ball because it involves leaving the healers who are in mid, and thus you die, so there's no offense going on.

I've also heard the opposite, the healers are on offense so much that no one plays defense and the game is who can click the ball respawn the fastest because scoring becomes a given. Either scenario is a pretty degenerate collapse of warzone mechanics. As stated before, ACW boils down to who clicked their side turret first and got up 10-0, because no one's going to die at mid or on the sides. If they do, then one team auto-wins because you'll never recap the objectives in time to turn it around.

 

Healers are a team role and get better in teams, they SHOULD be bad solo. You SHOULD be playing your healer as a team player, not sitting on a node cuz "lol can't die 1v1 for a good minute or so". Healers feel entitled to be good in every capacity, in a team, in a duo, solo, etc. And this is the result.

 

While I don't agree that healers are all out OP, I can see more clearly your point about them being a viable 1v1 role. Reducing the magnitude of their self heals, or removing the ability to use some of the heals on themselves seems like it could bring about a solution to that issue.

I can't Guardian Leap to myself to reduce my damage taken by 20% for 6 seconds, and after reading your posts and playing heals to gather more knowledge of the situation, I can safely say that losing the effectiveness of self-heals would mean that I would have to depend on my teammates in the same way that other roles depend on the healer.

'we had 3 guys capping the door from starting of the match and eventually one of them succeeded'. Games like that are becoming increasing common and I can't imagine them being very fun for anybody involved.

Wow, that other team sounds terrible if that was your strategy and it worked.

I've also fought really dumb teams before, it doesn't mean healing is overpowered. In fact that seems completely irrelevant to the power of healing.

Healers are a team role and get better in teams, they SHOULD be bad solo. /QUOTE]

 

Says you. So you get to decide which class is a "team role"? Aren't they all? Do you do flashpoints or ranked without a tank or dps?

And how does it follow that if a class fills a team role they "should" be bad solo? Since all classes fill a team role wouldn't that mean they should all be bad? Or just the ones you choose, eh?