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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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Just saying, though. Doesn't mean I'm happy about it.

Oh, absolutely. I'm not happy SGR for companions is not in, but neither am I going to cry foul because they "didn't flip the switch" and "it's so easy to do." I'm realistic that this is a ton of work and the more I think about it, the more complicated it gets! As you mention, conflict dialogues could take not only new VA work from the PCs and SGR companions, but also possibly from non-SGR companions!

 

So when they say "this will take a lot more work than we realized at the time," I absolutely believe them. That's not even taking into account how much coding may (or may not) be required. Especially with the Hero Engine, which is apparently a gigantic coding pain.

 

I'm not seeing them as the SGRA's I've been waiting for - they're [Flirt]s with world NPCs I'm likely only to ever see once.

Yep, it really isn't. It's still a big thing though. As you point out, their handling so far has been terrible, so to have ANYTHING is a big change and opens up possibilities for more in the future. I see this as more an announcement that "there will be stuff coming" than "here is your SGR stuff!" That's what it seems like to me. "Here is what we can do now, but there will be more in the future. It just takes a lot of work."

 

As for this part being in a paid expansion, that doesn't bother me. It's fine. It makes sense. It's far easier to put SGR into new stuff that they can build from the ground up. Retrofitting it into old content takes more work. So it's reasonable that they'd start with something easier (Makeb) before moving onto something harder (current companions). There's not much option for giving it for free either. You can't exactly make the SGR NPCs on Makeb free if you can't get to Makeb without paying. It's a stepping stone. They start with this, get SGR into the game, break the glass wall of silence and anything could happen next. Could be more, could be nothing.

 

But this is a start and it's far better than a week ago.

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It's a stepping stone. They start with this, get SGR into the game, break the glass wall of silence and anything could happen next. Could be more, could be nothing.

But this is a start and it's far better than a week ago.

So very true.

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I see this as more an announcement that "there will be stuff coming" than "here is your SGR stuff!" That's what it seems like to me. "Here is what we can do now, but there will be more in the future. It just takes a lot of work."

 

I can't believe so many folks are buying into this crap. The only reason we are getting SG Flirts is because it likely actually saved them time and money, less alternate dialogue to record and faster implementation time since they don't have to code in gender checks and additional lines of dialogue. Things are now the same for both gender in the flirt options. This just happens to be why the old "time and money" excuse from pre-launch was a load of bull.

 

I also can't imagine how on Earth updating existing companions is somehow "like totally super hard". 90% of the needed content already exists right there in the game. Each romance would likely need only a handful of lines rewritten, rerecorded, and reprogrammed. Likely only a couple of the romances would require any significant amount of rework.

 

If changing a few lines of dialogue is some monumental task on the part of the devs that risks introducing character destroying bugs or extended server downtimes (i can't even fathom why that would be the case) or require rewriting entire sections of game code, content updates are going to be so monumentally slow and rare the game will simply wilt on the vine as you get your yearly content update. How in the world can they add whole new sections of content and gameplay if changing a few lines of dialogue presents such a critical risk? Answer is, it doesn't of course.

 

So all the new excuses really are, in the end, are more excuses. I bet making brand now Ops and WZ's are "like totally super hard" too, but they don't seem to have any problems adding those to the game. No, this isn't an issue of time, resources, or complexity. Its just a fresh round of dismissal and exclusion.

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Its just a fresh round of dismissal and exclusion.
I don't buy that, Noz. It's not in line with what's in the State of the Game. It's not in line with what anti people have been told who complained to CS about SGR implementation, namely that BW/EA are supportive of them. So no, I don't buy that, sorry.
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I don't buy that, Noz. It's not in line with what's in the State of the Game. It's not in line with what anti people have been told who complained to CS about SGR implementation, namely that BW/EA are supportive of them. So no, I don't buy that, sorry.

 

I've never found tokenism to be particularly indicative sign of a supportive and inclusive agency.

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I can't believe so many folks are buying into this crap. The only reason we are getting SG Flirts is because it likely actually saved them time and money, less alternate dialogue to record and faster implementation time since they don't have to code in gender checks and additional lines of dialogue. Things are now the same for both gender in the flirt options. This just happens to be why the old "time and money" excuse from pre-launch was a load of bull.

 

I also can't imagine how on Earth updating existing companions is somehow "like totally super hard". 90% of the needed content already exists right there in the game. Each romance would likely need only a handful of lines rewritten, rerecorded, and reprogrammed. Likely only a couple of the romances would require any significant amount of rework.

 

If changing a few lines of dialogue is some monumental task on the part of the devs that risks introducing character destroying bugs or extended server downtimes (i can't even fathom why that would be the case) or require rewriting entire sections of game code, content updates are going to be so monumentally slow and rare the game will simply wilt on the vine as you get your yearly content update. How in the world can they add whole new sections of content and gameplay if changing a few lines of dialogue presents such a critical risk? Answer is, it doesn't of course.

 

So all the new excuses really are, in the end, are more excuses. I bet making brand now Ops and WZ's are "like totally super hard" too, but they don't seem to have any problems adding those to the game. No, this isn't an issue of time, resources, or complexity. Its just a fresh round of dismissal and exclusion.

 

o.O Have the flirt options been shown to be just the same dialogue for all characters to the same NPCs? Or is this just what you're assuming (tho you could be right)?

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The problem is that SWTOR is an MMOrpg. If this were a standalone game then indeed they could remove the gender checks, do some VA, and release a patch.

But. This isn't a standalone game. Nor a standalone game with multiplayer options. This is an online game. Live at that.

They can't just go back and change these options. It would likely bug everyone's progress with their companions in the process. The same goes for NPCs. They can't just change those. It'll have different effects for people who've done the quests, are in the middle of the quests and those who have completed it. And these conversations and quests can't just be reset either. And the idea of some item resetting it, is also nearly impossible. It can be coded, but the consequences and bugs as a result cannot be overseen.

 

The problem with SWTOR is that SGR could've easily been in at launch without much difficulty or high costs. Instead someone made the poor call to not do it. At an executive level maybe they thought like most do here that it would be easy to implement, but are now realising that it's not an easy task, but an incredibly difficult one. They'd be facing possible bugs for almost every quest and conversation. That's an impossible task.

 

The only thing that can reasonably be done is adding new companions the way HK51 has been added with VA for the earlier planets included. Additional quests can be added on the core planets with NPCs that are available for SGR.

 

Your game, your character and progress, are on the server. This isn't a standalone game. It's coded differently. It's not something that can be fixed easily.

 

Additionally, to implement such a patch for the millions of account toons that are the servers, they'd have to take the servers down for days, not just hours. Adding new content, some new code to add new FPs, WZs or Planets already takes 4hrs for a small patch, and 8hrs for a big patch. Now imagine them recoding it all, and making changes to save games. That's a task that'll take days, and sorry folks, just not realistic. I would love to see it. But realistically it's nearly impossible. At this point in time I'd rather see them spend time on some new SGR companions. That can be a content patch done in an 8hr server downtime. Development won't take much longer than redoing the previous companions, and it'd be something new for everyone. Yes it'd be the "SGR companion", whatever. It's something that'd get me through the 50 levels for a toon before I reach the new content that will be inclusive.

 

I don't believe is so monumentally complicated. I bet one tab of your cargo hold has more information than whatever flags one of your companions has.

Changing the script to companions story arcs could be just like changing the workflow of whatever in a ERP system (probably much less complicated). You add alternative paths, steps, new conditions, etc.

In this case, it'll be only a new path. The "friend" path and the "straight" path will be the same. If someone has their companion's story already in progress, there should be an option to go back to square one. Can't be that difficult, since they dont have an impact your class story, nor or the world.

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It's not about changing flags. That's fine for re-rolling. The implication is that they don't want us to have to re-roll. And that is indeed a monumental undertaking, because changing a flag check in a conversation you've already had doesn't do jack spit for you without the ability to go back and have that conversation again. If you've finished the JK story and talked to Kira's Spoiler Spoiler, you're done with her. The game has, currently, a completely linear form of tracking for companion conversations, and there's no way for you to, at that point, access new romance content with her of any stripe, unless that content is locked to only appear at that point. And of course if so, every other Knight would have to level to 50 to s/s romance Kira.

 

Any method by which PCs could *begin* a new romance at any point in the progression of a given companion's story progression would be an unbelievable headache to code. It would also be the only fair way to implement it. If that's their dilemma I don't blame them in the least for taking a spillion years to get it done. (I do still blame them for not implementing it to begin with, and for their inane gag order, but those are entirely separate issues.)

 

Agitate, if you like, for them to just rip the flags out and make everyone re-roll. It would be fast, it would be easy, it would be relatively un-error-prone. It would be something that they should be able to roll out next month if they've actually been working on it. But that is not the only way to do it, and it is very likely not the way they intend to do it, based on the way they've conducted themselves with other issues thus far (hood toggles, for example, where they've also ignored a completely easy and obvious shortcut in favor of doing it right the first time). I, on the other hand, am willing at this point to wait for quality. All they need to do is actually manage to tell us that that's what they're doing, for bloody once.

Edited by Quething
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It's not about changing flags. That's fine for re-rolling. The implication is that they don't want us to have to re-roll. And that is indeed a monumental undertaking, because changing a flag check in a conversation you've already had doesn't do jack spit for you without the ability to go back and have that conversation again. If you've finished the JK story and talked to Kira's Spoiler Spoiler, you're done with her. The game has, currently, a completely linear form of tracking for companion conversations, and there's no way for you to, at that point, access new romance content with her of any stripe, unless that content is locked to only appear at that point. And of course if so, every other Knight would have to level to 50 to s/s romance Kira.

 

Any method by which PCs could *begin* a new romance at any point in the progression of a given companion's story progression would be an unbelievable headache to code. It would also be the only fair way to implement it. If that's their dilemma I don't blame them in the least for taking a spillion years to get it done. (I do still blame them for not implementing it to begin with, and for their inane gag order, but those are entirely separate issues.)

 

Agitate, if you like, for them to just rip the flags out and make everyone re-roll. It would be fast, it would be easy, it would be relatively un-error-prone. It would be something that they should be able to roll out next month if they've actually been working on it. But that is not the only way to do it, and it is very likely not the way they intend to do it, based on the way they've conducted themselves with other issues thus far (hood toggles, for example, where they've also ignored a completely easy and obvious shortcut in favor of doing it right the first time). I, on the other hand, am willing at this point to wait for quality. All they need to do is actually manage to tell us that that's what they're doing, for bloody once.

 

My gut tells me that they haven't decided yet. They've had other priorities. From what was written, they probably had a talk about this and how it could be done, but not followed up on a course of action yet other than not making the same mistake for Makeb. F2P must have been a big undertaking, that probably took longer than we realise, they could have started not long after game launch. And it's not without its bugs. There's plenty of posts of people who are having problems because of this move. And they didn't even have to code in different triggers and flags for any of the past story content.

 

Indeed, for new toons it wouldn't be hard to have this content, the problem lies with all the toons that are already there. And the bugs that are likely to occur when they make changes that would be meant for reflagging content that's already been progressed past. That's the major difference between new content added, of any kind, and changing existing content, that you're already past. Again, it's not a single player game stored on your hdd that can be patched (if you've ever looked at DA game files you'll also notice it's not just a single file with progression info, but a whole bunch of XMLs and data files). This is an even more complex engine on a server. It's constantly communicating between the server and your pc, we don't know how this interaction goes. We don't know what is stored in your save files on the server and pc and what isn't and how it all interacts. But clearly it's complicated. Just look at how Character Transfer has caused them headaches. It's not as easy as copying some files over from one server to another. Similarly, just pasting in some code, removing some code, will do nothing but break the game.

 

Personally I don't like to wait for a change of existing companions that could take years. I'd rather see new companions within a year. One choice is better than a long term choice that isn't likely to be prioritised because of the size of the undertaking. I don't really care for NPCs of the first levels, it'd be nice to see it, but I can live without it. For a single player game, this'd just be a patch with some changes, fixes and new resource files. For a live game it's far more complex than that. And if you look at DLCs for example, they're always added in a way that doesn't affect past content. Like the notice board in DA2. Changes they made to existing content in patches also caused bugs, like other quests not triggering, completing or bugs in rewards for existing characters.

 

While I think they need to do a lot more than adding some SGR NPCs to Makeb, I do understand that this won't be an easy task. And I think we need to be prepared and realistic that whatever will come, isn't likely to be a fix for all companions and NPCs for your existing characters. But then again, I also don't know how exactly this game and server work, so I can be completely off.

The very least they need to do is make sure that some companion SGR will be available for the levels 1 to 50. It takes a long time to get to Makeb. Moreover Makeb is not class story, there's no reason for me to try all classes without SGR to get to the same NPCs in Makeb. I'm interested in all class stories, but I'm not even completing my SI now because the overabundance of OGR and a complete lack of SGR takes the fun out of the game for me.

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The very least they need to do is make sure that some companion SGR will be available for the levels 1 to 50. It takes a long time to get to Makeb. Moreover Makeb is not class story, there's no reason for me to try all classes without SGR to get to the same NPCs in Makeb. I'm interested in all class stories, but I'm not even completing my SI now because the overabundance of OGR and a complete lack of SGR takes the fun out of the game for me.

 

I feel the same way, absolutely. I've finally started to play a male smuggler, to see what it feels like, and in what felt like five minutes into the game I already had to fend off the first advances made by female NPCs towards my guy.

 

I wouldn't even mind so much if I knew there'd be SGR flirts somewhere down the line as well, but to know there aren't ANY is just seriously detracting from the game playing experience. It just feels fake, like a puzzle with half of the pieces missing.

 

Without SGR with companions, new ones or old ones in the 1-50 range, I cannot see myself sticking with this game for very long. Not with all the OGR in it that I'm not gonna be playing, or that may be keeping me from playing, after all.

Edited by Lent_San
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I, on the other hand, am willing at this point to wait for quality. All they need to do is actually manage to tell us that that's what they're doing, for bloody once.

 

They aren't telling anyone what they are doing because they haven't done anything. That much at the very least was made clear to everyone even if we debate what else the statements mean.

 

Frankly the more willing people are to 'wait for quality" (whatever that means) the less likely you are to ever get anything. The longer this issue drags on the less likely it is going to be they ever do anything about it. At this point I don't expect we'll ever see more than a few random SG Flirts with NPC's whenever they add new content. If they do ever add a SG companion it'll likely end up a generic one size fits all companion that everyone gets.

 

If they never get around to adding SGRA's for the existing companions anything else they add is just scraps. We haven't pressed this issue this hard for this long for scraps. If they don't ever getting around to giving equal SGRA content to the community BW-Austin has failed in their claim "As we have said in the past, allowing same gender romance is something we are very supportive of. "

 

They can say it all they want, but until they actually do it, it is just words.

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They aren't telling anyone what they are doing because they haven't done anything. That much at the very least was made clear to everyone even if we debate what else the statements mean.

 

No, that's an assumption you're making based on what EA/BW:A has visibly done. And you might be right or you might be wrong. But either way, whether it's a fair call or not, it's your opinion. It's not fact and people can quite validly disagree with it.

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No, that's an assumption you're making based on what EA/BW:A has visibly done. And you might be right or you might be wrong. But either way, whether it's a fair call or not, it's your opinion. It's not fact and people can quite validly disagree with it.

 

Well it is indisputable that there are no SGRA's in the game and that there won't be for any definition of foreseeable future. I suppose you could claim "oh i bet they are really work hard on it" but seriously we all know they aren't. BW themselves said it was "delayed" without even an ambiguous attempt at when it might no longer be "delayed". Anyone that has spent time playing MMO's knows what that means.

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Well it is indisputable that there are no SGRA's in the game and that there won't be for any definition of foreseeable future.

 

That is, indeed, indisputable. That's fact.

 

I suppose you could claim "oh i bet they are really work hard on it" but seriously we all know they aren't.

 

No, we don't. Some people can assume that but we simply don't know what movement they've put toward it because they haven't released that. We all know they haven't put them in-game yet, that's all.

 

BW themselves said it was "delayed" without even an ambiguous attempt at when it might no longer be "delayed". Anyone that has spent time playing MMO's knows what that means.

 

Anyone who plays MMOs knows what it often means, and that might be true in this case or it might not be. We don't have enough data to say conclusively one way or the other. This is all speculation - and it might even be accurate speculation - but don't try to say it's solid fact because it isn't.

 

 

  • SGRAs are not in the game yet.
  • Whatever effort has or has not been put into SGRAs it has not yet resulted in their inclusion in the game.
  • Communication with EA/BW:A has been poor (to put it mildly).
  • As a general consensus most people (probably all) who want SGR content want it as romantic arcs with companions.
  • That's not coming with Makeb and there's no projection on when it's coming.

 

THOSE are the facts. And that's not optimism, it's just factual truth. As I've said, you might be absolutely spot on with your assumptions but that doesn't make them facts, and you might be wrong.

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Well it is indisputable that there are no SGRA's in the game and that there won't be for any definition of foreseeable future. I suppose you could claim "oh i bet they are really work hard on it" but seriously we all know they aren't. BW themselves said it was "delayed" without even an ambiguous attempt at when it might no longer be "delayed". Anyone that has spent time playing MMO's knows what that means.

 

Well, what worries me is that they still haven't clarified how these will work (New companions? Old ones? Will we have to reroll? Will some classes/genders be left out? etc.)

 

It's easy to assume that this is b/c they don't know either and haven't touched them. But we still have no idea atm.

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I can imagine the old wealthy farts running things arguing over this topic and whether or not they think it'll make them money and how it'll help/hurt their brand image.

 

To you old wealthy farts I say, 'I better not have to Reroll', you've been warned. ;)

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Oh Nozybidaj, aren´t you a little ray of sunshine in this thread, and been so since your very first post.

 

Since you seem so certain that SGRAs with companions are not at least in the works can you please explain why Makeb will feature some same sex flirts (of yet unknown magnitude). Because it seems to me that unless there are definite plans for providing full romance arcs, including some flirts in an high-level, non-free expansion seems like the ideal way to anger as many people as possible. Supporters will be satisfied for less then a week before the joy of the final inclusion wears of and the frustration about the inequality of the content starts. While at the same time opposer will make a ruckus about even such a minor inclusion.

The only reason why anyone would behave that way is if they intentionally want to ruin the game.

 

The most sensible assumption is that they are working on full inclusion (otherwise why bother putting it in Makeb in the first place) and that the only reason that they are putting flirts it in Makeb now is that they did not want to release another planet with just straight flirts, even if it will take more time to alter existing content.

 

Though I personally don´t expect full SGRAs to come before the expansion bringing chapter four of the character story, and that will likely not come before the end of 2013.

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Well, what worries me is that they still haven't clarified how these will work (New companions? Old ones? Will we have to reroll? Will some classes/genders be left out? etc.)

It's easy to assume that this is b/c they don't know either and haven't touched them. But we still have no idea atm.

Well, I know to some it doesn't mean much, but I do feel this part of the State of the Game is essential:

"Secondly, I want to reveal today that we are adding SGR with some NPCs on Makeb and do intend on pursuing more SGR options in the future. More details to come!"

 

If there was nothing more meaningful to come, why add this last bit? They'd get themselves into hot water all over again if they raise expectations yet again and in the end fail to deliver. I for one am gonna be waiting for what this "more details, more options" is, before I'm deciding on whether I'm disappointed or not. I'm even ready, by now, to reroll if SGR gets added with old companions. Rather that than not being able to play a few chars that I've been wanting to play for ages.

 

Though I personally don´t expect full SGRAs to come before the expansion bringing chapter four of the character story, and that will likely not come before the end of 2013.

That sounds reasonable enough to me. New story content, especially class content and/or new companions will most likely come with new SGR options. I don't feel like they want to backtrack on that, now that the actual "implementation part" is out of the bag, minor or not.

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Um, people, just a thought, do we really want to entertain trolls yet again in this thread?

 

They're coming here, making a point how they feel SGR are a waste of time, not needed, trying to validate their opinion by adding they feel the same way about other romances as well... sigh.

 

This is not the topic of this thread though. It's heavily off topic, honestly. This is not a thread to discuss how people may think about SGR inclusion, but a thread on how and when it gets implemented.

 

There's a thread in the Suggestion forum where people can discuss their disagreement, if they really want to.

 

I'd rather we stay on topic here and it's been a rather nice and fruitful discussion that's been going on for the last couple of days.

Edited by Lent_San
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Let's talk about NPCs on Makeb!

 

Now, I've not played Trooper and for obvious reasons didn't romance Watcher 2 with my Agent, so I don't know much about non-companion continued romances. There aren't any of these in the open world (unless there's one on the Pub side I've not heard about) so I was wondering what people would think if two* of the [Flirt] options were available as continued romances during your stay on Makeb.

 

I think it would be a nice change of pace from "I like your uniform" and the obligatory shag-in-a-cupboard you get on Nar Shadda and would, to me at least, demonstrate that Bioware has some interest in providing romances.

 

Also, as these qualify as "NPC [Flirt]s" and not companion romances, I wouldn't be that worried that a continued romance would be indicative of a future without companion romances. In fact, I feel it would possibly be a good demonstration of what Bioware would want to have in the future.

 

 

*Yes, two. For obvious reasons. Would be nice if they were only available to people wanting same-sex options (i.e. you've got a straight male but can't [Flirt] with this woman because she's a lesbian and has no interest in you what-so-ever,

.)
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*Yes, two. For obvious reasons. Would be nice if they were only available to people wanting same-sex options (i.e. you've got a straight male but can't [Flirt] with this woman because she's a lesbian and has no interest in you what-so-ever,
.)

 

The question here would be, why not allow the flirt, but have her turn you down? In fact, why not just give the flirt option and have lots of turn downs! "Awww...that's sweet of you...but I'm straight." (works in reverse too).

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The question here would be, why not allow the flirt, but have her turn you down? In fact, why not just give the flirt option and have lots of turn downs! "Awww...that's sweet of you...but I'm straight." (works in reverse too).

 

That would be the best option, but I was basing the above off what's already in the game (i.e. you can't romance this gender, therefore you can NEVER EVER tell them you like their shiny buttons.)

 

Getting rejected would be hilarious, lots of funny dialogue you can write there.

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Let's talk about NPCs on Makeb!

Now, I've not played Trooper and for obvious reasons didn't romance Watcher 2 with my Agent, so I don't know much about non-companion continued romances. There aren't any of these in the open world (unless there's one on the Pub side I've not heard about) so I was wondering what people would think if two* of the [Flirt] options were available as continued romances during your stay on Makeb.

I think it would be a nice change of pace from "I like your uniform" and the obligatory shag-in-a-cupboard you get on Nar Shadda and would, to me at least, demonstrate that Bioware has some interest in providing romances.

You know, to be honest, that's exactly what I've been expecting them to do after reading the State of the Game.

 

They didn't talk about NPC 'flirts' at all, they were talking about romances. I think the reason why people read it as NPC 'flirts' only (even though it wasn't ever stated that way) was because we have had NPC flirts in the past, but more fleshed out romances only with companions.

 

It could very well be very different with Makeb though. And even more so in the future. Making NPCs available for fleshed out romances would indeed be a (comparably) simple option to add more romance content later in the game (SGR or OGR) without having to recode old conversation trees or alter existing companions.

 

Those could be stand-alone romances, so to speak, and people who aren't interested in them could easily avoid them. You know, kinda like the romances with Cortez and Kelly in Mass Effect 3.

 

I'd think I'd like that.

 

I'd like if we'd get that and companion SGR on top of course, but I think, if I had to chose between nothing and non-companion SGR, the NPC option sounds rather good to me, granted it's a real option and not just a silly flirt.

Edited by Lent_San
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I'd like if we'd get that and companion SGR on top of course, but I think, if I had to chose between nothing and non-companion SGR, the NPC option sounds rather good to me, granted it's a real option and not just a silly flirt.

 

Now now, don't give Bioware any ideas. Keep saying stuff like "nothing or this" and all we'll end up with continued romances because Bioware thinks we're "ok" to "settle" with less than OGRs :p

 

Seriously though, I trust them as far as I can throw them.

 

The only problem I can see with same-sex-only continued romances is the age-old detractors whining that we're getting special treatment. "Oh my god! I can't believe that Bioware are giving the SGRA folks two options that we can't have! How am I supposed to enjoy my fifty bajillion other [Flirt] and fully fleshed out romances if they get something all to themselves! So not fair!"

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Frankly the more willing people are to 'wait for quality" (whatever that means) the less likely you are to ever get anything.

 

I'm a 'wait for quality' person. Played Smuggler 1-50 when the game launched, was generally disappointed about the lack of SGRA, so I canceled for the better part of a year. I only recently subbed up again with the new NPC flirts. Wait for Quality to me means that they can wait to get my money until they are providing a quality product.

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