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Isn´t it fun when you actually have to do Ops to get the Ops gear :)

 

To me ops are the reason to get gear; I really don't see the reason to get gear if someone isn't doing ops. Of course I don’t care if they have it either, especially since some raider “should” have made the credits off them.

 

But no it isn't that much fun if:

 

1. all crewskill, but biochem is made null and void.

2. You get new gear and it is worthless because of any resemblance to optimization is thrown out the window.

 

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t do operations to show off my gear, I do them because I enjoy doing them. I will go on anything any time and do any role with the guild. Even though all runs outside of my progress group are not going to net me any upgrades. I do however want when I am up and what should be an upgrade dropping, I want it to be an upgrade, even if I have to spend a few credits to make it so.

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Would be kind of neat if the gear itself couldn't be crafted (but still RE'd for applicable mats) and schematics were boss drops from the Ops content. "BoE" schematics, so that the schematic itself could be sold. Doesn't fix the problem of selling on the GTN and having other people "steal" the schematics, but I'd like to hope BioWare is trying to address that problem in any case, because the current situation is *wrong*, even if it kind of works.

 

That would let the monopolizers try to rake in the credits, and would give other groups clearing the option of breaking up the monopoly if they choose to take it. It would also make getting schematics to the appropriate crafting alts easier.

 

There's not enough replay value in BW's current content to spam to the point that everyone is BIS with the current stock gear drops.

 

If they're going to keep the "you can finish this in 2 hours" stuff, they need to keep the current crappy stock gear and craftable mods to keep a balance between reason to raid and burnout prevention.

 

Much longer, less linear raids that drop 1 piece per slot per run and itemized right from the get-go would be a pretty amazing change but I'm not holding my breath. Maybe it's more "old school" or less "casual friendly", but I'd be all for such content. Even better if there are multiple paths leading to multiple upgrades (e.g. 4 or 5 mini-raids-within-a-raid, each with multiple bosses which each drop a particular slot's item, with main slot drops on the last boss of each mini-raid, culminating with the most valuable drops (main/offhand) from the final boss). Maybe too EQ/WoW/MMOofChoiceHere-like, but would be a nice balance between time investment, variety of content, and replay-without-burnout.

 

While I'm dreaming, can I get a pony, too?

Edited by Omophorus
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The true value to having a system where people can just buy the stats for gear (the skins still require a run) is that operations are solely for people who wish to do them. I dont have people dropping group after the boss that drops there peice didnt drop it. Instead my group is full of people who want to be there for the sake of being there.
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The true value to having a system where people can just buy the stats for gear (the skins still require a run) is that operations are solely for people who wish to do them. I dont have people dropping group after the boss that drops there peice didnt drop it. Instead my group is full of people who want to be there for the sake of being there.

 

I think this sums it up pretty well. Sorry, I know this thread is a few days old.

There were quite a few "I'm so awesome!" posts claiming that only those super-awesome like them should be able to obtain best-in-game gear. Or if its craftable at all, it should be set up in a way that makes 2 or 3 of said super-awesome players mega-multi-millionaires because they were the only person in their guild who rolled cybertech instead of biochem.

(if it was done the way people on this thread were demanding, you couldn't even fwd mods to an alt to learn)

This outlook is both elitist and short-sighted.

How many "hard-core" gamers were already bored and gone before 1.2 even rolled out?

Still more left either right before or right after 1.3.

These are the last people Bioware needs to take advice from!

The guys who started the guild I was in previously were exactly that sort. Yea they were the first on the server to beat EV and KP in nightmare mode, and the server first to beat Zorn and Toth in hard mode.

Whoopie Do!

Half of those guys had quit the game by the time 1.2 came out, which was about the time a buddy and I joined up.

Most of the rest quit shortly after server mergers.

Yes, it took plenty of skill to learn those fights when there were no guides to look at and no one to teach you the mechanics. I'm not denying that.

But the one time I talked to the guy who founded that guild in teamspeak, he was a total jerk!

The GM when I joined was considerably nicer, but still lacked the patience to teach game mechanics.

He and his wife quit shortly after mergers along with most of what was left of the once biggest and baddest guild on the server. Leaving two (count-em) TWO of the talented players, and me. :o

 

So for all those who complain that a "gear check" doesn't mean what it used to; on that much we agree.

When I see a fully optimized set of 63's I don't think "this is gonna be a cake walk, the big-boys are here"

I think "If we wipe because this clown forgets to taunt, he's gonna blame everyone but himself."

 

They didn't make these learnable to make 3 people per server multi-millionaires. They did it to make crafting viable, and even profitable. Super-awesome players just don't stick around. Catering to their damands (especially on something as mundane as crafting) is NOT a long term strategy for the game. Super-awesome need NEW content about every two weeks or they get bored and start whining in forums about people "schem-stealing" and cutting into their obscene profit margins. Or they quit the game all together and play something else which invariably gets boring in about a month or less. I know this to be true. Some of the guild members who left for other games came back and left again when the next game came out.

The way it's set up now, people who aren't members of <Super-Awesome> can have something to work towards.

I know I'll never be invited to join <Super-Awesome> and I'm ok with that.

I'd much rather seek out scruffy newbs who want to learn.

And I know from experience that scruffy newbs make better friends anyway. :rolleyes:

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The problem with gear no longer being learnable is that BW tends to itemize their gear poorly.

 

Example: Patron armoring. Is there even a companion tank with cunning as a mainstat? Because there's no tank AC with a cunning mainstat.

 

What were they thinking with Patron mods? What was the point?

 

So basically, I'd be less worried if I trusted BW to itemize gear well.

Edited by AshlaBoga
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The problem with gear no longer being learnable is that BW tends to itemize their gear poorly.

 

Example: Patron armoring. Is there even a companion tank with cunning as a mainstat? Because there's no tank AC with a cunning mainstat.

 

What were they thinking with Patron mods? What was the point?

 

So basically, I'd be less worried if I trusted BW to itemize gear well.

 

Well, the HK droid uses cunning, and he's... DPS... nevermind.

Seems like there was another companion that can use cunning or aim.

I suppose if you're pushing the cap, you could switch to add endurance when more cunning would be of marginal benefit.

Edited by JacksonMo
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@JacksonMo, I get where you're coming from on this.

 

I don't know if I'm unusual, but I actually enjoyed the gear progression. When I only had a couple pieces of Columi, SM EV was hard for me. I had to get better at my class and learn how to coordinate with others in the group.

 

The same thing happened when I first started SM EC. I was Rakata/Columi and it was a significant step up in difficulty. I really had to pay attention to what was going on, move when I should, stay when I shouldn't, switch when I needed to, etc. etc.

 

So effectively, as I became a better player, it "unlocked" the higher levels of content I could complete, which allowed me to get better gear. I suppose this sort of experience isn't for everyone, but I really enjoyed it.

 

On the flipside, imagine running SM EV for the first time in Dread Guard? Any halfway decent player would find no challenge while vastly overgearing it. Anyone finding it difficult in that gear would likely be so clueless at their class it would be painful.

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Well, the HK droid uses cunning, and he's... DPS... nevermind.

Seems like there was another companion that can use cunning or aim.

I suppose if you're pushing the cap, you could switch to add endurance when more cunning would be of marginal benefit.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that most of the raiders like REing because of how poorly gear is itemized. If they itemize everything to be BiS without swapping mods I'm all for making it impossible to learn, but ONLY if they do that.

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@JacksonMo, I get where you're coming from on this.

 

I don't know if I'm unusual, but I actually enjoyed the gear progression. When I only had a couple pieces of Columi, SM EV was hard for me. I had to get better at my class and learn how to coordinate with others in the group.

 

The same thing happened when I first started SM EC. I was Rakata/Columi and it was a significant step up in difficulty. I really had to pay attention to what was going on, move when I should, stay when I shouldn't, switch when I needed to, etc. etc.

 

So effectively, as I became a better player, it "unlocked" the higher levels of content I could complete, which allowed me to get better gear. I suppose this sort of experience isn't for everyone, but I really enjoyed it.

 

On the flipside, imagine running SM EV for the first time in Dread Guard? Any halfway decent player would find no challenge while vastly overgearing it. Anyone finding it difficult in that gear would likely be so clueless at their class it would be painful.

 

Reminds me of my first few EV runs. We didn't bother with story mode. The rest of the group was (mostly) geared already, and at the time, I was the only smuggler. So for several runs, I would do my best until I died. On one occasion I remember dieing just as I got one last heal on the tank to down the droid boss.

Each week got better. Then they wanted to do EC, and the progression started all over in story mode. Only I was swapping toons based on who showed up. Healer/tank/rdps/mdps. Jack of all trades, master of none.

But now we've progressed to TFB hardmode and the twilek gunslinger modeled after Vette has evolved into my raiding toon. No more swapping. And my Skill as a DPS begins to fine-tune the way I learned to heal in EV. Learn the dance until you can do it with your eyes shut.

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The simple fact of the matter is that most of the raiders like REing because of how poorly gear is itemized. If they itemize everything to be BiS without swapping mods I'm all for making it impossible to learn, but ONLY if they do that.

 

It's not as if the only options are "nothing can be REd for schemas" and "everything can be REd for schemas". Back in ye olden days, when KP and EV were the only thing around, you could craft the mods and enhs assuming you got lucky and the actual legit schema dropped. The items themselves could be made, but the only people that *could* make them were raiders and the only way to get the mats (for the good stuff) was by *actually raiding* (and most guilds had Alien Data Cubes coming out of a number of orifices and still do). The only problem was that the schematics were, honestly, *way* too rare. Fix that problem (by either giving the last bosses or two a guaranteed BoP enh or mod schema and the final boss a chance a random armoring/hilt schema or all bosses growing chance at dropping one of the schemas), and I doubt anyone would have any issue. You can have both exclusivity *and* crafting gear, and it's not even all that hard.

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I've heard the same outcry before with some of my own guild mates but when we down a boss and I end up passing on gear they need I never hear an 'oh sweet one less person to worry about rolling against me, lucky me'.

 

You should be thankful, I spent multiple millions(it wasn't easy) to help down that boss and help others score loot.

 

Some people love carrots more than others I suppose, especially golden ones.

Edited by MSpectre
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I think that the current system is working just fine as it is. Numerous individuals have already brought up the stock itemization problem and honestly if we couldn't learn schematics from mods on the GTN, the market would never stabilize and the lucky few designated guild crafters/fortunate REers would be able to continually charge astronomical prices for their wares. As it stands now, both casual and hardcore raiders can purchase mods at reasonable prices dictated by your server's stabilizer market, and crafters can still make their millions. Moreover, while I've gotten about 5 pairs of DG boots from TFB and tons of other stuff from all the other bosses, I've still never ever seen a chestpiece drop from TFB itself, no matter how many times I've run it. I remember the days before we could craft anything and you could wait through months of EV and KP runs for that last piece of columi/rakata to drop to complete your set. Now if that one piece doesn't drop, I can just craft it.

 

The other reason this is working just fine is simply because of alts. I can think of one person that I regularly raid with who doesn't have more than one 50, while most have three or more. I want to be able to use my alt for anything once I hit 50, so it's nice to be able to ding and then step into HM TFB or NiM EC capable gear from the start. If my guild needs a new toon to fulfill a particular role out of our existing raid group, why have to wait to grind out another set of gear? Similarly, if I'm trying to pug on the faction side that's not my own for ops that actually interest me, it doesn't hurt to have the best gear that I can to ensure that I actually get to raid there once in a while.

 

I also personally enjoy being self sufficient as far as gear is concerned. With the exception of some relics, implants, and a few tanking mods, I can pretty much craft whatever I want for any new toon.

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I find this rather funny in a gear-based game such as this one.

 

Just FYI, I never said an opinion about crafting. I've had a set crafted for an alt, or two and looted roughly 1.5 sets of 63 gear. And yes, skill > gear: I've seen people in BH gear and better not been able to DPS EV's first boss on HM. Which should be doable with some tionese and some columi. Thus, skill > gear. I've seen people tanking EC HM with recruit MK-2 gear and also seen people fail it with 61 gear. All in all, I find your ignorant comment rather funny. :rolleyes:

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On the flipside, imagine running SM EV for the first time in Dread Guard? Any halfway decent player would find no challenge while vastly overgearing it. Anyone finding it difficult in that gear would likely be so clueless at their class it would be painful.

Not even full DG gear will keep them alive at Soa if they stay in the middle when the floor falls down, or go the wrong way on the platforms, or lag behind the group and miss the heals. And if the clueless player is a healer, they'll likely doom the entire group by healing improperly or not at all during the descent.

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Not even full DG gear will keep them alive at Soa if they stay in the middle when the floor falls down, or go the wrong way on the platforms, or lag behind the group and miss the heals. And if the clueless player is a healer, they'll likely doom the entire group by healing improperly or not at all during the descent.

 

Exactly, but if this person have to gear himself with progression, they actually have to learn how to defeat SoA before got the best gear in the game.

 

In old times (not SWTOR) the people with the best gear killed all the bosses in progression and maybe that player was a cripple, but at least he was experienced because he did all content before the most difficult one.

 

Progression. Progression. The carrot on a stick (gear) is the reward but it's also the way to be a better player, not only the most-geared player. And I think this game totally lacks of progression. And that's why there are so many ppl with an awesome gear but with no idea about how to play.

 

Because, I'm an awesome Gunslinger, but I'm an horrible full campaing/dreadguard tank with my guardian alter because I never tank in a operation. And of course, the 1st time will be not Karaggas or EV. It will be TFB HM or EC NiM. Why do so many content if new ppl never have to play it? No sense. Progression is the solution.

Edited by Astoncam
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Not even full DG gear will keep them alive at Soa if they stay in the middle when the floor falls down, or go the wrong way on the platforms, or lag behind the group and miss the heals. And if the clueless player is a healer, they'll likely doom the entire group by healing improperly or not at all during the descent.

Absolutely. This is one of the main reasons why I keep insisting that skill is more important than gear.

 

But let's be realistic. If you had 8 people in full 63 doing Soa, all they would need to do is figure out the relatively simple mechanics. Once you know how to do the transition, that fight is a cake-walk. It's not even that hard to survive his enrage (for quite some time) wearing Rakata, how difficult would it be for Dread Guard group?

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But let's be realistic. If you had 8 people in full 63 doing Soa, all they would need to do is figure out the relatively simple mechanics. Once you know how to do the transition, that fight is a cake-walk. It's not even that hard to survive his enrage (for quite some time) wearing Rakata, how difficult would it be for Dread Guard group?
Our guild did HM 16 EV not long again. with 13 to 15 people, not sure people were in and out, we had some fresh 50's but the core were either 63 and 61 with some 63. Boss fights were a joke. However the trash before Gharj was a little taxing, at least on this healer. Think we had three healers, not sure that. No wipes, but was more difficult than I ever thought it would be. Otherwise the boss fights were a joke.

 

16 person progression groups have my respect.

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