jizerai Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 (edited) There is ONE thing I've noticed that isn't quite right. And that's this: Burning Blade - Jedi Guardian Draining Scream - Sith Juggernaut What's the difference you ask? Well, one is a burn and the other a bleed. Powertechs and Vanguards have an ability that increases their damage against burning targets. That is an actual real difference between the two sides, as a matter of synergy between classes. Mind. Blown. Right? I've made some preliminary tests on the Training Dummies with a friend, and from what I can see, his bleeds do not increase the damage output from Rain of Fire. When applying a burn effect from another player: 36 Rapid Shots: 3791236 Rapid Shots: 36845Mean: 37378.5 When applying a burn effect from myself: 36 Rapid Shots: 3757436 Rapid Shots: 37471Mean: 37522.5 When applying a bleed effect from another player (Draining Scream): 36 Rapid Shots: 3434236 Rapid Shots: 33587Mean: 33964.5 Without either burn or bleed effect: 36 Rapid Shots: 3330736 Rapid Shots: 34628Mean: 33967.5 Remember, this is a relatively small sample and may actually be incorrect - but it appears that burning effects from others do work, while bleed effects do not. Also, I have not checked that the Jedi Guardian version actually is a burn effect - but it states that it is, and should work the same way. Edited December 29, 2012 by jizerai Updated with some data to support that bleed effects are not the same as burn effects in terms of mechanics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuixupu Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 (edited) The reasons why the classes are "mirrors" of each other is for balance. If the factions had different abilities, different, it would be an absolute nightmare to balance them (it is already, apparently). If you've tracked the changes since launch, a lot of them have been tweeks based on players complaining they weren't close enough, and that one ended up being slightly faster or more powerful (i.e. the old Jedi Consular Project) Same reason why WoW continuously moved away from having faction-only abilities and classes and racial abilities, and just started homogenizing them all. This is the problem with a game sharing PVP and PVE dynamics, they always fight with each other. Edited December 28, 2012 by chuixupu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wetslampigduex Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 The reasons why the classes are "mirrors" of each other is for balance. If the factions had different abilities, different, it would be an absolute nightmare to balance them (it is already, apparently). If you've tracked the changes since launch, a lot of them have been tweeks based on players complaining they weren't close enough, and that one ended up being slightly faster or more powerful (i.e. the old Jedi Consular Project) Same reason why WoW continuously moved away from having faction-only abilities and classes and racial abilities, and just started homogenizing them all. This is the problem with a game sharing PVP and PVE dynamics, they always fight with each other. ^ This guy missed it. I did not. I'm kinda a lil upset(i Main a Powertech) and shocked no one has ever pointed it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jizerai Posted December 28, 2012 Author Share Posted December 28, 2012 ^ This guy missed it. I did not. I'm kinda a lil upset(i Main a Powertech) and shocked no one has ever pointed it out. I saw it at launch. I just thought that they would've fixed it by now. Even think I made a ticket about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 (edited) There is ONE thing I've noticed that isn't quite right. And that's this: Burning Blade - Jedi Guardian Draining Blade - Sith Juggernaut What's the difference you ask? Well, one is a burn and the other a bleed. Powertechs and Vanguards have an ability that increases their damage against burning targets. That is an actual real difference between the two sides, as a matter of synergy between classes. Mind. Blown. Right? Pretty sure there are plenty of other burn effects on the target (likely from the Vanguard/PT himself) to render this discrepancy insignificant. Hey, BW still have Blade Storm go off slower than Force Scream. Edited December 28, 2012 by Helig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jizerai Posted December 28, 2012 Author Share Posted December 28, 2012 Pretty sure there are plenty of other burn effects on the target (likely from the Vanguard/PT himself) to render this discrepancy insignificant. Hey, BW still have Blade Storm go off slower than Force Scream. That may very well be the case. But remember that this means that, lets say after a respawn, the chances of a burn effect being present on your target are increased (when compared to the Empire side) when you get back, meaning you may do increased damage to begin with. I'm not saying this is in any way significant in most matches. But it will build up over time. I'm just informing the community that there is a discrepancy between the two classes in an actual way - however small that discrepancy may be. There may be other small differences as well between other classes, but this is the only one I've found so far. It's most likely just an oversight by the developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 It's most likely just an oversight by the developers. Actually, I'm pretty sure that, from a mechanical standpoint, bleeding (or any form of internal damage) is mechanically identical to burning (or any form of elemental damage). I recall someone doing some analysis nearly a year ago wherein they found that pretty much anything that increased or was affected by elemental damage had the exact same effect upon internal damage and vice versa. "Burning" and "bleeding" are descriptive terms that mean anyone taking internal or elemental DoT damage, regardless of what damage type it is; you could replace all instances of "burning" with "bleeding" or vice versa and it wouldn't make any difference whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jizerai Posted December 28, 2012 Author Share Posted December 28, 2012 (edited) Actually, I'm pretty sure that, from a mechanical standpoint, bleeding (or any form of internal damage) is mechanically identical to burning (or any form of elemental damage). I recall someone doing some analysis nearly a year ago wherein they found that pretty much anything that increased or was affected by elemental damage had the exact same effect upon internal damage and vice versa. "Burning" and "bleeding" are descriptive terms that mean anyone taking internal or elemental DoT damage, regardless of what damage type it is; you could replace all instances of "burning" with "bleeding" or vice versa and it wouldn't make any difference whatsoever. If that is the case, then my case is definitely moot. It's the first thing I've heard about it though. I guess I'll have to do some testing myself with a friend. Edit: The problem with what you're saying is that I know Elemental and Internal have different crit chances. Doesn't have to have anything to do with it. But it makes me wonder. Anyway, I'll do some testing when I can. Edited December 28, 2012 by jizerai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Edit: The problem with what you're saying is that I know Elemental and Internal have different crit chances. The *proc relics* do, but that's based upon the assignment of one being a Tech attack and the other being a Force attack according to the relic itself. Damage type is independent of attack type, so it's not even a consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jizerai Posted December 28, 2012 Author Share Posted December 28, 2012 The *proc relics* do, but that's based upon the assignment of one being a Tech attack and the other being a Force attack according to the relic itself. Damage type is independent of attack type, so it's not even a consideration. I assume that you mean that if the attack itself was a Force attack, then it will crit based on Force Crit, and if it's a Tech attack it will crit based on Tech Crit? And not that it's actually independent, as that would mean they are based on different crit chances to begin with regardless of your attack type? I may be wrong here. But my point was more that they've made distinctions between the different types of attacks, so why wouldn't they also make distinctions between bleed, burn and poison as they've done between Force, Tech and Weapon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 But my point was more that they've made distinctions between the different types of attacks, so why wouldn't they also make distinctions between bleed, burn and poison as they've done between Force, Tech and Weapon? For the same reason they didn't make a distinction between elemental damage caused by lightning attacks, fire attacks, and freezing attacks. The distinctions are largely arbitrary and serve only to carry the specific mechanics. Poison, burning, bleeding, freezing, crushing, and all various other terms that are not explicitly attached to mechanics (melee, ranged, Force, or Tech attack type and kinetic/energy or internal/elemental) don't really make a difference. The difference between melee/range and Force/Tech only matters insofar as your primary stat will affect one rather than the other but the difference between internal/elemental and kinetic/energy is entirely arbitrary since everything that affects one affects the other in the matched pair. It's all mechanical abstractions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jizerai Posted December 29, 2012 Author Share Posted December 29, 2012 (edited) I've made some preliminary tests on the Training Dummies with a friend, and from what I can see, his bleeds do not increase the damage output from Rain of Fire. When applying a burn effect from another player: 36 Rapid Shots: 3791236 Rapid Shots: 36845Mean: 37378.5 When applying a burn effect from myself: 36 Rapid Shots: 3757436 Rapid Shots: 37471Mean: 37522.5 When applying a bleed effect from another player (Draining Scream): 36 Rapid Shots: 3434236 Rapid Shots: 33587Mean: 33964.5 Without either burn or bleed effect: 36 Rapid Shots: 3330736 Rapid Shots: 34628Mean: 33967.5 Remember, this is a relatively small sample and may actually be incorrect - but it appears that burning effects from others do work, while bleed effects do not. Also, I have not checked that the Jedi Guardian version actually is a burn effect - but it states that it is, and should work the same way. Edited December 29, 2012 by jizerai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuixupu Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Not sure if I was just really tired and misread, but I could swear there was information in the first post edited in that makes it a lot clearer what the intent of the post is, lol. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jizerai Posted December 29, 2012 Author Share Posted December 29, 2012 Not sure if I was just really tired and misread, but I could swear there was information in the first post edited in that makes it a lot clearer what the intent of the post is, lol. Sorry. I added the quote, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuixupu Posted December 29, 2012 Share Posted December 29, 2012 Ok, so I was tired and had poor reading comprehension, but not completely hallucinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jizerai Posted January 1, 2013 Author Share Posted January 1, 2013 I guess I'm one of only two people who actually care about this. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaoogaa Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 Orbital strike - interrupts caps Freighter flyby - does not Inferno grenade - doesn't stop caps Whatever the sniper engineering tree 31 pointer is called - does. These are actual differences that have yet to be changed that are imp advantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerensk Posted January 3, 2013 Share Posted January 3, 2013 I guess I'm one of only two people who actually care about this. Oh well. No, I agree. It's a very small issue but it's still an issue and should be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jizerai Posted January 3, 2013 Author Share Posted January 3, 2013 Orbital strike - interrupts caps Freighter flyby - does not Inferno grenade - doesn't stop caps Whatever the sniper engineering tree 31 pointer is called - does. These are actual differences that have yet to be changed that are imp advantages. I did not know that. If that is the case, then I agree - they should be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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