I sure think so. I mean it went from king spec to "you have to be stupid or want to die a lot" spec.

Annihilation needs a damage buff in PVE also. Given that carnage can match the sustained dps but also has crazy burst, it's hard to rationalise speccing anni at all. Edited January 14, 2013 by Galoomp

Annihilation still has the best sustained DPS of any Marauder spec. It does not need a buff.

 

There are two factors contributing to its lack of use currently:

1) PVE design has moved into a paradigm where significant downtime is baked into many boss fights. Downtime punishes Annihilation in comparison to Carnage (high ramp-up if Annihilator stacks fall off). The on-demand nature of Carnage DPS makes it better suited to current design.

 

2) Current PVP design favors burst over everything else. Likewise, no matter how much it may be the case that Annihilation bleeds force a healer to waste 1/4 of their GCDs on cleansing, it doesn't burst people dead, or make for huge scoreboard numbers.

 

The self-heal nerf was remarkably stupid, because the only rationale for Anni was survivability. Now it's not sturdy enough to justify the long ramp-up or lack of killer burst, no matter HOW good the sustained DPS actually is.

Absolutely not. Ridiculous idea. Annih is still better than most classes DPS specs.

Absolutely not. Ridiculous idea. Annih is still better than most classes DPS specs.

 

L2read "PVP" in thread title.

L2read "PVP" in thread title.

 

^

I don't think it needs a damage buff. I primarily play Anni for PvP and what i feel needs more help is the utility. Maybe add a fury building portion to dots ticking. But straight % damage to abilities, no.

Annihilation is still better in PvP than most other classes. And I made my mara back when everyone played Anni because it's awesome.

 

It's just that Carnage and Rage got buffed to be even better than that.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Monterone

L2read "PVP" in thread title.

 

I'm talking about PvP too smart guy. It's still very good compared to others. Just because it's not doing 90000k smashes on the whole enemy team doesn't mean it's not still good. Get a clue.

 

Annihilation is still better in PvP than most other classes. And I made my mara back when everyone played Anni because it's awesome.

 

It's just that Carnage and Rage got buffed to be even better than that.

 

^

Edited January 15, 2013 by Sinsavz

When was the last time any of you saw a watchman sent/anni mara in a ranked wz. It doesn't have the burst required for competitive play and the dots can be cleansed by all 3 healer classes (sorcs have to spec into their cleanse, others don't). I'm EWH on my sent and have played all 3 specs extensively, watchman/anni being my favorite and probably what I'm best at. I still often play watchman in regs to have fun and take a break from smashing. I have no incentive to bash watchman/anni, I actually have reverse bias. I'm saying it's unviable because it's unviable. Don't you think class balance should be premised on how well the spec can perform at the competitive level (rwzs)? I just need to l2p watchman and go back to lolsmashing right? http://imgur.com/dJkqa. Try doing even close to that well in a rated, where the enemy team doesn't just let you sit on one of their healers, which is what anni relies on to be effective.

 

Still better than most other specs? Better than concealment ops, arsenal mercs, and full lightning sorcs. Oh in that case watchman's fine. Srsly tho, sentinel might be my main, but my desire is to see every spec in the game become as balanced as possible for competitive PvP. I'm not saying anni is the worst spec in the game by any means, but not only is it by far the weakest sentinel/mara spec, it's also a subpar spec in general (srsly any of you who do ranked have you seen a watchman/anni in it other than in a pug/unorganized team?).

Edited January 15, 2013 by JediMasterSLC

Are you also actively advocating for...

 

All Operative DPS

AP & Shieldtech PT

31 point Immortal or Vengence Jugg

31 point Sniper builds in any tree

Sorc DPS, 31 point Sorc healing

The entire Mercenary AC

Any 31 point Assassin builds

 

Because all of the above are afflicted with just about as many (if not more) problems than any Marauder spec, including Annihilation.

 

PT has Pyro.

Juggy has hybrid tank and lolsmash

Assassin and Sniper have hybrid builds only

Sorc has bubble stun and hybrid heals (though you do sometimes see a puddler)

Op has healing

Mercenary has healing, which is subpar, and is a complete farce otherwise.

 

And we're complaining about Annihilation being "less good" because it the easiest Marauder spec to neutralize from a DPS perspective (provided that healer(s) are spamming cleanses like crazy) and it has so-so burst (like the majority of other DPS specs for other ACs)?

 

I mean, compared to ANY other AC except maybe Sin or Sniper (which is of limited utility in RWZ to begin with), Marauder is in a good place. Sure, Anni being more viable in Rated would be nifty, but that's not going to happen until BioWare reduces the focus on pure burst in PVP. The spec is WAY TOO STRONG otherwise to muck with, it just isn't suited to the current metagame.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Omophorus

Are you also actively advocating for...

 

All Operative DPS

AP & Shieldtech PT

31 point Immortal or Vengence Jugg

31 point Sniper builds in any tree

Sorc DPS, 31 point Sorc healing

The entire Mercenary AC

Any 31 point Assassin builds

 

Because all of the above are afflicted with just about as many (if not more) problems than any Marauder spec, including Annihilation.

 

PT has Pyro.

Juggy has hybrid tank and lolsmash

Assassin and Sniper have hybrid builds only

Sorc has bubble stun and hybrid heals (though you do sometimes see a puddler)

Op has healing

Mercenary has healing, which is subpar, and is a complete farce otherwise.

 

And we're complaining about Annihilation being "less good" because it the easiest Marauder spec to neutralize from a DPS perspective (provided that healer(s) are spamming cleanses like crazy) and it has so-so burst (like the majority of other DPS specs for other ACs)?

 

I mean, compared to ANY other AC except maybe Sin or Sniper (which is of limited utility in RWZ to begin with), Marauder is in a good place. Sure, Anni being more viable in Rated would be nifty, but that's not going to happen until BioWare reduces the focus on pure burst in PVP. The spec is WAY TOO STRONG otherwise to muck with, it just isn't suited to the current metagame.

 

Besides snipers, I agree that the specs you listed are weak for ranked.

 

Imo, watchman is overall:

All Operative DPS- better than scrapper/concealment, worse than df/lethality.

AP & Shieldtech PT- better than AP/tactics, about even with tank

31 point Immortal or Vengence Jugg- better than full tank, worse than full veng/vig

31 point Sniper builds in any tree- worse than all 3 full sniper specs

Sorc DPS, 31 point Sorc healing- better than full TK/lightning, worse than puddle heals, full balance/madness, and TK/lightning-balance/madness hybrid (bubble DPS).

The entire Mercenary AC- better than gunnery arsenal, about even with assault/pyro, worse than heals.

Any 31 point Assassin builds- worse than full tank, better than full infil/deception and balance/madness. They do have viable tank/middle tree, tank/shared tree, and middle tree/shared tree specs though/

 

I'll admit that sniper is the AC I know the least about, but good gunslingers I've talked to say they usually run full 31 specs, both MM/SS, sabo/eng, and df/lethality. I know there are some viable hybrids though.

 

I'm not saying anni needs fixing now or that it should take priority over fixing commandos and such. And I agree that it would be hard to make it viable in competitive play without making big changes or making it OP.

Edited January 16, 2013 by JediMasterSLC

Annihilation needs a damage buff in PVE also. Given that carnage can match the sustained dps but also has crazy burst, it's hard to rationalise speccing anni at all.

 

Looks like someone doesn't know how to play Annihilation correctly.

Carnage cannot match Annihilation's sustained dps.

Looks like someone doesn't know how to play Annihilation correctly.

Carnage cannot match Annihilation's sustained dps.

 

True statement, but making that work in the "real world" of progression is easier said than done.

 

In some fights, fine-tuning tactics can increase uptime and reduce the odds that Annihilator stacks will fall off, giving Annihilation the edge.

 

In some fights, you can't avoid downtime, and as soon as Annihilator stacks fall off, Carnage pulls ahead in the sustained DPS race no matter how good you are (especially if it happens more than once).

 

The problem isn't Annihilation, the problem is design philosophy for PVE endgame. Changing Annihilation is an inferior option to slight modifications to how encounters are built.

 

Likewise, from a PVP perspective the DPS of the spec isn't lacking, but how it's applied is not ideally suited to current WZs or the current state of the metagame. Battlefield design and TTK are what make Annihilation inferior, not Annihilation itself. There's no way to tweak Annihilation for PVP without complete resdesign that will address its performances in current warzones or with current average TTK.

All DoT trees in this game need to be looked at. When designing those trees the devs looked at other classes and decided they need some dot classes too. However they didn't understand game theory, give and take, min maxing, tradeoffs, or whatever you want to call it.

 

For instance my Madness Sorc has to use a GCD to apply a dot or to do an instant ability. The dot does 2000 damage over 15 seconds, with ticks every 3 seconds, no instant tick. My instant ability does 2000 damage instantly. So I get no reward in DPS for using a dot. However my dot can be purged/cleansed or the target can die before 15 seconds is up. So there is actually a penalty for going with a dot over an instant ability. Plus dots do not interrupt captures or break stealth, so again no benefit, but they do break CC, so you are actually punished.

 

I will say anni specced maras are in a better place than leth snipers or madness sorcs, because you don't waste the whole GCD just to apply a dot, the dot is just a bonus. Or not exactly a bonus, but in addition to.