I won't be able to make a full argument at this time, but I will say that Vitiate, while powerful, has shown very limited combat abilities. Vitiate's greatest displays of power seem to require extensive preparation, whereas Plagueis has been able to unleash massive devastation with little effort while practically dying.

That's to get the ball rolling.

*waits for Legend's wall of text response*

For reference a comparison between Darth Caedus and the Sith Emperor:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6603433&postcount=414

Your assessment of Sith Emperor is inadequate.

This is the most comprehensive and well-researched assessment of Sith Emperor in this forum: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=703103

I won't be able to make a full argument at this time, but I will say that Vitiate, while powerful, has shown very limited combat abilities. Vitiate's greatest displays of power seem to require extensive preparation, whereas Plagueis has been able to unleash massive devastation with little effort while practically dying.

 

That's to get the ball rolling.

 

*waits for Legend's wall of text response*

I have already done my homework, link provided above.

Vitiate is not just powerful but canonically supremely powerful. In addition, his combat record is extremely impressive by mythos standards.

You talk about devastation? Check out the capabilities of Sith Emperor's apprentice: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=707012

Now imagine what Sith Emperor himself is capable of.

Plagueis's feat of "all about atomize" some defenseless humans is being blown out of proportion by some people. In contrast, Sith Emperor can do this to even Force-users and armored droids.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan:

I'd say that the power with which Satele Shan destroyed a part of a large cliff is more potent then the power that is required to "all but atomize" some defenseless humans. Heck, Satele Shan "all but atomized" some hexes droids, if I remember correctly.

One more thing, Muun do not loose powers even while being heavily injured, this is implied in Star Wars: Darth Plagueis:

This is the ranking that I propose:

- Sith Emperor

- Darth Plagueis

- Exar Kun

- Darth Caedus

*waits for Legend's wall of text response*

Your assessment of Sith Emperor is inadequate.

 

This is the most comprehensive and well-researched assessment of Sith Emperor in this forum: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=703103

That said your assessment is far from perfect.

My assessment is perfectly adequate, and your criticisms leveled at it were ultimately proven inadequate and in some cases verging on ridiculous. That said I respect your assessment, but I don't believe it contradicts my own explicitly.

 

That said your assessment is far from perfect.

Your assessment is flawed but you are not likely to understand, you overlook lot of stuff about Sith Emperor (do not properly assess his canonical position and known feats). You have this mindset of "me being always correct." In-fact, your assessment about Sidious is also filled with lot of hype and assumptions but as usual you make it seem like as if Sith Emperor is a joke in comparison to him and you want people to believe that a guy who almost got killed by Mara Jade is stronger then Sith Emperor? You've got to be kidding me.

This entire ranking procedure is flawed to be precise. Where do you rank lets say Darth Nox and Darth Thanaton?

Darth Nox wielded "combined might of 6 powerful Sith Lords" and this kind of power was needed to defeat Darth Thanaton.

Also, where do you rank Exal Kressh? She destroyed an entire space station with her powers.

Your assessment is flawed but you are not likely to understand, you overlook lot of stuff about Sith Emperor (do not properly assess his canonical position and known feats). You have this mindset of "me being always correct." In-fact, your assessment about Sidious is also filled with lot of hype and assumptions but as usual you make it seem like as if Sith Emperor is a joke in comparison to him and you want people to believe that a guy who almost got killed by Mara Jade is stronger then Sith Emperor? You've got to be kidding me.

 

This entire ranking procedure is flawed to be precise. Where do you rank lets say Darth Nox and Darth Thanaton?

 

Darth Nox wielded "combined might of 6 powerful Sith Lords" and this kind of power was needed to defeat Darth Thanaton.

 

Also, where do you rank Exal Kressh? She destroyed an entire space station with her powers.

All in all, claiming I have a "me being always correct" mentality while simultaneously asserting the legitimacy of your own arguments (none of which you have yet to concede) comes across as a tad hypocritical to me.

In regards to the Sith Emperor vs Sidious. I don't believe he is a joke in comparison and if it comes across as that way I can assure you its unintentional. The only thing I would assert is that Sidious is very solidly superior to the Sith Emperor in almost every respect. And there is really little if any room for disputing that fact.

And I'd already explained, we do not know what Nox, Thanaton's and even Kressh' position is in regards to the hundreds of other Force Users in the Sith Empire. To place them on the list would be to claim them more powerful than all other members of the Dark Council who ever where, and then some, I'm not prepared to do that.

On top of that Nox and Thanaton are grossly lacking in assessable feats. We can recognise their power, but we simply do not possess enough information to even begin to rank them. Surely you can see this.

That said, I'm not confident they do deserve a place on any of these lists. With maybe the exception of Nox I don't think they surpass the likes of Darth Bane, Malgus and Traya, to whom they would have to contend.

P.S. There are a wealth of exceptional circumstances regarding that "duel" between Mara Jade and Caedus, mainly that Caedus was never actually in a position to attack with his lightsaber, it is not grounds for anything much.

I'd rather not bring in personal bias to reasoned debate, if I am correct by arguments will demonstrate it, if I am not then you should have little trouble disputing them. Yet you've yet to provide argument that holds up to scrutiny in regards to the Caedus vs Sith Emperor debate. If your willing to continue that debate, as opposed to simply deciding I am wrong and will never understand why, then by all means do. But in so far I've found your arguments inadequate I'm afraid.

All of us are biased about these matters one way or another, do not try to pretend that you are not.

I have done my homework about Sith Emperor as per your favorite criteria and presented it to the community, now you do yours after thoroughly checking my latest work. It contains all the answers you need.

Unfortunately, this is your response:

My assessment is perfectly adequate, and your criticisms leveled at it were ultimately proven inadequate and in some cases verging on ridiculous. That said I respect your assessment, but I don't believe it contradicts my own explicitly.

 

That said your assessment is far from perfect.

This reinforces my perspective about you that you simply chose to ignore my latest assessment about known capabilities of Sith Emperor. My criticisms are not inadequate, you just choose to ignore them or find gaps in them to exploit.

Your assessment of Sith Emperor is flawed and inadequate which is apparent from my assessment about the same character. You can only revisit your assessment after you pay proper attention to my homework. Otherwise, you will just falsely reiterate that my criticisms have been inadequate.

All in all, claiming I have a "me being always correct" mentality while simultaneously asserting the legitimacy of your own arguments (none of which you have yet to concede) comes across as a tad hypocritical to me.

I concede where I feel it becomes necessary, I am not rigid without reason. If an argument has not ended, it has not ended for a reason. You have homework to do.

In regards to the Sith Emperor vs Sidious. I don't believe he is a joke in comparison and if it comes across as that way I can assure you its unintentional. The only thing I would assert is that Sidious is very solidly superior to the Sith Emperor in almost every respect. And there is really little if any room for disputing that fact.

Your assessment about both characters does gives this kind of impression. Key difference is that Sidious is much more explored and well-defined character in comparison to Sith Emperor who is a newcomer to the mythos. This is why, comparison between these two is unfair at the moment. Their is so much information about Sidious to consult and use, simple.

And no! Sidious is not solidly superior to Sith Emperor in almost every respect. You try to present this picture with lot of hype and personal theories in favor of Sidious as apparent from this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=685181

When I will have ample time, I will address all of your responses. For the time being, make do with my homework.

And I'd already explained, we do not know what Nox, Thanaton's and even Kressh' position is in regards to the hundreds of other Force Users in the Sith Empire. To place them on the list would be to claim them more powerful than all other members of the Dark Council who ever where, and then some, I'm not prepared to do that.

 

On top of that Nox and Thanaton are grossly lacking in assessable feats. We can recognise their power, but we simply do not possess enough information to even begin to rank them. Surely you can see this.

And this is why the ranking criteria that you are promoting is flawed, some characters are more well-defined then others and your ranking criteria favors them over lesser defined ones.

That said, I'm not confident they do deserve a place on any of these lists. With maybe the exception of Nox I don't think they surpass the likes of Darth Bane, Malgus and Traya, to whom they would have to contend.

You don't think? See, your perceptions are not necessarily true.

None of these Sith Lords have mastered the Force in ways like Darth Nox have, neither have found a way to wield the "combined might of several (powerful) Force-users" to contend with Darth Nox.

Think about it, Khem Val alone was a powerhouse and Darth Nox not just wielded his powers and might but that of 5 other dangerous Force-users. Darth Nox is simply too strong for anybody to challenge barring few in the entire mythos. Extremely talented Sith Inquisitors are the mightiest bad@sses among the Sith in the mythos. Sith Emperor himself is a Sith Inquisitor.

In-fact, Sidious also progressed from Warrior to Inquisitor curriculum to improve his abilities.

P.S. There are a wealth of exceptional circumstances regarding that "duel" between Mara Jade and Caedus, mainly that Caedus was never actually in a position to attack with his lightsaber, it is not grounds for anything much.

And what are these wealth of exceptional circumstances?

By this logic, many duels have some kind of circumstances affiliated with them. Unless odds are heavily stacked against an individual, he is unlikely to loose if he is superior to the opposition or rely on cheap tricks to pull off a victory.

Without going to in-depth into the comparison between these two individuals, I would say this: Darth Plagueis is likely the second most powerful Sith Lord in the entire Banite line, he certainly stands head and shoulders above Vader and he was easily a match for Sidious himself, he has serious power in every single sphere of Force usage, I do not believe the Sith Emperor can claim the same.

The Sith Emperor's combative abilities by comparison are amateur hour, I wouldn't even believe the statement that the Sith Emperor himself stands up to either Exar Kun or Darth Traya in a one on one confrontation, I believe that his combative powers are seriously lacking and that is why he falls short.

Wait, wait....this has been about Force combat ability/application the whole time?? .....Or just for this?

No, it's about Force prowess over-all, however offensive combat abilities are something the Sith Emperor lacks in by comparison to others, which is why i think he falls short of so many others.

No, it's about Force prowess over-all, however offensive combat abilities are something the Sith Emperor lacks in by comparison to others, which is why i think he falls short of so many others.

Ah....k I figured but just wanted to be sure, though yeah he does. Why Plageuis is below Vitiate in the first place I have no idea.

It seems you've summoned him Aurbere *slow clap*

Edit: Legend, I will respond to you shortly.

Vitiate is not just powerful but canonically supremely powerful.

Drop the 'supremely' bit. I don't care what he's called. I only care about what he's done.

You talk about devastation? Check out the capabilities of Sith Emperor's apprentice: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=707012

 

Now imagine what Sith Emperor himself is capable of.

Good for Exal Kressh. I don't think I will imagine what the Emperor is capable of, instead I will refer to what he has actually done. It's how I've operated in the past, and how I will continue to operate.

Plagueis's feat of "all about atomize" some defenseless humans is being blown out of proportion by some people. In contrast, Sith Emperor can do this to even Force-users and armored droids.

Destroying armored humans with telekinesis requires much more power than destroying others with Force lightning. There is a very big difference.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan:

 

 

he saw variations of his own life and death played out over and over in every conceivable way, shape, and form.

Beni, Chapter 3 has me stymied, is this the correct context?

One more thing, Muun do not loose powers even while being heavily injured, this is implied in Star Wars: Darth Plagueis:

 

 

Sidious pivoted to see his Master limp into the room, mouth, chin, and neck concealed behind a breath mask or transpirator of some sort. Most of the vibroblade wounds had healed, but his skin looked especially wan. Sidious had been wondering if Plagueis had been weakened by the attack, but he saw now that, for all the punishment his body had sustained at the hands of the Maladian assassins, the Muun was no less strong in the Force.

 

“Your thoughts betray you,” Plagueis said. “Do you think that Malak’s powers were weakened by Revan’s lightsaber? Bane by being encrusted in orbalisks? Do you think Gravid’s young apprentice was hindered by the prosthesis she was forced to wear after fighting him?”

 

“No, Master.”

 

“Soon I will be stronger than you can possibly imagine.”

 

Plagueis forced himself to swallow, then said, “But come, we have much to discuss.”

Wow, that would actually be effective if I didn't own that novel. Too bad I do. You've taken that quote completely wrong and you've misunderstood my argument. Let me suggest two things for you to do:

1. Don't post quotes out of context and assume that they will sway your adversary.

2. Always assume that I am smarter than you. Your best option now is to give up to spare yourself further embarrassment.

No, it's not the correct context Aurbere, because Scourge also had visions of their Victory, and Visions of their escape even. All the other visions were obsolete, as he believed only one of them.

Also, those preminitions were the future, every possible outcome, doesn't mean it's all things Vitiate could have been able to do.

Tl;DR, no, not the right context.

Edit: Oh, and can we please stop acknowledging this ridiculous fanboy as an actual debater and get back to the debates that matter? Rest of us are in agreement, he won't sway, what we're doing now is pointless, just change it Beni.

No, it's not the correct context Aurbere, because Scourge also had visions of their Victory, and Visions of their escape even. All the other visions were obsolete, as he believed only one of them.

 

Also, those preminitions were the future, every possible outcome, doesn't mean it's all things Vitiate could have been able to do.

 

Tl;DR, no, not the right context.

Thanks, Sel.

I agree with Selenial.

If I may propose something: Master Fay is too much of an unknown, whilst I still think that she is one of the most powerful in the Order of that day, I do think she simply lacks the information required to make it a solid judgement, therefore i agree with others whom previously have stated she's just not explored enough.

I agree with Selenial.

 

If I may propose something: Master Fay is too much of an unknown, whilst I still think that she is one of the most powerful in the Order of that day, I do think she simply lacks the information required to make it a solid judgement, therefore i agree with others whom previously have stated she's just not explored enough.

As Do I, I actually find it weird that she is Above both Jaina and Windu, the Latter being described as "the second baddest Jedi" of his time. Just my personal short thoughts on the matter.

I agree with Selenial.

 

If I may propose something: Master Fay is too much of an unknown, whilst I still think that she is one of the most powerful in the Order of that day, I do think she simply lacks the information required to make it a solid judgement, therefore i agree with others whom previously have stated she's just not explored enough.

I just read Blast Radius, and I do agree.

As Do I, I actually find it weird that she is Above both Jaina and Windu, the Latter being described as "the second baddest Jedi" of his time. Just my personal short thoughts on the matter.

By dueling Mace is sure, Force prowess? Not so much.

I agree with Selenial.

 

If I may propose something: Master Fay is too much of an unknown, whilst I still think that she is one of the most powerful in the Order of that day, I do think she simply lacks the information required to make it a solid judgement, therefore i agree with others whom previously have stated she's just not explored enough.

To be honest I think we have enough to make comparison. But I have an article on that so we'll discuss this later.

Drop the 'supremely' bit. I don't care what he's called. I only care about what he's done.

And why should I drop it? Are you willing to overlook similar claims for other characters including your favorites? It is absolutely relevant interpretation of Emperor's power in the lore.

Here is a list of what he's done:

1. Conquered an entire planet as a child, killing many in the process during his rise to power (including the planet's ruler, a prominent Sith Lord of the era).
   
2. Controlled the outcome of the most dangerous ritual in history (which destroyed the environment of an entire planet) to enhance his already formidable power and prolong his life, a feat that 8000 other Sith Lords couldn't pull off even with their combined might in comparison. Plagueis, by his own admission, was not an expert in the matters of Sith Sorcery and could not have pulled off this feat either if replaced with SIth Emperor.
   
3. Reconstituted a mighty Sith Empire, ruled over it for centuries. Defeated and killed many enemies during this time (including iconic Jedi warriors and rebellious Dark Council members, at times, felled whole Strike Teams of powerful enemies). In contrast, Plagueis have never been tested so thoroughly during his life and Sith Emperor is much more battle-tested then him.
   

Good enough?

Good for Exal Kressh. I don't think I will imagine what the Emperor is capable of, instead I will refer to what he has actually done. It's how I've operated in the past, and how I will continue to operate.

Your premise is flawed unfortunately. A character's strength(s) are not just identified on the basis of his own feats but also how he stacks up in comparison to his surroundings. Sith Emperor became more powerful then many iconic characters in the mythos including Tulak Hord, Marka Ragnos, Exar Kun, Darth Traya, Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus, Revan..........the list is so big. Emperor's own apprentice have very impressive feats to her name which in turn positively reflects on the capabilities and power of the Emperor himself, he can do BETTER. In this manner, we have a another reasonable "measuring stick" for Emperor's capabilities to consider.

Destroying armored humans with telekinesis requires much more power than destroying others with Force lightning. There is a very big difference.

Sith Emperor "all but atomized" heavily armored T3-M4 droid with his telekinetic abilities. In addition, Scourge saw visions of his termination at the hands of Emperor in every conceivable way which covers the possibility of his atomization at the hands of Sith Emperor from his powers. Clear enough?

Beni, Chapter 3 has me stymied, is this the correct context?

You mean chapter 28?

Wow, that would actually be effective if I didn't own that novel. Too bad I do. You've taken that quote completely wrong and you've misunderstood my argument. Let me suggest two things for you to do:

 

1. Don't post quotes out of context and assume that they will sway your adversary.

2. Always assume that I am smarter than you. Your best option now is to give up to spare yourself further embarrassment.

Actually I see a connection between that revelation and the events that took place during Plagueis's battle with assassins. Plaguies's powers didn't diminish by the wounds inflicted upon him by the assassins and this is why he was able to "all but atomize" them. No rocket science here.

I am not going to end up embarrassed because I can connect the dots better then you.

Thanks, Sel.

You take her seriously? Who until recently didn't even knew that Sith Emperor is an ancient Sith Lord? Says a lot.

Edit: Oh, and can we please stop acknowledging this ridiculous fanboy as an actual debater and get back to the debates that matter? Rest of us are in agreement, he won't sway, what we're doing now is pointless, just change it Beni.

You should keep your attitude under check, my tolerance have limits.

I am not going to respect you just because you are a girl. You need to be respectful to others to earn their respect.

Don't make Star Wars an obsession and basis to ridicule others. It is just Sci-Fi.

All of us are biased about these matters one way or another, do not try to pretend that you are not.

 

I have done my homework about Sith Emperor as per your favorite criteria and presented it to the community, now you do yours after thoroughly checking my latest work. It contains all the answers you need.

 

Unfortunately, this is your response:

Personal attacks/critiques leveled at reasoned argument are, in this way, unnecessary and crass.

Regardless this is the current state of the debate as you left it, and I see no material in your analysis that could be used as evidence to dispute those particular points. And I am troubled to find that you mislead your readers into thinking the Sith Emperor is capable of tearing down the Sith Citadel, a point which I have demonstrated to be fraudulent.

That said your assessment does bring to light interesting and new information, again I do not see anything that explicitly refutes my conclusion, but I'd be happy to alter my analysis to incorporate them, though I doubt a different outcome will be reached. Don't assume I am simply ignoring your points, and don't assume that an argument with gaps in is a credible one. If there are gaps in your argument, it is inadequate, and I will exploit them.

Also it is generally poor form to tell people to "do your homework", much better to make your arguments explicit.

Your assessment about both characters does gives this kind of impression. Key difference is that Sidious is much more explored and well-defined character in comparison to Sith Emperor who is a newcomer to the mythos. This is why, comparison between these two is unfair at the moment. Their is so much information about Sidious to consult and use, simple.

And no! Sidious is not solidly superior to Sith Emperor in almost every respect. You try to present this picture with lot of hype and personal theories in favor of Sidious as apparent from this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=685181

And this is why the ranking criteria that you are promoting is flawed, some characters are more well-defined then others and your ranking criteria favors them over lesser defined ones.

But as I have said before if you think this "ranking criteria" to be flawed and pointless, I am confused as to why you insist on continuing to participate. Nobody said you have to accept this list, and you are free to ignore it.

You don't think? See, your perceptions are not necessarily true.

 

None of these Sith Lords have mastered the Force in ways like Darth Nox have, neither have found a way to wield the "combined might of several (powerful) Force-users" to contend with Darth Nox.

 

Think about it, Khem Val alone was a powerhouse and Darth Nox not just wielded his powers and might but that of 5 other dangerous Force-users. Darth Nox is simply too strong for anybody to challenge barring few in the entire mythos. Extremely talented Sith Inquisitors are the mightiest bad@sses among the Sith in the mythos. Sith Emperor himself is a Sith Inquisitor.

 

In-fact, Sidious also progressed from Warrior to Inquisitor curriculum to improve his abilities.

Remembering that "I think" =/= fact.

And what are these wealth of exceptional circumstances?

 

By this logic, many duels have some kind of circumstances affiliated with them. Unless odds are heavily stacked against an individual, he is unlikely to loose if he is superior to the opposition or rely on cheap tricks to pull off a victory.

Secondly, the sum of all the exceptional circumstances is that Caedus was unable to bring his Force powers or his lightsaber abilities to bear in that 'duel' at all. Therefore we cannot use it as material for judging him in those fields, to do so is illogical. Instead I'd draw your attention to Caedus' other duels in which he did have full use of his abilities.

Namely his confrontation with Kyle Katarn, and four other Jedi Knights. Kyle Katarn being a Jedi Battlemaster and one of the most renowned members of the New Jedi Order, which I'm sure others will confirm. In that duel Caedus effectively schooled them, Katarn was only able to have his attacks connect once, let alone actually bypass his defenses. Caedus was simply far to fast for them, micromanaging them easily, and in the end defeated them effortlessly. He also managed to fight on par and injure his grandfather, Grand Master Luke Skywalker himself.

Given that, and given that Kyle Katarn and Luke Skywalker are Mara's betters. I have no doubt that in a confrontation where Caedus could have brought his full abilities to bear, Mara Jade would have been utterly destroyed.

As Do I, I actually find it weird that she is Above both Jaina and Windu, the Latter being described as "the second baddest Jedi" of his time. Just my personal short thoughts on the matter.

Actually I see a connection between that revelation and the events that took place during Plagueis's battle with assassins. Plaguies's powers didn't diminish by the wounds inflicted upon him by the assassins and this is why he was able to "all but atomize" them. No rocket science here.

 

I am not going to end up embarrassed because I can connect the dots better then you.

When injured Plagueis was forced to divert his attention to keeping himself alive which would have demanded both physical attention and Force exertion - meaning his ability to attack with the Force would have been diminished.

What the novel is saying here is that those injuries were not permanent, Plagueis recovered from his wounds and became more powerful than ever, refuting Sidious' assumption that it may have permanently weakened him.

All in all you have failed to understand (or deliberately overlooked) the difference between temporary and permanent effects, whether that is a cause for embarrassment is up to you to decide I suppose. Its certainly not a surprise.

Plagueis's feat of "all about atomize" some defenseless humans is being blown out of proportion by some people. In contrast, Sith Emperor can do this to even Force-users and armored droids.

 

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan:

 

 

he saw variations of his own life and death played out over and over in every conceivable way, shape, and form.