KeyboardNinja Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 (edited) Does anyone have any idea of why this would be happening? … 19:19:43.736 Tam activates Resilience. 19:19:43.736 Tam gains Resilience. … 19:19:46.368 Tam loses Resilience. … 19:19:46.380 Titan 6's Huge Grenade hits Tam for 29789 energy damage, causing 29789 threat. 19:19:46.380 Titan 6 kills Tam. I'm in tank spec, so I have a 5 second Resilience. I activated it at 19:43.736, and it apparently fell off at 19:46.368 (2.6 seconds later), coincidentally just PRIOR to the attack roll from Huge Grenade. And before you ask, it's easy enough to confirm that Huge Grenade is in fact a tech attack: http://www.torhead.com/ability/cBKqC0g/huge-grenade I saw something similar a little later in the same HM S&V run: 19:53:55.796 Tam activates Resilience. 19:53:55.796 Tam gains Resilience. ... 19:53:58.074 Tam loses Resilience. ... 19:53:58.086 Operations Chief's Terminate hits Tam for 32360 energy damage, causing 32360 threat. 19:53:58.086 Operations Chief kills Tam. Activated at 53:55.796, lost at 53:58.074 (2.3 seconds later), an instant prior to the attack roll which killed me. My best theory at this point is that this is a rather odd consequence of the well-documented race condition in the engine's event handling. The more widely observed consequence of this race condition is the out-of-order logging that plagues combat logs everywhere. Regardless of the source of this bug, it's annoying and really needs to be fixed. It's *literally* killing people, and if we had needed to burn a battle rez at some earlier point in the fight, it would have resulted in a wipe. I've anecdotally seen similar things with other cooldowns (Battle Readiness in particular), but I can't give evidence which is as definitive. Incidentally, the full combat log for the above can be found here: http://www.torparse.com/a/215194 Edited May 8, 2013 by KeyboardNinja Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzerfire Posted May 9, 2013 Share Posted May 9, 2013 (edited) Aha! I remember this happening, good thing torparse remembers your own logs cause I wouldn't have bothered going through 50+ documents to try and find the S&V ones. I knew I wasn't crazy when I thought the nade hit through shroud. 21:38:20.372 Silentstorm activates Force Shroud. 21:38:20.373 Silentstorm gains Force Shroud. ------ 21:38:22.408 Titan 6's Huge Grenade hits Silentstorm for 30735 energy damage, causing 30735 threat. 21:38:22.410 Titan 6's Huge Grenade effect of Huge Grenade fades from Silentstorm. ------ 21:38:25.385 Silentstorm loses Force Shroud. Same fight, working this time. 21:35:31.065 Silentstorm gains Force Shroud. 21:35:33.757 Titan 6's Huge Grenade hits Silentstorm for 0 damage, causing 1 threat. 21:35:33.759 Titan 6's Huge Grenade effect of Huge Grenade fades from Silentstorm. 21:35:36.173 Silentstorm loses Force Shroud. And managed to find another fight with the damage taken bug. 22:37:16.782 Silentstorm activates Force Shroud. 22:37:16.782 Silentstorm gains Force Shroud. ---- 22:37:17.664 Titan 6's Huge Grenade hits Silentstorm for 30293 energy damage, causing 30293 threat. (5724 absorbed) ----- 22:37:21.917 Silentstorm loses Force Shroud. Link to first fight with bug: http://www.torparse.com/a/199503/6/0/Log Link to second fight with bug: http://www.torparse.com/a/201569/11/0/Log So fix this, and I guess we should use rakata medpack/overcharge saber or simply be topped off by the healers before it lands and/or sorc bubble. Also, this only happened 3 out of the 30-40 or so force shroud/huge grenade sequences I looked at, could just be a random error. Edited May 10, 2013 by Panzerfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MobileCover Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 While I am unable to currently link the logs I have also had this happen to me twice over the course of the 4 attempts it took our raid to down Titan 6. Also sorry for the tangent, but while on the topic of Resilience. In TFB HM it doesn't cleanse the Corrosive Slime DoT, whereas in SM it did. Same with the Terror's scream, in SM it resists the damage but in HM I have only had it resist approximately 1 out of 10 instances of the scream damage. I have been unable to find anything that tells me whether this is intended or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grallmate Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 While I am unable to currently link the logs I have also had this happen to me twice over the course of the 4 attempts it took our raid to down Titan 6. Also sorry for the tangent, but while on the topic of Resilience. In TFB HM it doesn't cleanse the Corrosive Slime DoT, whereas in SM it did. Same with the Terror's scream, in SM it resists the damage but in HM I have only had it resist approximately 1 out of 10 instances of the scream damage. I have been unable to find anything that tells me whether this is intended or not. I've found the same on my Shadow. I just assumed it was intended that Scream couldn't be resisted in HM to prevent Shadows from cheesing the mechanic. Ironically, it can now be reflected but still applies the debuff. I also noticed around 1.7 that Resilience wouldn't cleanse the Corrosive Slime like it previously had. I haven't noticed the issue you outlined KBN but I haven't been tanking 55 Endgame on my Shadow since 2.0 hit. Guardian buffs ftw! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpftard Posted May 10, 2013 Share Posted May 10, 2013 It has happened twice for me on Titan. I just attributed it to "Hmmpf...I musta just hit it too soon!" I thought it was just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzerfire Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Bump /5char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyronamics Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Possibly wrong but I recall hearing at some point that anything which causes automatic misses is just increasing defensive stats so that normally, yes, it will miss/resist. But if an attacker has enough accuracy it can get rolls which beat the defensive increase and let the hit through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheresMyWhisky Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Thanks for your post I have had this as well and just thought I had screwed up but having seen this thread I went back and checked my logs and have exactly the same as you on both titan 6 and Olok's terminate. So I hope the devs look at this soon because as you say this must be killing a lot of shadows /Bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancaglon Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 But if an attacker has enough accuracy it can get rolls which beat the defensive increase and let the hit through. NPCs, even bosses, aren't supposed to *have* accuracy over 100%. If these S&V bosses DO, then it is most certainly something that directly discriminates against Shadow tanks, because we have lower mitigation than our counterparts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 NPCs, even bosses, aren't supposed to *have* accuracy over 100%. If these S&V bosses DO, then it is most certainly something that directly discriminates against Shadow tanks, because we have lower mitigation than our counterparts. The devs have stated that they are capable of adding an "autohit" tag to an attack (Riposte has this tag for players), but they only use it for wipe mechanisms or things that players should *never* be able to resist (phase change control/damage effects). Most attacks against a tank *should* be able to be resisted, especially the attacks that are being mentioned here. It should also be mentioned that the bug isn't that Resilience isn't working; it's that Resilience is getting taken off *early*, right before the attack you want to avoid hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeyboardNinja Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 The devs have stated that they are capable of adding an "autohit" tag to an attack (Riposte has this tag for players), but they only use it for wipe mechanisms or things that players should *never* be able to resist (phase change control/damage effects). Most attacks against a tank *should* be able to be resisted, especially the attacks that are being mentioned here. It should also be mentioned that the bug isn't that Resilience isn't working; it's that Resilience is getting taken off *early*, right before the attack you want to avoid hits. I'm not sure if its actually getting stripped early, or if that's just the out of order logging being annoying. The other combat log snippet posted here shows a failed resilience *without* death, and it looks like resilience wasn't stripped in that case and timed out normally. In any case, resilience does sometimes work on both Huge Grenade and Terminate, so it seems clear that these attacks are not simply accuracy-boosted (unless the accuracy boost is only just enough to make it RNG with the boost to resist granted by resilience). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I'm not sure if its actually getting stripped early, or if that's just the out of order logging being annoying. The other combat log snippet posted here shows a failed resilience *without* death, and it looks like resilience wasn't stripped in that case and timed out normally. I've had it stripped off early a few times, but there have been a few other weird cases. I've seen the resist flag fly up and I've still taken damage, I've seen the resist flag fly up and taken no direct damage but suffered the secondary effects take place (i.e. get hit with a DoT or knockback effect), and I've seen the resist flag fly up and taken the damage but *not* taken the secondary effects. The problem I have is that it's not really predictable, and, more often than not, it behaves exactly as expected. It's just weird when it *doesn't*, especially when it doesn't deviate from the normal behavior in a normal way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blockheadsk Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 The reason why Resilience is being taken off "early" is due to the out of order nature of the comat logs. If you look at the time of death, really any time you die, you will notice that you lose ALL buffs, gain Sprint, then the attack that killed you is registered in the log. However I don't really know if you can call this an our of order scenario; you have to lose your buffs when you die, and it always happens at basically the exact same time (in hundreds of milliseconds). I'm more inclined to believe that its either one of two scenarios: Resilience's effect isn't properly applying, or these attacks have a much higher accuracy. So it's still something to look into by the devs for sure, but it's not the case of the logs showing out of order events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancaglon Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 (edited) However I don't really know if you can call this an our of order scenario; you have to lose your buffs when you die, and it always happens at basically the exact same time (in hundreds of milliseconds). I bet the timestamps in the logs are client-side generated, and that an out-of-order data packet (due to network congestion/processing) could easily be logged/processed in just the way that the log shows -- but the reason for it being stripped is almost certainly due to death, as you suggest, because Resilience did not work correctly. Edited May 17, 2013 by Ancaglon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzerfire Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 One thing about Terminate, I'm almost certain that you can shield/defend it and cannot use Force Shroud/Resilience.I can't see how someone in the group can add accuracy to a boss, unless our 5% accuracy debuff actually adds 5% accuracy, giving bosses a 5% extra chance to hit. But as far as I know Force Shroud/Resilience increases resist chance by a couple of 100 percent, maybe 200 or 300%.There could be a difference in Force Shroud and Resilience, but again they both succesfully failed to resist Huge Grenade so it's unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Dreselus Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 It could also be a bug not with the ability but with the instance. I have had far too many people die behind the rocks, while they were clearly crouching, unable to move and had the cover buff up long before the wave reached them. Also what attack is Terminate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Also what attack is Terminate? Terminate is the cast attack of the Operations Chief boss. It's an F/T + K/E attack that deals ~50k damage pre-mitigation, which means it hits a Shadow for ~32.5k and Guard/VGs for ~22.5k. Of course, Shadows and Guardians *should* be able to ignore it with Resilience and Saber Reflect, respectively, but sometimes, for some reason, it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Dreselus Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Terminate is the cast attack of the Operations Chief boss. It's an F/T + K/E attack that deals ~50k damage pre-mitigation, which means it hits a Shadow for ~32.5k and Guard/VGs for ~22.5k. Of course, Shadows and Guardians *should* be able to ignore it with Resilience and Saber Reflect, respectively, but sometimes, for some reason, it doesn't. I see never noticed it when healing as being a substantial problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I see never noticed it when healing as being a substantial problem. It's a big deal for Shadows because it's all or close to all of your hp. For Guards and VGs, it a big burst but not massively worrisome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Dreselus Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 It's a big deal for Shadows because it's all or close to all of your hp. For Guards and VGs, it a big burst but not massively worrisome. Makes sense. Would not know as all the Shadows I know have rerolled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Makes sense. Would not know as all the Shadows I know have rerolled. And I can pretty much guarantee that the spikiness issue is the reason why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheresMyWhisky Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Had this last night again and my resilenec did not fall off early [22:17:56.912] [@Òban] [@Òban] [Resilience {812822560768000}] [Event {836045448945472}: AbilityActivate {836045448945479}] () [22:17:56.912] [@Òban] [@Òban] [Resilience {812822560768000}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Resilience {812822560768000}] () [22:17:56.926] [@Òban] [Operations Chief {3157548286869504}:473004111569] [Project {876461091192832}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (1162* kinetic {836045448940873}) <2674> [22:17:57.466] [Rail Turret {3158020733272064}:473004218767] [@Òban] [Rail Shot {3158029323206922}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (0 -resist {836045448945507}) <1> [22:17:58.004] [@Eolair] [@Òban] [underworld Medicine {807294937858048}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Heal {836045448945500}] (10267*) <3998> [22:17:58.214] [Operations Chief {3157548286869504}:473004111569] [@Òban] [Terminate {3146334127259648}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Knockdown {3146334127259906}] () [22:17:58.215] [Operations Chief {3157548286869504}:473004111569] [@Òban] [Terminate {3146334127259648}] [ApplyEffect {836045448945477}: Damage {836045448945501}] (32870 energy {836045448940874}) <32870> [22:18:00.101] [@Eolair] [@Òban] [Lucky Shots {939154728812544}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Force Might {939154728812824}] () [22:18:00.101] [@Eolair] [@Òban] [Lucky Shots {939154728812544}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Force Valor {939154728812820}] () [22:18:00.102] [@Eolair] [@Òban] [Lucky Shots {939154728812544}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Lucky Shots {939154728812809}] () [22:18:00.102] [@Eolair] [@Òban] [Lucky Shots {939154728812544}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Fortification {939154728812828}] () [22:18:00.102] [@Òban] [@Òban] [Guard {1780006246154240}] [Event {836045448945472}: AbilityDeactivate {836045448945480}] () [22:18:00.102] [@Òban] [@Ainory] [Guard {1780006246154240}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Guard {1780006246154240}] () [22:18:00.102] [@Òban] [@Òban] [Guard {1780006246154240}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Guard {1780006246154240}] () [22:18:00.103] [@Òban] [@Òban] [Kinetic Ward {980828796485632}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Kinetic Bulwark {980828796485899}] () [22:18:00.103] [@Òban] [@Òban] [Kinetic Ward {980828796485632}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Kinetic Ward {980828796485632}] () [22:18:00.103] [@Òban] [@Òban] [Resilience {812822560768000}] [RemoveEffect {836045448945478}: Resilience {812822560768000}] () If its going to hit us this hard resilience has to work everytime as I died pretty much straight after this. As you can see terminate hits me 2 secs after I hit resilience and I actually lose the effect after roughly 4 secs well after terminate hits me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WheresMyWhisky Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 (edited) And I can pretty much guarantee that the spikiness issue is the reason why. Yep and if it continues my guild will almost certainly ask to play my Guardian instead because it has been noticed how spikey we are and the reduced overall damage we take is no longer a compensation for this. In fact as soon as it starts to cause raid wipes in Nim I will have too Edited May 31, 2013 by WheresMyWhisky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephenalandavie Posted June 20, 2013 Share Posted June 20, 2013 How much proof do these guys need about their own game's bugs?. I give in on this bug ever being fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dev Post DavidDemaree Posted June 24, 2013 Dev Post Share Posted June 24, 2013 In the following particular instances, it is not a bug: In Nightmare Mode, Huge Grenade does in fact deal weapon damage (rather than the spell damage it deals in Story and Hard Modes). This was an intentional change for Nightmare Mode, done to make the encounter more challenging. As for Terminate, it has always been a weapon damage attack in any difficulty mode that it appears, and it would have never worked to Force Shroud it - any such luck to the contrary is a mere coincidence (though probably not uncommon). In other instances while Force Shroud is active and you know that you are being hit by a tech or Force attack, the issue is most likely that players and NPCs always have at least a 5% chance to hit with any ability, regardless of how high your defense is to that type of ability. So while Force Shroud is active, there is always at least a 5% chance that you could be hit by any tech or Force attack. I don't like this anymore than you do. I know it's extremely frustrating to be hit by an ability that, for all intents and purposes, should not have hit you. Unfortunately, fixing this issue is not as simple as it seems, but I'll take a deeper look to see if there is anything we can do about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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