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If we don't have CC, what DO we have?


TheAlopex

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As a DPS Sage/Sorc.

 

We don't have the tools to stand against the big boys of damage. PT/ Van, Snipe/Guns, Mara/Sent, Jugg/Guard all outdps us and slice through our squishiness in no time.

 

They all do huge burst DPS while our DPS is DoT, meaning they wipe us before our damage even gets the chance to tick all the way through.

Everyone knows burst is king in PvP. That makes us peasants. Possibly even pheasants.

 

All of their attacks are instant, ours can be interrupted with extreme ease (except for 10 secs every 2 mins... Woo). Guns/Snipe are immune to interrupts. And while they even get CC immunity (every 60 secs for 20 secs) to counter their lack of mobility, we get nothing and are still not mobile at all due to our cast times.

 

All of them have defensive cooldowns and can outsurvive us easily.

 

All our DPS can be effectively nullified by a 5 sec cooldown Restoration/Purge.

 

So everyone whines about resolve, CC, bubble stun, and overall wanting CC to be way less effective, and what will that leave us with? At the moment our only purpose is CCing. It's what balances us and gives us some survivability.

 

Maybe the problem is TOO MANY OTHER CLASSES CAN CC TOO MUCH. Maybe instead we should nerf everyone else's CC and make Sage/Sorc possibly a dedicated CC AC. If you want to lock someone down, you'll need a Sage/Sorc. I think that would be better balance.

 

We already have more CC related talents in our trees than any other AT, so maybe that was the original vision at some point...

Edited by TheAlopex
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You're correct. Not to mention that most of your hunters chasing you are immune to mostly everything you have...you CAN'T get away. They have soooooo many cc/interrupts that it is mind boggling.... Oh even a warrior class disappearing is a form of interrupt. Can't finish a cast on an invisible target. I agree with you 100%. Amazed how many defensive cooldowns some classes have when there are hardly any for the ones that need them lol
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50 % buff to shock/project

25 % buff to deathfield/FiB

25 % TT/FL

100 % buff to our dots

Instant turbulence on a 12 sec CD and a 50 % buff to it.....

 

....would correlate with our squishiness. Once they've done that they're more than welcome to get rid of the bubble stuns.

 

Another idea would be to have TT/FL stack a dmg boost for every tick (10% per tick up to 50 %). That would however require a new mechanic and delay the class buff a good 6 months.

Edited by MidichIorian
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Fix the resolve system first.. Then we can talk about fixing sorcs.

The resolve system is fine; there are some abilities which should add more resolve, perhaps - namingly the stun bubble.

 

Like I said in the OP, what everyone seems to want "fixed" about resolve is to make CCs less effective.

 

You want CCs being less effctive to be a sweeping change, but this sweeping change would nerf us harder than any other class because we simply don't have the damage, survivability, or utility otherwise.

 

You're angry because you're getting CCd too much, well maybe the real problem is that too many classes can CC too well. Maybe people would whine less about resolve if everyone else's CCs got nerfed and Sorc/Sage became the dedicated CC class.

 

In light of that, the bubble stun currently is probably a first step in that direction.

Edited by TheAlopex
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You want CCs being less effctive to be a sweeping change, but this sweeping change would nerf us harder than any other class because we simply don't have the damage, survivability, or utility otherwise.

 

If you truly believe that sages/sorcs don't have damage, survivability, or utility... then you are doing something very wrong.

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If you truly believe that sages/sorcs don't have damage, survivability, or utility... then you are doing something very wrong.

Burst: Probably the lowest in the game

Survivability: By far the lowest in the game. And no, I'm not counting having to run away as some form of survivability perk. That's like saying that lingering in the back or staying in the spawn is an ability.

Sustained dps: Ok, a bunch of other ac'es can match it.

Utility: Hybrids have bubble, pure specs have nothing. Are you going to bring up pull? It's far better to have leap. Not to mention that a sorc won't last more than 3 secs on a ledge in Huttball against a good team.

 

But hey, I'm willing to hear about the things you think sorc is better than other classes at.

Edited by MidichIorian
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Burst: Probably the lowest in the game

Survivability: By far the lowest in the game. And no, I'm not counting having to run away as some form of survivability perk. That's like saying that lingering in the back or staying in the spawn is an ability.

Sustained dps: Ok, a bunch of other ac'es can match it.

Utility: Hybrids have bubble, pure specs have nothing. Are you going to bring up pull? It's far better to have leap. Not to mention that a sorc won't last more than 3 secs on a ledge in Huttball against a good team.

 

But hey, I'm willing to hear about the things you think sorc is better than other classes at.

 

And a dps commando has what?

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Burst: Probably the lowest in the game

Survivability: By far the lowest in the game. And no, I'm not counting having to run away as some form of survivability perk. That's like saying that lingering in the back or staying in the spawn is an ability.

Sustained dps: Ok, a bunch of other ac'es can match it.

Utility: Hybrids have bubble, pure specs have nothing. Are you going to bring up pull? It's far better to have leap. Not to mention that a sorc won't last more than 3 secs on a ledge in Huttball against a good team.

 

But hey, I'm willing to hear about the things you think sorc is better than other classes at.

 

Even our sustained DPS is sub par. Firstly because we have to actually stay alive and manage to cast it first, whilst being the squishiest and most interruptable AC, and secondly because, unlike all other DPS which needs to be healed through to nullify, ours can just be dispelled, easily, simply, and repeatedly. No heals required.

 

The only reason we aren't as crap as DPS mandos is because we have CC like the bubble stun, that let us cast, or survive, or be useful, though barely at any of those. This thread is deliberately posing the question of the hell we WOULD have if we didn't have such reliable CC, not what we DO have now (because everyone wants to take that away anyway).

 

The answer is nothing. Like a DPS mando, with less armor, but Force Speed.

Edited by TheAlopex
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From a DPS vanguard point of wiev - I have absolutely no issue with stunbubble and I believe it's a L2P issue. Of course marauders want to have it easy witha lolsmash, force scream, dead sage or applay autocrid 2k dots+force choke, yes that reqires some skill, stunning an enemy while he looses 50% of hp ...

Anyway sages of all specs go stunbubble hybrid and troll everyone around, you have my support :D

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I think the biggest issue that people have with stunbubble is the fact that you can put it on your entire team.

 

If the stun part only was applied to the sage/sorc's self-bubble then it wouldn't be a problem and you would get to keep the cc.

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How is being bubble stunned a Learn to play issue? I about spat coffee all over my desk when I read this lol!

 

This is the nuts and bolts of it.

A) You have a resolve system that is supposed to deal with excessive stuns. It's not doing it's job.

 

B)The sorc has been given an absolute truck load of CC. The class revolves around the concept of preventing other people from playing their class just so the sorc can play theirs.

 

So we have people now split on both sides of the fence. Some look at the symptoms aka "bubble stun" needing nerfing. Other's call for sorcs to be buffed in stuns.

 

What is needed is a complete overhaul of the resolve system and then a rebalancing of the classes who have stuns and roots as their crutch.. mmkay!

Edited by JackNader
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I think the biggest issue that people have with stunbubble is the fact that you can put it on your entire team.

 

If the stun part only was applied to the sage/sorc's self-bubble then it wouldn't be a problem and you would get to keep the cc.

It would be a problem because we wouldnt have team utility anymore. We would be in the same crappy position as pre-1.4, worse actually since our stun and knockback were nerfed.

 

And I don't think many of us want to be in charge of the the team's stun department but it's all we have at the moment. I'll trade the ability for a ton of different things but chances are that they will simply throw in a halfass patch to fix the stun without giving us something in return.

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I'm not 50 sork yet... but as for my 40 bubble dont look too good for me :) 4 grades of madness + recosntruct looks promising. I'm movable and need 2-3 "jumpers" at once to kill me :/

Also 200k dmg is not problem with randoms. Most problem now is fps drops to 10 :/

Edited by alexzk
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I always see DPS Sorcs/Sages that don't keyboard turn and mouse click outright rocking and toping the charts!

 

Read that again

 

Now read it again.

 

 

 

The Sorc class isn't meant for everyone. It isn't meant for bads, and it isn't meant for your Dad. In the hands of a decent player that knows how to move in MMO's, the class is super good.

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I always see DPS Sorcs/Sages that don't keyboard turn and mouse click outright rocking and toping the charts!

 

Read that again

 

Now read it again.

 

 

 

The Sorc class isn't meant for everyone. It isn't meant for bads, and it isn't meant for your Dad. In the hands of a decent player that knows how to move in MMO's, the class is super good.

 

Well the snipers/marauders must not be doing their jobs in your wzs. Because we are killing healers and softies first and they have zero defense for snipers...unless they bubble and run the entire fight.

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I think the biggest issue that people have with stunbubble is the fact that you can put it on your entire team.

 

If the stun part only was applied to the sage/sorc's self-bubble then it wouldn't be a problem and you would get to keep the cc.

 

If a sent can give the whole team a speed buff and a healing/damage buff or do party wide healing (ive seen 150k healing done by a marauder) why cant a sage cast stun bubble on the whole team? Stun bubble is fine.

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If a sent can give the whole team a speed buff and a healing/damage buff or do party wide healing (ive seen 150k healing done by a marauder) why cant a sage cast stun bubble on the whole team? Stun bubble is fine.

 

I play a marauder and you are correct, the class has some great group utility.

 

If the stun bubble filled resolve like all other hard stuns then it would be okay

If the stun bubble broke on Damage it would be fine

If the stun bubble only " stunned" when it was on the caster it would be fine.

 

Problem is it isn't limited by any of the above. I'm perfectly cool with Socs having it but it needs to be adjusted.... Just like the jugg/ Mara Rage tree should probably be looked over and adjusted.

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I had a dot spec sage take me to half health while I was killing it with another marauder. It came back and I was rescued again, no cc on the sages part with a a full wh, mostly itemized annihilation marauder, he got me to less than 5%. l2p? I did, always room for improvement.

 

Is it possible that class has more versatility than most give it credit for? Or was that guy just .... You get the picture.

 

If anyone can tell me what spec he was playing I'd be interested. Only thing to save me would have been a dot cleansing healer, and I've purged more than my share of that class. Is it possible there's more diversity to the class than a majority of people know?

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Dot spec sorcs are the most common spec.

 

In terms of gear you want 2 pieces of force master and 2 pieces of force mystic. The force master gives you heal on crushing darkness which you should be casting on every wrath proc. The mystic gear lowers the lockout of your bubble talent.

 

With parasitism and it's upgrade you have 3 dots which heal on crit. Creeping terror roots the target for 2 seconds which allows you to dot and kite. When played correctly it is actually quite hardy. It is absolutely useless vs other sorcs tho as all you need to do to shut them down is cleanse.

 

On the flip side operative's lethality spec is still useful vs other operatives because it applies weaker version of dots on cleanse. This lets you still cull targets, etc.

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As a DPS Sage/Sorc.

 

We don't have the tools to stand against the big boys of damage. PT/ Van, Snipe/Guns, Mara/Sent, Jugg/Guard all outdps us and slice through our squishiness in no time.

 

They all do huge burst DPS while our DPS is DoT, meaning they wipe us before our damage even gets the chance to tick all the way through.

Everyone knows burst is king in PvP. That makes us peasants. Possibly even pheasants.

 

All of their attacks are instant, ours can be interrupted with extreme ease (except for 10 secs every 2 mins... Woo). Guns/Snipe are immune to interrupts. And while they even get CC immunity (every 60 secs for 20 secs) to counter their lack of mobility, we get nothing and are still not mobile at all due to our cast times.

 

All of them have defensive cooldowns and can outsurvive us easily.

 

All our DPS can be effectively nullified by a 5 sec cooldown Restoration/Purge.

 

So everyone whines about resolve, CC, bubble stun, and overall wanting CC to be way less effective, and what will that leave us with? At the moment our only purpose is CCing. It's what balances us and gives us some survivability.

 

Maybe the problem is TOO MANY OTHER CLASSES CAN CC TOO MUCH. Maybe instead we should nerf everyone else's CC and make Sage/Sorc possibly a dedicated CC AC. If you want to lock someone down, you'll need a Sage/Sorc. I think that would be better balance.

 

We already have more CC related talents in our trees than any other AT, so maybe that was the original vision at some point...

 

i like the fact that u didnt put merc/commando just proves that the class is total garbage

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