Got all mine for 100k each off the GTN think that is about 1 mil or a little over, not a big deal to me because the space side of this game is a mini game and the weekly takes longer than running the daily group finder for 5 BH coms. People ************ about this as P2W dont even do the space side of the game and only want to ***** to *****.

 

I would agree about P2W if it was PvP gear that was for sale on the Cartel Store or end game raiding gear, but over ship parts for space missons that will take an hour or more to complete once a week for 5 BH coms is just stupid.I do agree they should have been a schem for crafters.

 

But this is the way BW/EA wanted to do it and to me it is no big deal. It is space really are people that pissed off about space gear?

Agreed.

Got all mine for 100k each off the GTN think that is about 1 mil or a little over, not a big deal to me because the space side of this game is a mini game and the weekly takes longer than running the daily group finder for 5 BH coms. People ************ about this as P2W dont even do the space side of the game and only want to ***** to *****.

 

I would agree about P2W if it was PvP gear that was for sale on the Cartel Store or end game raiding gear, but over ship parts for space missons that will take an hour or more to complete once a week for 5 BH coms is just stupid.I do agree they should have been a schem for crafters.

 

But this is the way BW/EA wanted to do it and to me it is no big deal. It is space really are people that pissed off about space gear?

It's the SWTOR forums. For some reason they're populated mainly by people who just hate everything about this game, yet spend all their time posting about it.

I really can't understand how a handful of BH's PER WEEK (that lots of people, even with the upgrades, won't be able to earn. Some of these missions are HARD) = P2W. It's not like you can buy the BH comms directly. You've still gotta do the missions. The ability to buy the ship upgrades just means that those of us who haven't already spend a million years grinding space missions over and over (particularly on alts) can have a shot at trying the new missions. It doesn't make these missions easy, nor does it make them a faster way to get BH comms than doing daily FP's (cause they're not).

The idea that the space missions will throw the system out of whack is ridiculous. But hey, that never stopped this forum....

I wouldn't mind it if the costs of these items from fleet comms was reasonable- it isn't though.

You have to do similar grinding timesinks to get full grade 7 from fleet comms as you would operations grade gear- except this is a side mini game, it's not supposed to be a super grind.

At least the power converter is more or less free- but yeah, I haven't spent a coin since the shop came out- but it is tempting to even just buy the weapons pack.

I'm not really upset- again, it's a mini game and I'm not doing space missions for gear or BH comms or whatever- I do them cuz I like to spend half an hour here or there just wasting time in space.

It'll take a dedicated grind though to afford these the legit way.

I wouldn't mind it if the costs of these items from fleet comms was reasonable- it isn't though.

 

You have to do similar grinding timesinks to get full grade 7 from fleet comms as you would operations grade gear- except this is a side mini game, it's not supposed to be a super grind.

 

At least the power converter is more or less free- but yeah, I haven't spent a coin since the shop came out- but it is tempting to even just buy the weapons pack.

 

I'm not really upset- again, it's a mini game and I'm not doing space missions for gear or BH comms or whatever- I do them cuz I like to spend half an hour here or there just wasting time in space.

 

It'll take a dedicated grind though to afford these the legit way.

Why spend any cartel coins on the space parts when they are on the GTN for 100k or less right now?

Looks like there trying out the P2W model with the space missions. END game

So would it be P2W if crafters made the parts and sold them for insane amount of credits? Because really what is going on is people are buying the parts then selling them on the GTN for credits. So in the end it comes out to be the same thing as if someone crafted the parts because I am willing to bet less than 10% of the players in this game even do space missions.

Perhaps I read too much into your questions but they seemed on the verge of being insulting to anyone who has a competitive nature. Games and competition go hand-in-hand. I won't apologize for grinning when I get a really good piece of gear that few other players have when I got it through hard work. To then turn around and see the same piece of gear on someone whose entire skillset is swiping a credit card degrades the entire experience for me.

 

Aside from the color crystals, I had little problem with what they offerred in the 1.5 CM. But to offer the top-end parts is too far.

Which is why I am asking the questions I am. We need to determine the whys and wherefores and by doing so, we can determine what kind of solutions would work to relieve the complaints we have with the CM while still offering the conveniences and perks that other people are willing to spend money on which in turn helps to keep the game up and running.

So let me ask this - you worked hard (and thereby spent your available time) in game to earn that gear. The other person worked hard in real life (and thereby spent their available time) to earn the money to buy the gear. Why is one way better than the other? If you both worked hard, shouldn't you both be able to acquire the item via the means the hard work produced?

Why would offering top end gear be going to far? All gear is gated based on character level, so only max level characters would be able to use said gear. If one person has enough time to earn it in game through hard work, but another person does not (because of hard work), but can earn it because of said work, shouldn't they be to use the means they have available to get the gear (money), just as you did (time)?

To rehash my feelings from the previous post, and keeping in the spirit of information gathering, let me answer first:

If they were to offer the Tier 7 ship parts in one complete package for $10 or $15 on the CM and also offer it from a Vendor in game for 500,000 credits, would it still be a problem?

No. When I play games, I want to be able to play them in a manner I find most enjoyable, and the ones that do often allow me options on how to play when I feel like playing at any particular time. Sometimes I just want to faceroll mobs for some quick stress relief. Sometimes I want to feel that my skills and strategies are put to the test. Sometimes I just want to re-run a piece of content over and over again because I really happen to like it and am in the mood for more of it that night. The same goes for acquiring items. By having it available in the store, on a Vendor or GTN, or via a mission reward or drop, I can then pick the way I want to get that item at that particular time and continue to play the parts of the game I enjoy most, and skip over the ones that I do not enjoy.

Why should there be a need to "work" in a game - we work in real life, shouldn't we have more options available in a game to avoid "working" on a piece of content if we so choose?

This is a tricky one to answer, because quite frankly we shouldn’t be working in a game. Games should be made for entertainment and fun. While some people may consider their real life jobs fun, I think the term “work” kind of precludes that essential element. The key here is to make the content playable in such a way in that it doesn’t feel like work, even if what we are doing may be considered “work” of a sort. Generally, the term applies to grinding content in game, so the key is to either make the grind voluntary (as Guild Wars attempted to do) by not making it essential to completing content in the game (cosmetic grind). Unfortunately, for games like SWTOR, which are gear based games, the grind becomes an essential part of obtaining the gear (treadmill grind). The only way to avoid making it feel like work in this type of game is to make the content fun and compelling enough to make having to repeat it more than once not a problem, or bypass it altogether by having the gear available by another means in addition to the playable content.

End Part One (this was a long post)

If you do indeed have that choice, and you enjoy playing the game and playing the Operations, why then would the fact that the armor appears in the cash shop affect your feeling of accomplishment in that you completed the content and reaped the reward in the manner that you enjoyed the most?

For me it would not. I am a competitive person, but I also play games primarily as a means of stress relief and for entertainment. As I mention above a part of that entertainment comes from being able to play the way I want at that particular time. As such I often make my own goals to try to achieve outside of what the game gives me. I play for my own pride and sense of accomplishment. Regardless of how other people may play the game or obtain items, it did not change the way I did it, it did not change the goals I set out for myself, and it did not change the fact that I was able to do what I wanted in the way I wanted to do it.

Shouldn’t you be proud of your accomplishment regardless because you succeeded in performing it on your own terms?

Yes I am, for the reasons I just mentioned. No one can take my accomplishments away from me. If I wanted to spend hours hiking to the top of a peak in the Rocky Mountains I can do it. If someone decides to fly a Helicopter to the top of that same peak changes nothing about my sense of accomplishment by doing it my way.

If it is related to competition and Epeen, who then are you trying to impress?

First and foremost I try to impress and compete against myself. Again, being the competitive person that I am, no one else will be as critical of my abilities as I am, therefore I will always push myself to do better (by setting my own goals). In terms of competition, it depends on who I am competing against. To put it in real world terms, when I was participating in competitive sports I was always trying to win, and even when I did thought back on how I could do things even better next time. Trying to impress my competitors or audience never really came into my mind because my goal was not to impress, but to succeed.

If it the random stranger, again, why does what they think so important?

For me, what they think doesn’t matter, for the reasons stated above. The random stranger has no bearing or effect on my life either in the Real World or in game, so I don’t really care about them. As such their opinion of me means absolutely nothing, therefore I never try to impress them.

If it be the competition between like-minded individuals and groups, would it not then be logical to assume that you all would communicate your accomplishments with each other and thus be able to differentiate between those who performed the accomplishments and those who bought the end rewards?

That’s what I have always done in real life and continue to do in games. I always have friendly competitions. We all know each other, we goad each other. We rib each other for our mistakes and praise each other for our successes. This is a group of people that either have a bearing on my life in the real world or in game, therefore we know who accomplished what and give appropriate praise. The fact that others may have did things differently really has no bearing on what we do because what we do is for us and our enjoyment.

BJ

Looks like there trying out the P2W model with the space missions. END game

Run! The sky is falling! They gave the option to spend money so you can try the new missions for the minigame that most people don't even play! SWTOR is doooooooomed!

For me it would not. I am a competitive person, but I also play games primarily as a means of stress relief and for entertainment. As I mention above a part of that entertainment comes from being able to play the way I want at that particular time. As such I often make my own goals to try to achieve outside of what the game gives me. I play for my own pride and sense of accomplishment. Regardless of how other people may play the game or obtain items, it did not change the way I did it, it did not change the goals I set out for myself, and it did not change the fact that I was able to do what I wanted in the way I wanted to do it.

To be honest, you sound more individually achievement-oriented than competitive. And that's fine. That's a completely legitimate way to play the game. And as such, I see why this doesn't bother you. But be aware that not everyone competes only against themselves. Competing against others, whether in terms of wins or gear-acquistion, is a legitimate way to play the game.

There are lots of things I like about this game. I like the social aspect. I like exploring. I like setting goals for myself and reaching them. And I also like comparing what I can do against other players. Sometimes I come up short, sometimes I don't, but getting better in comparison is part of what I like about playing the game. Being able to buy your way to the top cheapens the entire experience, in my opinion.

Run! The sky is falling! They gave the option to spend money so you can try the new missions for the minigame that most people don't even play! SWTOR is doooooooomed!

The funny thing with the P2W group is once you point out

1. less than 10% of the players do space

2. it is faster to get BH coms from Daily GF weekly quest

3.You can get the space parts from a long grind

They seem to vanish and say nothing else about why or how this is P2W.Funny thing is my ship was loaded out with crafted parts. So what is the difference other than the crafter was left out of this transaction?

To be honest, you sound more individually achievement-oriented than competitive. And that's fine. That's a completely legitimate way to play the game. And as such, I see why this doesn't bother you. But be aware that not everyone competes only against themselves. Competing against others, whether in terms of wins or gear-acquistion, is a legitimate way to play the game.

 

There are lots of things I like about this game. I like the social aspect. I like exploring. I like setting goals for myself and reaching them. And I also like comparing what I can do against other players. Sometimes I come up short, sometimes I don't, but getting better in comparison is part of what I like about playing the game. Being able to buy your way to the top cheapens the entire experience, in my opinion.

But when someone buys their way to the top, they are in fact not getting better. By virtue of spending time and effort in game, learning to play and learning the mechanics they will become better skilled. Those who do not spend such time and effort will not be better skilled, therefore your accomplishments and skills cannot be cheapened because you still end up being the better player.

Is my way of playing better than your way? Is your way of playing better than my way? The answer is no to both - so the question becomes, where is the middle ground. What things can be done that allows you to play the way you want without loosing a sense of accomplishment and allow me to play the way I want by being able to customize the looks of my toons via real money and allow me time to play the aspects of the game I enjoy most?

BJ

The funny thing with the P2W group is once you point out

 

1. less than 10% of the players do space

2. it is faster to get BH coms from Daily GF weekly quest

3.You can get the space parts from a long grind

 

They seem to vanish and say nothing else about why or how this is P2W.Funny thing is my ship was loaded out with crafted parts. So what is the difference other than the crafter was left out of this transaction?

In my experience, they usually just ignore your post or just say something about how you don't understand because you're not a hardcore player like they are. 'Cause we really should make it so the game is only fun for people who can spend 12+ hours a day grinding.

Heck, maybe that's the root of the issue: The old "grind to get anything" method was great for the unemployed. Asking them to throw an extra $10 at a game that they've been playing for thousands of hours is distinctly unfair, I guess, since they DO have plenty of time, but they DON'T have $10.

P2W whiners: Just think of the space missions as DLC that they asked you to pay a couple dollars for, but also gave you the option to grind to get it for free. You apparently like grinding, so get to it. Me, I hate grinding; I'm really not sure why wanting to have a good story in a multiplayer environment supposedly means that I also want to do the Black Hole missions or the late-game space missions 2000 times. I'd MUCH rather spend that time leveling alts, thanks.

P2W whiners: Just think of the space missions as DLC that they asked you to pay a couple dollars for,

http://www.swtor.com/free/features

If it's DLC, it's DLC I already paid for.

http://www.swtor.com/free/features

 

If it's DLC, it's DLC I already paid for.

Well, feel free to play the space missions then. You can totally try them out without the gear. If you absolutely refuse to buy 'em (don't you have coins from subscribing?), grind away. Be my guest.

But when someone buys their way to the top, they are in fact not getting better. By virtue of spending time and effort in game, learning to play and learning the mechanics they will become better skilled. Those who do not spend such time and effort will not be better skilled, therefore your accomplishments and skills cannot be cheapened because you still end up being the better player.

Look, I get what you're saying, I really do. I'm just saying that I see end-game gear as a reward. If people can buy it instead of earning it, it means less to me.

Well, feel free to play the space missions then. You can totally try them out without the gear. If you absolutely refuse to buy 'em (don't you have coins from subscribing?), grind away. Be my guest.

It's clearly not balanced without CM content. If there was no CM they would have either made level 6 missions, instead of jumping form level 5 to level 7, or made it easier to get the level 7 stuff. If they are going to implement an unbalanced, unfun grind in an attempt to extract fees from me for content I have already paid for then I am going elsewhere.

If I went to a movie theatre and bought a ticket at the box office, but then when I went to theatre the usher told me that there was a seat fee, I would not go to that movie theatre again. That's what I'm doing. I guess you'd be the guy who points out that I could just stand for the entire movie.

It's clearly not balanced without CM content. If there was no CM they would have either made level 6 missions, instead of jumping form level 5 to level 7, or made it easier to get the level 7 stuff. If they are going to implement an unbalanced, unfun grind in an attempt to extract fees from me for content I have already paid for then I am going elsewhere.

 

If I went to a movie theatre and bought a ticket at the box office, but then when I went to theatre the usher told me that there was a seat fee, I would not go to that movie theatre again. That's what I'm doing. I guess you'd be the guy who points out that I could just stand for the entire movie.

I maybe mistaken but the crafted ship parts are more like Grade 6. So they went from 6 to 7 not 5 to 7

I maybe mistaken but the crafted ship parts are more like Grade 6. So they went from 6 to 7 not 5 to 7

By grade 6 I mean grade 6 missions. They have grade 6 parts, but they never made content balanced around those parts. The grade 5 missions are loleasy with grade 6 parts.

It's clearly not balanced without CM content. If there was no CM they would have either made level 6 missions, instead of jumping form level 5 to level 7, or made it easier to get the level 7 stuff. If they are going to implement an unbalanced, unfun grind in an attempt to extract fees from me for content I have already paid for then I am going elsewhere.

 

If I went to a movie theatre and bought a ticket at the box office, but then when I went to theatre the usher told me that there was a seat fee, I would not go to that movie theatre again. That's what I'm doing. I guess you'd be the guy who points out that I could just stand for the entire movie.

**** double post

It's clearly not balanced without CM content. If there was no CM they would have either made level 6 missions, instead of jumping form level 5 to level 7, or made it easier to get the level 7 stuff. If they are going to implement an unbalanced, unfun grind in an attempt to extract fees from me for content I have already paid for then I am going elsewhere.

 

If I went to a movie theatre and bought a ticket at the box office, but then when I went to theatre the usher told me that there was a seat fee, I would not go to that movie theatre again. That's what I'm doing. I guess you'd be the guy who points out that I could just stand for the entire movie.

No, but I'll point out that there's another way to get a seat. A better metaphor is that you got to the theatre early and stood in line, and are angry that other people just went online, paid a few bucks extra, and got their tickets at home without having to stand in that long line. You're both seeing the same movie with seats of the exact same quality, they just paid more money for the convenience. If you think they're suckers for paying for for the same ticket, that's your right. That doesn't mean that you should boycott the theatre or try to ban online ticket sales.

What makes this even more of a non-issue for me is that if you're one of the small minority who really, really likes the space missions, then you probably have a ton of comms sitting around anyway. I know i have guildies who did enough space missions to earn a Grade 8 box every few days or so, and that's well on the way to purchasing one of these new T7 items (this isn't to say that I don't agree that the price for the T7 space items is too high. I think they should be cut in half or so, but I think they should also be on the cartel and GTN as they are now). For those who stopped doing space missions after they finished the original missions, however, I think the ability to jump straight to the new missions without suddenly grinding a ton is great.

After all, when a new Operation launches, they don't require a new tier of gear to run it; they have it DROP the new tier of gear. That wasn't the way the space missions were set up, however. Personally, I think making the Cartel an option was a pretty great solution.

It's clearly not balanced without CM content. If there was no CM they would have either made level 6 missions, instead of jumping form level 5 to level 7, or made it easier to get the level 7 stuff. If they are going to implement an unbalanced, unfun grind in an attempt to extract fees from me for content I have already paid for then I am going elsewhere.

 

If I went to a movie theatre and bought a ticket at the box office, but then when I went to theatre the usher told me that there was a seat fee, I would not go to that movie theatre again. That's what I'm doing. I guess you'd be the guy who points out that I could just stand for the entire movie.

Yes! This is exactly how I feel about these new space missions - they should have been at least doable with T6 parts, and rewarded T7 parts (or at least a reasonable grind towards them).

The fact that they introduced a discontinuity in progression is what bothers me the most about it. The rewards for obtaining the gear and successfully running the missions is nowhere near the cost of getting set up do run them.

I won't be running them myself in their current form. I wouldn't categorize this move as Pay2Win, it's really just a big middle finger to those of us who were interested in getting new space missions.

Seems to me like they were made this way stemming from a combination of spite & greed. Kinda to just shut everyone up about even daring to ask for more content.

A better metaphor is that you got to the theatre early and stood in line, and are angry that other people just went online, paid a few bucks extra, and got their tickets at home without having to stand in that long line. You're both seeing the same movie with seats of the exact same quality, they just paid more money for the convenience. If you think they're suckers for paying for for the same ticket, that's your right. That doesn't mean that you should boycott the theatre or try to ban online ticket sales.

No, this is not at all what happened. They're trying to charge me one more time when I already bought the space missions.

After all, when a new Operation launches, they don't require a new tier of gear to run it; they have it DROP the new tier of gear. That wasn't the way the space missions were set up, however. Personally, I think making the Cartel an option was a pretty great solution.

BW created this discontinuity, I'm not going to applaud them for solving their own problem via cash-shop.

If they're willing to do this with the space missions, soon enough we'll start seeing more skippable grinds whenever new content comes out. Expect to see more new content gated by obnoxious grinds or cartel-market purchases. Space mission is their first foray into this.

No, this is not at all what happened. They're trying to charge me one more time when I already bought the space missions.

 

 

BW created this discontinuity, I'm not going to applaud them for solving their own problem via cash-shop.

 

If they're willing to do this with the space missions, soon enough we'll start seeing more skippable grinds whenever new content comes out. Expect to see more new content gated by obnoxious grinds or cartel-market purchases. Space mission is their first foray into this.

This is my worry too. Imagine:

Makeb = free to subscribers

Special Crystal that allows you to survive for more than 30 seconds on Makebs surface = 1200 Cartel Coins.

No, this is not at all what happened. They're trying to charge me one more time when I already bought the space missions..

So let me get this straight... your too lazy to grind out to earn the Grade 7 stuff so that means because you cant do the new space missions in Grade 1 Space gear that means Bioware is screwing you over Gotcha...

Buying grade 7 on the CM simply provides the convenience not having to grind for them... if the only way to obtain Grade 7 was only on the CM then your point would be valid.