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Discussion Topic: Class Changes This Summer


EricMusco

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It's not as simple as that. MMOs are balanced for certain TTK values and enrage timers, so you can't just arbitrarily increase everyone's damage and healing, you need to hit certain DPS/HPS values, and that is only possible by nerfing stronger classes and buffing weaker classes.

 

Wow I'm glad to see you post! I thought you might have quit, and that would have been a tragedy. On a side note, any new news on pets? :cool:

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Hey all,

 

I told Musco I would wait until tomorrow to post anything, but, but, but, I simply couldn't do it. I've seen so many posts about Sage/Sorc TK/Lightning, I had to jump in.

 

The list is ONLY the start and the ones listed may be included in Patch 5.3, but we might move some changes out to Patch 5.4 and include other Disciplines not yet mentioned. For example, notice that Operative/Scoundrel healing isn't on this list, yet. Hmmmppffft. They should be in the list, as I want to see my healers indestructible and completely outperforming all other healing classes! Alas, I know we won't do that, but I'd love it, even for a month!!! :D

 

Keith---

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Hey all,

 

I told Musco I would wait until tomorrow to post anything, but, but, but, I simply couldn't do it. I've seen so many posts about Sage/Sorc TK/Lightning, I had to jump in.

 

The list is ONLY the start and the ones listed may be included in Patch 5.3, but we might move some changes out to Patch 5.4 and include other Disciplines not yet mentioned. For example, notice that Operative/Scoundrel healing isn't on this list, yet. Hmmmppffft. They should be in the list, as I want to see my healers indestructible and completely outperforming all other healing classes! Alas, I know we won't do that, but I'd love it, even for a month!!! :D

 

Keith---

 

I'm sure we could have a "Healer Fest" weekend, where you throw some knobs and push some buttons to make the aforementioned changes. It would certainly liven things up for a few days. :p

Edited by Darkside
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Hey all,

 

I told Musco I would wait until tomorrow to post anything, but, but, but, I simply couldn't do it. I've seen so many posts about Sage/Sorc TK/Lightning, I had to jump in.

 

The list is ONLY the start and the ones listed may be included in Patch 5.3, but we might move some changes out to Patch 5.4 and include other Disciplines not yet mentioned. For example, notice that Operative/Scoundrel healing isn't on this list, yet. Hmmmppffft. They should be in the list, as I want to see my healers indestructible and completely outperforming all other healing classes! Alas, I know we won't do that, but I'd love it, even for a month!!! :D

 

Keith---

 

 

Have to appreciate the communication increase, so please keep that up and engage with us. The problem is that lightning is bar none the worst spec in the game right now as long as they don't use a certain exploit to boost their damage. Why that wouldn't be the first spec worked on is worrisome.

Edited by Dewlmenow
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Hey all,

 

I told Musco I would wait until tomorrow to post anything, but, but, but, I simply couldn't do it. I've seen so many posts about Sage/Sorc TK/Lightning, I had to jump in.

 

The list is ONLY the start and the ones listed may be included in Patch 5.3, but we might move some changes out to Patch 5.4 and include other Disciplines not yet mentioned. For example, notice that Operative/Scoundrel healing isn't on this list, yet. Hmmmppffft. They should be in the list, as I want to see my healers indestructible and completely outperforming all other healing classes! Alas, I know we won't do that, but I'd love it, even for a month!!! :D

 

Keith---

 

While I do appreciate the quick reply, I still do not understand the decision making here. Maybe you can enlighten me sometime soon. These changes are here to clearly address those specs with the biggest issues, either being too strong or too weak. Quite frankly that is both Sorc dps specs. Both are way too weak, and Lightning is the weaker of the two and yet Madness is chosen first to be worked on. They both should be on the list of classes to be worked on for the first pass. If you have a good reason for Lightning to be worked on later, then I would be glad to hear it, but under the current posts, the reasoning just isn't there and the "clarifications" still make no sense.

Edited by DarthCognusSion
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Hey all,

 

I told Musco I would wait until tomorrow to post anything, but, but, but, I simply couldn't do it. I've seen so many posts about Sage/Sorc TK/Lightning, I had to jump in.

 

The list is ONLY the start and the ones listed may be included in Patch 5.3, but we might move some changes out to Patch 5.4 and include other Disciplines not yet mentioned. For example, notice that Operative/Scoundrel healing isn't on this list, yet. Hmmmppffft. They should be in the list, as I want to see my healers indestructible and completely outperforming all other healing classes! Alas, I know we won't do that, but I'd love it, even for a month!!! :D

 

Keith---

 

So in other words, if I am Rock, please nerf Paper but Scissors is fine as it is :)

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Hey folks,

 

As Keith mentioned in the roadmap, we want to start the process of having weekly discussion threads here on the forums. Let's get this started with our first topic, Class changes starting with Game Update 5.3. Let us know what you think of the list! Are these the Disciplines you expected to see? Are any missing and if so which ones and why?

 

The following is each Class/Discipline we are currently looking into changing. By Friday, we will begin posting in-depth threads on exactly what is happening to each Discipline. This will include whether they are being buffed or nerfed and why, along with the specific planned changes. These threads will get posted over a few weeks. Here is the current summer list:

  • Sorc and Sage
    • Madness/Balance
    • Corruption/Seer

    [*]PT and Vanguard

    • Pyrotech/Plasmatech

    [*]Assassin and Shadow

    • Hatred/Serenity

    [*]Sniper and Gunslinger

    • Virulence/Dirty Fighting
    • Engineering/Saboteur

    [*]Merc and Commando

    • Innovative Ordnance/Assault Specialist
    • Arsenal/Gunnery

 

You will obviously have a number of questions, but here’s a few that may be on your mind:

 

Why are these Disciplines being looked at for changes?

Between data and player feedback, these are the Disciplines that appear to be most in need of change. Whether that is that they are too good, or not good enough, these Disciplines need attention first.

 

What about the missing Classes/Disciplines?

If a Class or Discipline is missing from this list it doesn't mean they won't be receiving changes at all, it is just that they are not receiving changes in the near future. In most cases this means that those Classes and/or Disciplines are in an ok place. It doesn't mean they don't need changes (both buff and nerf) but that other Disciplines need them sooner.

 

When will we receive a detailed breakdown of the changes?

I will be working with the team on getting the exact changes out to you as soon as they are ready. Based on what I know today, we will start posting those threads (which will be posted by Discipline) this week and throughout June.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

 

How about juggernauts? didn't see them on the list.. cmon guy! if your team or dev's staff thinks juggernauts are fine, then you out to highlight that though again.. You know, people subscribe to play the Juggernaut, they actually pay a monthly fee to play the juggernaut. I assume by now it should had sink in.. right!

 

"In most cases this means that those Classes and/or Disciplines are in an ok place." according to who!? who makes those determinations as to what is okay and what is not! sure enough it doesn't seen the pay subscribers make such a determinations. Perhaps the people who never play those classes make such a determination..

 

And remember, this is not Call Of Duty. This is SWTOR. Stop making it a Shooting game, and less of a saber game. If I wanna play Call of Duty, I turn on the Xbox..

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Hey all,

 

I told Musco I would wait until tomorrow to post anything, but, but, but, I simply couldn't do it. I've seen so many posts about Sage/Sorc TK/Lightning, I had to jump in.

 

The list is ONLY the start and the ones listed may be included in Patch 5.3, but we might move some changes out to Patch 5.4 and include other Disciplines not yet mentioned. For example, notice that Operative/Scoundrel healing isn't on this list, yet. Hmmmppffft. They should be in the list, as I want to see my healers indestructible and completely outperforming all other healing classes! Alas, I know we won't do that, but I'd love it, even for a month!!! :D

 

Keith---

While it's good that you aren't completely forgetting about some specs, 5.4 is just too long to wait for much needed changes. You should make class changes all at once so people who are considering changing classes or specs have adequate time to gear up before the majority of nightmare is released for GFTM.

 

Regarding the classes you guys chose to change. Virulence, in my opinion as a sniper main, is fine where it is. I think you guys are considering nerfing it (just because I wouldn't see a reason to buff it) but doing that will greatly reduce the viability of snipers in a raid. Virulence is the best spec for almost every fight and it is where it should be as a dot based class. Two other changes I would like to see made are Marksmanship and Lightning. Marksmanship is no longer viable for progression raiding (for example, it is the best spec to use for 1 fight - raptus, due to it's extremely low sustained DPS). As a marksmanship sniper you are generally depending on your teammates to carry your dps in sustained burns, such as Brontes Burn or Styrak burn because while you have some burst, it isn't enough to justify going marksmanship over virulence. The other class that needs buffing is Lightning sorcerer. It's good to see you guys are changing Madness, but Lightning is also very unviable due to it's low sustained damage and it doesnt have incredible burst either. Unless you have a very good group, you simply cannot bring a sorcerer dps to Apex Nightmare bosses. This obviously needs to change.

 

Keep up the good work and I hope you guys listen to some of the suggestions given here.

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Hey all,

 

I told Musco I would wait until tomorrow to post anything, but, but, but, I simply couldn't do it. I've seen so many posts about Sage/Sorc TK/Lightning, I had to jump in.

 

The list is ONLY the start and the ones listed may be included in Patch 5.3, but we might move some changes out to Patch 5.4 and include other Disciplines not yet mentioned. For example, notice that Operative/Scoundrel healing isn't on this list, yet. Hmmmppffft. They should be in the list, as I want to see my healers indestructible and completely outperforming all other healing classes! Alas, I know we won't do that, but I'd love it, even for a month!!! :D

 

Keith---

 

No, Keith, you got that all wrong. Mercenary Healers should be the indestructible and unkillable ones. :p:p:p

 

But thanks for the communication as always. :)

Edited by Pandoras_Jar
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Hey all,

 

I told Musco I would wait until tomorrow to post anything, but, but, but, I simply couldn't do it. I've seen so many posts about Sage/Sorc TK/Lightning, I had to jump in.

 

The list is ONLY the start and the ones listed may be included in Patch 5.3, but we might move some changes out to Patch 5.4 and include other Disciplines not yet mentioned. For example, notice that Operative/Scoundrel healing isn't on this list, yet. Hmmmppffft. They should be in the list, as I want to see my healers indestructible and completely outperforming all other healing classes! Alas, I know we won't do that, but I'd love it, even for a month!!! :D

 

Keith---

 

Lol. Agreed on operatives. GIVE THEM ALL THE POWER haha. But having just achieved legendary the two that stick out are lightning sorcs and my God my Jedi shadow! Jedi shadows SUCK. I have so few skills that I was debating on sending in a ticket because there were times the trainer lit up but there was nothing available. And *most* skills required stealth or behind target so when trash mobs auto detect stealth...BURN man. It hurts. Maybe there's skills I'm missing. I'm going to look up a dulfy guide next time and compare. Something isn't right there. I forget her discipline so I'll look it up. But she's weak. Real weak. At level 64 her only high damage attacks require stealth/behind target.

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first of all i wil complain about u ideas here is why why the hell is Lighthing Sorc not on the list its like for real we have lowest dps outputt in the game We cant particepate in Nim Ops due the fact we are huge 4 to 6 k dps behind other classes you also know the fact that people say in ranked pvp o god another sorc we lose is kinda humiliating due the fact the just weak and then u ignore the lighthing sorc yet again to ballance their dps up i feel ashamed to been playing this game for like 6 years ever since u launhed i got loads of my real life friends in this game as well because i like it but for real i was hoping to see little more serinity towards sorc,s for real my bounty hunter with way lower gear pull higher dps then my sorc full 242 - 248 and so does my maurauder for gods shakes hes is wearing 8 pieces of 224 gear stil and make bigger hits such let down
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Also Pvp and PvE are as different as Night and Day. You cannot do Class Balance right using Pvp and PvE together, because they are too different.

 

This! Please class balance PvP and PvE independently.

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  • Sorc and Sage
    • Madness/Balance
    • Corruption/Seer

    [*]PT and Vanguard

    • Pyrotech/Plasmatech

    [*]Assassin and Shadow

    • Hatred/Serenity

    [*]Sniper and Gunslinger

    • Virulence/Dirty Fighting
    • Engineering/Saboteur

    [*]Merc and Commando

    • Innovative Ordnance/Assault Specialist
    • Arsenal/Gunnery

 

(snip)

 

What about the missing Classes/Disciplines?

If a Class or Discipline is missing from this list it doesn't mean they won't be receiving changes at all, it is just that they are not receiving changes in the near future. In most cases this means that those Classes and/or Disciplines are in an ok place. It doesn't mean they don't need changes (both buff and nerf) but that other Disciplines need them sooner.

 

So, Commandos that aren't really OP will get the BW nerf bat but Operatives who are way OP won't. And you think Telekenisis Sages are in a good place? *sigh* This is about the level of mess i expected, again.

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This! Please class balance PvP and PvE independently.

 

This is definitely a good point. Breaking classes in PVE just to make the PVP community happy has done nothing but hurt the game in the past.

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Really hoping you buff DPS Vanguards/PTs for survivability, as they are squishy. People talk about Guards and Juggs having issues, but my PT has far more issues when I play him.

 

I've heard others say Pyro could use a damage boost as well, though I don't remember the numbers well enough there. I can't add much there other than to say that my PT definitely seems to cut through things faster with AP rather than Pyro, which is disappointing (I ran with him for the flames, 100%). There are good threads on this in the class forums, though.

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I've heard others say Pyro could use a damage boost as well

 

Aye. People are crying rivers of salty tears about Lightning Sorcs (sure, they could use a buff or two), but everyone keeps forgetting the true worst spec in this game.

Edited by BenitsubasaChiyo
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Aye. People are crying rivers of salty tears about Lightning Sorcs (sure, they could use a buff or two), but everyone keeps forgetting the true worst spec in this game.

 

Yeah, I have a TK Sage and don't really feel like he's in a bad spot (nor is he as squishy as my Pyro). But I also know I go more with how things go when I solo and do FPs and PVP, which isn't really strong data to go on, so I get where the frustration comes from there. Still, it's pretty clear my Pyro has to be very careful with aggro. I can still be fairly tanky with my Guardian as DPS, but I'm trying to shed aggro on my Pyro all the time. :(

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Commandos are fine right now IMO. They can actually survive some damage if they use their cool-downs correctly, just like other classes. People are just use to them being easy kills. They also have weaknesses built into those cool-downs, just like other classes.

 

Pyrotech and it's mirror is in need of serious dmg increase.

 

Sage/Sorc should be a bit higher DPS, they are the squishy class.

 

Operative's AOE fire device (don't know the name) is way over tuned.

 

Vanguard tanks could also use some love, maybe up to duration or % of their Defensive cool-downs.

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Hey folks,

 

As Keith mentioned in the roadmap, we want to start the process of having weekly discussion threads here on the forums. Let's get this started with our first topic, Class changes starting with Game Update 5.3. Let us know what you think of the list! Are these the Disciplines you expected to see? Are any missing and if so which ones and why?

 

The following is each Class/Discipline we are currently looking into changing. By Friday, we will begin posting in-depth threads on exactly what is happening to each Discipline. This will include whether they are being buffed or nerfed and why, along with the specific planned changes. These threads will get posted over a few weeks. Here is the current summer list:

  • Sorc and Sage
    • Madness/Balance
    • Corruption/Seer

    [*]PT and Vanguard

    • Pyrotech/Plasmatech

    [*]Assassin and Shadow

    • Hatred/Serenity

    [*]Sniper and Gunslinger

    • Virulence/Dirty Fighting
    • Engineering/Saboteur

    [*]Merc and Commando

    • Innovative Ordnance/Assault Specialist
    • Arsenal/Gunnery

 

You will obviously have a number of questions, but here’s a few that may be on your mind:

 

Why are these Disciplines being looked at for changes?

Between data and player feedback, these are the Disciplines that appear to be most in need of change. Whether that is that they are too good, or not good enough, these Disciplines need attention first.

 

What about the missing Classes/Disciplines?

If a Class or Discipline is missing from this list it doesn't mean they won't be receiving changes at all, it is just that they are not receiving changes in the near future. In most cases this means that those Classes and/or Disciplines are in an ok place. It doesn't mean they don't need changes (both buff and nerf) but that other Disciplines need them sooner.

 

When will we receive a detailed breakdown of the changes?

I will be working with the team on getting the exact changes out to you as soon as they are ready. Based on what I know today, we will start posting those threads (which will be posted by Discipline) this week and throughout June.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

The list must contain Lightning/Telekinesis, which currently has the most underperforming DPS.

Edited by ViktorAres
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