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Guardian/Juggernaut Vigilance/Vengeance Guide (3.0+) by Vesev and AndrewPast


veSev

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While I tank almost exclusively these days, a few fight specific things I have picked up on. I should add I too think most of our utilities are meh for tanking/dpsing in PvE. Espically when I see what our two Powertechs have:

 

On Underlurker HM, Pooled Hatred is really really really strong. I would definitely recommend that for that boss. In addition, if you lack a marauder in your group both the run buff on Endure Pain and the group run buff are a welcome sight on that boss in HM.

 

I like ED cleanse and payback on Torque HM. Sometimes the EP run buff is nice when your in a pickle and beset by fires on all sides.

 

I also like ED cleanse on Revanite commanders but I think that is more of a tank thing tbh.

 

On Revan HM there is a lot of wide wide damage for the entire fight, the shorter CD on ED will help a tiny bit there.

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Don't know if you tested this yet, but I did on world NPC's (nothing in a FP/OP setting) and it cleansed the dots.

 

In theory it should only cleanse NPC/PvE dots as those are still cleansable. Dots from players on the other and no, but all the other stuff from players it should (snares, most cc's, armour debuffs etc..)

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Great work on the guide guys :D!

 

I would like to say, numbers will *probably* be better with the 198 4 set and 186 sent 2 set because that 1 min icd is lame :rolleyes:.

 

Thanks man, and I agree. Once I get the new set bonus, I will be testing that with both the 192s and 198s.

 

EDIT: Give this thread a sticky too, it deserves it, great work :)

 

Doubt we'll get a sticky on this, but one can hope.

Edited by veSev
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Thanks man, and I agree. Once I get the new set bonus, I will be testing that with both the 192s and 198s.

 

 

 

Doubt we'll get a sticky on this, but one can hope.

 

Wait so for pvp even, we should have 7 pieces that has accuracy?

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The thing you have to consider though is 198 6 set will definitely have better burst than the 186 mixed variant, so its a question of what the fight is asking. If its an overall DPS check with lots of uptime, the 186 mix will probably be better, whereas a fight with strict burst checks would prefer the full 198 version.
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Wait so for pvp even, we should have 7 pieces that has accuracy?

 

No. I will let Andrew discuss more in depth, but the current guide is centered around pve content and that includes the gearing section. We will update the guide soon with pvp info once we have tested it more in game.

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In PvP, accuracy only matters for white attacks (weapons damage). Furthermore, 6 out of 8 AC's only carry 5% defense baseline, so you only need 95% accuracy to guarantee you won't miss on them.

 

In general, PvP is far more dynamic than PvE and so there is no one general rule to gearing.

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In PvP, accuracy only matters for white attacks (weapons damage). Furthermore, 6 out of 8 AC's only carry 5% defense baseline, so you only need 95% accuracy to guarantee you won't miss on them.

 

In general, PvP is far more dynamic than PvE and so there is no one general rule to gearing.

 

So get my accuracy to 95?

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So get my accuracy to 95?

 

Yes and no? If your class relies heavily on yellow damage, you don't need any accuracy. If you use a bit of white damage, then yeah, 95 is a safe goal. Vengeance and Rage both have a decent amount of weapons damage attacks, so 95% is fine.

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In PvP, accuracy only matters for white attacks (weapons damage). Furthermore, 6 out of 8 AC's only carry 5% defense baseline, so you only need 95% accuracy to guarantee you won't miss on them.

 

In general, PvP is far more dynamic than PvE and so there is no one general rule to gearing.

 

This is correct; 95% accuracy should be your goal as both Vigilance and Focus. As for other stats, general baseline stat priorities are 95% accuracy > 0-150 crit rating (possibly up to 200) > 0 alacrity (while alacrity isn't bad, any downtime devalues alacrity) > rest power/surge. I prefer strength augments, but power is fine too. Overall DPS wise, strength augments are slightly better while power provides slightly better burst.

 

I'm still testing things out on my Guardian, but I should hopefully have some time this weekend to write up a bit of the PVP section for regs (arenas will take more time to get a decent amount of games in.)

Edited by Andrew_Past
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This is correct; 95% accuracy should be your goal as both Vigilance and Focus. As for other stats, general baseline stat priorities are 95% accuracy > 0-150 crit rating (possibly up to 200) > 0 alacrity (while alacrity isn't bad, any downtime devalues alacrity) > rest power/surge. I prefer strength augments, but power is fine too. Overall DPS wise, strength augments are slightly better while power provides slightly better burst.

 

I'm still testing things out on my Guardian, but I should hopefully have some time this weekend to write up a bit of the PVP section for regs (arenas will take more time to get a decent amount of games in.)

 

I still think you'll want a little alacrity. Say you are up against another guardian who is your exact match in skill, gear and latency, and the only difference is you swapped 1 surge piece for 1 alacrity piece. Who wins? You, because you got the killing blow in slightly earlier.

 

Of course, this is entirely up to personal preference, but I honestly think those that will bring 1-2 alacrity pieces will do better in PvP than those who ignore it, simply because it squeezes their rotation slightly closer together.

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I still think you'll want a little alacrity. Say you are up against another guardian who is your exact match in skill, gear and latency, and the only difference is you swapped 1 surge piece for 1 alacrity piece. Who wins? You, because you got the killing blow in slightly earlier.

 

Of course, this is entirely up to personal preference, but I honestly think those that will bring 1-2 alacrity pieces will do better in PvP than those who ignore it, simply because it squeezes their rotation slightly closer together.

 

In that situation, sure. However, over the course of a WZ, any down time will result in more of a DPS loss. But you're right in the fact that it is an option. In fact, if you wanted to get real crazy, you could go two alacrity enhancements and all alacrity augments to get to ~10% alacrity. At this point you would have very noticeably faster attacks, faster dot ticks, very short CD on leap, and a 2.7 masterstrike channel (which all ticks fit in an Unremitting window.) Doing this yields very similar sustained DPS compared to strength and power augs, and better AOE due to more Vigilant Thrusts and faster dot ticks. However, the downside is that any downtime results in massive DPS drops, and you weaken your burst. That's why I recommend 0 alacrity for general gearing. But it is viable.

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This is correct; 95% accuracy should be your goal as both Vigilance and Focus. As for other stats, general baseline stat priorities are 95% accuracy > 0-150 crit rating (possibly up to 200) > 0 alacrity (while alacrity isn't bad, any downtime devalues alacrity) > rest power/surge. I prefer strength augments, but power is fine too. Overall DPS wise, strength augments are slightly better while power provides slightly better burst.

 

I'm still testing things out on my Guardian, but I should hopefully have some time this weekend to write up a bit of the PVP section for regs (arenas will take more time to get a decent amount of games in.)

 

I'm debating running a full surge build. Accuracy is a really meh stat in PVP simply due to the amount of DCD's and accuracy debuffs flying around. You could stack to 110/120/120 build of accuracy and still miss. I'd rather tbh just stack a full surge build TBH.

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I'm debating running a full surge build. Accuracy is a really meh stat in PVP simply due to the amount of DCD's and accuracy debuffs flying around. You could stack to 110/120/120 build of accuracy and still miss. I'd rather tbh just stack a full surge build TBH.

 

This is what I meant by its dynamic and there's no one true way to gear for PvP, despite what people will insist on. Here's another thing to consider, what if you're planning for arenas? Well if that's the case, and both teams carry a tank, with the tank accuracy debuffs lasting 45 seconds you will likely spend all your time debuffed, meaning you'd have to carry 100% accuracy to never miss.

 

Again though, never missing is only a sustained DPS increase, and burst DPS is what kills things in PvP, not sustained. BUT, a timely miss could allow someone to live as well.

 

The point is, the amount of variables in PvP are so high that beyond having max expertise and a similar total amount of stats, the point for point values very rarely make the difference between wins and losses.

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So, did a little testing with my guildies. With 4 pieces of alacrity (about 320 alacrity rating), they could not time a stun or knockback to prevent the damage from the last tick of my Ravage following Unstoppable unless on a Sniper using the Sniper knockback because of its lack of animation lag, and the Sniper only managed to get it 50% of the time, with full warning from me ahead of time and knowing to watch my buff bar for Unstoppable (which wouldn't be happening in a warzone obviously).

 

Figured some people would find that very interesting. I personally think I'll be rocking 4 pieces for Vengeance in PvP from now on, being able to have guaranteed Ravages after Unstoppable is too juicy for me to pass up (other than defensive cooldowns being popped of course).

 

Update: With 5 pieces of alacrity (395 rating), combining choke with ravage, and guildie spamming stuns/kb's after the choke ran out, they could not stop the last tick of ravage from hitting. So 5 pieces is guaranteed success, 4 would be enough in most cases for Unstoppable unless they have insane reflexes. This also has use for Marauders, as they can guarantee a Choke/Ravage combo will succeed, but I think its more important for Vengeance because of how often the Unstoppable/Ravage combo can be used.

Edited by wadecounty
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So, did a little testing with my guildies. With 4 pieces of alacrity (about 320 alacrity rating), they could not time a stun or knockback to prevent the damage from the last tick of my Ravage following Unstoppable unless on a Sniper using the Sniper knockback because of its lack of animation lag, and the Sniper only managed to get it 50% of the time, with full warning from me ahead of time and knowing to watch my buff bar for Unstoppable (which wouldn't be happening in a warzone obviously).

 

Figured some people would find that very interesting. I personally think I'll be rocking 4 pieces for Vengeance in PvP from now on, being able to have guaranteed Ravages after Unstoppable is too juicy for me to pass up (other than defensive cooldowns being popped of course).

 

Update: With 5 pieces of alacrity (395 rating), combining choke with ravage, and guildie spamming stuns/kb's after the choke ran out, they could not stop the last tick of ravage from hitting. So 5 pieces is guaranteed success, 4 would be enough in most cases for Unstoppable unless they have insane reflexes. This also has use for Marauders, as they can guarantee a Choke/Ravage combo will succeed, but I think its more important for Vengeance because of how often the Unstoppable/Ravage combo can be used.

 

Hmmm. This is a nice piece of work there. Time to run an Alacrity, Power build with Surge Augments in PvP?

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Was wondering about the discussion on Crit vs Power and where that took place if any one can link me to it so I can look over the numbers and test myself. I am finding it hard to believe that you really need 300 Crit, instead of just getting it to 100 and stacking Power, same with strength now that the extra is gone, I dont see the point of Augmenting strength.
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thanks for your guide

 

my last parse with 192 - 186 stuff :p (bonus set MASTER STRIKE +8%) & 4PC

 

with 186 3.0 i was at this

 

Are you intentionally running old 2pc?

 

Just curious.

 

I think sustained DPS with old 2pc Weaponmaster might be higher but with current ops being such movement and burst focused the 6pc probably wins out in on boss DPS.

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