As far as Mara Jade Skywalker coming back, no. It also gave the writers the reason with the Aboleth saga[as i call it] to have luke and his son bond even more. Which was nice. I actually enjoyed that a lot.

Far as Mara's death, not every death is epic, not every clash is going to be the fight of the titans. Was the fight and death anti-climatic? Yes, but you have to remember, it was very HUMAN. Look at any REAL fight, and I go to the words Jack Sparrow told Will Turner in the first Pirates movie.

"There's what a man can do, and what he will do". Jacen could of tried to fight honestly, and probably would of died, or he could of gone for the win and done something that Mara was not expecting. Remeber DARKSIDER AND SITH! In his situation I would of done the same exact thing and not even blinked about it.

No, mara did not need an epic death, she had a very realistic human fight and death, get over it guys. Stop with the whole fall girl for KT, and honestly, she does have a tad of bias when it comes to mandos since they were for the most part, her pet project, but nobody does a better gunfight than that lady.

Just like nobody does better space combat than Aaron Alliston.

IMO, everybody can take that hatred for her and stick it where the sun don't shine.

As far as Mara Jade Skywalker coming back, no. It also gave the writers the reason with the Aboleth saga[as i call it]

I have no idea why you would call it that.

to have luke and his son bond even more. Which was nice. I actually enjoyed that a lot.

Well guess what: If Mara's brought back, none of that gets cancelled out.

Far as Mara's death, not every death is epic, not every clash is going to be the fight of the titans. Was the fight and death anti-climatic? Yes, but you have to remember, it was very HUMAN. Look at any REAL fight, and I go to the words Jack Sparrow told Will Turner in the first Pirates movie.

 

"There's what a man can do, and what he will do". Jacen could of tried to fight honestly, and probably would of died, or he could of gone for the win and done something that Mara was not expecting. Remeber DARKSIDER AND SITH!

Sure. It still sucked, though. Although my problem is more with the idea than the actual execution of the idea.

In his situation I would of done the same exact thing and not even blinked about it.

That's nice.

No, mara did not need an epic death, she had a very realistic human fight and death, get over it guys.

Because the prime selling factor and reason people like SW is realism and utilitarian, non-dramatic fights between good and evil.

Stop with the whole fall girl for KT,

I don't understand people's attachment to that damn term, as it's demonstrably incorrect.

and honestly, she does have a tad of bias when it comes to mandos since they were for the most part, her pet project,

Let's not kid ourselves: she's wildly biased. Anyone who reads her books can tell that. Read the FAQ thing I posted, she *********** hates them.

but nobody does a better gunfight than that lady.

Then she should've stuck to RC and left the Jedi alone.

IMO, everybody can take that hatred for her and stick it where the sun don't shine.

I don't hate Karen Traviss, but I don't think you have the right to tell me to shove up opinions up my *** just because I think she did a terrible job.

Because she did, and it unnecessarily lost SW a good character.

I don't see why you're so defensive on her behalf, but I guess not everyone can be polite.

An interesting aside:

Zahn has gone on record saying that he would be OK with actually, no joke, really, no-fakeout-this-time bringing Thrawn back to life in an interview he did in 2007, if "circumstances demanded it", IE the galaxy needed a really damn good commander really *********** fast.

So Zahn is at least open to the idea of bringing characters back.

I have a hard time seeing any characters that have died brought back...this isn't exactly DC or Marvel, where death means ****...and characters can just spring back up out of nowhere.

I know how you feel, but it's not like this is an entirely new or unprecedented thing though. it does happen in SW, albeit very rarely.

If it was done right...I don't see why it shouldn't be done.

I know how you feel, but it's not like this is an entirely new or unprecedented thing though. it does happen in SW, albeit very rarely.

If it was done right...I don't see why it shouldn't be done.

Done right? Sure I can let it pass, but it still should just be a rare thing to happen. Having it happen constantly, would be terrible.

I'm opposed to bringing mara back[eventhough i loved her character] for the following reasons. It shows that the characters are indeed mortal and can die.

Sorry up until Vector prime, you really didn't see many people die. Oh sure you had the secondary character die here and there, and ofcourse prime bad guys here and there, but you never saw the main heros die till chewie.

It always seemed, didn't matter how much they danced on the razor's edge, they always came back alive, and it was starting to become "throw the original cast into the fire, let them burn a bit and bleed some, but they will never die!" That was getting BORING. Showing chewin, then anakin solo, then mara jade dying, brought in mortality and shows, even the best can die.

Does losing a beloved character suck? Yes. Try RA Salvatore, in his latest drizzt books, most of the original gang cept drizzt are dead. that's a rude shock right there. But it and these deaths show, life even in fantasy must roll along.

Why someday if they go as far as cade skywalker in the EU books, most the cast we know now, are going to die, whether we like it or not. Guess what guys. Han, Luke, Leia, Kyp durron, even Saba Sebatine, are not the spring chickens they used to be. By this point Han is pushing damn near 75-80, Leia and luke are WELL into their 60's. But the writers have them running around like they are still 30 years old assaulting the first death star.

These people are OLD. Hell right now, Luke is about as old as Obi-wan was in episode IV. Time for the books to start reflecting this.

Actually, if we can believe the promos for Crucible, the books are about to start reflecting their age.

Personally I think this timeline is about to stop and then Disney's timeline will take over. I can think of dozens of ways it could go, but I'm thinking we have Crucible and then the 3 Sword of the Jedi books that could potentially end the expanded universe, George Lucas era.

I'm opposed to bringing mara back[eventhough i loved her character] for the following reasons. It shows that the characters are indeed mortal and can die.

 

Sorry up until Vector prime, you really didn't see many people die. Oh sure you had the secondary character die here and there, and ofcourse prime bad guys here and there, but you never saw the main heros die till chewie.

 

It always seemed, didn't matter how much they danced on the razor's edge, they always came back alive, and it was starting to become "throw the original cast into the fire, let them burn a bit and bleed some, but they will never die!" That was getting BORING. Showing chewin, then anakin solo, then mara jade dying, brought in mortality and shows, even the best can die.

Yeah, but there's no reason to sacrifice a character that can still be used productively pointlessly. There were about a million better Jedi characters to kill off (what about Kyp? He hasn't done anything in EVER). One of the Solo kids was going to die at some point, we all knew that, and there was no point having Chewie around anymore either. I agree that the Bantam books were playing it way, way too safe, but the sword cuts both ways.

Does losing a beloved character suck? Yes. Try RA Salvatore, in his latest drizzt books, most of the original gang cept drizzt are dead. that's a rude shock right there. But it and these deaths show, life even in fantasy must roll along.

Not familiar with that series.

Why someday if they go as far as cade skywalker in the EU books, most the cast we know now, are going to die, whether we like it or not. Guess what guys. Han, Luke, Leia, Kyp durron, even Saba Sebatine, are not the spring chickens they used to be.

Yeah, by Cade's time, everyone will be dead. Sure, whatever, even if you accept Legacy as canon.

But those deaths won't and shouldn't be elaborated on or even mentioned, as it'll make Mass Effect's "Tali's face" controversy look miniscule by comparison. Just leave a huge *********** gap there. Just because they age and are mortal doesn't mean that they should just be killed off with no real sense behind it, to say nothing of the behind-the-scenes BS.

And what's Saba's lifespan, btw? Just curious.

By this point Han is pushing damn near 75-80, Leia and luke are WELL into their 60's.

Luke and Leia are both 63, yes. And Han is 73.

But the writers have them running around like they are still 30 years old assaulting the first death star.

You bring up a good point, however, there is one factor you're overlooking. In at least one book (Truce at Bakura), the author offhandedly mentions that the average human lifespan (due to all dat bacta, presumably) has now been extended by decades - to around 100-110, even 120 years old. Hell, force-sensitives have been able to extend their lives up to 800 years, according to Wookiepedia. 60-70 could be the new 40-50, for the SW universe. We shouldn't assume all our age paradigms apply there too.

These people are OLD. Hell right now, Luke is about as old as Obi-wan was in episode IV. Time for the books to start reflecting this.

Obi-Wan kinda aged quickly because Tatooine does that to people. It isn't necessarily a glimpse into Luke's future.

Yeah, but there's no reason to sacrifice a character that can still be used productively pointlessly. There were about a million better Jedi characters to kill off (what about Kyp? He hasn't done anything in EVER). One of the Solo kids was going to die at some point, we all knew that, and there was no point having Chewie around anymore either. I agree that the Bantam books were playing it way, way too safe, but the sword cuts both ways.

 

Not familiar with that series.

 

Yeah, by Cade's time, everyone will be dead. Sure, whatever, even if you accept Legacy as canon.

But those deaths won't and shouldn't be elaborated on or even mentioned, as it'll make Mass Effect's "Tali's face" controversy look miniscule by comparison. Just leave a huge *********** gap there. Just because they age and are mortal doesn't mean that they should just be killed off with no real sense behind it, to say nothing of the behind-the-scenes BS.

And what's Saba's lifespan, btw? Just curious.

 

Luke and Leia are both 63, yes. And Han is 73.

 

You bring up a good point, however, there is one factor you're overlooking. In at least one book (Truce at Bakura), the author offhandedly mentions that the average human lifespan (due to all dat bacta, presumably) has now been extended by decades - to around 100-110, even 120 years old. Hell, force-sensitives have been able to extend their lives up to 800 years, according to Wookiepedia. 60-70 could be the new 40-50, for the SW universe. We shouldn't assume all our age paradigms apply there too.

 

Obi-Wan kinda aged quickly because Tatooine does that to people. It isn't necessarily a glimpse into Luke's future.

For point 1, sacrificing somebody like Kyp Durron wouldn't of had the same affect and brought mortality in to stark view for the readers. Granted many loved Mara Jade, but, it did bring readers face to face with death and how it affects people. Look at Star Trek II[before they were even considering bringing back Spock]. Look how much of an impact that made and how it changed it all. Sometimes, one of the best known heros have to bite the bullet, it opens up so much more to do and where it can go.

It's the Drizzt Do'Urdern series of books, it's what made R.A.Salvatore famous.

Barbel lifespans, i think they are the same as the rest of us, but i am not exactly sure, have to look that one up.

And again even with increased lifespans, it doesn't HALT the anging process. 63 and 73 still gonna feel like 63 and 73. And using the force to prolong your life, that is well very much dark side, and if Luke had done that, don't you think he'd be smacking the ever loving crap out of his great-great-great-grandson?

I mean look at Pellion. He was 90, granted his health was decent, but he wasn't doing things he used to do when he was serving under Thawn. Same with Wedge and Tycho. You see them grow old and yeah they can still fly and they have LEAGUES of experience, only thing that keeps up with the speed and youth younger pilots.

Yeah we see Han starting, and i mean STARTING to show his age, but the guy fights and moves like he's still 30. He's STILL pulling under-arm shots like he was 30. Sorry the main heros like luke, leia and Han, really need to start showing AGE. Same with Kyp, Saba, most the masters, time to start seeing them start to step aside from the fighting and let more of the younger jedi come to the front.

I mean they have started to with hints of seeing Jaden Korr, and focusing some on Jaina, but not enough.

I think her death was necessary honestly.

Might have been a bit too soon, or could have played out differently, but I guess they needed to come up with something to assert Jacen's evil-ness.

As for the Mandalorians, I think FOTJ put them back in balance for the most part.

Mara's death, while the scene itself was bad, does make some sense. You have to realize that Jacen was trying to turn Ben to the Darkside. What better way than to kill his mother? It just so happens that Karen Traviss killed her off. KT hated Mara Jade, and Jedi as a wwhole. She didn't listen to the other authors.

 

Being a huge Mara Jade fan, I would hate it if they brought her back to life at this point. I would like to see her death scene re-written to give her a better, more fitting death. But since she is dead, and I hate saying this, she should remain dead. Bringing her back wpuld be a huge undertaking. How would it even be done? Luke would not want her to be cloned, so that would eliminate that idea.

 

Karen didn't hate Mara nor did she take the action against the other author's wishes... everything she did was according to the story-line that was agreed to by LA and all authors that took part in the project... there was no personal motive it was simply a plot point they all agreed to that happened to take place during the book in the series she was writing..

kinda getting sick of clueless fans trying to blame authors for things that were approved by people much higher than them...

Karen didn't hate Mara nor did she take the action against the other author's wishes... everything she did was according to the story-line that was agreed to by LA and all authors that took part in the project... there was no personal motive it was simply a plot point they all agreed to that happened to take place during the book in the series she was writing..

 

kinda getting sick of clueless fans trying to blame authors for things that were approved by people much higher than them...

No she didn't hate the jedi or Mara Jade. I think she just drew the short straw and got stuck with having to kill Jade.

I think her beef with the jedi/sith, was that most books made them all powerful immortals capable of anything. She merely wanted to make them mortals. Why I like the RC books so much when she brought in jedi. She posed moral questions to them and made them actually HUMAN. Actually have feelings, actually question morality instead of taking for granted whatever they said is instantly right.

Put again, this is just me taking a stab at it, I in no way actually know what KT thought or didn't think.

Talon VII, I understand what you're getting at. Frankly, they'll never actually age the characters too much, the fans just wouldn't take it. I just don't think Mara's death is something that served SW very well in the long run, especially seeing as they've already had her return in ghost form oddly often already.

and Talon, did you look at the FAQ I posted? She goes into quite a lot of detail about her perception of the Jedi. she doesn't hate them because they've been invulnerable in previous books, she dislikes them because she genuinely thinks they're immoral on some deep level. The clone thing is still coming into play, somehow, it would seem.

Anyway, I'm going to send my Zahn books off to him to be signed fairly soon (he does it for free, the nice man), and maybe I'll slip in a letter and ask him about it myself. Can't hurt, right?

Karen didn't hate Mara nor did she take the action against the other author's wishes... everything she did was according to the story-line that was agreed to by LA and all authors that took part in the project...

Except it was her idea entirely, she came up with it, LIKE I SAID BEFORE. Which was kinda weird.

And yes, what she did was against the author's wishes. Read any of the interviews they did with Zahn. The fact of the matter was, he was out of the loop and no one bothered to ask his opinion.

And no, she didn't hate Mara. She does really have a thing about Jedi, though.

there was no personal motive

Yeah there was, in that she thought it was a good idea. There are, however, many who disagree - and I think it's a perspective worth considering.

it was simply a plot point they all agreed to that happened to take place during the book in the series she was writing..

Does that make it immune from criticism?

kinda getting sick of clueless fans trying to blame authors for things that were approved by people much higher than them...

Did you read the Wookiepedia article? Did you read Traviss' Jedi FAQ thing I posted? Did you actually look into this at all? Or are you just inadvertently revealing your own ignorance of what's going on in the guise of condemning my supposed ignorance?

Quit with the pointless ellipses, and try not to embarrass yourself any more.

And yeah, sure, it was approved by people higher than them. You know what else was approved at the highest level? Episode I. It doesn't mean it's invulnerable to criticism.

To say nothing of the fact that it was Traviss' original idea and something she insisted on doing. That is absolutely something she was responsible for.

Jag i can see what you are saying. But again I contest regardless of KT, it made the characters DEAL WITH DEATH.

It opens up so much more than what was there before. Granted she comes back as a force ghost, but how many times in the movies and the books that took place in between the 3 movies did Obi-wan in some way shape or form appear to help Luke?

Those that are strong in the force can come back as force ghosts, but only for so long. From what I have read, the more times you do it, the weaker you become until finally you cannot come back anymore.

Again i point to Star Trek II. Look up the conversation at the end between Kirk and his Son. Then you'll understand why as much as I didn't like the decision to kill Mara, but I get why they did it. Plus would it really had an affect for Jacen to kill somebody like say Kyp Durron to become Caedus? No, it wouldn't of had the same meaning, the same sacrifice.

Think of even Robotech. For Rick Hunter to rise and become the true hero, his older brother Roy Folkker had to die.

Granted I loved roy as a character, but I understood why he had to go.

I lke that people die off, they cant live forever and given that you can write a book about any timeline the characters can always be revisited.

These events can help progress the storyline though and move up the time table a bit more.