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Enlighten me...Need a reality check Assassin.


Soljin

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Not a Nerf call but a serious question.

 

Since 1.4 I have had a major issue countering Assasins/Mirror. I attribute this issue somewhat to the resolve change but not entirely. So maybe they have always had this potential...and I have not run into a good one since the Nerf of the Super self healing Tankasin.

 

Now What Im asking for is a straight up schooling here..I have not been able to come up with a counter on my own...So Im asking for help...and some smart remarks are fine as well.

 

Im Running a LOLDerpaSmash Jugg or whatever its called now...and have been for some time. I hold my own well enough but get stomped occasionally by a Well played AC of any type really. In the Den I usually Win the majority of my encounters with the occassional cloner trip. Jugg isnt tough to play we all know that.

 

Now I run into a Sin the other day that challenges me to a duel...I accept and of course end up on my face...i dont hit my Breaker fast enough and take serious dmg from the opening rotation...I then pop Saber Ward and go to work...Immune to my first Smash ...they blew their CD just before I hit the button (Just saw it coming)...I screamed first incase of KB etc....Now I have a DoT dropped on me and am getting kited...Start into my next rotation and die.

 

BTW Im full WH 20k HP 1250 Expertise etc...

 

Have run into this same encounter a few times and If I trinket fast and turn the tables I just eat a stun...and then my previous example occurs...Seems like they have an answer no matter what I do.

 

So in summary: Are there tips for turning this in my favor....I would love advice... You dont always know when they are around so its pretty hard to not start out on your face...and some of them seem to do some serious hurt in a very short time...and its hard to recover from. So Enlighten me.

 

If you feel the urge to L2P me go to one of the Gear gap threads instead.

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Good thread idea, looking forward to replies myself. I have an assassin (no mirror) and was going to log in to it this weekend to see if I can figure out why I'm having a harder time with them in PVP lately than I used to. Haven't played it in a while and not aware yet firsthand how any nerfs or buffs might have played out. Edited by Joesixxpack
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Soljin... from my experience, assassins are a tough counter for many classes and probably the best 1v1 class in game. My opinion anyways but maybe it's because I have a hard time countering them as well. One of my guildies that I play with more than anyone else is a very good assassin. Palmsolo, you've probably seen him around. He's run almost every spec there is out there and does well with them all. We duel fairly often and with my marauder... annihilation is normally my best bet. Those duels go very back and forth but with rage spec... it normally doesn't end well for me. I think rage is just a lousy counter to an assassin.

 

Anyways... since we're same server and same faction. He'll most likely be on tonight and you can jump in our vent if you want. I'm sure he'd be willing to break down countering assassins of each spec. We could even make a dueling event out of it. It's been a while since I've rounded one up but the turnout is usually pretty good and makes for a good time.

 

Hit me up later if you want. I should be on tonight and he prolly will be too.

 

Uglymrj

Uglymr-j

Awshii'et

Ug'ajug

 

I'll most likely be on one of the first two.

Edited by UGLYMRJ
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Lol, whats up ugly my man ;)

 

Anyway, to the topic at hand. The cold hard truth is that your rage spec is just a straight up lousy counter to assassins. From reading your post, I am having a difficult time trying to figure out what spec this assassin is. You say he puts dots on you, which leads me to say madness, but you also describe a powerful opener, and some really big burst, which comes from deception. Madness does have some burst potential, but not at the levels your talking about. And deception has no dots, unless they take 2 secs to cast a crushing darkness, which I'm sure you would have noticed. So my best guess is that he was playing a 14/27 hybrid or some variant. But either way, it just sucks to be a rage warrior vs assassins. Madness can dot you up and just kite all day. Deception knocks you on your butt and unloads. You mentioned him resisting your first smash, which can be attributed to force shroud.

 

I mostly play deception, and am more familiar with it, so from here on in ill speak about that spec. First off, we get a straight 30% AOE damage reduction, plus another 25% from Dark Embrace, which will likely be up, especially in duels. So your OMGWTF 6k smash was just turned into 2-3k. And that pretty much kills rage spec right then and there, without that big hit, your done. And then deception will follow it up with multiple 5-6k hits of their own. Deception assassins are among the hardest bursting classes in the game, if not number 1. And yes, they do have a lot off cc, with Deception getting an extra 4 sec mezz in addition to everything else the class gets. Honestly, the matchup is just so far in Deception assassins favor, that I really have very little help to offer you, other than do not be caught alone, as that is where Deception thrives, in 1v1s. Pop your cds, use freezing force and crush to slow them as much as you can, try to kite if you can. Popping those cds will help with the initial burst.

 

At the end of the day though, Rage spec is the new FOTM, because OP or not, its easy, fun, and gets big results. And Deception assassins serve as the best counter to them right now, with their ability to resist or shrink that 6k smash, and then retaliate with multiple huge hits of their own. Rock, paper, scissors kind of matchup here.

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EDIT: The post above me says exactly what I'm thinking, minus typos and totally worn out mind that may lead to some sentences not making much sense :p

 

Well firstly sins can get 60-70% dmg reduction to your smashy smashy. But I gather that isn't your problem with them as you were focusing on their ability to interupt/resists/cc you a lot? Well yea I guess it's just the amount of tools we get. Low Slash, Spike, Stun, that's 3 I use a lot. out of combat mez, but that couldn't have affected your duels.

 

Also have to point out that smashy-smashies are my prime target as they're just so squishy too. Been loving the assassin with 1.4 love.

 

You mentioned dotted and kited? Madness assassins are rare, played it a few times and had great fun but lacked the spike potential.

 

Smash specs counter is normally just ti pure out-DPS I imagine? Just can't be done against an assassin really :/

Edited by Biggilus
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Lol, whats up ugly my man ;)

 

Anyway, to the topic at hand. The cold hard truth is that your rage spec is just a straight up lousy counter to assassins. From reading your post, I am having a difficult time trying to figure out what spec this assassin is. You say he puts dots on you, which leads me to say madness, but you also describe a powerful opener, and some really big burst, which comes from deception. Madness does have some burst potential, but not at the levels your talking about. And deception has no dots, unless they take 2 secs to cast a crushing darkness, which I'm sure you would have noticed. So my best guess is that he was playing a 14/27 hybrid or some variant. But either way, it just sucks to be a rage warrior vs assassins. Madness can dot you up and just kite all day. Deception knocks you on your butt and unloads. You mentioned him resisting your first smash, which can be attributed to force shroud.

 

I mostly play deception, and am more familiar with it, so from here on in ill speak about that spec. First off, we get a straight 30% AOE damage reduction, plus another 25% from Dark Embrace, which will likely be up, especially in duels. So your OMGWTF 6k smash was just turned into 2-3k. And that pretty much kills rage spec right then and there, without that big hit, your done. And then deception will follow it up with multiple 5-6k hits of their own. Deception assassins are among the hardest bursting classes in the game, if not number 1. And yes, they do have a lot off cc, with Deception getting an extra 4 sec mezz in addition to everything else the class gets. Honestly, the matchup is just so far in Deception assassins favor, that I really have very little help to offer you, other than do not be caught alone, as that is where Deception thrives, in 1v1s. Pop your cds, use freezing force and crush to slow them as much as you can, try to kite if you can. Popping those cds will help with the initial burst.

 

At the end of the day though, Rage spec is the new FOTM, because OP or not, its easy, fun, and gets big results. And Deception assassins serve as the best counter to them right now, with their ability to resist or shrink that 6k smash, and then retaliate with multiple huge hits of their own. Rock, paper, scissors kind of matchup here.

 

Thanks for the response...and this is kind of what I expected to hear. Generally I can tell if I was just outplayed when I think back and go "DoH! I should have done this" But with this match up I really just end up feeling pretty helpless...and have very little to take away from the fight as far as future ideas.

 

Im not sure of the build either. I would have asked but the Person I dueled was chain dueling their Mara friend...and after taking me out pretty much ignored me and declined all my duel requests after...I wanted to try some different approaches but they snubbed me :)

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Soljin... from my experience, assassins are a tough counter for many classes and probably the best 1v1 class in game. My opinion anyways but maybe it's because I have a hard time countering them as well. One of my guildies that I play with more than anyone else is a very good assassin. Palmsolo, you've probably seen him around. He's run almost every spec there is out there and does well with them all. We duel fairly often and with my marauder... annihilation is normally my best bet. Those duels go very back and forth but with rage spec... it normally doesn't end well for me. I think rage is just a lousy counter to an assassin.

 

Anyways... since we're same server and same faction. He'll most likely be on tonight and you can jump in our vent if you want. I'm sure he'd be willing to break down countering assassins of each spec. We could even make a dueling event out of it. It's been a while since I've rounded one up but the turnout is usually pretty good and makes for a good time.

 

Hit me up later if you want. I should be on tonight and he prolly will be too.

 

Uglymrj

Uglymr-j

Awshii'et

Ug'ajug

 

I'll most likely be on one of the first two.

 

Yeah that would be great. Ill try to hit you up..Im working 3hrs from home so its hit or miss if I get home in time to play. If I do I'll hit you up. Thanks.

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Yeah that would be great. Ill try to hit you up..Im working 3hrs from home so its hit or miss if I get home in time to play. If I do I'll hit you up. Thanks.

 

Sounds good... home in just over 3 hours and probably be on most of the night and a lot of tomorrow as well. Even if you miss us just add me. Me and Palm are both pretty active so I'm sure it wouldn't take long to catch up with us.

 

Oh yeah... what up Rank!

 

Catch ya tonight mang!

Edited by UGLYMRJ
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I don't really have any great tips (I don't have an Assassin / Shadow above 19, so I don't know the class well enough to help see it from their perspective), but it's a huge disadvantage to play a Focus spec against any class you can't Force Leap + Sweep against to open (so, stealth and Gunslingers/Snipers). That's a huge bunch of upfront burst lost right there.

 

I'm a little unclear on when you're saying you're using your CC breaker, though - is it on the knockdown? I don't know if that's the best time to use it (using a CC breaker to get out of being incapacitated for two seconds isn't as useful as it could be elsewhere).

 

I don't really duel much - just trying to think of 1v1 situations I come across in warzones.

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I'm a little unclear on when you're saying you're using your CC breaker, though - is it on the knockdown? I don't know if that's the best time to use it (using a CC breaker to get out of being incapacitated for two seconds isn't as useful as it could be elsewhere).

 

If this guys right that's one thing I can say for sure... eat the spike and save it for the hard stun. You're gonna eat some damage in the beginning. It's tough too cuz they'll almost always start from stealth so you can't even pop a DCD before getting spiked into the ground.

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respec to vengeance and have your way with him. since most of vengeance damage is white damage it tears right through their resilience from my experience most sin/shadows run from vengeance jugs

 

have to agree.i usally run deception on my sin..if i see a rage spec jugg i gonna go on him off top cuz 98% of the time its a easy kill..now a good vengeance jugg i probably avoid fighting him.. if i'm running deception cuz of my squishiness..

 

some vengeance juggs run the spec in tank stance..making them hard to kill and they dish out good steady damage..like he said white damage go through force shroud..if i'm running tankasin i will fight that vengeance jugg head on..cuz i have some tools in that skill tree to deal with the jugg.

Edited by Xertasian
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Some classes are just hard to fight for other classes. For exaple you come up against me your biggest hit (smash) will hit me for 1.4-3.4k depending if i have a cooldown active or not, ill just run away from ravage, that leaves you with scream and vicious slash and that most probably wont be enought to win.
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Adding to my posts, in light of some points that have been brought up by others.

 

First off, never ever ever EVER use your cc breaker on the knockdown. The knockdown is only 2 seconds, and even though its a painful 2 seconds, your best option is to man up and eat it. Otherwise, you have to eat the 4 sec stun, during which we can unload even more than we can during the 2 sec. The optimal choice is to just eat every stun until you are white barred, then use it, and be immune for the rest for the fight. If they haven't killed you by then, then you should win because they are a terrible assassin player.

 

The reason you want to save the cc breaker as long as you can, is for their out of combat sap. The thing that makes assassins almost invincible in 1v1s, is the ability to vanish, sap you, and then use the out of combat channeled heal for 8 secs, and be full health again. Then they have virtually no trouble finishing you off, because you will be hurting from the first engagement, while they come in almost brand new. If you have gotten them down to the point where they have to use that trick, you can probably beat them, IF they do not get to heal back up. So do not let them do that.

 

It is true that vengeance will fare better than rage. If we open on you, use push, then leap in order to get your cc immunity for 4 seconds. White damage is not affected by force shroud either, but your burns still will be. We do have deflection as a white damage DCD, but it is only 50%, equivalent to Saber Ward.

 

Assassins and operatives are the kings of ambushing and quickly destroying you, that's what the class is designed to do. So the longer you can survive, the better your chances get.

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As a tankasin, I find Rage Juggs generally quite easy to beat. Simply put, judicious use of defensive CDs (shroud, cloak), CCs (electrocute, spike, whirlwind, overload) and kiting (slow him or use speed) can prevent the Jugg from getting his smash off. And if a Rage Jugg cant smash, he can't kill you.

 

The one thing than can work well is that if the Assassin doesn't have his CC breaker available, jump to him, use choke, then smash right after choke expires. That way at least you can get 1 smash in, since he can't break choke so he can't avoid the smash. Thats only one part of the fight, though...

 

If you want to duel, since you're also on the Bastion, add me (Adraaj). Ive always found Smash Juggs to be fun to duel against, even before they became popular in 1.4.

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I run the hybrid spec of 23/3/15 And we are a very hard class to counter for many people the only guys who take down shadows or assassins 1 v 1 is a skillful player. I can hold off a juggernaut and his healer for quite some time till my team mates arrive and I am in DPS Gear not Tanking.

 

Than it time to nerf your class.

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Be aggressive would be my advice - if you can put him under pressure he might make a mistake or two which is the only chance in hell you have of beating any of the specs. Deceptions survivability revolves around you being cc'd and you dont have the tools to kite or extend the fight - trying is just playing into his hands really.

Just tunnel damage into him, even if its just slashes he'll drop fast and he might panic and do something stupid.

 

Madness will have no issue with a long fight their dots will give them a fair bit of healing over time and they have a lot of range attacks, they can deadzone you all day if they want to. If he gets a mind crush up with the other dots then you'll just melt really and the fight is more or less over.

 

Both rely on melee attacks to proc their hard hitters so use saber ward after the first shock for deception and as soon as they move into melee range with madness.

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