No Luke and Maul are pretty much even in regards to everything.

Really? Maul mastered Niman, so that gives him about as much, if not more, knowledge of the combination of forms that Luke Knows. He also Mastered Juyo, which is something Luke never faced, because the Sith lord he fought simply wasn't capable of using it to it's full extent.

Let's not forget Teras Kasi, which gives Maul a greater range too.

Of course, Maul is noted as one of the most Agile characters in the Mythos in sourcebooks, getting a rating of 20, where Ventress get's an 18, and people like Kenobi and Skywalker get 12/14.

And Maul can bench press 180lbs in a standard military bench press (Like a baus )

Dude, he dueled Darth Sidious and was holding ground.

As for force, think that's pretty obvious.

TBH, I'd put Traya above both Leia and Lule.

There is no way in Hell that she can Force Drain them outright, it will only weaken them.

But combined they are leaps and bounds ahead of the Jedi Council.

Luke in terms of his connection to the Force is likely equal to Vader. Not as refined, but that's not important here. And with Force Harmony that increases substantially.

 

There is no way in Hell that she can Force Drain them outright, it will only weaken them.

 

But combined they are leaps and bounds ahead of the Jedi Council.

Well, I don't think you can flat out drain people your strength anyway...

But yeh, I'd say she and Luke are pretty well matched, she's just more refined too.

However, on Malachor (The Likely place of this confrontation) she'd have the ability to draw on Force he cannot, and he would be under the influence of the Planet as well.

We already knew he was a beast

 

I'm planning on getting Lockdown myself.

And its said to tie in with Darth Plagueis, I can't see that explicitly right now but there is definitely potential.

One assumes Traya wouldn't be smart enough to make this a 2 vs 2, Traya & Maul vs Luke and Leia, Leia is going to be a little bit busy not being decapitated.

Lol, If Leia's bolstering him with Force Harmony, Maul will be busy decapitating her.

Lets not concern ourselves with potential here. I think there is something to be said about strengthening one's connection to the Force over time. That said we have to remember that Luke was close to Vader's power at this point, and Leia will be bolstering him with Force Harmony. Combined, they are the superior Force Users.

Leia herself is argueably getting close to Vader's level by this as well, She is able to out speed and out duel people half her age, Her Mental offenses and defenses are some of the most powerful in the order being on par with that of her GM brother. (she could defend her mind against a sith who mind tricked 30 other sith, and managed to make a small mind trick to Master Luke and Unu-thul, to top this all off Leia mind tricked this person for a short time as well.)

Not to mention at this point Leia and Traya are the same age. I would argue Leia as the clear very superior duelist and as faster, not because of an era difference or anything but because of the characters track records. Traya while possessing a great deal of knowledge and understanding of forms has never really beaten any one with her saber that was in better shape then her. Her skills with a lightsaber, seem mostly theoretical as most duels she has to very heavily rely on her force powers to get by. Leia on the other hand uses her powers almost exclusively for defense, force Repulses to defend against thrown objects as her own Levitation skills need a lot of work but her repulses are strong. The ability to Root herself in the Force to a degree that no one has been able to budge her with a Force push if she isnt caught off gaurd. And of course the Mental defenses mentioned earlier. With these defenses protecting her against most forms of Force powers she then duels opponents and has beaten opponents less then half her age with arguably as much training thanks to her ability to make herself faster and to a certain degree her own skill with a blade. She doesnt use the Shoto Saber much any more save for the occassional unorthodox attack pattern from an enemy so she uses it as a defense.

Even with Force Drain 1v1 I would give Traya around 65:35 against Leia solo, with out the help of Force Harmony or Battle meld increasing power or allowing perfect synchronization. The drain of course slowing Leia down and making it harder for her to call on the force while simultaneously bolstering Traya for a short time would give Traya that momentary edge to take the win in most occassions. But Leia is more then powerful enough to contend with all other abilities close distance and more then skilled enough with the blade to put Traya on the Ropes for a bit in my opinion.

Really? Maul mastered Niman, so that gives him about as much, if not more, knowledge of the combination of forms that Luke Knows. He also Mastered Juyo, which is something Luke never faced, because the Sith lord he fought simply wasn't capable of using it to it's full extent.

 

Let's not forget Teras Kasi, which gives Maul a greater range too.

Of course, Maul is noted as one of the most Agile characters in the Mythos in sourcebooks, getting a rating of 20, where Ventress get's an 18, and people like Kenobi and Skywalker get 12/14.

 

And Maul can bench press 180lbs in a standard military bench press (Like a baus )

 

Dude, he dueled Darth Sidious and was holding ground.

 

As for force, think that's pretty obvious.

But on Malachor and without Leia's help - probably not.

As for the state of the debate, to be quite honest as much as I hate to admit it it might just come down to a fight in the Core. If both parties lose their shipyards and destroy eachother in space. However I think we do need to look closer at the tactics employable by the stealth fleet going on the offensive, possibly bypassing the blockade on Hapes and invading. I'd make some arguments myself but I'm sure Sel & Co. can come up with something.

Reposting so it doesn't get lost. I feel this is important.

Vader created his own hybrid style that incorporated all seven forms of lightsaber combat and is a considerably superior Force User. Yet Luke matched him blow for blow, I think Luke would stand a substantial chance here.

 

But on Malachor and without Leia's help - probably not.

Yes, of course he stands a chance, but Maul is just Physically and even with Lightsaber styles, superior. That's why I said luke knew a lot of forms, but Maul likely knew them better, and of course, knew Juyo like a baus. Whilst Luke stands a chance, he won't win without a significant advantage.

Put em both in the Battlezone and Maul would win

But we also have to think about the chances of Maul's Dun Moch working, if he was to make a few remarks about Assassins heading for Leia, and of course Knowing where Leia was, what she was doing, who was guarding her (Via Traya's ability in Shatterpoint and Dark Sight) he could make a pretty convincing story, that would make Luke attempt to Rush to duel and head back, or out right attempt to flee (And get butchered)

Of course, that only works if they haven't come to Malachor.

As for the state of the debate, to be quite honest as much as I hate to admit it it might just come down to a fight in the Core. If both parties lose their shipyards and destroy eachother in space. However I think we do need to look closer at the tactics employable by the stealth fleet going on the offensive, possibly bypassing the blockade on Hapes and invading. I'd make some arguments myself but I'm sure Sel & Co. can come up with something.

 

Reposting so it doesn't get lost. I feel this is important.

The issue is going to be them over coming ground troops, that are defending Leia's position and defending hapes. They just dont have the equipment or man power i feel to move them off ESPECIALLY off the Island as I am not aware of ANY boats the DI has to get past the aquatic Navies.

Traya and Maul wont be likely to fight Luke and Leia, they are likely to fight hundreds if not thousands of troops.

As for the state of the debate, to be quite honest as much as I hate to admit it it might just come down to a fight in the Core. If both parties lose their shipyards and destroy eachother in space. However I think we do need to look closer at the tactics employable by the stealth fleet going on the offensive, possibly bypassing the blockade on Hapes and invading. I'd make some arguments myself but I'm sure Sel & Co. can come up with something.

 

Reposting so it doesn't get lost. I feel this is important.

Yeh I didn't see that, I'll work on something, but the questions I posed remain.

What does the Raxus Scenario look like? Because to be honest, It very well could happen, and I think it's a likely way for IG-88 to die.

Is HK-47 allowed to me modified by Maul?

The issue is going to be them over coming ground troops, that are defending Leia's position and defending hapes. They just dont have the equipment or man power i feel to move them off ESPECIALLY off the Island as I am not aware of ANY boats the DI has to get past the aquatic Navies.

 

Traya and Maul wont be likely to fight Luke and Leia, they are likely to fight hundreds if not thousands of troops.

You'd need boats bringing supplies too and fro from the Island, Assassins sneak in 1 by 1, followed by maul and HK-47, boom, Leia Dead, bobs your uncle.

Yes, of course he stands a chance, but Maul is just Physically and even with Lightsaber styles, superior. That's why I said luke knew a lot of forms, but Maul likely knew them better, and of course, knew Juyo like a baus. Whilst Luke stands a chance, he won't win without a significant advantage.

 

Put em both in the Battlezone and Maul would win

 

But we also have to think about the chances of Maul's Dun Moch working, if he was to make a few remarks about Assassins heading for Leia, and of course Knowing where Leia was, what she was doing, who was guarding her (Via Traya's ability in Shatterpoint and Dark Sight) he could make a pretty convincing story, that would make Luke attempt to Rush to duel and head back, or out right attempt to flee (And get butchered)

 

Of course, that only works if they haven't come to Malachor.

Lawls to Maul being Luke's physical superior. Luke out powered Vader, who is stronger, he is fast enough to make super human sped droids look like they are moving in slow motion. And his TK abilities were enough to hold up an AT-ST while dueling with his saber. He was a capable user of Jar'kai the moment he even picked up a sword. i stand by my original assessment 50:50 in a one on one duel.

Not to mention at this point Leia and Traya are the same age. I would argue Leia as the clear very superior duelist and as faster, not because of an era difference or anything but because of the characters track records. Traya while possessing a great deal of knowledge and understanding of forms has never really beaten any one with her saber that was in better shape then her. Her skills with a lightsaber, seem mostly theoretical as most duels she has to very heavily rely on her force powers to get by.

But anyway I don't need to say much else, I've already said it.

Call it theoretical but it works, and it works well. Traya is going to recognize and exploit the weaknesses in Leia's form with practiced ease, and she's going to chain powerful Force based attacks into her lightsaber sequence.

Really? Maul mastered Niman, so that gives him about as much, if not more, knowledge of the combination of forms that Luke Knows. He also Mastered Juyo, which is something Luke never faced, because the Sith lord he fought simply wasn't capable of using it to it's full extent.

 

Let's not forget Teras Kasi, which gives Maul a greater range too.

Of course, Maul is noted as one of the most Agile characters in the Mythos in sourcebooks, getting a rating of 20, where Ventress get's an 18, and people like Kenobi and Skywalker get 12/14.

 

And Maul can bench press 180lbs in a standard military bench press (Like a baus )

 

Dude, he dueled Darth Sidious and was holding ground.

 

As for force, think that's pretty obvious.

Yes really, their speed is about even. Luke has moved his blade fast enough to leave behind afterimages, weave curtains, deflect fire from dozens of enemies, deflect AT-ST bolts n so on.

Maul has shown similar, producing webs and shields from his blade, fast enough to react blaster fire from 20 enemies.

Dun Moch > Teras Kai

TK wise Luke has manipulated bombs/machines on all corners of Cloud City, supported AT-STs, Lightsaber throw so on.

Maul meanwhile has shattered doors, thrown people far back, saber throw and so on.

Saber skill Luke has matched Vader, held out against Mourne who was amped, beat Luiyma and stalemated Flint.

Maul has beat Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Anoon and Darsha.

Maul will be relentless but with Luke and his Djem So it has a potent defense and returns very powerful and effective counters. He also does know Ataru.

Actually Luke is physically superior to Maul, hand stands on 1 finger with Yoda on his feet. He carried Vader all the way to the hanger bay of the 2nd DS while injured from Sidious' lighting and of course using Djem So his strength is pertinent for him.

Maul does have him in physical resillience though a lightsaber is gonna negate that me thinks.

You'd need boats bringing supplies too and fro from the Island, Assassins sneak in 1 by 1, followed by maul and HK-47, boom, Leia Dead, bobs your uncle.

The island is set up with scanners all around, I dont know how you are going to get those guys on those boats. Not to mention the real issue. Go ahead steal a boat, your troops dont know the safe ways through waters and will just die to the Carnivorous seaweed on the way there.

I have to stand in for Traya here and disagree. The only reason we haven't seen her beat anyone is because we've only seen her in one fight. Yet despite that she takes the Exile head on in lightsaber combat, the Exile who had likely mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat at his point.

 

But anyway I don't need to say much else, I've already said it.

 

Call it theoretical but it works, and it works well. Traya is going to recognize and exploit the weaknesses in Leia's form with practiced ease, and she's going to chain powerful Force based attacks into her lightsaber sequence.

Leia has fought people who chain Force abilities into their powers before and we have seen more then 1 duel with Traya, with out her using force powers. In every time that it has happened she got trounced. Once being stripped of her command the other losing her hand. Every single duel she is in she loses. Leia knows the basics of all the forms as well and has beaten people half her age time and again.

They are the same age, if one can beat people half their age on a regular basis and the other hasnt been shown winning a single saber duel why do you guys make the immidiate assumption that the second one can hold out in a duel.

Edit: this isnt an era thing, this is taking character history and comparing them to how they preform in their own era. Traya does not have a record of doing well with a saber, every duel she gets in with just it she loses. Leia on the other hand has a very long track record of dominating duels with people half or even a third of her age. Clearly Leia would be the superior duelist, in any kind of analysis.

The issue is going to be them over coming ground troops, that are defending Leia's position and defending hapes. They just dont have the equipment or man power i feel to move them off ESPECIALLY off the Island as I am not aware of ANY boats the DI has to get past the aquatic Navies.

 

Traya and Maul wont be likely to fight Luke and Leia, they are likely to fight hundreds if not thousands of troops.

Remember the mission to Ralltiir? He took on a legion of elite Black Sun mercenaries and slaughtered them all, he then defeated all eight of the Vigo bodyguards and proceeded to slay a Nightsister. He suffered no injuries.

And this was long before he reached the pinnacle of his abilities, this was his first mission.

And I assume we are talking about the Reef Fortress here?

Also remember that you only have so many Hapan Forces, and only so many can be gathered in one place, also remembering that the Imperium would likely bring the full might of its forces to bear. There will be a fight.

Just noting Tune, you got access to subs too not just boats.

ya I know, it was my overall point that getting past an aquatic navy when the enemy has no aquatic vehicles is going to be pretty stinking hard. And even then you have to deal with the massive amounts of body gaurds and kill your target before help arrives, which is all around.

Leia has fought people who chain Force abilities into their powers before and we have seen more then 1 duel with Traya, with out her using force powers. In every time that it has happened she got trounced. Once being stripped of her command the other losing her hand. Every single duel she is in she loses. Leia knows the basics of all the forms as well and has beaten people half her age time and again.

 

They are the same age, if one can beat people half their age on a regular basis and the other hasnt been shown winning a single saber duel why do you guys make the immidiate assumption that the second one can hold out in a duel.

You are joking right....

She was being stripped of the Force by Nihilus, Sion did Nothing.

Besides, not like Traya needs it, she's killed 12 assassins on the spot using Dark Transfer, she's proficient in Force Lightning and Drain, Telekinetic Lightsaber strikes and many other force abilities.

She'd whoop Leia 1v1.

Well I'd point out here that Maul would be perfect for such an operation.

 

Remember the mission to Ralltiir? He took on a legion of elite Black Sun mercenaries and slaughtered them all, he then defeated all eight of the Vigo bodyguards and proceeded to slay a Nightsister. He suffered no injuries.

 

And this was long before he reached the pinnacle of his abilities, this was his first mission.

 

And I assume we are talking about the Reef Fortress here?

 

Also remember that you only have so many Hapan Forces, and only so many can be gathered in one place, also remembering that the Imperium would likely bring the full might of its forces to bear. There will be a fight.

Dont need hapan forces, the Rebels have an aquatic Navy. I have a core of rebels a division of Spec forces and likely a couple divisions of Hapan soldiers to back them up along with the elite Royal gaurd.

ya I know, it was my overall point that getting past an aquatic navy when the enemy has no aquatic vehicles is going to be pretty stinking hard. And even then you have to deal with the massive amounts of body gaurds and kill your target before help arrives, which is all around.

Btw, didn't that Ambassador sneak loads of Assassins onto the Island? So their detectors can't be that great.

Besides, the best of the Bladeborn and Traya (Likely Maul too) knew the Sith Trance, allowing them to appear dead to everybody (Even Jedi) and then wake up at any moment they wished...

You are joking right....

She was being stripped of the Force by Nihilus, Sion did Nothing.

 

Besides, not like Traya needs it, she's killed 12 assassins on the spot using Dark Transfer, she's proficient in Force Lightning and Drain, Telekinetic Lightsaber strikes and many other force abilities.

 

She'd whoop Leia 1v1.

You do note i said she wins 65:35 right. That is pretty much whooping, Force Lightning is easily defended against. TK lightsabers is not something Leia couldnt handle and still face Traya in saber combat. I talked about most of the force abilities and how Leia has defended against abilities of equal or greater showing then Traya in those area's

Leia is not chop liver people. In terms of saber skill at this time she would be getting close to RotJ Luke's own skills and in terms of Force power its also becoming incredibly close to Luke. They are maybe 10% difference between the 2.

Btw, didn't that Ambassador sneak loads of Assassins onto the Island? So their detectors can't be that great.

 

Besides, the best of the Bladeborn and Traya (Likely Maul too) knew the Sith Trance, allowing them to appear dead to everybody (Even Jedi) and then wake up at any moment they wished...

They didnt have the rebel detection equipment that was hapans sneaking onto a hapan island past other hapans. They knew the waters and the island as far as i am aware. None of these are luxuries your troops will have.