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Why are some people so incompetent in flashpoints?


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The other day, I was doing hammer station (normal) on my merc healer. I started off by asking if everyone has done this before, and everyone said yes. On the first major pull, the sorc in the group cc'd one of the elite droids (only because I asked him too), and the tank immediately attacks the cc'd target, the 2 dps attack separate elites and I'm left with every other mob attacking me. We end up not wiping (because I'm level 21) and I explain to them all not to attack cc'd targets and what the kill order is. First boss comes, and about one minute in, I see the sorc next to the boss hitting him with his light saber (no, he wasn't out of force). The only other major pull (the one near the elevator) comes along, and everyone starts attacking the big droid only and I'm left with all of the other mobs. I almost leave then, but I only had enough time to finish one flashpoint and not enough to start another one, so I stayed. Everything else goes fine until the final boss, where the 2 dps decide to stack up on the tank and the get hit with the boss's sweeping blasters,. The sorc then proceeds to be knocked down to his death. Neither dps attacked the adds, and I had to knock them off each time. We end up killing him, but again, it was only because I was overleveled that I could keep them alive. If anyone has read this far, I applaud you for reading through my rant.

/end rant

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Oddly enough, Hammer Station seems to be the one which shows the inexperience of players the most. 9/10, it's the last boss, or the first fight (the one with the two large droids) which causes inexperienced (or, experienced but not very good) people to drop the ball.
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Oddly enough, Hammer Station seems to be the one which shows the inexperience of players the most. 9/10, it's the last boss, or the first fight (the one with the two large droids) which causes inexperienced (or, experienced but not very good) people to drop the ball.

 

I remember having a conversation about this several months ago, and the consensus explanation for this is that Hammer Station is such a huge skill jump from the only other Flashpoints lowbie characters might've accessed, Esseles/Black Talon.

 

I didn't start doing the low level SM FPs until I was starting my second round of characters, and even though I was experienced with the Level 50 HMs, I found Hammer Station to be a crapshoot in terms of getting through it. It's rated level 15-19, but there is such a power difference between even level 15 and level 16. IIRC, some tanks don't even get their Taunt until level 17.

 

Combine these, if you get some inexperienced players and/or running at the lower end of the level requirement, and it takes a herculean effort to clear it.

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I agree that Hammer Station is definitely a rude awakening for people who may have only ever done Black Talon previously. where you can just take one person and your companions and blow through it without a second thought. It can be easy, but getting into a group full of complete newbies can be messy.
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Hammer Station is the welcome to actually having to use a kill order mindset and not a everyone focus on the tanks mob mindset. It's the crash course of DPS having to know what to CC and when. To start off by killing little mobs and work your way to the big ones that the Tank is slowly killing. It's the training ground for Tanks to begin their basic skill set for holding and agro. Who needs to be shielded and when. How to use that brand new taunt skill. It's the Healers first big push to actually have to learn to heal and conserve/manage there "Force/Energy/Heat/Manna for lack of a better term".

 

It's the big HOLY CRAP WHAT I LEARNED IN WOW DOES NOT WORK HERE!!! time. Some people learn this before they get through MR. Some don't. I still to this day see Juggs and Guardians Force leaping turrets in HM Cad. With time one can only hope that people will learn the required fight placements and kill orders that are unique to each FP and Ops. But it always boils down to one quote that a wise man said a long time ago. "A person is smart. People are dumb as friggen rocks."

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Hammer Station is hard. As a matter of fact it's hard AND confusing. After Esseles/BT, Hammer Station feels like a punch in the face. Most new players in this game are also new to MMO's. They don't know terms like "CC" or "adds" etc... Most DPS players don't know what a tank is; as a matter of fact, even some tanks don't know what a tank is, either.

 

I even believe that Athiss is actually easier than Hammer Station even though it's for level 21 and Hammer Station is for 17 (recommended levels). Also healing in Hammer Station is incredibly hard; especially the last boss even with everyone knowing what they're doing. The fight is long and there are tons of damage going around and keeping everyone alive with your limited healing abilities and your horrible resource management is almost impossible. The first droid boss is also not easy.

 

Oh and the infamous first pull with those 2 big droids... what a pain that is.

 

The best thing is to ask if everyone did this before and then start. But then again, it's not always the solution because especially on my server where people are from tons of different countries, language can be a huge barrier to understand tactics.

 

So enter the place at your own risk and just hope things will go smooth. Sadly that's the "wisest" advice I can give.

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It's funny, I had a similar encounter in HS SM. A DPS JK Sent was jumping into every fight as if he were the tank. The rest of the group asked nicely and then forcefully for him not to do that. As the healer, I eventually warned him, "do that again and you are not getting healed." He did it again, and I did not heal him from that point on. He still did not get the message. Then one pull, he again jumped in before the tank and the rest of us just sat there and watched him die. We kicked him after that.

 

As someone else said, welcome to PuGs. The good news is that in most cases, if you have three good players one playing a class with healing ability (even if not heal specced) and one healer companion among the three you can usually 3-man any SM FP up to the mid to late 30s. Point is that even if you have to kick the tank or the healer, you do not necessarily have to wait for another to fill that role - I once did Colicoid War Game with a tank and two DPS, me being one of the DPS with healing ability (BH merc, pyro specced).

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Hello, I'm new to SWtOR but an old WoW Healer, experienced on MMOs, already did the changes to improve my healing with my Jedi Sage(Like changing bindings for a faster reaction)...

 

I've done Hammer Station twice, both of them my tank died at that pull with the 2 big droids, first one was my fault, I was not expecting such a huge load and started the heavy heal too late, the second, my tank didn't aggro the trasses and they we're attacking everyone at the same time, my DPS didn't CC, everyone was attacking a different mob... it was hard.

 

HS has a hard pull, indeed, its a surprise for who is not expecting it

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Oddly enough, Hammer Station seems to be the one which shows the inexperience of players the most. 9/10, it's the last boss, or the first fight (the one with the two large droids) which causes inexperienced (or, experienced but not very good) people to drop the ball.

 

Hammer Station is the Gnomeregan of SWTOR.

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people being incompetent in these extremely low lvl FPs is hardly a surprise. They have no experience not only with that instance, but with the game itself.

 

I have no problem with new people, I will talk them through and help them learn, what gets me frustrated is when people tell me they know what they're doing when they're not, and when I tell them what they're doing wrong and how to fix it, they keep on making the same mistake (with the exception of new people)

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I have no problem with new people, I will talk them through and help them learn, what gets me frustrated is when people tell me they know what they're doing when they're not, and when I tell them what they're doing wrong and how to fix it, they keep on making the same mistake (with the exception of new people)

 

That's normal I think. 1) people can understand your advice, but still do some basic mistakes that you are not aware they could do since you take those things as automatic as an experienced player. 2) or they just misunderstand you. That's something that can easily happen to new players so they think they know what to do, but in reality they don't. 3) the same as 2), just based on language. Lots of people who play this have have not english as their first langueage so they can misunderstand you. Doesn't necessarily mean they know they don't know what you're saying, they can just think it means something else.

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Misunderstanding is definitely an issue a lot of the time. I was doing the FP with the Droid that "puts you under arrest" and when he catches up to your character it is imprisoned and defeated. We had to go through it a couple of times before the team members understood what each other were talking about. Everyone was like "i understand" then team gets wiped and through a little more discussion, realize not everyone understood.

 

/startrant

Irritating thing was, we had an experienced player on the team that as soon as the team died the second time, said "I'm not wasting my credits dieing here" and quit team. At least one person had said they had never completed the FP before. A couple of defeats isn't that big of a deal. We got the replacement, straightened out the misunderstandings the new guy was having and won the battle the next round. It just really annoyed me because sometimes people need some guidance - how can they learn the tricks if no one takes the time to teach them.

/endrant

Edited by Davionbandit
misspelling
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On more complex mechanism than tank and spank, people can do mistakes until they experience the fight enough. Experienced people can also do mistakes by their own. Also the explanation might be clear for the "teacher" or those knowing the tactic but unclear for the "student."

 

I recall the first time I ran though the last boss of Cademinu, the one with the rockets launches, the only explanation I could get from the others was "follow the tank." Why? Where is he going to go and when? Why am I dying on the sudden? Wipe after wipe I had no more details on what we have to do. They though they did the best, however, even tagging the tank to spot him better. But as a healer it wasn't helpful; I cannot heal and be ready to run at any moment in a direction I don't know. Also as they didn't say we have to go in a edge, I remained more or less in the middle to save time. It eventually frustrated the teachers who left. Then I browsed in a guide who detailed we have to watch the smokes or the burning boosters and run to a safe edge. After one more wipe, we duoed the boss in broken armour.

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I really don't mind players that just haven't learned fights, or need help with explanations or mechanics. Even players that are slow, since a lot might just be younger/older players. What bugs me is when you have a group with 2 DPS in full raid gear, and still hit the enrage on a bonus boss at 50% because they just afk or don't even try.

 

I always ask if everyone knows fights ahead of time, and if everyone says yes I'll power through the instance as fast as I can. If anyone says no, or later we wipe, I try to take a step back and answer any questions or explain mistakes as best as I can. Sometimes people get irritated that I'm "explaining more than I need to", but in the long run it helps players out the best, and improves the overall quality of people queueing, imo. It's not hard to explain that you need to do XXX for reason YYY, and people will understand it so much better than if you just try and tell them "do this".

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hi all,

 

I might be one of those average players, not so bad, not so good, that like to do FP runs. As a newby in a FP, I have had many good experiences and a few bad ones.

 

A tip for the newbies: tell that you are new to that particular FP, or that it's your first time as tank / healer / DPS in said FP. Almost everybody is OK with this.

 

For the "teachers / helpers": just wanted to post to say thanks to the many people that help through this process and have the patience to do so even in a funny way! Thanks a lot! Some guys are just brilliant and by doing this are improving the fun-experience of playing swtor.

 

For the "other people", not so patient, just this: if we all invest (not lose) 5 minutes in a FP teaching the "goodwilling noobs", we all will spare lots of minutes in that run and in future FP runs.

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I don't have a problem with new players entering a Flashpoint that they have never done. The biggest thing I have a problem with is that some of these new players who have never done them can't grasp the concept of CCing, DPSing the same target. purging/cleansing and other aspects of game-play. When that happens I am done with them.
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I feel the pain. Today i did a lvl 50 hm Directive 7 and both the DPS hadn't done it before. Which is fine. When i asked it would have been nice if they had said they had not but whatever, the tank was lvl 55 and i was heal on my operative and both me and the tank have done it plenty of time before. So we explain the fights before hand, and while they go okay the sorcerer dps does nothing but use force storm....every single pull....even on bosses. He was at least part way up the lightning tree as i saw he had the force effusion and chain lightning proc, but all he used was force storm....Nothing Else. I asked him why and he didn't respond. After getting past the the second boss i asked him how he was speced and he said hybrid lightning/madness. Since i leveled a sorc in a similar hybrid i tried to help him with a rotation, but he refused and just kept using force storm. So once we got to the final boss and he just stood under the claw more than once instead of moving i just stopped healing him and dpsed and healed at the same time and rezed him at the end of the fight. I know that i can cc the claw when it comes down but i dunno if healing someone who wont move out of a big circle that is damaging you is worth healing especially since all he used was force storm.
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