This is my guess as well, also, take into account however you may use Takedown every time it procs now (since your poison damage is reduced so much from Lethal shot, and the proc'ed takedown costs 3 less energy now, so not as much of an energy issue to use it.) so that could increase your damage as well, and if you skipped using SoS at all in the past, you may use that more. So basically I agree it'll probably be more like 300-500 dps drop, but we may need to slightly alter our rotations to do it. They are going under the belief that they will stay with the same rotation. (I am not).

You are correct that the rotation will change. Takedown and series of shots will now see increased usage. The issue is that using them is ALSO a DPS loss. It's a little less obvious to calculate the loss of the rotation change since we can't appropriately mirror the new rotation on live. But it will be a serious loss because in addition to core abilities being nerfed, we are also being pushed into a lower dps rotation. But you can't really say outright the different rotation will negate some of the calculated loss. No the calculated 8-9% loss with current rotation is not 100% accurate. But we don't know how significant a loss the new rotation is either so it's difficult to find the middle ground. (Another reason this really should have been put on PTS)

However the new rotation poses other oddities. energy management will be smoother with takedown cost reduction accounting for the weakening blast increase and series of shots being energy efficient. This is also removing some of the difficulty factor of the rotation and reducing the reward for accurately being aggressive with lethal shot use. Which also removes our ability to squeeze out a bit more damage to meet an important check, at the expense of energy. Moving farther away from that already puzzling title of Quasi-sustained.

So the nerfs are more than just a simple dps reduction. The skill requirement is coming down and the reward for playing at a high skill level coming down with it.

It seems that more than a half of posters here (especially the most vocal ones that scream that Viru is dead) don't even understand HOW CULL WORKS.

 

The 25% reduction affects ONLY WHITE weapon damage of Cull. DoT damage stays the same! Cull makes the DoTs do damage but they are separate abilities! Look at any parse, search for Cull line and THAT will be 25% weaker. Top. 2 and 3 damage cobtributors stay literally the same...

 

Jesus, overreacting so hard. Viru clearly is overperforming. These changes will only make it more challenging which is a good thing. 2-Cull rotation should have been forgotten long ago anyway.

How in any way shape or form is virulence overperforming!?

How in any way shape or form is virulence overperforming!?

Do you really not see?

Check http://parsely.io/parser/stats - virulence is always on top or in top5. Check steady 2.5mil parses - plenty of virulence snipers on first page. But according to Bioware they are quasi-sustained (I would call them just sustain) and shouldn't be on top.

Ask yourself a question - is there a fight where you don't want a virulence sniper? You can clear most of the content with 3-4 snipers and you can't do it with 3-4 of most other classes.

To me nerfs seem reasonable but might need adjustments, of course. Leaving them in the current state is definitely not a good choice.

1 1 - 10,754 +/- 322 +7.64% Lethality Operative Ruffian Scoundrel

2 2 - 10,467 +/- 161 +4.77% Virulence Sniper Dirty Fighting Gunslinger

3 3 - 10,441 +/- 270 +4.51% Engineering Sniper Saboteur Gunslinger

4 4 - 10,432 +/- 414 +4.42% Innovative Ordnance Mercenary Assault Specialist Commando

5 5 - 10,336 +/- 284 +3.46% Annihilation Marauder Watchman Sentinel

6 6 - 10,157 +/- 526 +1.67% Concealment Operative Scrapper Scoundrel

7 7 - 10,157 +/- 582 +1.67% Deception Assassin Infiltration Shadow

8 8 - 10,150 +/- 299 +1.6% Carnage Marauder Combat Sentinel

9 9 - 10,054 +/- 516 +0.64% Arsenal Mercenary Gunnery Commando

10 10 - 10,027 +/- 372 +0.36% Vengeance Juggernaut Vigilance Guardian

11 15 4 9,857 +/- 488 -1.34% Rage Juggernaut Focus Guardian

12 8 4 9,828 +/- 351 -1.63% Fury Marauder Concentration Sentinel

13 12 1 9,679 +/- 505 -3.12% Advanced Prototype Powertech Tactics Vanguard

14 13 1 9,640 +/- 346 -3.51% Hatred Assassin Serenity Shadow

15 14 1 9,556 +/- 383 -4.35% Pyrotech Powertech Plasmatech Vanguard

16 16 - 9,520 +/- 268 -4.71% Madness Sorcerer Balance Sage

17 17 - 9,448 +/- 461 -5.43% Marksmanship Sniper Sharpshooter Gunslinger

18 18 - 9,327 +/- 304 -6.64% Lightning Sorcerer Telekinetics Sage

Melee Sustained Damage Dealers (up to +5% of target DPS)

Annihilation Marauder / Watchman Sentinel

Hatred Assassin / Serenity Shadow

Lethality Operative / Ruffian Scoundrel

Pyrotech Powertech / Plasmatech Vanguard

Vengeance Juggernaut / Vigilance Guardian

Melee Quasi-Burst Damage Dealer (up to +2.5% of target DPS)

Fury Marauder / Concentration Sentinel

Melee Burst/Ranged Sustained Damage Dealers (at the target DPS)

Advanced Prototype Powertech / Tactics Vanguard

Carnage Marauder / Combat Sentinel

Concealment Operative / Scrapper Scoundrel

Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow

Engineering Sniper / Saboteur Gunslinger

Innovative Ordnance Mercenary / Assault Specialist Commando

Madness Sorcerer / Balance Sage

Rage Juggernaut / Focus Guardian

Ranged Quasi-Sustained Damage Dealer (down to -2.5% of target DPS)

Virulence Sniper / Dirty Fighting Gunslinger

Ranged Burst Damage Dealers (down to -5% of target DPS)

Arsenal Mercenary / Gunnery Command

Lightning Sorcerer / Telekinetics Sage

Marksmanship Sniper / Sharpshooter Gunslinger

u see the difrence? its overperforming by alot.

in general alot of range specs overperforming and Melee underperforming.

Virulence Sniper Dirty Fighting Gunslinger is op

Engineering Sniper Saboteur Gunslinger is op

Innovative Ordnance Mercenary Assault Specialist Commando is op

Arsenal Mercenary Gunnery Commando is op

Vengeance Juggernaut Vigilance Guardian is underperforming

Fury Marauder Concentration Sentinel is underperforming

Hatred Assassin Serenity Shadow is underperforming

Pyrotech Powertech Plasmatech Vanguard is underperforming

if thay realy meen it and thay balance this out we are going to have a mutch better game after that.

in general alot of range specs overperforming and Melee underperforming.

Virulence Sniper Dirty Fighting Gunslinger is op

Engineering Sniper Saboteur Gunslinger is op

Innovative Ordnance Mercenary Assault Specialist Commando is op

Arsenal Mercenary Gunnery Commando is op

Vengeance Juggernaut Vigilance Guardian is underperforming

Fury Marauder Concentration Sentinel is underperforming

Hatred Assassin Serenity Shadow is underperforming

Pyrotech Powertech Plasmatech Vanguard is underperforming

 

if thay realy meen it and thay balance this out we are going to have a mutch better game after that.

Are these numbers from a boss fight or just on dummies? Melee should always parse under range in boss fights because they can't dps from 30m out. Dot specs should always parse above non-dot specs because they can deal damage while kiting/moving for different phases of the fight ect. HOWEVER if you rob dirty fighting of it's main burst ability it can't do **** in PvP; our dots can be cleansed and slow sustained damage can be healed through. You can't kill enemy teams w/o killing healers and you can't kill healers w/o well timed stun/burst.

If they want to nerf our damage nerf the dot damage a bit, don't rape our main burst ability.

our dots can be cleansed

If you mean by DCDs, then it's just a handful of classes that have even some way at all of doing it and only sin has a low cd on it.

Excuse me?

 

If you mean by DCDs, then it's just a handful of classes that have even some way at all of doing it and only sin has a low cd on it.

No, s/he means by cleanses, you know, that thing that all heal-capable classes have, and whose CD is 12sec.

No, s/he means by cleanses, you know, that thing that all heal-capable classes have, and whose CD is 12sec.

Cleanses which have been disabled vs PLAYER DOTS for years now?

Those cleanses?

Cleanses which have been disabled vs PLAYER DOTS for years now?

 

Those cleanses?

Wait, really? I could have sworn I cleansed some guy's DoTs on me in that Voidstar match the other day.

Oh well, I guess I was just being an idiot then. Never mind.

Do you really not see?

 

Check http://parsely.io/parser/stats - virulence is always on top or in top5. Check steady 2.5mil parses - plenty of virulence snipers on first page. But according to Bioware they are quasi-sustained (I would call them just sustain) and shouldn't be on top.

 

Ask yourself a question - is there a fight where you don't want a virulence sniper? You can clear most of the content with 3-4 snipers and you can't do it with 3-4 of most other classes.

 

To me nerfs seem reasonable but might need adjustments, of course. Leaving them in the current state is definitely not a good choice.

Although I don't disagree that virulence is a bit op, simply looking at dummy parses is wrong because of how much roll is used and it isn't completely transferable to ops bosses.

Although I don't disagree that virulence is a bit op, simply looking at dummy parses is wrong because of how much roll is used and it isn't completely transferable to ops bosses.

Virulence performs well single target and could stand to come down 3 or 4 percent. But you are absolutely right. two problems, 1 the devs are actively aiming lower than they should with a bogus quasi sustained classification and 2 dummy damage (on single target) is not indicative of raid damage due to abuse of roll and the fact that a lot of classes are able to make use of things like reflect, pyro shield, cloak of pain, close and personal etc that can be used to add damage above what your rotation puts out.

Virulence typically shines when you can AOE or multidot, and in those types of fights yes Virulence is going to be well represented in the top.and in fairness, virulence won't get hit as hard in those types of fights because dot damage and aoe potential are not being touched.

But for a class that was already a liability in terms of snap damage to priority adds, losing even more of an already subpar aspect of the class is pretty lame.

Melee Sustained Damage Dealers (up to +5% of target DPS)

Annihilation Marauder / Watchman Sentinel

Hatred Assassin / Serenity Shadow

Lethality Operative / Ruffian Scoundrel

Pyrotech Powertech / Plasmatech Vanguard

Vengeance Juggernaut / Vigilance Guardian

 

Melee Quasi-Burst Damage Dealer (up to +2.5% of target DPS)

Fury Marauder / Concentration Sentinel

 

Melee Burst/Ranged Sustained Damage Dealers (at the target DPS)

Advanced Prototype Powertech / Tactics Vanguard

Carnage Marauder / Combat Sentinel

Concealment Operative / Scrapper Scoundrel

Deception Assassin / Infiltration Shadow

Engineering Sniper / Saboteur Gunslinger

Innovative Ordnance Mercenary / Assault Specialist Commando

Madness Sorcerer / Balance Sage

Rage Juggernaut / Focus Guardian

 

Ranged Quasi-Sustained Damage Dealer (down to -2.5% of target DPS)

Virulence Sniper / Dirty Fighting Gunslinger

 

Ranged Burst Damage Dealers (down to -5% of target DPS)

Arsenal Mercenary / Gunnery Command

Lightning Sorcerer / Telekinetics Sage

Marksmanship Sniper / Sharpshooter Gunslinger

 

u see the difrence? its overperforming by alot.

Sorry, but this list is a giant pile of garbage. Yes, I know it's from BioWare and it makes it even worse!

BioWare doesn't separate true melee specs (4m) from the mid-range specs (10m).

It's sad to say, but the existence of a single Flame Fist doesn't make Pyrotechs a melee class.

BioWare doesn't even consider the length of the DoTs

Whereas the DoTs of a Virulence spec last for 24s DoTs, the Annihilation DoTs deal their full damage within 6~9s instead. So which ones are less bursty or less likely to achieve their max. possible potential?

BioWare doesn't even care about the damage of the DoTs or their relevance

Hatred Assassins f.e. are more about Assassinate, Leeching Strike, Death Fields and a 6s Eradicate.

BioWare doesn't check whether the 'sustained' classes have burst-like skills as well

F.e. an Explosive Probe (Engineering) deals ~18.5k damage on average. And if the following Series of Shots triggers 4x Cluster Bonbs and applies a stackable 6s Electified Railgun DoT, it's considered a 'sustained' spec. But if Virulence does the same with Cull triggering 4x DoTs, the spec is called 'quasi-sustained'.

BioWare doesn't check whether certain classes really lose more DPS than others

Although there might be some PvE bosses that aren't beneficial for melee specs, there are also PvE fights that make it harder for ranged classes.. and numerous of fights where range or burst doesn't even matter.

Unlike melees f.e., ranged classes tend to rely on activated or channeled abilites. Being forced to move makes it impossible to use them In case of a Marksman Sniper f.e. that's Ambush, Penetrating Blasts and Snipe.... so almost any skill.

BioWare don't even care about other DPS losses due to boss mechanics or general gameplay

In a majority of fights, there are some - let's call them 'side tasks'. It means a specific player must activate a button, must place an AoE somewhere, must enter a specific area, must not be too close, must not be healed, etc. And these effects all have a different impact on certain classes.

Take Ravagers: Someone must carry the 'whisky', another player must call a repair robot or activate a cooling system to cancel a burn DoT. Some classes are better suited than others. Fighting Torque f.e. grant specs with a DoT spread a higher damage output simply because there are enough damageable targets in proximity, but a class with a rotational auto-aimed AoE might have a hard time not to damage the repair bot.

Likewise, if a spec can use a DCD to avoid all the damage of a Rain of Bombs special (Master/Blaster) or has a better speed boost to get out of it, might perform better than other classes.

But if a few disadvantagea are enough to receive a permanent inbalance, we might actually end up buffing/nerfing every class.

So let's test this sort of reasoning:

Should a healer that has a lower HPS score in a few fights that forces his teammates to be spreaded across the field receive a permanent 5% HPS boost? Should the healer spec that relies more on HoTs receive another 5% bonus just in case it ends up disadvantageous somewhere? Should a class with a higher energy reserve receive a permanent damage nerf? Should every spec with a Reflect receive a permanent 5% DPS nerf? Should stealth classes receive a permanent 5% netf? Should Juggs & Maros receive a 5% damage nerf because they don't have the same energy management issues after they have been revived?................ it's endless!

But most importantly: Should a player switch to a sustained melee spec in 90% of the fights where it isn't a drawback, because this spec received a permanent advantage for the 10% of the cases where it actually matters?

IMO, it's absolutely ridiculous to try to achieve balance by enforcing an additional inbuild inbalance.

And it's unbelievable that there are game designers who would actually consider this for more than a miillisecond. There are plenty of options to address these issues in a more elaborated way.... and they are already in this game. That's why I would start with an equal max. DPS score and would then give every spec the right tools to either ignore, accept or handle any divercity/flavor-based inbalances added to their class.

How in any way shape or form is virulence overperforming!?

Going to write this off to someone who either A) is trolling, or B) doesn't know a thing about the spec......

Sorry, but this list is a giant pile of garbage. Yes, I know it's from BioWare and it makes it even worse!

 

BioWare doesn't separate true melee specs (4m) from the mid-range specs (10m).

It's sad to say, but the existence of a single Flame Fist doesn't make Pyrotechs a melee class.

 

BioWare doesn't even consider the length of the DoTs

Whereas the DoTs of a Virulence spec last for 24s DoTs, the Annihilation DoTs deal their full damage within 6~9s instead. So which ones are less bursty or less likely to achieve their max. possible potential?

 

BioWare doesn't even care about the damage of the DoTs or their relevance

Hatred Assassins f.e. are more about Assassinate, Leeching Strike, Death Fields and a 6s Eradicate.

 

BioWare doesn't check whether the 'sustained' classes have burst-like skills as well

F.e. an Explosive Probe (Engineering) deals ~18.5k damage on average. And if the following Series of Shots triggers Cluster Bonbs and applies a stackable 6s Electified Railgun DoT, it's considered a 'sustained' spec. But if Virulence does the same with Cull triggering 4x DoTs, the spec is called 'quasi-sustained'.

 

BioWare doesn't check whether certain classes really lose more DPS than others

Although there might be some PvE bosses that aren't beneficial for melee specs, there are also PvE fights that make it harder for ranged classes.. and for the numerous of fights where range or burst doesn't even matter,

 

Unlike melees f.e., ranged classes tend to rely on activated or channeled abilites. Being forced to move makes it impossible to use them In case of a Marksman Sniper f.e. that's Ambush, Penetrating Blasts and Snipe.... so almost any skill.

 

BioWare don't even care about other DPS losses due to boss mechanics or general gameplay

In a majority of fights, there are some - let's call them 'side tasks'. It means a specific player must activate a button, must place an AoE somewhere, must enter a specific area, must not be too close, must not be healed, etc. And these effects all have a different impact on certain classes.

 

Take Ravagers: Someone must carry the 'whisky', another player must call a repair robot or activate a cooling system to cancel a burn DoT. Some classes are better suited than others. Fighting Torque f.e. grant specs with a DoT spread a higher damage output simply because there are enough damageable targets in proximity, but a class with a rotational auto-aimed AoE might have a hard time not to damage the repair bot.

 

Likewise, if a spec can use a DCD to avoid all the damage of a Rain of Bombs special (Master/Blaster) or has a better speed boost to get out of it, might perform better than other classes.

 

But if a few disadvantagea are enough to receive a permanent inbalance, we might actually end up buffing/nerfing every class.

 

So let's test this sort of reasoning:

Should a healer that has a lower HPS score in a few fights that forces his teammates to be spreaded across the field receive a permanent 5% HPS boost? Should the healer spec that relies more on HoTs receive another 5% bonus just in case it ends up disadvantageous somewhere? Should a class with a higher energy reserve receive a permanent damage nerf? Should every spec with a Reflect receive a permanent 5% DPS nerf? Should stealth classes receive a permanent 5% netf? Should Juggs & Maros receive a 5% damage nerf because they don't have the same energy management issues after they have been revived?................ it's endless!

 

But most importantly: Should a player switch to a sustained melee spec in 90% of the fights where it isn't a drawback, because this spec received a permanent advantage for the 10% of the cases where it actually matters?

 

IMO, it's absolutely ridiculous to try to achieve balance by enforcing an additional inbuild inbalance.

And it's unbelievable that there are game designers who would actually consider this for more than a miillisecond. There are plenty of options to address these issues in a more elaborated way.... and they are already in this game. That's why I would start with an equal max. DPS score and would then give every spec the right tools to either ignore, accept or handle any divercity/flavor-based inbalances added to their class.

this is it. The absolute truth. spot on. you cant get balance by making imbalance.

in general alot of range specs overperforming and Melee underperforming.

Virulence Sniper Dirty Fighting Gunslinger is op

Engineering Sniper Saboteur Gunslinger is op

Innovative Ordnance Mercenary Assault Specialist Commando is op

Arsenal Mercenary Gunnery Commando is op

Vengeance Juggernaut Vigilance Guardian is underperforming

Fury Marauder Concentration Sentinel is underperforming

Hatred Assassin Serenity Shadow is underperforming

Pyrotech Powertech Plasmatech Vanguard is underperforming

 

if thay realy meen it and thay balance this out we are going to have a mutch better game after that.

Vengeance Juggernauts and Fury Marauders are not underperforming in PVP, not by a long shot. And Vengeance isn't underperfoming in PVE, it's DPS is appropriate and most Juggs feel their DPS is fine.

Lightning Sorcs and MM snipers are underperforming and should be on the top of the underperfoming list.

Pyro PT and Hatred Assassins are getting buffed in 5.3.

Why is there such hate towards these nerfs? As far as I'm concerned the direction of these nerfs is not to make specs unviable or anything like that. It is however meant to bring specs more in line to where they should be; and it appears a goal is to bring dps output across the board down.

Now; lets look at these two areas. If players have any worries about the appeal of running virulence I believe they are mostly generated through comparisons of virulence to specs like carnage and lethality. Note that both carnage and lethality are not being touched. They should not be reference points because only the specs being changed are the specs which we know the devs are bringing into the developer intended place. Suddenly if you compare virulence (as a ranged dot spec) to 5.3 pyro or 5.3 hatred (both being melee dot specs) it doesn't look so bad. Note we are awaiting more changes still; we still don't know how the other 2 ranged dot specs are ending up in 5.3. The issue here isn't spec viability of virulence, it is more so the lack of global changes. Overperforming specs are being nerfed and those which are overperforming and not being nerfed are going to create the problems. I'd honestly rather lobby for marauder output nerfs along with these changes so that the optimal comp isn't going to be something stupid like 3 maras + flex option. The devs are doing changes in 2 (or more?) parts; we are going to go through some of the most broken metas as a result but I believe balancing around the end goals, not the step-wise broken metas is what should be prioritised.

Now if you are still unhappy despite this reasoning, you are likely unhappy about where the balance benchmark is for 5.3 across the specs. This is not a spec specific issue. This change serves to increase challenge of content (which right now lets face it is the biggest joke in the history of this game; content rehashed for a 2nd time and this time you get to do it a whole gear tier above). It also raises ttk in PvP but this honestly is an issue heavily related to defensive cooldown capacity anyway and we already know that they plan to do output changes before utility changes.

And just a quick response to those asking how people are coming to numbers. I simply applied the effect of all the changes to my current best virulence parse which brought me from 10.7k down to around 9.8k. This is the most extreme result though as I did not factor in the change in rotation which will arise and my current rotation will not be ideal in 5.3; therefore the nerf is slightly smaller than the numbers you get when applying to current parses.

Why is there such hate towards these nerfs? As far as I'm concerned the direction of these nerfs is not to make specs unviable or anything like that. It is however meant to bring specs more in line to where they should be; and it appears a goal is to bring dps output across the board down.

 

Now; lets look at these two areas. If players have any worries about the appeal of running virulence I believe they are mostly generated through comparisons of virulence to specs like carnage and lethality. Note that both carnage and lethality are not being touched. They should not be reference points because only the specs being changed are the specs which we know the devs are bringing into the developer intended place. Suddenly if you compare virulence (as a ranged dot spec) to 5.3 pyro or 5.3 hatred (both being melee dot specs) it doesn't look so bad. Note we are awaiting more changes still; we still don't know how the other 2 ranged dot specs are ending up in 5.3. The issue here isn't spec viability of virulence, it is more so the lack of global changes. Overperforming specs are being nerfed and those which are overperforming and not being nerfed are going to create the problems. I'd honestly rather lobby for marauder output nerfs along with these changes so that the optimal comp isn't going to be something stupid like 3 maras + flex option. The devs are doing changes in 2 (or more?) parts; we are going to go through some of the most broken metas as a result but I believe balancing around the end goals, not the step-wise broken metas is what should be prioritised.

 

Now if you are still unhappy despite this reasoning, you are likely unhappy about where the balance benchmark is for 5.3 across the specs. This is not a spec specific issue. This change serves to increase challenge of content (which right now lets face it is the biggest joke in the history of this game; content rehashed for a 2nd time and this time you get to do it a whole gear tier above). It also raises ttk in PvP but this honestly is an issue heavily related to defensive cooldown capacity anyway and we already know that they plan to do output changes before utility changes.

 

And just a quick response to those asking how people are coming to numbers. I simply applied the effect of all the changes to my current best virulence parse which brought me from 10.7k down to around 9.8k. This is the most extreme result though as I did not factor in the change in rotation which will arise and my current rotation will not be ideal in 5.3; therefore the nerf is slightly smaller than the numbers you get when applying to current parses.

You are suggesting nerfs for classes that aren't over performing. So if BW nerfs everyone "across the board", than the changes are relative because everyone has been chopped down, and so "class balance" maintains the status quo just with small numbers for everyone.

You should nerf the classes that are over performing, buff the classes that are underperforming and leave thats that are performing to expectation alone.

Mercs and Snipers are overperforming in 5.0, that's no big secret, and over performing to rediculous levels. It isn't only about DPS numbers. It's about ranged classes that dominate entirely and that run rumpshod over large swaths of characters of other classes. I'm not saying that everyone else sucks, or that other classes can't do well, that's clearly not the case.

Snipers a pure DPS class in name only. You suggest nerfing Marauders too? Snipers have self heals, marauders don't, both classes have great DCDs, snipers have twice as many as Marauders do. Snipers have rediculous control over Melee, granted Vurulence is not the worst offender in that regard, Engineering is, but even Vuru can keep melee at bay very well. Comparing Snipers and Mercs with Marauders and Assassins make no sence, they are nothing alike, they do not encounter the same sorts of difficulties.

Mercs are skillless class, but Sniper's aren't, it does take a good amount of skill to perform optimally, but so does Marauders. Snipers have much more on Marauders and are not comprobable to each other. The ranged aspect makes a huge difference in many ways, both in PVP and progression raiding.

I really do feel bad about the Sniper nerf, but not because I think it's undeserved. because it so clearly is, what I don't agree with is the chopping down of the DPS of a pure DPS class [kinda], and even though they'll be okay, Snipers should have the strongest DPS among ranged DPS imo. What they should have done is brought them back into the actual pure DPS class mold again, like Marauders. Marauders as a pure DPS class should have the highest DPS of the melee classes. I have always felt that way about the two classes, and I always will feel that way. The problem with Snipers is unlike Marauders, they stopped functioning like a pure DPS class and that's why they are getting nerfed. They should, IMO, left the DPS alone for Snipers, but brought them back into conformity with their melee breathern. Pure DPS classes should be glass cannons, snipers are titanium cannons.

What I find so alarming is that up until 2 weeks ago, time after time you were seeing Marauders being used as the premiere example of a good balanced class in 5.0 Era. But not all of a sudden when the nerfs start coming in, and DPS is being cut on ranged, now we start seeing posts about how melee doesn't really have less uptime than ranged, and they don't tend to take more damage than ranged, and now we're seeing all of a sudden "they should nerf Marauders too".

In your own words " I'd honestly rather lobby for marauder output nerfs along with these changes so that the optimal comp isn't going to be something stupid like 3 maras + flex option".

Why? All of a sudden Marauders are in the same cateogory as Mercs and Snipers? Everyone has a missed this for the last 8 months and is just realizing it now? 3 Maras that's beyond the pale, but when it was three snipers that was fine right? That wasn't twice as bad as 3 maras ever could be. It's fine is snipers can prevent large groups of melee from moving by cross plasma probe circles side by side so even if they got out of one they walked right into another, with 100% uptime, totally splammable. Was fine to get attacked from 35' feet away so far you it's out of Force Leap ranged, but not that that even matters because you can't leap to snipers anyways. Was perfectly fine that snipers such a big CC kit all the while, they themselves were immune. That's all fine, but 3 maras, like that could possibly worse. This is the worst meta for OP classes ever.

Marauders are on the on target DPS [ we'll some of the specs are at any rate, one being Carnage' cateogory BW released, so why should they be nerfed? They are performing to expectation.

You further state " If players have any worries about the appeal of running virulence I believe they are mostly generated through comparisons of virulence to specs like carnage and lethality. Note that both carnage and lethality are not being touched. " Carnage is not a dot spec, you reference all these DoT specs and than you throw Carnage into that mix when it's not even a DoT spec. Virulence, Lethality, Annihilation, Hatred, Madness, those are dot specs,so why bring Carnage into it?

It strikes me, not that you really think Marauders are over performing, I think these kinds of posts that are cropping up "all of a sudden" are more about the realization that mercs and snipers are not going to be "top dog" anymore, you just don't like the idea of Marauders having better DPS than Snipers, which they should have had all along as mDPS classes should in compatison to ranged [of proper distinctions of course, not over all, spec to spec].

Marauder DPS will never be good enough in PVP to allow them to be TOP dog FOTM, for one simple reason. Unlike Snipers, they don't have self heals, and that don't have tank like defenses, and a CC kit that could choke a horse. Can they put up great numbers? Absolutely they can. Are the squishy? Not when they have DCDs in effect. But you put a Mara in a WZ on a team that does not have a healer, if you say an average length WZ is 6 minutes [im just ballparking here], the Marauder will spend over 5 of those 6 miniutes, with an out active DCD do to cooldowns. So you take that one step further, that means, for 5 of those 6 minutes, they have no defenses, and cannot have 1 point of damage sustained healed, all the while fighting classes all of whom to one degree or another DO have self heals.

I don't need anyone to tell me how Marauder plays in PVP, or in NiM raiding. They are far from weak, they are far from under performing, they are in an excellent place more or less, but over performing? New FOTM? Not a chance in hell.

Take it like a man and show some grace. You should be advocating for pure DPS classes, which I have always done prior to 5.0. I made no distinction because Snipers were in the same boat with us. You shouldn't have self heals. You shouldn't have tank like defenses, you shouldn't be so mobile. The lack of those things, isn't a downfalling, it's respectable. When you excell people take note, because they know you have no heals, they know you're breakable, and personally, that's my favorite part. I love not having self heals.

Snipers should be more like Marauders again. It's what made both of the classes so special. You should be with us again. That's not me wanting to bring you down, i hope the DPS nerf for you isn't bad, you deserve to have high DPS if your pure DPS. Snipers were a lot more respectable when they didn't break the mold.

*snip*

So... if you'll pay attention you've noticed that I'm primarily talking about 5.3 balance. I've even referenced that BW has indicated they will be doing output balance in 5.3 and utility changes later on. You've listed a bunch of examples where mara's get shafted by utilities; you've made cases such as sniper self heals, merc defensives, slows roots, plasma probe etc. I'm trying to keep any posts I make focused and relevant rather than rants about whatever I feel like.

I am not saying mara's will suddenly start overperforming. They have been overperforming; and if you disagree then I honestly lose some credibility for you. My original post was very much PvE focused but you responded to it with PvP and PvE aspects so I'll humour you with both. Notice how most of the best team ranked teams run a marauder dps; they are the sturdiest melee, they bring the inherent benefits of a melee (short cd interrupt, no cast reliance hence you don't get gimped by pillar hump acid strats), they are the highest single target pressure melee spec and they bring extremely powerful hardswap potential with an aoe mez and high frequency burst windows. In PvE marauders are pretty much the gods of cleave because the only specs which cleave better than them have terrible sustained. In PvE marauders bring powerful raid utility through bloodthirst and pred and they have some of the highest sustained damage output and burst all in one spec (you asked me why bring carnage into it, this is why, go to any parsely fight leaderboard and notice the presence of carnage, it is so powerful it has made annihilation almost pointless). They are not going to start overperforming, they are in the exact same boat as snipers and mercs. Well rather; in the context of 5.3 they are in the same boat since 5.3 is output focused changes. In regards to changes to class mechanics (ie. defensives, rotation changes etc) sure I'd say you're justified in saying mercs and snipers need changes.

If you know me you'd know I've never been an advocate for a skewed meta. I never said a 3 sniper or a 3 merc meta was good. What I am saying right now (as I'll point out again my post was heavily PvE focused since PvE is the more relevant meta for this spec) is that the nightmare raiding dps meta is centered almost entirely around mercs, snipers, and marauders yet marauders are not being nerfed. Therefore the new nightmare meta will be centered around marauders and you'll only put anything else in if your marauder goon squad needs some sort of support.

"I don't need anyone to tell me how Marauder plays in PVP, or in NiM raiding."

"You should be advocating for pure DPS classes, which I have always done prior to 5.0."

"You should be with us again."

I've chosen to highlight these three quotes of yours because it shows a high level of immaturity. I'll address all three.

1. Are you a nightmare clearing marauder? I am and I raid with a player who is considered by most to be the best PvE marauder. I honestly don't think you do any proper meta PvP (ie. team ranked) all of your complaints are very typical of regs or 4 dps solo ranked arenas. You honestly need to be open minded if you want to discuss.

2. This is just terrible design; pure dps classes shouldn't do more dps. They have the advantage dps-wise because they have more flexibility with how they deal dps since they can pick between 3 specs.

3. "You" and "us" I play a marauder, friend. I play everything actually. I have all 8 advanced classes at GC 300, I'm over 3 quarters of the way to having all 14 gear sets BiS. I'm not advocating for any class, i'm advocating for balance as a whole.

It also raises ttk in PvP.

This is an understatement. These changes are going to totally break Virulence for pvp to the point of barely being viable for regs. If the the goal was to lower sustained output, which it should be, there are better ways to do it.

WB-buffed Cull is the only heavy hitter Virulence has. Take that away and its 100% fluff damage. Unless you are putting out extreme aoe pressure, which Virulence does not currently, that is worthless in pvp.

You are suggesting nerfs for classes that aren't over performing. snip

 

 

Snipers a pure DPS class in name only.

 

snip

show us your sniper tank or healer then. snipers are a pure dps class. all 3 specs are dps. That is the definition of pure dps.

It's going to be a real wake up call to lots of DPS once alll specs are balanced when they have to actually do good to clear a boss. The fact that people still fail DPS checks with full 248 gear and Overperformong classes just speaks volumes to the quality of players have to deal with these days. Maybe this will be a reality check for them.

Might be a reality check for bw when those subscribers leave the game. They have such an awesome track record with retaining subs in the last year.

Snipers a pure DPS class in name only. You suggest nerfing Marauders too? Snipers have self heals, marauders don't

Yes, in anni spec, they do......

both classes have great DCDs, snipers have twice as many as Marauders do.

No.... they don't, unless you're counting IP, which is on a 3 min CD......

Snipers have rediculous control over Melee, granted Vurulence is not the worst offender in that regard, Engineering is, but even Vuru can keep melee at bay very well. Comparing Snipers and Mercs with Marauders and Assassins make no sence, they are nothing alike, they do not encounter the same sorts of difficulties.

You have 3 ways to gap close on a mara...... smh

Mercs are skillless class, but Sniper's aren't, it does take a good amount of skill to perform optimally, but so does Marauders. Snipers have much more on Marauders and are not comprobable to each other. The ranged aspect makes a huge difference in many ways, both in PVP and progression raiding.

Only one of the specs on merc (Arsenal) is brainless, the other is one of the more demanding specs in the game......

What I find so alarming is that up until 2 weeks ago, time after time you were seeing Marauders being used as the premiere example of a good balanced class in 5.0 Era. But not all of a sudden when the nerfs start coming in, and DPS is being cut on ranged, now we start seeing posts about how melee doesn't really have less uptime than ranged, and they don't tend to take more damage than ranged, and now we're seeing all of a sudden "they should nerf Marauders too".

No one, if being realistic about the current state of the game, is calling for a Mara nerf. The majority of what you see on the forums are the L2P and FOTM crowd overreacting, plain and simple.

Why? All of a sudden Marauders are in the same cateogory as Mercs and Snipers?

They aren't, according to bioware's own words on the subject......