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Beaucore

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Bioware removed mine and several other post about the issue.

 

I had a short discussion with this guy in our vent channel. Since bioware has removed threads I'm not going to bother looking for the post he claims bioware said they weren't going to do anything because he didn't break any laws.

 

Rest assured bioware, Fraud is illegal. This guy told me he was someone that he is not so that he could get me to perform a service for him that I would not otherwise have done. (he didn't get our bank or even come close). That's fraud. It's illegal in all 50 states. End of story. Of course it's illegal. I suspect the only reason bioware isn't willing to turn his name over to authorites is because bioware is a bit of a fan of commintting fraud against their customers also. Remember 1.2 rwz... lies to get your money. Lying to get your money IS illegal. But it's the kind of crime bioware can get behind.

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I 'm pretty sure I found out why Electronic Arts Inc. doesn't do anything about this guy.

 

End User Access and License Agreement states

"You expressly acknowledge that all characters created and all objects or attributes acquired and developed during play are an integral part of the Game and strictly remain the property of EA and/or its licensors. You further acknowledge that the Software contains, without limitation, the following: (a) graphics, sound effects, music, visual animations and text (hereafter referred to as "Content") to which you have no property rights and no intellectual property rights; and (b) other content, including contributions by other users of the Game."

 

Definition of Fraud

A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.

 

The guy isn't breaking any laws because we don't own anything in the game it's all property of Electronic Arts Inc. There are no rules or terms about defrauding other players. Only defrauding the company. Now if this guy was utilizing methods to steal from EA (like fabricating items using third party software) then he would have legal action brought against him depending on where he resides.

 

It's unfortunate that he gets away with this but if you look at this as a life lesson be glad it happened to you in game and not in real life. Be careful about who you trust and always verify information. If you didn't start the conversation be suspicious of the other person.

Edited by Naoshiki
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all objects or attributes acquired and developed during play are an integral part of the Game and strictly remain the property of EA and/or its licensors

 

This doesn't address someone (whom they have full knowledge of) using their service for the explicit (oh he admits it readily, just ask him in vent) purpose of defrauding people. You don't have to get money for it to be fraud, you might only get the joy of defrauding people but it's still fraud and the people who chose their own actions based on that fraud have still been defrauded.

 

This person has admitted freely to myself and others that he intends to use the service bioware provides him with in order to commit felonies. At this point it doesn't matter who owns the stabs. It's not illegal to rent someone your car, it IS illegal to rent someone your car if they have told you they intend to use it in a crime. And he has, stated quite clearly that he intends to use the SWTOR service for the purpose of committing a crime.

 

 

definition: legal injury ... Injury may include physical hurt as well as damage to reputation or dignity,...

 

anything at all can be argued as legal injury

 

edit:

so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.

 

You're telling me the individuals that gave away their entire guild bank haven't had damage to their reputation or dignity?

Edited by Roycerson
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I don't agree with what's happening. The way the EUALA is written we don't have a leg to stand on, as far as theft is concerned. EA isn't loosing property; it's not theft. As far as the fraud of pretending to be someone else; EA has nothing written down that protects its player base.

 

It's just like if someone asks for your account info in an email and you provide that info. EA isn't going to do anything for you. The only fortunate thing is that since it happened to your account you could take legal action if you found who was responsible.

 

I don't think EA cares as long as they are making money.

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As far as the fraud of pretending to be someone else; EA has nothing written down that protects its player base.

 

I have nothing written down that prevents me from stealing cars or helping others to do so but it's still illegal if I do.

 

Which is why I'm trying to change the conversation. This guy was to be ignored by EA right up until he posted on the BBS about his intentions, that's when ignoring him became a crime in itself because they know full well he is using their subscription for crime. He bragged about it.

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I have nothing written down that prevents me from stealing cars or helping others to do so but it's still illegal if I do.

 

Which is why I'm trying to change the conversation. This guy was to be ignored by EA right up until he posted on the BBS about his intentions, that's when ignoring him became a crime in itself because they know full well he is using their subscription for crime. He bragged about it.

 

There are laws stating that you cannot steal cars. You are taking something that is owned by one individual for self gain.

 

YOU DO NOT OWN WHAT IS IN YOUR GUILD BANK. ITS PROPERTY OF EA. IF SOME GUY TAKES STUFF OUT OF YOUR BANK AND MOVES IT TO THEIR CHARACTER. ITS STILL EA'S PROPERTY. THEY DIDN'T LOSE THE PROPERTY. UNFORTUNATELY NO LAWS ARE BROKEN.

 

You might want to petition EA about player and user rights.

 

If you agreed to the EUALA YOU DON'T OWN SQUAT IN THIS GAME. The only thing you have the right to is the client that allows you access. Everything else is INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY owned by EA.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not sticking up for this guy. I personally think he is a douchebag. All we can seem to do now is protect ourselves and inform others.

Edited by Naoshiki
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You don't pay much attention do you? this conversation passed the idea of stabs being stolen property a long time ago. I was gong to clarify further but... Did you even read the post you quoted? A person needn't steal something to commit fraud. A person needn't help a person steal something to commit fraud. This has nothing at all to do with anything being stolen. and even if you refute what I didn't say in big red letters I still didn't say it.

 

I am 100% sure that this person has committed fraud as defined by law. I am 50% sure that bragged about it on this forum and the mods deleted that post (he told me he did. I don't entirely trust him). And I am 99% sure that no legal action will ever come of it.

 

The fact remains it IS a felony and continuing to facilitate his actions knowing what his intentions are is also a felony. (that's a period at the end of that sentence)

 

I'm having a hard time understanding why you posted anything at all. Why are you talking about theft as if that was my position? I'm talking about fraud. Fraud is not theft. Fraud is unrelated to theft the same way murder is unrelated to theft and also painting toenails = unrelated.

 

 

You could also toss the fraud argument and just go with impersonating.

 

We've already noted how California law makes it a crime to "personate" someone by pretending to be them, but with the new year, apparently such laws have been strengthened even more in California, with potential fines and jail time

 

If for no other reason than this, his actions are criminal. There is no suspension of law in game. It's illegal to do on twitter, it's illegal to do over the phone, it's illegal to in writing and with no additional laws required, it's illegal to do in a chat window. AND it's always illegal to facilitate someone who admits to you up front he intends to use your assistance for the purpose of illegal activity.

 

"knowingly and without consent credibly impersonates another actual person through or on an Internet Web site or by other electronic means for purposes of harming' date=' intimidating, threatening, or [b']defrauding[/b] another person"

 

this last bit of law is California state law (they have one for every state I assure you) and the person he was impersonating to me is from San Diego. W/ most of the population being on both coasts and considering the time of day he was on there is a considerable chance that both the impersonator and the impersonatee both live in California which would make the above text the exact law he's breaking (among others).

Edited by Roycerson
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It's not really a fraud. He gained something that wasn't yours; its not even his. Yes he lied to you. But the Supreme Court determined that lying and fraud are two seperate things.

 

I gave you a partial summed up definition of fraud. Look up the full legal definition as according to the US code. There really needs to some gain.

 

I'm not even sure why we are arguing this, let EA figure out if any laws are broken. I'm sure they have an excellent legal team that is getting paid quite well.

Edited by Naoshiki
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It's not really a fraud. He gained something that wasn't yours; its not even his. Yes he lied to you. But the Supreme Court determined that lying and fraud are two seperate things.

 

I gave you a partial summed up definition of fraud. Look up the full legal definition as according to the US code. There really needs to some gain.

 

I'm not even sure why we are arguing this, let EA figure out if any laws are broken. I'm sure they have an excellent legal team that is getting paid quite well.

 

Someone else posted a legal definition of fraud which included the words "legal injury" I then posted a legal definition of the term "legal injury". It's already there on the thread. I'm not going to post it again. I will ask the question for a second time. Are you telling me the guy who gave away his entire guild bank didn't suffer damage to his reputation and/or dignity?

 

you also ignored completely the California state law that prohibits impersonating people on electronic media. You just pretended like that didn't exist? Why don't you read the thread and join the conversation?

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Someone else posted a legal definition of fraud which included the words "legal injury" I then posted a legal definition of the term "legal injury". It's already there on the thread. I'm not going to post it again. I will ask the question for a second time. Are you telling me the guy who gave away his entire guild bank didn't suffer damage to his reputation and/or dignity?

 

you also ignored completely the California state law that prohibits impersonating people on electronic media. You just pretended like that didn't exist? Why don't you read the thread and join the conversation?

 

I am quite certain the legal team knows laws are being broken. I don't know if the guy actually posted here and said what he told me which would make BIG difference to bioware's legal culpability. But... why would I let them figure out if it's illegal? I'm a smart guy. I can do my own thinking AND I was actually there in guild chat and the vent channel. I know exactly what he said and who he claimed to be and who he claimed to be when he was busted about his first claim. I know all that and Bioware doesn't. So why would I have them tell me what it means? Who are you? Why do you hate facts?

 

You never even asked me exactly what happened, what he said. You never even asked, yet you already know it's not a crime. How could you possibly? You clearly came here with a conclusion already and aren't bothering to intake new information.

 

I know exactly what he said and who he claimed to be and who he claimed to be when he was busted about his first claim. I know all that and Bioware doesn't. So why would I have them tell me what it means? Who are you? Why do you hate facts?

 

 

regardless of what bioware decides is the law. They can be very certain it will not be enforced the same way I can tell you I am smoking a big joint right now and have a 1/4 lb in my desk w/o any fear whatsoever that cops will kick in my door. So why would they do anything at all? If he did post those things here they would have to ban him so as not to be complicit and perhaps turn his information over to authorities. and let me make thie EXTREMELY CLEAR, they would do that not for stealing stabs but for impersonating someone else and committing fraud.. If he didn't than they have nothing and can do nothing. Doesn't change the facts of the situation. It IS Fraud. It IS illegal. Anything who says otherwise doesn't know what's going on or is not qualified to tie their shoes. OR... is a shill. Are you a shill?

Edited by Roycerson
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Oh by the way he isn't commiting felony fraud, it's actually misdemeanor fraud.

 

Since he impersonated someone in vent; EA can't do anything about that.

 

Since you know so much why don't you take the guy to court.

 

IP will get you who is paying for the service. Cross reference that to a SWTOR account will get you the person playing. Call the cops on him! Yay all solved.

 

And double posts are bad etiquette. :p

Edited by Naoshiki
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Oh by the way he isn't commiting felony fraud, it's actually misdemeanor fraud.

 

You said it wasn't fraud at all. You still haven't asked exactly what he did.

 

Since he impersonated someone in vent; EA can't do anything about that.

 

I said that. I also said he also did it in swtor chat. Just gonna pretend you didn't read that part? pretend that this is YOU informing ME of that?

 

Since you know so much why don't you take the guy to court.

He neither impersonated nor defrauded me. Is that not completely clear?

 

IP will get you who is paying for the service. Cross reference that to a SWTOR account will get you the person playing.

 

No it won't. It'll get you and ISP. then it's contacting his provider etc. Not something that can be done by anyone other than law enforcement. except hackers, employees, some others no doubt. All those people are not me.

 

Call the cops on him! Yay all solved.

 

I *********** hate cops. They will kick in your door, shoot your dog, take your kids and throw you in a cage for playing poker. To do that you have to be as morally bankrupt as this scammer ******e. Mebbe more. Also, they'd laugh at me. They don't care about this ****. It doesn't make them money. AND, I don't necessarily want this guy's mother shot by a incompetent *********** pig. Never call the cops if you don't want someone shot and killed by and incompetent pig.

 

And double posts are bad etiquette.

 

apologies. Worse etiquette than cutting it all up and fixing it while you're replying to a post that no longer exists as it did when you hit reply? I made a mistake and thought it better to NOT fix it.

 

None of this changes the fact that every single word I have said in this thread is 100% accurate to the best of my ability. (exceot the part of the impersonatee being from California... maybe ... so far I haven't broken anyone's anonymity and will try to keep it that way)

Edited by Roycerson
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If anything this guy is harassing players on Po5 by doing this little scam - and I would hope Bioware would do something about it. Honestly, what a little d-bag? I have noticed threads have been deleted - there was one posted in the general section, i went to reply to it a few days ago and it was suddenly non-existent.
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What this guy is doing, and its harder now that folks are becoming aware of him - is joining a Guilds Voice using an officer or Gm's alias - from here he pretends to speak but nothing comes out, he whispers someone in game on a low lvl "alt" saying his mic isnt working, can he get an invite. Then he robs the gbank and runs off. How is this acceptable?
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It is not acceptable and it is not right. At the same time it is not something for BW to regulate as it invites too slippery slope. Plus the legal complexities, if there really are any, are too complex and difficult or too costly to enforce.

 

There is a lot of deceitful behavior in this game, and opportunities for people to be duped. At the end of the day this comes down to individual responsibility. The simplest and most fool-proof solution is for people to be more vigilant, and to inform the community which this thread and the deleted threads have done.

 

I say this having all the empathy for those who have been swindled. I hope this thread is not deleted and others on the server are able to learn from this.

 

Incidentally, what surprises me most is this guy's intimate knowledge of everyone's guild and their communication procedures.

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For you folks whose only response is "your own fault" "not Biowares fault your guild is dumb" and so on and so forth - your missing the point. In fact, your responses showing a compete lack of care make me think you could be the culprits. This was happening over the span of a few days, before this thread was made - and quite a few guilds got scammed. Why? The game has been out a year, and this has not happened. How can people predict something with no point of reference?

 

People did not 'randomly' promote someone, purposely give a stranger access to their guildbank. This individual or persons were impersonating a guild Officer or GM through their respective Voice - pretending their mic was not working and messaging a player in game on a low level alt. Honestly, If i didn't hear about this and the above scenario occurred I would have fallen for it too.

 

If a player in game sends tells to someone in a crude manner, it is considered harassment and action can be taken. If folks in general misbehave in a certain way, its harassment and action can be taken. Well, impersonating a guild member to gain access to their guild bank, then running away with stabilizers is harassment - and Bioware has to be looking into this, and a response would be lovely.

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I have been following this thread for a while now, and in all honesty the fault does not fall on the scammer (Btw he’s got some serious balls). How dim witted can your guild be to fall for something like that? It’s like taking candy from a baby. I mean really I hear you all ranting and wanting Bioware do something about it, and why should they?! He/she didn’t really break any rules really when you think about it. How can you’re the scammer did? It sounds like most of the chat was done in the guilds respective VoIP’s. Besides that can be manipulated. Secondly how could you prove he scammed you? If you gave the scammer the rights then you gave him the rights…. Christ you people are sad just get over it and implement new guild bank protocols to protect against this kind of stuff. We need to all be friends 
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I have been following this thread for a while now, and in all honesty the fault does not fall on the scammer (Btw he’s got some serious balls). How dim witted can your guild be to fall for something like that? It’s like taking candy from a baby. I mean really I hear you all ranting and wanting Bioware do something about it, and why should they?! He/she didn’t really break any rules really when you think about it. How can you’re the scammer did? It sounds like most of the chat was done in the guilds respective VoIP’s. Besides that can be manipulated. Secondly how could you prove he scammed you? If you gave the scammer the rights then you gave him the rights…. Christ you people are sad just get over it and implement new guild bank protocols to protect against this kind of stuff. We need to all be friends 

 

The fault does not fall on the scammer? This individual(s) is being a complete douche bag, how many threads exist on people ninja'n stuff, rolling on items they dont need...douchebaggery exists everywhere, it's not the fault of the individual being douched on! Whoever is / was doing this, did so before people knew about it - which 'most' do now because of the forums and general. Therefore, it was prior to folks having even foreseen any circumstance like this. You can't conceptualize an attack with no point of reference - it makes no sense. It's harassment plain and simple, and the biggest douchebag in the universe award goes too!

 

BTW my guild did not get scammed by this, but it frustrates me that some people don't seem to give a flying **** and in fact seem to stick up for this person. Glad your not my pal

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You guys need to think of this as personal security. If you think a situation is even the slightest bit odd, even if you have never encountered the situation, you should immediately question it.

 

I'm sure there are some players that played wow out there. How many times have people received emails stating that they were eligible for a free mount or a PTR trial. The email seems funny it comes from a name that looks like the host company. You click the link and the page looks just like the main login site. If you put your information and transmit it says something like your password is incorrect. Then it might have you verify your security questions. Once a person does that nothing happens. Well from that point said individual more than likely lost access to their account the security questions have been changed and all that fun stuff.

 

I know its a different situation from whats going on in game but the principle is the same. Someone is deceiving you to get something they want.

 

The Easiest way to prevent this guy from scamming anyone is to:

 

1. Limit who can invite to your guild.

2. Limit the access to your guild bank. (High value tab - limited access)

3. Limit who can promote characters in guild. (Make sure no one can promote to give access to "high value tab")

4. Verify from the main character that they are wanting to have an alt brought into a guild. (Don't take the word of a character that you have never seen before. How hard is it to switch to their main :p)

5. For new members in guild, don't promote them until they can be trusted or prove that they are there to help the guild.

 

Everything I stated is minimal security. If you want to go farther that's great.

 

On another note. If someone stole your identity. Took credit cards out in your name, got a few loans, subscribed to new services, et cetera. It doesn't matter how that individual got your information, whether he impersonated you, rummaged your trash or hacked your computer, YOU are still responsible for whatever damage they did. Now there is a long and lengthy process of recovering your identity but most companies will still hold you responsible.

 

So please do yourself a favor and protect yourself and always question a situation that seems a little odd.

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I'm double posting and yes I know its bad etiquette but i only do so because this post might get deleted and I do not want the previous post to get deleted because I feel like its pretty useful information.

 

The following are bad and funny situations that have happened in gaming. I hope you enjoy the read. Maybe we will see SWTOR on one of these lists one day.

 

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-6-most-spectacular-dick-moves-in-online-gaming-history/

 

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-7-biggest-dick-moves-in-history-online-gaming/

 

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-7-most-elaborate-dick-moves-in-online-gaming-history/

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First off, I just want to say that everyone has taken the intentions of my post incorrectly. I am simply posting as a guild GM trying to inform fellow players on my server about current scams. I could careless what happens to this guy, or if he broke the law, or anything in such manner. My concern is that fellow guilds on POTF do not fall victims to this d-bag.

 

And my question is, why would you simply just take this dudes word and promote him? I mean, lets put it into real life. If I came to your house and said I was your Lawyer and needed all your personal information and access to your bank accounts and what not, wouldn't that alarm you to seek further verification that I am truly your lawyer? I am sure most of you said yes, if you did not then you deserve whatever happens to you.

 

SOOOOOOO, lets get back on topic about warning other guilds about the issue at hand and keep our defenses up against the guy and quit being worried about if he is breaking the law or some BS like that. Because obviously this scam was present in WoW as well and nothing happened to those players either.

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