Luke fighting for real starts at 3:38 his father is toppled by shear power in under a minute Luke is only 20% more then vader and nearly double anakin. By this extent Vader would actually topple anakin in the same manner luke toppled him but instead of taking a minute it would take 30 seconds. By this extent any one anakin beat would be handled in an even faster manner By vader or Luke you have ALL comfirmed my belief EVERY SINGLE ONE of you greatly underestimates Luke's abilities dooku and ventress by extent of EXACT same tactics but power scaled means their is no and should never be a question of how the fight looks Luke topples them in under 10 seconds check the abilities and for once truelly understand the capabilities of the fighters this is the one case of Which A>B>C Logic works and it works at a truely grand lvl to show you just how much dooku or ventress vs Luke have no chance.

First off: Since Luke defeated Darth Vader in his anger, I didn't took into account the skills he shows off in these crucial moments (because I am assuming that he doesn't enter enrage mode during a huttball match).

Second: A>B>C is not a transitive relation when we are talking about combat. (i.e A>B>C doesn't imply that A>C) Darth Nihilus is the perfect counterexample for this and this example shows very well that you have to take into account the specific skills of the characters and even the circumstances under which they engage each other.

More importantly: Dooku doesn't need to defeat Luke. 30 seconds are enough time for Ventress and Grievous to move ahead such that Luke can't catch up before the score. So it doesn't matter whether he can defeat Dooku.

Moreover: Dooku could also engage Kota instead and still Ventress and Grievous are too fast to be stopped by Luke and the alliance forces (the troops can't really do anything and Luke can't stop them if they pass smartly). Again the fight Dooku vs Luke doesn't influence the result. (In fact Luke being near his own scoreline puts him in a bad position for a counterattack)

If you really want to discuss the fight Dooku vs. Luke, well here it comes: The fight between Luke and Vader on the deathstar doesn't really show Lukes skills, because as you said he doesn't want to fight for most of the time and after that, he is driven by anger.

Where do we see Luke fighting with the intention to kill and the skill he has during RotJ? The longest fight would be on the sail barge. Luke does make mistakes during this fight. Dooku can exploit such mistakes.

Also you are underestimating Dooku a little. Yoda once says that Dooku would be the ideal jedi (the book, where this is coming from, is titled "Yoda - ..." or "Count Dooku - ...". I don't remember).

Earlier you mentioned that Yoda wouldn't have sent Luke against the emperor, if he wouldn't have expected Luke to win. I disagree. When I watch the scenes of Yoda and Obi-Wan in Episode 6, I get the impression that they were very uncertain of the outcome of Lukes confrontation with the emperor. Otherwise they wouldn't have warned him so sincerely from the emperor. They simply did everything they could. If it wasn't enough they had lost(well, Leia is still there, but that's a different question).

Concerning the fight between Anakin and Dooku: If you read the novelization of Episode 3, you know that Dooku was supposed to lose (after killing Obi-Wan). After his defeat he would have been "redeemed" (politically) and after Anakins fall he would have been part of the new empire - at least that's what Sidious told him would happen. So it is hard to say whether Anakin really defeated Dooku so easily. And again let me emphasis that TTK in a combat between the characters does not behave multiplicatively to any kind of power level (which is changing anyway as soon as the force leaves a person or decides to be with a person).

Anyway, long story short: The outcome of this duel doesn't decide the match and I still think that the separatists win, because they have one more really fast person and don't have to occupy a monster like Durge.

Second: A>B>C is not a transitive relation when we are talking about combat. (i.e A>B>C doesn't imply that A>C) Darth Nihilus is the perfect counterexample for this and this example shows very well that you have to take into account the specific skills of the characters and even the circumstances under which they engage each other.

Nonetheless redacting that example, your argument does have weight. But in this situation ABC logic very much works. Because Luke mirrored Vader's fighting style, the same style that he used to defeat Dooku. And even if we take ABC logic out of this, Luke remains an exceptionally skilled duelist, more skilled than Vader. He also specialises in Djem So, which Makashi is inherently weak against.

And tunewalker, you raise some interesting points. I haven't read to ROTJ novel so I'll accept that what you say is true as you possess more facts. Originally I thought Luke's style was unrefined in the sense: untrained. But if he learned his form by mimicking Vader, well then that's a different story.

The problem with this point of view is that it is self contradicting. The reason ABC logic doesn't always work is because every fighter is unique with differing strengths and weaknesses. So we cannot then say, 'for example so and so' because they cannot be compared for that exact reason.

 

Nonetheless redacting that example, your argument does have weight. But in this situation ABC logic very much works. Because Luke mirrored Vader's fighting style, the same style that he used to defeat Dooku. And even if we take ABC logic out of this, Luke remains an exceptionally skilled duelist, more skilled than Vader. He also specialises in Djem So, which Makashi is inherently weak against.

 

And tunewalker, you raise some interesting points. I haven't read to ROTJ novel so I'll accept that what you say is true as you possess more facts. Originally I thought Luke's style was unrefined in the sense: untrained. But if he learned his form by mimicking Vader, well then that's a different story.

Actually the information is not just from the RoTJ novel its also in ESB novel ESB is when he began mimicing his father but he hadnt perfected it yet but when they faced each other again in RotJ it was a different story Luke's skills now perfectly mirrored his father. And by skills i do mean more then his saber combat the start of RotJ is supposed to show case with his easily choking 2 gaurds, vader in the movies never choked more then 1 person at a time, and calling a blaster into his hand from accrossed the room was supposed to mirror ESB when Vader takes the blaster from Han all of these scenes are meant to show the audience that Luke has become Vader's equal in every way. And his defeat of his father and untrying nature when facing him is of course suppose to symbolise that not only did he match his father but he surpassed him in every respect.

OK so I think this may be the last time I have to defend RotJ Luke so going to move into the match at hand I did some research on durge and Rohm and this seems to be an INCREDIBLY even match I truelly have to say Beni good job choosing these teams this match would be one for the history books.

I suspect like every good huttball match the first thing that will happen is a large battle in the middle will break out. R2 being a non combatent would stay out of it. I suspect Luke and Dooku being the team leaders will square off. While Marek will take on Greivous and Rohm will take on ventress leaving Durge free to grab the ball. The rebel special ops group sees durge grab the ball and starts firing on Durge and chucking grenade and doing as much damadge as possible durge shurgs most of this off blasting at the rebels while the sep droids are also firing at the rebs as they are trying to obstruct the objective. Some of durge's armor is destroyed by the reb's and the reb's lose almost all of their forces (only 1 left holding out as best he can.) In this time Luke has defeated Dooku and Marek used the Force to Crush greivous's ribs and used the moment when he was stunned to Zap and finish off the droid. With Marek, Luke and Durge free Durge starts moving towards the end zone just to be lifted up out of the air and thrown back by Marek. Luke, being who he is sets out to save the one remaining troop by taking out the droids.

The first 2 droids are taken out by Luke and then the other 2 start firing upon him the rebel fighter takes advantage of this took come out and take out the 3rd while Luke reflects a bolt back at the 4th the droid dodges this but doing so leaves it open to Luke taking it down with his saber. Ventress in the mean time starts to push back Rohm while Rohm is starting to use his telekentic skills to try to hold ventress at bay. This angers her more and more making her attack more fierce as she charges Rohm nearly overwhelming him. Luke again being who he is goes to rescue his team mate rather then deal with the ball carrier. He cuts down the rage blinded Ventress with out her notice bringing the full team up against durge. Durge's nearly completely destroyed at this point leaves his body open to be more flexible and he overcomes Marek trapping him down. Rohm grabs a grenade from one of the downed troops and flings it at durge the explosion frees marek and allows marek to use the force to restrict Durge's movements Rohm adds in to help marek make Durge unable to Move and Luke calls R2 into the center and uses his telekinetics to lift Durge off the ground and places him into the fire pit which ignites causing durge severe damadge forcing him into a hybernation.

This whole thing i believe would take a total time of about 20-30 seconds (a small skirmish battle is generally fierce and fast.) In this case i would call Durge's near inability to die a weakness as hybenation is worse then death in this game where death resets you just putting him into hybernation stops for longer then killing him.

Luke Marek and Rohm would move together to the end zone with the ball where they will face the full force of the enemy team (minus Durge who is still comatose and being burned) in their end zone. Dooku and ventrss would remain back firing lightning at Luke which would be blocked easily by Rohm and galen. The droids would also be firing at Luke which Luke would easily deflect while greivous would move to get a better position so as to engage with out blocking his team mates. As we saw in episode 2 it take just one hand on a saber to block dooku's (and by extension ventress's) lightning allowing galen and rohm to still use their telekinetics to destroy the droids freeing up Luke to charge the end zone blocking any lightning coming his way and being defended by galen and Rohm the rebels score and are able to take down the seps in their end zone until the next round in which Durge would rez with the team finally being killed by the fire pit. Being exhausted the rebels would face another fresh team of seps and be quickly overwhelmed by shear fire power several droids would be killed and possibly Dooku or ventress again but the rebel team is wiped out beginning with Rohm then Luke and finally Marek (as i believe they would take Rohm out first do to being the weaker one of the group and move on to Luke next as he has proven to be the most dangerous. before turning on marek where I feel Durge's strength and speed just overwhelms him while he is distracted by ventress or dooku or grievous.

The teams would meet in the middle again with another fierce battle and the match goes on like this until the score at the end of the game reads.

Rebels 4

Seperatists 2.

Rebs win.

Obviously by my end score I do actually believe that the seps will take the advantage at some points in the game or have a break away that the rebels will have a problem with but like most people know the middle is the key to a huttball game if you cant push the rebels out of the middle then they are just going to recover the ball even if you do get a break away or are able to power through once (most likely durge).

I said this before in the last thread, but I don't think proposing scenarios is a great way to evaluate this. Strategies, sure. But with 15 minutes and infinite lives, a LOT can happen that we just can't predict and/or know to the detail needed to make a viable scenario out of it. Too many variables, if you will.

To determine a winner we should look at strategies and their effectiveness, not what someone thinks might be the final score.

Almost forgot the most important thing: @Warren & Selenial Don't forget that Ventress' anger and hate (and hence her destructive power) will increase rapidly everytime Dooku respawns back from the dead. This must be like a stackable enrage buff.

Lol! XD

I said this before in the last thread, but I don't think proposing scenarios is a great way to evaluate this. Strategies, sure. But with 15 minutes and infinite lives, a LOT can happen that we just can't predict and/or know to the detail needed to make a viable scenario out of it. Too many variables, if you will.

 

To determine a winner we should look at strategies and their effectiveness, not what someone thinks might be the final score.

 

 

 

 

 

Lol! XD

I abosolutely agree with you but i find it difficult as strategies should alter with the what happens. the scenerio i put forth is just one of a hundred scenerios that could play out I just find it more likely based off the strengths and weakness of the combatents on both sides along with some of their known habits and strategies.

Almost forgot the most important thing: @Warren & Selenial Don't forget that Ventress' anger and hate (and hence her destructive power) will increase rapidly everytime Dooku respawns back from the dead. This must be like a stackable enrage buff.

I lol'd oh so hard at that

Lol! XD

I lol'd oh so hard at that

Beni said it. "Let the shenanigans begin.":D

It has been about a decade since I read the novelisation, but some subconscious part of my memory is telling me that tunewalker is right.

But in this situation ABC logic very much works. Because Luke mirrored Vader's fighting style, the same style that he used to defeat Dooku. And even if we take ABC logic out of this, Luke remains an exceptionally skilled duelist, more skilled than Vader. He also specialises in Djem So, which Makashi is inherently weak against.

That convinces me that ABC logic applies here. The reason I wrote the part you quoted is that I'm very sensitive about ABC logic being used without a good explanation.

Concerning the scenario (or strategy in some form) tunewalker described above: As I wrote earlier, the separatists are probably better of by letting Durge deal with Galen Marek (I consider him the most dangerous one of the rebel team, because he's the fastest one and speed is a very important factor in Huttball).

I feel like the important points have been made. How long until the timer reaches zero, Beni?

Beni said it. "Let the shenanigans begin.":D

 

It has been about a decade since I read the novelisation, but some subconscious part of my memory is telling me that tunewalker is right.

 

 

 

 

That convinces me that ABC logic applies here. The reason I wrote the part you quoted is that I'm very sensitive about ABC logic being used without a good explanation.

 

Concerning the scenario (or strategy in some form) tunewalker described above: As I wrote earlier, the separatists are probably better of by letting Durge deal with Galen Marek (I consider him the most dangerous one of the rebel team, because he's the fastest one and speed is a very important factor in Huttball).

 

I feel like the important points have been made. How long until the timer reaches zero, Beni?

I can see that the only thing is Durge's Lack of force sensitivty going up against Marek's beast of telekentics I dont think Durge will be able to do much since he shouldn't truely be able to get close but at the same time i don't see Marek really killing durge either i guess its just both of them keeping each other occupied or until galen does enough damadge to durge to put him into hybernation. As far as speed goes i would warrent to say Luke would be just as fast as Galen he has plenty of impressive accrobatic feats from his fights along with his training on dagobah

I think this battle comes down to power vs agility... the Rebels having power and the Separitists having agility. But then we have to consider whether the Seps have enough power to negate that, or whether the Rebels have enough agility.

Thoughts?

I think this battle comes down to power vs agility... the Rebels having power and the Separitists having agility. But then we have to consider whether the Seps have enough power to negate that, or whether the Rebels have enough agility.

 

Thoughts?

Hmmm This is a good question actually I believe Galen and Luke deffinately have enough agility I would put both on par with ventress in this regard but would give greivous the greater agility do to his body. Unfortunately the seps i dont feel have enough power in their agile members unlike the rebels. The rebels power players are also their mobile ones while the power ones of the seps are also the less maneuverable not to mention i very much see the rebels controlling the feild of battle with great efficiency. Let me see if i can explain.

Already i have said that Luke and Galen are the most agile. Rohm is used to trench war fare and gladatorial combat something this arena will feel very much like. His most common strategy was using telekentics to ensnare opponents in traps or coral people where he wanted them. R2 has sensors that can tell his team and himself where every one is at all times, and of course we have to consider the support team the rebels themselves many of whom were graduates of the imperial academy having some of the greatest conventional military tactics taught to them but what sets them apart is also their theoretical tactical knowledge and often unconventional awnsers and trap setting which they have found to be perfect counters to much of the empire. This is part of the reason they often were able to succeed even with 10 to 1 odds or worse against them. Half the seperatist team is made of droids who are completely incapable of unconventional thought since no droid can ever go beyond the basis of its programming. Then durge who has on several occassions walked straight into a trap almost willingly which has caused his opponenet to injure him and get away and is actually what would come to cause his death at the hands of anakin. And ventress as far as i can tell is one to just go for brute strength and is often times over confident with her abilities. The only 2 i feel are tactical enough to potentially counter the rebel's actions are dooku who, in his old age, while nible and having good foot work does not have the agility to take care of it and greivous who isnt likely to set trap but he isnt likely to fall for them (unless his arogance gets the best of him somthing that is known for happenning on occasion) and is easily shut down through the use of telekenetics. With people like this in an arena that supports such trap setting I see the rebels cutting down the mobility of the seperatists through clever coraling and trap setting.

I think this battle comes down to power vs agility... the Rebels having power and the Separitists having agility. But then we have to consider whether the Seps have enough power to negate that, or whether the Rebels have enough agility.

 

Thoughts?

I think, the rebs have extra push when it comes to a down right battle, while separatist have agility? I don't think even they have that, even then they only have it for a limited time then they would tire.

Rebels win this

I think, the rebs have extra push when it comes to a down right battle, while separatist have agility? I don't think even they have that, even then they only have it for a limited time then they would tire.

 

Rebels win this

I don't fully understand when people say the Rebels win in battle. Is Luke ZOMG powerful? Yes. Are any of their other players? Not so much.

R2-D2 doesn't even fight. So they're crippled from the start in combat.

Dooku specializes in usage of the Force, which he beats both Starkiller and Rahm in. He can deflect Starkiller's lightning, break through Rahm's Force defense, and move objects much larger than either have been shown to do (don't bring up the Star Destroy, that doesn't count).

Ventress specializes in lightsaber combat. Despite statements to the contray, Ventress only used Makashi as an enhancer to her main form: Jar'kai. Jar'kai stressed an offense lightsaber assault at all times, meaning that Rahm and Starkiller, possibly even Luke, will have trouble defending, as that is not what their forms are geared towards. None of these duelists have ever encountered a foe with duel lightsabers, meaning they wiill be unprepared and without training in how to effectively parry her blows, for sure while possessing only one lightsber.

Durge is a powerhouse that doesn't even need to worry about lightsabers. Despite assumptions that he is slow due to his size, his Wookieepedia entry cites that he can keep pace with Jedi Knights. He also possesses energy shields that deflect lightsabers and flamethrowers, an infamously effective weapon against Jedi and lightsabers. He could very well charge up to Luke, Starkiller, or Rahm and crush them under his shielded boot.

Grievous would best Rahm in combat easily, seeing as Rahm's form is meant to strictly face one opponent, not four different lightsabers. He'd be able to distract and/or intimidate Luke in much the same way as he did to Obi-wan, holding him off for the seconds needed for his team to score.

Really, I don't understand how Seps are less skilled in combat. They're not. They're also plenty agile, considering that Grievous, Ventress, and Durge have all proven to be extraordinarily fast. Also, one does not tire when they have the Force, robotic legs, or the strength of a mountain.

Ventress specializes in lightsaber combat. Despite statements to the contray, Ventress only used Makashi as an enhancer to her main form: Jar'kai. Jar'kai stressed an offense lightsaber assault at all times, meaning that Rahm and Starkiller, possibly even Luke, will have trouble defending, as that is not what their forms are geared towards. None of these duelists have ever encountered a foe with duel lightsabers, meaning they wiill be unprepared and without training in how to effectively parry her blows, for sure while possessing only one lightsber.

Jar'Kai is the term for dual-wielding. Her lightsaber form is Makashi. Which means that she uses Makashi as a "Jar'Kai tactic"

I don't fully understand when people say the Rebels win in battle. Is Luke ZOMG powerful? Yes. Are any of their other players? Not so much.

 

R2-D2 doesn't even fight. So they're crippled from the start in combat.

R2-D2 besides common belief is fully armed and capable of fighting, we see his gadgets in action in the movies some are:

Flamethrower

Flight booster

Electric discharge

Storage (either personal weapon or other user weapon)

Dooku specializes in usage of the Force, which he beats both Starkiller and Rahm in. He can deflect Starkiller's lightning, break through Rahm's Force defense, and move objects much larger than either have been shown to do (don't bring up the Star Destroy, that doesn't count).

While dooku is very skilled and uses finesse to overwhelm opponents he has a weakness to either: Brute raw power or exotic style he doesn't know of.

StarKiller as I dislike in saying this, uses raw power combined with force powers to overwhelm opponents he might as well kill dooku easily, Rahm Kota is the perfect example of Dooku's weaknesses as Kota uses Juyo agressively while taking a defense stance he might aswell kill dooku easily.

Ventress specializes in lightsaber combat. Despite statements to the contray, Ventress only used Makashi as an enhancer to her main form: Jar'kai. Jar'kai stressed an offense lightsaber assault at all times, meaning that Rahm and Starkiller, possibly even Luke, will have trouble defending, as that is not what their forms are geared towards. None of these duelists have ever encountered a foe with duel lightsabers, meaning they wiill be unprepared and without training in how to effectively parry her blows, for sure while possessing only one lightsber.

One word: Luke, he would be taking of Ventress first then help with either Grievous or Dooku, he is team leader

Durge is a powerhouse that doesn't even need to worry about lightsabers. Despite assumptions that he is slow due to his size, his Wookieepedia entry cites that he can keep pace with Jedi Knights. He also possesses energy shields that deflect lightsabers and flamethrowers, an infamously effective weapon against Jedi and lightsabers. He could very well charge up to Luke, Starkiller, or Rahm and crush them under his shielded boot.

Durge is the separatist ace card, but he can be overwhelmed by likes of Obiwan?

Anyway, he fall in the floor once either Luke hits him eith R2-D2 to finish him off.

Grievous would best Rahm in combat easily, seeing as Rahm's form is meant to strictly face one opponent, not four different lightsabers. He'd be able to distract and/or intimidate Luke in much the same way as he did to Obi-wan, holding him off for the seconds needed for his team to score.

Not, Grievous isn't in the same league as powerful force sensitives, he might aswell run for his life to be killed by Lukes saber.

Really, I don't understand how Seps are less skilled in combat. They're not. They're also plenty agile, considering that Grievous, Ventress, and Durge have all proven to be extraordinarily fast. Also, one does not tire when they have the Force, robotic legs, or the strength of a mountain.

Its just the outter image, they aren't strong they are quite weak, while they have "their moments" im sure good guys coordianting will eventually triumph and win the match.

See how the answer to everything is Luke? He can't be everyplace at once, and if he truly is running around helping others or defeating the Seps 1v1, then he isn't scoring. See: loyalty to teammates.

StarKiller as I dislike in saying this, uses raw power combined with force powers to overwhelm opponents he might as well kill dooku easily, Rahm Kota is the perfect example of Dooku's weaknesses as Kota uses Juyo agressively while taking a defense stance he might aswell kill dooku easily.

I don't understand your justification for Starkiller easily killing Dooku. Dooku can easily deflect lightning, possibly even back at Starkliller, while Starkiller has never been shown to possess this ability. He is also far more skilled with telepathic powers. You provide no reason why Starkiller would easily kill Dooku, other then "raw power."

Rahm Kota focuses on defense during combat, despite his Juyo form. By definition, defense does not kill people easily. Not only that, but Dooku often uses Force powers during combat that could defeat Rahm without even engaging him in a lightsaber duel. (Note what he did to Obi-wan, a far superior Jedi to Rahm)

See how the answer to everything is Luke? He can't be everyplace at once, and if he truly is running around helping others or defeating the Seps 1v1, then he isn't scoring. See: loyalty to teammates.

As already proven in earlier posts, loyalty would be enough to keep baddies at bay as more good guys would be left standing.

I don't understand your justification for Starkiller easily killing Dooku. Dooku can easily deflect lightning, possibly even back at Starkliller, while Starkiller has never been shown to possess this ability. He is also far more skilled with telepathic powers. You provide no reason why Starkiller would easily kill Dooku, other then "raw power."

Ok, in canon Starkiller was trained by Vader even though he never faced someone similar to Dooku, he defeated vader that says enough in raw power and force powers.

Rahm Kota focuses on defense during combat, despite his Juyo form. By definition, defense does not kill people easily. Not only that, but Dooku often uses Force powers during combat that could defeat Rahm without even engaging him in a lightsaber duel. (Note what he did to Obi-wan, a far superior Jedi to Rahm)

I said Kota would best him because he is blind, he wouldn't see Dookus finesse and rather focus on the force, combined with a defense style he would be able to sense openings in Makashi making him turn agressive only in those times, killing Dooku.

 

 

Ventress specializes in lightsaber combat. Despite statements to the contray, Ventress only used Makashi as an enhancer to her main form: Jar'kai. Jar'kai stressed an offense lightsaber assault at all times, meaning that Rahm and Starkiller, possibly even Luke, will have trouble defending, as that is not what their forms are geared towards. None of these duelists have ever encountered a foe with duel lightsabers, meaning they wiill be unprepared and without training in how to effectively parry her blows, for sure while possessing only one lightsber.

 

 

 

 

 

See how the answer to everything is Luke? He can't be everyplace at once, and if he truly is running around helping others or defeating the Seps 1v1, then he isn't scoring. See: loyalty to teammates.

 

 

 

I don't understand your justification for Starkiller easily killing Dooku. Dooku can easily deflect lightning, possibly even back at Starkliller, while Starkiller has never been shown to possess this ability. He is also far more skilled with telepathic powers. You provide no reason why Starkiller would easily kill Dooku, other then "raw power."

 

Rahm Kota focuses on defense during combat, despite his Juyo form. By definition, defense does not kill people easily. Not only that, but Dooku often uses Force powers during combat that could defeat Rahm without even engaging him in a lightsaber duel. (Note what he did to Obi-wan, a far superior Jedi to Rahm)

As far as starkiller is concerned I agree with you in some points and disagree with others firstly that i dont believe he is as powerful as people believe see my previous post on page 3 5th post down starting at 3rd paragraph. That being said Galen would be just as capable of blocking lightning with his saber as Luke is and telekentic wise Dooku has not shown skill beyond Galen I would put them at a very even lvl in that regards. In saber combat (which is what i believe a battle between these 2 would come down to) Galen uses Djem So and was trained in it by the same man that defeated Dooku while it is not the same exact style it is similar enough and Galen has comparable power to RotS Anakin as such I see Dooku doing about as well against galen as he did vs Anakin, I dont believe he will get owned as badly as i believe Luke will own him but he will still get beat pretty fast this does mean Luke doesnt have to take care of Dooku. He can take care of Ventress move on to help with durge while starkiller handles dooku and rohm handles greivous as soon as starkiller is done with dooku he can help rohm handle greivous. Who i believe would sooner or later start to over come Rohm, but knowing Rohm he would likely try to buy as much time with his telekentics, something Greivous has little defense against lacking force sensitivity, until help would arive likely in the form of Galen and around the same time Galen takes out Greivous using force crush to stun greivous and force lightning to finish him. Most likely around this time durge would go down any number of ways from being moved into a trap or having his head chopped off by Luke. Luke isnt the end all awnser to everything the rebels have.

Actually the real end all for the rebels is going to be their tactics as i have already said above this arena is something that would play off their strengths greatly. Not to mention the opponents they are facing are again right up the rebels alley they use largely conventional tactics half the team completely incapable of artistic thought and the other half full of ruthless opponents prone to arrogance something the rebels have used to their advantage incredibly often the seps are playing the rebs game they just dont know it yet.

P.S. I honostly knew the rebels would appear to be the under dogs to these forums the moment this match was set up and not because the rebels arent capable of winning or arent incredibly powerful or agile or incapable of tactical thought, because obviously they are, but instead more because of recent media. There is little recent films or visual media at all showing the abilities of the rebels. The flashy clone wars series just looks more impressive then a Novel (something a lot of people arent going to pick up especially older novel's) so people will be fooled to think that these characters are just better simply do to lack of knowledge or to misinformation based on the flashyness of the newer stuff vs the more technilogically limited stuff of the older stuff.

P.S.S I can not believe i have to defend Luke AGAIN Ventress lasts against Luke even less time then Dooku does as her cannon ending is still death by Anakin who at the time was weaker then he was in RotS once again Luke mirrored vader who is anakin Luke ends ventress in 5 seconds flat. Also if we really want to argue Greivous vs Luke or Durge vs Luke let me know i have been leaving that alone since i figured i was done defending RotJ Lukes abilities but if i need continue I will.

P.S.S.S This one is for you beni. Really got to thank you for putting this match together its been hella entertaining and other that i also have to thank you for helping me get accross the information i was trying to give. I know my posts are generally not the simplist to read and some people seem to be skimming them rather the reading them in their entirety so i want to thank you for simplifying some of my arguments into slightly more cohesive and less wall of txt style.

I think this battle comes down to power vs agility... the Rebels having power and the Separitists having agility. But then we have to consider whether the Seps have enough power to negate that, or whether the Rebels have enough agility.

 

Thoughts?

That's pretty much what I'm thinking. And if I think about the huttball matches I played I noticed the following: Power is only useful for defence. When attacking, killing an opponent potentially places him between your ball carrier and the goalline (the exception are healers, which we don't have here).

Now the separatists have rather powerful, agile fighters (Ventress and Grievous) who can defeat the ball carrier (if necessary by outnumbering him. Ever tried to block six attacks at the same time?)

The rebels have only one really fast fighter and that is Galen. (What Galen can do in TFU is beyond anything Luke does in Episode 6 if we talk about agility and flexibility.) One fast carrier isn't enough, if the enemy has two fast defenders who can catch up.

Also: R2 can fight, but he has no way to defend himself against anybody (except for hiding). Therefore if 2 of the droids are taking care of him (as I suggested for the separatists) he can't do a lot. Therefore, while the rebels do have 2 very powerful fighters, their powerful fighters are still outnumbered ( 4 vs 3) which is a problem if anyone of them has to carry the ball or if they have to stop the separatists ball carrier.

So my vote goes for agility in this one.

That's pretty much what I'm thinking. And if I think about the huttball matches I played I noticed the following: Power is only useful for defence. When attacking, killing an opponent potentially places him between your ball carrier and the goalline (the exception are healers, which we don't have here).

Now the separatists have rather powerful, agile fighters (Ventress and Grievous) who can defeat the ball carrier (if necessary by outnumbering him. Ever tried to block six attacks at the same time?)

The rebels have only one really fast fighter and that is Galen. (What Galen can do in TFU is beyond anything Luke does in Episode 6 if we talk about agility and flexibility.) One fast carrier isn't enough, if the enemy has two fast defenders who can catch up.

Also: R2 can fight, but he has no way to defend himself against anybody (except for hiding). Therefore if 2 of the droids are taking care of him (as I suggested for the separatists) he can't do a lot. Therefore, while the rebels do have 2 very powerful fighters, their powerful fighters are still outnumbered ( 4 vs 3) which is a problem if anyone of them has to carry the ball or if they have to stop the separatists ball carrier.

 

So my vote goes for agility in this one.

Got to look at episode 5 for a lot of Lukes agility feats honostly. And i would not count on ventress as a strong fighter both galen and luke should be able to easily take her seeing as they are the ones likely to carry the ball one of which being a mirror of vader (who killed ventress as anakin before RotS in her still only ending) the other of which was trained by vader both using djem so. Honostly my experience is a powerful enough team doesnt need to be agile and can keep the opponent litterally trapped at thier endzone in a lot of ranked matches its almost always the ball carrier that refuses to go down that makes it and i dont see the seps really having any awnser for Luke and in some ways not much of an awnser for Galen either. The only way to take down tough tanks in ranked matches is clever trap control which as ihave said before the rebels have that in spades while the seps just dont.

Also again i feel like everyone is writing off R2 here and writing off the rebel special ops i have already covered their strats and if the 2 droids are off chasing poor R2 then the rebels are actually the ones with the numbers advantage meaning they could clear mid even faster with most every one still alive and get to the enemy endzone just to take out most if not all the opposing team on the way to the end zone and on the way back pretty much making it to where the seps never make it past mid.

P.S.S I can not believe i have to defend Luke AGAIN Ventress lasts against Luke even less time then Dooku does as her cannon ending is still death by Anakin who at the time was weaker then he was in RotS once again Luke mirrored vader who is anakin Luke ends ventress in 5 seconds flat. Also if we really want to argue Greivous vs Luke or Durge vs Luke let me know i have been leaving that alone since i figured i was done defending RotJ Lukes abilities but if i need continue I will.

For anyone who continues to say that Makashi auto-loses against Djem-So.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJFopXe_Aok

Notice how Ventress is effortlessly countering Anakin's strikes and then...

Wait for it...

She wins.

So no, people, just because Ventresses uses Makashi, and was defeated by Anakin in a duel that isn't even cannon, does not mean that she would be torn apart by either Luke or Starkiller. She is able to defeat Anakin with little effort, easily blocking his blows and augmenting her combat with agility the likes of which Luke (at least) has never had to deal with. And before there's a whole repeat of "I must defend Luke's honor!" I understand that Luke is better than Anakin. I get it. But this is an example of how the argument is fundamentally flawed in that Anakin never actually (in cannon) beat Ventress. Therefor A>B>C logic does not make sense.

And then there's this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTgL4-gQRVs

This one's my favorite. Force Choke Obi-wan or Anakin? Why not both?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7JsP3tn9s0

She could do the same to any of the Rebel players. To avoid starting the Luke ZOMG stuff up again, I'll settle for replacing Obi-wan and Anakin with Starkiller and Rahm.

People underestimate Ventress too much.

For anyone who continues to say that Makashi auto-loses against Djem-So.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJFopXe_Aok

 

Notice how Ventress is effortlessly countering Anakin's strikes and then...

 

Wait for it...

 

She wins.

 

So no, people, just because Ventresses uses Makashi, and was defeated by Anakin in a duel that isn't even cannon, does not mean that she would be torn apart by either Luke or Starkiller. She is able to defeat Anakin with little effort, easily blocking his blows and augmenting her combat with agility the likes of which Luke (at least) has never had to deal with. And before there's a whole repeat of "I must defend Luke's honor!" I understand that Luke is better than Anakin. I get it. But this is an example of how the argument is fundamentally flawed in that Anakin never actually (in cannon) beat Ventress. Therefor A>B>C logic does not make sense.

I wasnt talking about makashi I was talking about this

Also this is still a weaker anakin then the one that defeated dooku in episode 3.

Further more http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg1ZBbEZ_y4 congrats from current cannon and Luke was just as skilled as his father in force choke if not more so. Nothing stopping him from just choking her to death.

I wasnt talking about makashi I was talking about this

which is still the cannon ending as the current clone wars series is canceled and she was still alive at the end we know she needed to be dead before episode 3 so this is still the way she dies makashi has nothing to do with it Anakin beats her fair and square thus so should Luke.

 

Also this is still a weaker anakin then the one that defeated dooku in episode 3.

That entire series is no longer cannon. We do not know what (in cannon) happened to Ventress.

And even if it is, notice how that fight lasted 6 minutes? Hardly the 5 seconds you're suggesting. This is why I'm asking you to respect the character. Your own examples don't support your one-shot kill argument.

Also, I updated that last post a few times.

That entire series is no longer cannon. We do not know what (in cannon) happened to Ventress.

 

And even if it is, notice how that fight lasted 6 minutes? Hardly the 5 seconds you're suggesting. This is why I'm asking you to respect the character. Your own examples don't support your one-shot kill argument.

 

Also, I updated that last post a few times.

I know i saw still changes nothing and several of those things are still considered cannon the end when and how palp is kid napped the stuff with durge and several points with greivous are still considered cannon everything is cannon until it is in direct contradiction with something else until we see another way for her to die thats still the way she dies.

And yes but we have to take into account scale here anakins powers could as much as double from that time and we know Lukes are Double RotS anakin not that anakin so that coupled with her duels against dooku showing her to be a lesser makashi master then dooku seems to support her losing faster. Characters get better over time dont you think its possible you are now underestimating RotS anakin.

Further more http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg1ZBbEZ_y4 congrats from current cannon and Luke was just as skilled as his father in force choke if not more so. Nothing stopping him from just choking her to death.

I have no idea where you are getting that from. Luke never choked any Gammorreans, and he certainly never would considering he's a, you know, Jedi? On his Wookieepedia article in makes no mention of him EVER using Force Choke, much less by the RotJ time.