Jump to content

Debunking false ideas about Mara/Sents in PVP


Phasersablaze

Recommended Posts

Marauders don't have the best defensive CDs in the game,

 

Mercenary 12 second 25% damage reduction 2 minute cooldown, while you have 5 defensive cooldowns one of which (cloak of pain) is on half the cooldown time and lasts over twice as long, Same for a powertech TANK. So yes you have better defensive cooldowns than powertech tanks.

 

 

 

Marauders don't have healing... they aren't healers and they don't stand back and heal but they do have a spec that can raise survivability due to self-healing, and they are not the highest damage output in the game because that honor goes to Mercs who can spam TM on a Operation boss, Snipers, Madness Assassins, and Rage specs of the SW class... but Marauders are part of the highest damage ACs of the game.

 

My friend can do 1k DPS as an annihilation marauder which of course is lower than lolsmashspec but still makes him pretty much top of the food chain and guess what on top of that he does 150k healing. Tanksins self healing was nerfed because marauders were whining that there is a class that can fight them on equal terms, so tanksin healing got nerfed ... but dont worry, tracer missile got nerfed, tanksin got nerfed, operatives got nerfed, powertechs (even tanks) got nerfed so dont worry all you lolrauders will get brought in line with the other classes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 240
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

And not just that. There are concrete differentiating factors between the classes. People QQ about defensive CDs, but if we get those taken away and get a 4sec hard stun then it'll be people eating Ravage all day every day. Then we'll hear QQ about stuns and Ravage. Can't please everyone, especially people who refuse to enjoy the game, roll many classes, and play the story.

 

There are reasons why force choke is channeled, during early testing it was a non-channeled hard stun and people got wrecked uber hard. Plenty of things got changed.

 

I have faith that SWTOR devs will make improvements and adjustments over the long haul. Rome wasn't built overnight.

 

I agree. Sent/Mara is actually, with the sole exception of Smash/Sweep spec, is in line. There is nothing wrong with their damage numbers, they are flat out damage beasts and its to be expected of a class with only DPS specs. I play a healer primarily and while I'd absolutely love it if they just nerfed DPS into the ground, I'm also aware that there is this concept called balance and that there are going to be classes which dominate at killing players. Sent/Mara is one of them and changing that will frankly be a shame.

 

The only thing which may be slightly imbalancing in my opinion is Guarded by the Force/Cloak of Pain, and I think what's a little overpowering about it is the fact that you deal full damage while basically being immortal (and if you have a healer nearby, you just earned yourself a free second life). But even with that said, if the class is imbalanced, its only marginally and I don't think it should be a priority.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've yet to see a trooper ability that allows you to autocrit for 5K damage on 5 enemies.

 

Their hard hitting abilities also have a relatively long ramp up time, are channeled,or, in the case of their AOE abilities, someone can just run out of the AOE.

 

I've seen maybe 1 vid where that happened - never seen it in game.

 

Ignoring that, your argument is that: The class that can do the most aoe is op'd because they can do the most aoe? Note that all of those maras have to get right next to you to do their burst (not so with most of the other dmg aoes).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not the worst player but the average. That's how it's always been done and will continue to be done.

 

 

I don't know where you are getting your wild ideas, but what you are describing is impossible. There is no way to determine the "average" as you say. How do you know if the player isn't just a little bit better or a little bit worse then average? You don't. Key word: SUBJECTIVE.

 

There is only one standard of balance that is not subjective. That's a class' max potential. That is the only way any class can be balanced because everything else is just speculation. I don't know where you get your hair-brained ideas or why you think bioware already holds to them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He was actually correct. Mercs are easily on par with marauder in terms of damage output. The point he made was that in a warzone mercs don't get to freecast like they do on op bosses and hence can't pull the same numbers.

 

So why is he bringing up PVE situations into a PVP discussion? Because he has to stretch so hard that marauders aren't OP that he has to bring in PVE situations in order to defend his claim. It's getting pathetic.

 

You are losing ground here, marauders got the best defensives. Who else has god mode? You say juggs get saber ward...oh guess who else gets saber ward? Honestly the only marauders defending this class so much don't want to get there OP life style changed. There is a reason why there are so many sents/marauders in PVP, gee where are all the Op/merc dps? :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TM TM TM TM TM TM TM

 

Yeah, it was very balanced. :rolleyes:

 

 

So I see you are one of the marauders that I used to decimate because he didn't know what an interrupt was. FYI before 1.2 when they adjusted the barrage proc it was perfectly acceptable to cast 5 or 6 tracers in a row if nothing else was up and barrage didn't proc.

 

TM gave 10% damage reduction, buffed Rail Shot, Buffed HSM, and reduced my target's armor. What a stupid spell to cast huh?

 

:rolleyes: learn to interrupt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So why is he bringing up PVE situations into a PVP discussion? Because he has to stretch so hard that marauders aren't OP that he has to bring in PVE situations in order to defend his claim. It's getting pathetic.

 

 

 

^^^ Pretty much. Do you even play PVP Arash?

Edited by Phasersablaze
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So why is he bringing up PVE situations into a PVP discussion? Because he has to stretch so hard that marauders aren't OP that he has to bring in PVE situations in order to defend his claim. It's getting pathetic.

 

You are losing ground here, marauders got the best defensives. Who else has god mode? You say juggs get saber ward...oh guess who else gets saber ward? Honestly the only marauders defending this class so much don't want to get there OP life style changed. There is a reason why there are so many sents/marauders in PVP, gee where are all the Op/merc dps? :rolleyes:

 

Firstly, God mode is for Sins and Shadows and no one else (2 abilities to basically make you immune to all damage and cc). The most OP aspect of UR is not that they simply get to live longer and maybe get a heal or two, but because they get free time to play objectively. By that I mean that they cannot be killed while it is up and it allows them to defend an objective long past the time they should have otherwise died. This also gives them a large advantage in 1v1, but warzones are not dueling arenas.

 

Let's be honest, maras bring one true piece of utility to the table and that is whatever ability they choose to use with 30 stacks built up (predation, berserk, depends on spec and circumstance really). They can't taunt or guard (pt, sin, jugg), they can't heal or use tons of CC(sorc, merc, op), they can only kill stuff and if you let them stay on you that's what they'll do. They are just like snipers, but far more vulnerable in melee range and so they need CDs to mitigate a lot of the damage they take.

 

I'm not saying they are perfectly balanced with every other class, but a majority of complaints come from mercs and sorcs (of which I have both, no 50 maras yet) who are the main targets of maras. When (if?) mercs get their boost to escapability (just like hybrid sorcs have atm), they will have far fewer problems with melee when played correctly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry but that doesn't refute my post at all. He basically says that he is going to make it easier for bad players to reach maximum potential. AT NO POINT does he say that he is raising or lowering the max potential of a Merc.

 

Basically what happened was that heat management became automatic 8 heat every 6 seconds instead of tied into venting heats when you crit. You know how much this change affected me? ZERO, because I was already skilled at heat management.

 

What he is talking about has nothing to do with class balance. He just made the class easier to play for baddies.

 

Nice try, but your argument doesn't hold water.

 

P.S. You can cut the "I don't know why I waste my impeccable knowledge on you" crap. That's just snobbish

 

I believe your post was stating that class balance can only be based on the maximum potential of the class because it is impossible to determine the "average". Seeing as they can measure how players are playing their classes and see that a majority of people are not meeting that potential, they can then make changes to improve the class without increasing the overall capability of the class. I believe this is directly related to your argument.

 

As I said in my earlier post, you can argue whether or not their particular changes truly assisted players and it does not change my point that the way classes are balanced is contrary to your statement. Perhaps you were not affected by the change because you were more skilled and not performing at the low end of their expectations. Perhaps since this particular question was directed towards PVE, it was not a change that was meant to affect you in PVP.

 

Regardless, it is proof that class balance happens at multiple levels of gameplay, not simply the ideal player skill.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe your post was stating that class balance can only be based on the maximum potential of the class because it is impossible to determine the "average". Seeing as they can measure how players are playing their classes and see that a majority of people are not meeting that potential, they can then make changes to improve the class without increasing the overall capability of the class. I believe this is directly related to your argument.

 

As I said in my earlier post, you can argue whether or not their particular changes truly assisted players and it does not change my point that the way classes are balanced is contrary to your statement. Perhaps you were not affected by the change because you were more skilled and not performing at the low end of their expectations. Perhaps since this particular question was directed towards PVE, it was not a change that was meant to affect you in PVP.

 

Regardless, it is proof that class balance happens at multiple levels of gameplay, not simply the ideal player skill.

 

I see what you are saying, but its not quite making your point. If they were talking about increasingDecreasing a damage on an ability, lowering a cooldown, or introducing a new mechanic to the class then I would consider that balancing. All they did was make heat management easy. That really doesn't affect class balance much...it's more like a bug fix.

 

Now I don't claim to know exactly how Bioware determins how to balance classes, but it doesn't matter because you can never reach balance when you are using subjective factors. If they did that then class balance would become simply the devs opinion on how strong each class should be in any given area. This obviously would be a terrible way to balance classes since everyone is bias towards their personal experience in WZs and the classes they play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ironically Marauders can be called relatively balanced on high levels of play.

 

They suffer from the Retribution Paladin syndrome that plagued WoW from Vanilla. This class\spec had relatively simple ways of doing heavy frontloaded damage, had a 6 second stun on a fairly accessible cooldown, and cooldowns that provided immunity to movement-imparing effects, they had a 12-sec full immunity shield, and they had the ability to heal themselves.

 

Even the dumbest, most talentless RetNoob had a very good chance against the "lowest common denominator" player of another class. But it could easily be disassembled by a player who knows what they're doing. Marauder cooldowns do constitute a similar "foolproof". The difference is, however, that to learn to fight RetPaladin, you didn't need a lot of effort. With a Marauder, however, the best way is to play it yourself.

 

This.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see what you are saying, but its not quite making your point. If they were talking about increasingDecreasing a damage on an ability, lowering a cooldown, or introducing a new mechanic to the class then I would consider that balancing. All they did was make heat management easy. That really doesn't affect class balance much...it's more like a bug fix.

 

Now I don't claim to know exactly how Bioware determins how to balance classes, but it doesn't matter because you can never reach balance when you are using subjective factors. If they did that then class balance would become simply the devs opinion on how strong each class should be in any given area. This obviously would be a terrible way to balance classes since everyone is bias towards their personal experience in WZs and the classes they play.

 

I will respectfully disagree on this point as well. Numbers can help with balancing things like the damage an ability can do or even how much damage a player takes within a warzone. This type of data can be collected and investigated to determine if an ability needs to be tweaked or a DCD may need to be given to a class taking a lot of damage (why mara/sent ended up with so many). It cannot, however, take utility into account or the ability to shut down classes through tactics or the ability to control the battlefield with CC and that is why subjectivity must be used. There is no damage meter on how effective sorc CC abilities are or how effective classes become when used together (currently 3-4 smash specs on one team). Does the fact that Rage Juggs have push which resets leap, debuff to armor, lower CD on biggest rage building attack and taunts/guard enough to justify not having CoP, UR, and Force Camo? I think they could use a little more survivability compared to their mara counterparts, but that is where subjectivity comes in.

 

This is where the theorycrafting and debating side of class balance comes in and why everyone feels their class is balanced while another one is OP. Most people look at mara/sent and see the damage they can do and how effective they are 1v1, but never step back to notice that leap can't be used on command and needs to be saved for AFTER the fight starts, not to initiate battle. People underestimate the capabilities of a 4 second hard stun that allows them to get in multiple attacks while their opponent can do nothing.

 

I won't claim to know everything about every class and I certainly won't claim that every class is on equal footing at this time, but there is a widely held belief that mara/sent needs to be nerfed because of what it can do without anyone looking at what it can't do or how broken it would be with many of the changes offered. I was always an advocate for bringing mara/sent back in line, but have found that I have the tools to combat them now that I know what they are capable of and they truly aren't as strong as many believe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Every class has the potental to be "OP" ive done it with my Gaurdian my Vangaurd and my Comando. I adverage 6 solo kills a game with all 3 classes and usualy top 3 medalists. People just should stop QQ bout certain classes being OP cause anyone can be "OP" if u know your class and play it right. Currently there is only 1 mara tht can solo me 50% of the time and shes a good friends and its always a good fight. They rest of the time my vangaurd has no issues with them. Its all about useing every single ability u can and its ALL situational. When to use this and when 2 use tht kinda stuff. So my advice is to really learn your favorite class and become tht "OP" class. Edited by Mcnoober
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Firstly, God mode is for Sins and Shadows and no one else (2 abilities to basically make you immune to all damage and cc).

 

You have shown yourself to be a knowledgable poster so I won't make a big deal out of it and call you a baddie, but this is incorrect.

 

Force Shroud is the only defensive that grants stun immunity, but it also leaves the Sin vulnerable to white damage.

 

Deflection gives partial reduction just like most other defensive discs.

 

Even hitting them both at the same time does not grant the damage protection UR does. Not even close. It is very probable that you will lose a boatload health during the duration; especially if you are being focused while a Marauder with UR roing CANNOT be killed for the duration as long as he has more than like 100 hps. Oh yeah and then after 5 secs when Force Shroud wears off you are toast cause you know everyone was saving their big attack waiting for you to stop glowing. At that point the Sin is SOL, while the marauder has 3 more defensives to go.

 

Plus if a Sin does that he is SOL cause he just blew everything (maybe you have blackout if you are deception), while a marauder still has 3 more defensives to go.

 

There is really no cmparison to UR.

 

<<<<Reminder: The point of my thread is to honestly explain the capabilities of a Marauder in PVP. I think that, because of how well the class has been designed, Marauders should be used as a baseline to balance classes (in relation to DPS, Utility, and counter-tactics).

 

The problem as I see it is that no one will be honest for fear of being nerfed. Abilities are down-played, fingers pointed at other classes, and no one wants to admit that Marauders are one of the most streamlined classes in PVP. I would say that Assasins and Snipers are fairly streamlined as well. some other classes are clunky and ineffective; lacking the tools they need; especially the mercenary.

 

But I don't think anyone will agree while there is so much wool being pulled over people's eyes. Undying rage is not just a Hail Mary ability that fails to get the job done 90% of the time. Same can be said about Predation, Bloodthirst, etc, etc. There are some classes that are significantly lacking in tools like this, and some classes who have had tools takesn away from them. It's just another thing that makes PVP less fun to play that should be fixed.>>>>>

Edited by Phasersablaze
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Every class has the potental to be "OP" ive done it with my Gaurdian my Vangaurd and my Comando. I adverage 6 solo kills a game with all 3 classes and usualy top 3 medalists. People just should stop QQ bout certain classes being OP cause anyone can be "OP" if u know your class and play it right. Currently there is only 1 mara tht can solo me 50% of the time and shes a good friends and its always a good fight. They rest of the time my vangaurd has no issues with them. Its all about useing every single ability u can and its ALL situational. When to use this and when 2 use tht kinda stuff. So my advice is to really learn your favorite class and become tht "OP" class.

 

That's a nice thought (I wish it were true) but you are wrong. There are some classes (especially the Commando/Mercenary) who can not become "OP" as you put it no matter how geared or skilled they are. That's called class imbalance.

 

What you experience in an unranked WZ only shows that you are playing againts baddies. Not that your class is powerful.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Firstly, God mode is for Sins and Shadows and no one else (2 abilities to basically make you immune to all damage and cc). The most OP aspect of UR is not that they simply get to live longer and maybe get a heal or two, but because they get free time to play objectively. By that I mean that they cannot be killed while it is up and it allows them to defend an objective long past the time they should have otherwise died. This also gives them a large advantage in 1v1, but warzones are not dueling arenas.

 

Let's be honest, maras bring one true piece of utility to the table and that is whatever ability they choose to use with 30 stacks built up (predation, berserk, depends on spec and circumstance really). They can't taunt or guard (pt, sin, jugg), they can't heal or use tons of CC(sorc, merc, op), they can only kill stuff and if you let them stay on you that's what they'll do. They are just like snipers, but far more vulnerable in melee range and so they need CDs to mitigate a lot of the damage they take.

 

I'm not saying they are perfectly balanced with every other class, but a majority of complaints come from mercs and sorcs (of which I have both, no 50 maras yet) who are the main targets of maras. When (if?) mercs get their boost to escapability (just like hybrid sorcs have atm), they will have far fewer problems with melee when played correctly.

 

So in blue text, you say Sins/shadow get god mode but in the red text you describe UR being well....god mode.

 

Derp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So in blue text, you say Sins/shadow get god mode but in the red text you describe UR being well....god mode.

 

Derp.

 

Operatives and Scoundrels get a 3 second god mode as well, I have YET to hear anyone complain about it. Go ahead... complain about it buddy, I want to hear some QQ goodness out of you on this subject...

AND GOOOOOOOO!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So in blue text, you say Sins/shadow get god mode but in the red text you describe UR being well....god mode.

 

Derp.

 

Any stun, root, mezz, or decent ability to kite completely negates UR. I'm not saying it isn't a strong ability, but unlike Sins, this can only be used when you are absolutely about to die unless you want to do half the opponents work for them. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Operatives and Scoundrels get a 3 second god mode as well, I have YET to hear anyone complain about it. Go ahead... complain about it buddy, I want to hear some QQ goodness out of you on this subject...

AND GOOOOOOOO!

 

Because they get a 3 sec god mode....that's it.

 

Let's check out marauders though:

 

God mode

Invis + dmg reduction

Cloak of pain

Saber ward

Self heals

 

 

Let's keep comparing Ops vs marauders though and see who wins the OP challenge. :D

Every post when you try to defend marauders just backfires for you. At least you aren't bringing PVE into the mix to help you defend your OP class.

Edited by TridusSWTOR
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obliterate is 10 meters, and it does not interrupt - only immobilize.

 

As for "no such thing as ranged advantage" - yes there is, and it can be capitalized upon. There's also positional advantage, which I fully execute when running my Sniper (MM), Gunslinger (Engi\Engi hybrid) and Sage (bubblestun hybrid) in PvP. There are also some Ops fights that are distinctly more ranged-friendly than melee-friendly.

 

It's not black and white. Far from it.

 

no just no there is no ranged in this game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Operatives and Scoundrels get a 3 second god mode as well, I have YET to hear anyone complain about it. Go ahead... complain about it buddy, I want to hear some QQ goodness out of you on this subject...

AND GOOOOOOOO!

 

100% immunity to white, *or* yellow attacks, is, by definition, not "god mode". No class gets full immunity to both damage and CC. UR shields against all damage, Shroud protects against 99.9% CC and 100% yellow damage, Evasion provides "immunity" to white damage (they still can, theoretically, be hit by special attacks at accuracy greater than 90% and basic attacks at accuracy greater than 100%).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any stun, root, mezz, or decent ability to kite completely negates UR. I'm not saying it isn't a strong ability, but unlike Sins, this can only be used when you are absolutely about to die unless you want to do half the opponents work for them. ;)

 

I wouldn't call it god mode. Only 3 seconds and all classes have weapon based damage (some hit pretty darn hard) but eh, I can counter shroud/resilience with a nice low slash and dance around them while the effect wares off.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...