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Saw Paowee do this and figured it'd be good for the board since we have so few. Regardless of who gets the Class Representative they are going to need a thread for people to give their opinions and list their complaints. Why not get started now?

 

Operative boards are rather slow so let's see what people want now rather than be short questions when it matters.

 

 

I'll try and edit in people's questions when they're posted. This are things people have posted regardless of my personal opinions and if I agree/disagree with them. Due to nature of posts and to add votes I'll be shortening them.

 

PVE

-STEALTH DETECT: It destroys Concealment and leaves them unable to hidden strike. MiralukaJedi

-DOTS: For Lethality it is tricky to distinguish your dots from somebody elses. In addition two or more lethality hinder each other by sucking up weakening blasts that could be used for Cull. In addition, Operative's DoTs make CC difficult since they can only talent to not break their own CC. Gearedmonkey

-BACKSTAB: For weird mobs or orbs it can be hard to tell what part is the back. 360 backstab or a marker would be nice. Carlenux

 

 

PVP

-DEFENSIVE ABILITIES: Lack of defensive cooldowns. Lack of an AoE reduction talent. Azarai Syberduh

 

-HIDDEN STRIKE: Concealment heavily relies on hidden strike, but it can only be used every 90secs max. If detected or knocked out of stealth, the talent is useless. Azarai

===(Suggested changes: Give Hidden Strike a 100% crit chance or allow it to be used out of stealth or give Operatives more ways to enter stealth)

 

-ENERGY/PROLONGED COMBAT: Concealment still suffers a few energy issues and lacks the tools to finish off a target. In order to kill their opponent, Concealment has to blow all its energy. Azarai

 

-SEVER TENDON: Why is there a 30% damage increase to Sever Tendon? Is that a joke? Azarai

 

-PVP SET BONUS: 1 second dodge and 5 energy are not helpful. Increased critical chance on backstab like the PVE would be nice. Azarai

 

 

 

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http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=6535065&postcount=7

This post contains a bunch of compiled issues from various people in another thread.

Edited by MiralukaJedi
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Couple things for concealment operative that definitely needs to be addressed:

 

1. Defensive CD's. We have none. Our probe can take one decent hit (not even a full smash) and then it's game over. Besides Middle tree Juggs, we also are lacking in an AOE reduction talent that a melee character absolutely has to have in order to survive in the current meta.

 

2. Our reliance on stealth to do our main hardest hitting attack needs to be addressed. Either Hidden Strike needs to go back to an auto crit or the amount of time and how we go back into stealth needs to change. Even if we down our target a single dot/herp-derp AOE/even a taunt will keep us from re-entering unless we blow our 1.5 minute combat cloak which shouldn't have to be done. A direct attack from an enemy should be the only reason why we can't re-enter stealth OR Hidden Strike needs to be usable outside of stealth (of course without the knockdown ability if used outside of stealth).

 

3. Energy management is still meh especially if caught in a protracted fight. The loss of our self heal through the re-vamping of stim boost is actually quite missed. Sorry but the useless talent to still have the small rolling HoT every 2 minutes is just a waste of talent points. Some sort of finisher added to our talents would go a long way because at this point we have to save explosive probe to help get that last 30% off a target, and if they survive we are definitely SOL and running real low on energy by that time. Maybe revamp Hidden Strike to also count as our execute ability on a low health enemy (thus actually making it usable outside of stealth) would give us the tools we need to finally be somewhat competent in a more competitive setting because our inability to finish a target absolutely kills us.

 

4. 30% surge talent for sever tendon? Really? Please replace this with either backstab/shiv/lacerate and possibly lower the damage if it makes them become too hard hitting with the talent.

 

5. Our PvP set bonus is garbage. Please give us the PvE bonus of 15% extra crit chance on backstab, it's an absolute necessity for PvP. I don't care which we get rid of, the increase in dodge (for 1 sec which is laughable) or the extra 5 energy which is also negligible at best.

 

These are just some of the things I would like to see addressed for concealment and I'm sure some of my fellow op's will have good if not better ideas to add.

Edited by Azarai
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Couple things for concealment operative that definitely needs to be addressed:

 

1. Defensive CD's. We have none. Our probe can take one decent hit (not even a full smash) and then it's game over. Besides Middle tree Juggs, we also are lacking in an AOE reduction talent that a melee character absolutely has to have in order to survive in the current meta.

 

2. Our reliance on stealth to do our main hardest hitting attack needs to be addressed. Either Hidden Strike needs to go back to an auto crit or the amount of time and how we go back into stealth needs to change. Even if we down our target a single dot/herp-derp AOE/even a taunt will keep us from re-entering unless we blow our 1.5 minute combat cloak which shouldn't have to be done. A direct attack from an enemy should be the only reason why we can't re-enter stealth OR Hidden Strike needs to be usable outside of stealth (of course without the knockdown ability if used outside of stealth).

 

3. Energy management is still meh especially if caught in a protracted fight. The loss of our self heal through the re-vamping of stim boost is actually quite missed. Sorry but the useless talent to still have the small rolling HoT every 2 minutes is just a waste of talent points. Some sort of finisher added to our talents would go a long way because at this point we have to save explosive probe to help get that last 30% off a target, and if they survive we are definitely SOL and running real low on energy by that time. Maybe revamp Hidden Strike to also count as our execute ability on a low health enemy (thus actually making it usable outside of stealth) would give us the tools we need to finally be somewhat competent in a more competitive setting because our inability to finish a target absolutely kills us.

 

4. 30% surge talent for sever tendon? Really? Please replace this with either backstab/shiv/lacerate and possibly lower the damage if it makes them become too hard hitting with the talent.

 

5. Our PvP set bonus is garbage. Please give us the PvE bonus of 15% extra crit chance on backstab, it's an absolute necessity for PvP. I don't care which we get rid of, the increase in dodge (for 1 sec which is laughable) or the extra 5 energy which is also negligible at best.

 

These are just some of the things I would like to see addressed for concealment and I'm sure some of my fellow op's will have good if not better ideas to add.

 

PVE's actually got changed to 15% chance on shiv which hurts even more. But yeah, I fully agree with you on pretty much all of that.

 

Speaking of PVE, I want to toss out the well known and dreaded "Stealth detect". I expressed this in another thread, but for sake of combining things here Concealment is unable to fight a lot of bosses. It relies on hidden strike and so many bosses have a 30m stealth detect so that not only is the Operative kicked out of stealth, but he pulls and pisses off the tank. Fights thus require the Operative to not go in stealth (costing hidden strike) OR require them to start 30m away and run into combat.

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Just noting here that I'm doing summaries in the post. If you notice something listed incorrectly feel free to comment.

 

If you support a listed claim, feel free to note support and I'll put an extra name beside it. This will allow us to see how many people care about specific problems and allow us to get a general consensus. While the class representative might not go based on the majority (depends on who is selected) it at least allows them to look briefly and go

 

"Hey, 5 people care about this issue and have added their name to it. Perhaps I should consider asking about that."

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PVP set bonuses are very lackluster in general. Enforcer set is bad for DPS but decent for healers, Medic set bonus is bad for everyone, Sniper set bonus is interesting but situational. If they changed the Enforcer/DPS set bonus to be better for DPS (return it to the crit bonus it used to be, or something) many healers using it would cry foul, and if they changed the Medic set bonus to increase healing then the 2 people using it for I-don't-know-what would also be disappointed. Edited by xhii
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Hey fellow Operatives! Been playing an op since launch and since 2.0 i have been doing a lot of PVE so just thought i would throw out some PVE concerns i have.

 

1) For Lethality dps it is very hard to distinguish your own dots from some other op/sniper who uses Corrosive Dart/Grenade.

 

2) Lethality issue again, when using weakening blast it will consume a charge if another op/sniper uses Corrosive Dart/Grenade. This becomes an issue because their dart/grenade may not be as strong as your own and it may prevent your from getting of more powerful cull/weakening blast combos.

 

3)Lethality again, When moving on to tougher raids like HM/NM S&V CC is required for passing the trash without wiping. If CC's go off then a Lethality op is worthless. the only thing the op can do is Corrosive Dart and cull. This wouldn't be much of a problem if there wasn't a skill that prevented op's dots from breaking CC, but this skill is only applies to the ops own CC and not those of the other group members.

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We had a decent discussion about (mainly) Concealment recently, so I'm going to quote some relevant posts from that thread here. Spoiler tags as it'll be very long. Full thread here.

 

 

DPS isn't the main problem, it's more that Concealment relies too heavily on stealth, and both specs are too squishy for what's effectively a melee class.

 

This x100. Compare our damage mitigation with that of a deception 'sin or a marauder. Not only do both have a passive 30% reduction to AOE damage taken, both have up-as-often-as-not 25%/20% damage reduction. It's not like these are oh-**** abilities -- these are "entering combat might as well turn this on" abilities.

 

That alone disqualifies dps ops from serious pvp. They take literally twice as much damage from lolsmash.

 

I had the impression that operatives are not supposed to be not squishy.I though we are supposed to go in take out a guy quickly and vanish out of sight.

squishy + huge burst(biggest in the game) and ok sustainable damage+ stealth is supposed to be the stealth mele class in all rpgs.If we get more survivability we are going to be too much like sith assassins,which i don't think is the operative class concept.

I mean i may be wrong in this,if we are supposed to stand toe to toe in a long fight ,then my mistake.

 

This is how Concealment works right now, and while that may be fine in regular warzones against average teams, this is a problem in high-level, competitive play. You can contribute to bursting one enemy target down, but if you're not successful within about 10 seconds, you're forced to either blow your vanish (bad), disengage and wait until you get out of combat (bad) or die (bad). And even if you do manage to successfully kill your target, you'll be stuck in combat and forced to blow your vanish or disengage until you drop combat (or die).

 

In addition to survivability buffs, Concealment needs some kind of mechanic that decreases stealth reliance in PvP. Perhaps something like if an enemy dies and you've contributed to killing it, you get a proc that lets you re-stealth even if in combat, or use Hidden Strike without the stealth requirement.

 

Lethality does not rely on stealth to be effective, but can't stand up to focus fire the way a Jugg, Marauder or Assassin can.

 

 

Here's some interesting ones.

 

1. Hidden Strike+Acid Blade = Auto-Crit. And something similar at the top of Lethality. If they think that is too OP, then only make it auto-crit if the acid blade dot doesn't already exist.

2. Immunte to AoE Taunt and and AoE CC while stealthed.

3. Able to stealth if no enemy has LoS. (Might be pretty OP)

4. Force Cloak cooldown shortens for each DoT crit.

 

1. While this would certainly be nice, I would be content with increasing the magnitude of Concealed Attacks (make it 10/20 or 15/30 if feeling generous). An auto-crit would devalue Concealed Attacks, or force a redesign, so I think the devs would be less reluctant to simply buff it. While we're at it, Waylay could use some love (or even better, roll it into the base Backstab and replace it with a new talent, more on this in a moment..).

 

2. I'd like to take this a step further. This was suggested by someone else in a thread on the Scoundrel forum, but I thought it was an interesting idea and worth re-posting here: What if our stealth was not broken by AoE damage?

We'd still take damage from abilities like Force in Balance and Mortar Volley, but we'd remain in stealth until spotted and directly attacked. This would also increase the tactical value of Stealth Scan, as it would be the only GTAOE capable of popping Concealment Operatives out of stealth. This could be rolled into Shadow Operative Elite.

 

3. I've been thinking of ways to allow Concealment Operatives to re-stealth without dropping combat, too. I'm not sure if they have the tech to tie it to LOS, but I considered allowing us to re-stealth after a successful kill that we contributed to. Of course, this could be "exploited" by spreading dots and spamming Frag Grenade, allowing you to frequently stealth out in combat, and I'm not sure how to solve that. I thought about Killing Blows, but that does not seem ideal, either... maybe a proc that allows Hidden Strike to be used out of stealth whenever you get a kill?

This could replace Waylay.

 

4. I like this. Given how reliant Concealment Operatives are on Stealth, it'd be nice if there was a way to knock a little extra time off the Cloaking Screen cooldown. Perhaps a simple -1s on incoming damage of any kind? May have to be limited to proc every X second to make it balanced, but there's potential here. A replacement for Revitalizers, perhaps?

 

In addition, I would not mind getting the 30% AoE damage reduction Assassins get from Fade added to our Ghost skill. Fade currently has 3 benefits, while Ghost has 2, so I think this would be balanced (I'd be fine with a different but equivalent survivability buff too if copying the Assassin one is deemed too unimaginative).

 

Thoughts?

 

 

I have since then thought more about a proc that would allow Hidden Strike to be used out of stealth, and considering how few kills you typically see in ranked, I think the best and simplest solution would be to add a high-tier talent that gives Shiv a chance to proc out-of-stealth Hidden Strike.

Edited by Gondolindhrim
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Yes dps ops absolutely need the 30% AOE damage mitigation and at least one more big buff to defensive cooldowns. One possibility is to simply lower the cooldown on shield probe and evasion. Either a flat x seconds off or an x seconds off each time you take damage. If BW wants to maintain the idea that dps ops are supposed to use their heals rather than mitigation for staying power, then ops need ways to proc faster/cheaper/instant/free heals. Lethality already has one way to do that but more would be nice. Tie the heal procs to melee attacks and either give dps ops a second cc break or higher defense when cc'd so that they can't just be stunned and annihilated. Edited by Syberduh
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Yes dps ops absolutely need the 30% AOE damage mitigation and at least one more big buff to defensive cooldowns. One possibility is to simply lower the cooldown on shield probe and evasion. Either a flat x seconds off or an x seconds off each time you take damage. If BW wants to maintain the idea that dps ops are supposed to use their heals rather than mitigation for staying power, then ops need ways to proc faster/cheaper/instant/free heals. Lethality already has one way to do that but more would be nice. Tie the heal procs to melee attacks and either give dps ops a second cc break or higher defense when cc'd so that they can't just be stunned and annihilated.

 

Added your signature to the defensive cooldowns section since Operative defensive abilities seems to be what you're supporting. Let me know if mistaken.

 

On a side note it seems like we're all mostly in agreement.

-Defensive cooldowns are poor.

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Yeah defensive cooldowns/mitigation are definitely what dps ops need most.

Totally agree. It's also more challenging to "fix", since the only way I think it'd really work out is by inventing a new defensive cooldown that's unique, effective and still balanced. When you look at the defensive cooldowns of a Marauder, no amount of Evasion, Shield Probe or self-healing buffs alone will make Operatives come close.

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for PvE, the stealth detection is meh, never actually find u stealth if tank runs first, neither does most of the aoe dmg break the stealth.... for the Dots,, is just the same with Sorc madness + sorc heals.... same problem, and with everyones dot, agree is something they have to fix, but its not operative specific, Also once u have played enough your op, u know when to re dot even without watching the dot, its a good fix, but after all, not operative specific.

 

something they really have to do, is giving round / weird mobs, 360% backstab availability, stuff like TFB portals, anomalies, irregularities, are hard to know *** is its back, and most of the time it just gives red text saying u cant hit, for anyone playing good OP dps in nim tfb, u would know Backstab is basically one of the few stuff u can use there without hindering your rotation / energy.

 

nothing else in mind for PvE TBH, they are really good right now, have the whole package, if they planning to do Ops bosses like nim SaV... i would suggest to give Ops a wannabe knock back or an ability that roots / different stun, at least for healers... wont spoil, when someone get there, u will understand.

 

PvP i would think for concealment, ghost talent should allow HS to be used off stealth while the speed buff is on, without being able to knock them flat in the face (talent should only work while HS from stealth), that should fix the whole problem there...

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Totally agree. It's also more challenging to "fix", since the only way I think it'd really work out is by inventing a new defensive cooldown that's unique, effective and still balanced. When you look at the defensive cooldowns of a Marauder, no amount of Evasion, Shield Probe or self-healing buffs alone will make Operatives come close.

 

would really appreciate if people label PvE or PvP their comments, as for what i read there, if its PvE, u cant be more wrong... if its PvP i would have to agree with you.

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for PvE, the stealth detection is meh, never actually find u stealth if tank runs first, neither does most of the aoe dmg break the stealth.... for the Dots,, is just the same with Sorc madness + sorc heals.... same problem, and with everyones dot, agree is something they have to fix, but its not operative specific, Also once u have played enough your op, u know when to re dot even without watching the dot, its a good fix, but after all, not operative specific.

 

something they really have to do, is giving round / weird mobs, 360% backstab availability, stuff like TFB portals, anomalies, irregularities, are hard to know *** is its back, and most of the time it just gives red text saying u cant hit, for anyone playing good OP dps in nim tfb, u would know Backstab is basically one of the few stuff u can use there without hindering your rotation / energy.

 

nothing else in mind for PvE TBH, they are really good right now, have the whole package, if they planning to do Ops bosses like nim SaV... i would suggest to give Ops a wannabe knock back or an ability that roots / different stun, at least for healers... wont spoil, when someone get there, u will understand.

 

PvP i would think for concealment, ghost talent should allow HS to be used off stealth while the speed buff is on, without being able to knock them flat in the face (talent should only work while HS from stealth), that should fix the whole problem there...

 

I've not really had a problem with DoTs due to rotation, but that's from a PVE sense. As you said, once you get the hang of it you just know when to reapply. However, I'm trying to list whatever anyone says regardless of my opinions on it.

 

The round things though I could say is about the same. Enemies like that I tend to get the hang of and know where to stand. If it is an enemy that attacks a specific person, I just stand opposite tank. If an enemy that just stands there, usually behind its starting position works. However, I can agree that it can be a pain at times (mainly if someone pulls, etc). Either way, I'll add this to first post.

 

As for stealth detect, I was more talking bosses with Stealth Detect (usually only flashpoints so not really a big deal, but still a pain) to the point where everyone else can stand 15m away and be fine. If your stealthed and 15m away it pulls. It isn't vital since its mostly just flashpoints, but it is still annoying and makes me glad I'm lethality not concealment.

 

would really appreciate if people label PvE or PvP their comments, as for what i read there, if its PvE, u cant be more wrong... if its PvP i would have to agree with you.

 

Pretty sure they were PVP. Almost every comment is PVP :p At same time, I couldn't say I agree or disagree. Our defensive cooldowns are pretty crappy, but at same time shield probe tends to do it for the few times when you're going to take damage. Most damage in PVE is avoidable and the little that isn't shield probe isn't. But again, probably a PVP comment since shield probe and evasion are terrible in PVP <.<

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I've not really had a problem with DoTs due to rotation, but that's from a PVE sense. As you said, once you get the hang of it you just know when to reapply. However, I'm trying to list whatever anyone says regardless of my opinions on it.

 

The round things though I could say is about the same. Enemies like that I tend to get the hang of and know where to stand. If it is an enemy that attacks a specific person, I just stand opposite tank. If an enemy that just stands there, usually behind its starting position works. However, I can agree that it can be a pain at times (mainly if someone pulls, etc). Either way, I'll add this to first post.

 

As for stealth detect, I was more talking bosses with Stealth Detect (usually only flashpoints so not really a big deal, but still a pain) to the point where everyone else can stand 15m away and be fine. If your stealthed and 15m away it pulls. It isn't vital since its mostly just flashpoints, but it is still annoying and makes me glad I'm lethality not concealment.

 

 

 

Pretty sure they were PVP. Almost every comment is PVP :p At same time, I couldn't say I agree or disagree. Our defensive cooldowns are pretty crappy, but at same time shield probe tends to do it for the few times when you're going to take damage. Most damage in PVE is avoidable and the little that isn't shield probe isn't. But again, probably a PVP comment since shield probe and evasion are terrible in PVP <.<

 

right was just saying its not an op problem, is a whole Swtor engine problem, the dot thing is from release with all classes >.< it sucks... about round things, rly hard to know depending on fight... agree on the rest... shield probe in lethality is raelly good, people just underestimate it... it absorbs around 5-6k every 30 secs... thats 10 times min in a normal 5 minutes fight :)... evasion is a tanking OP 5 secs :)... and off heals, people who play dps OP and dont help with off heals in hard fights, are bad... i could do 2550 dps in styrak NiM and 300 HPs to keep certain people up in certain time, for PvE its not a problem.... but for PvP omg those CDs does suck lolol

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right was just saying its not an op problem, is a whole Swtor engine problem, the dot thing is from release with all classes >.< it sucks... about round things, rly hard to know depending on fight... agree on the rest... shield probe in lethality is raelly good, people just underestimate it... it absorbs around 5-6k every 30 secs... thats 10 times min in a normal 5 minutes fight :)... evasion is a tanking OP 5 secs :)... and off heals, people who play dps OP and dont help with off heals in hard fights, are bad... i could do 2550 dps in styrak NiM and 300 HPs to keep certain people up in certain time, for PvE its not a problem.... but for PvP omg those CDs does suck lolol

 

I actually am REALLY glad to hear that you toss off-heals too. I've seen some of your parses and numbers (You and Dizella) and your both the reason I went "Alright damn it, I'm going to get this Operative kicking ***." Worked too, one of the DPS I run with has given up beating me and is now struggling with the other for second place. Second place just goes "Congrats you won again. **** you." I never noticed off-heals from skimming parses, but I'll be honest I always felt a bit upset when I tossed some heals and then went "goodbye DPS...I won't place in the statistics section"

 

Shield probe I've found to be fairly helpful in PVE. Not amazing, but good enough if the tank does his job. Evasion I've found situationally useful due to the limit on damage type.

 

Now I just wish my people would get started on NIM S+V <.< I'm curious why you need a knockback >.>

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  • 2 weeks later...

PvP - Concealment only

 

1. Increase Shield Probe absorption by a reasonable amount, enough to call it a defensive cooldown

2. Hidden Strike -should have 100% crit from stealth

3. Make Kolto Infusion an instant heal like Lethality, this can proc when Collateral Strike procs. Tie this ability into Tactical Opportunity

4. Allow Hidden Strike to be used out of stealth, or buff overall damage of our abilities to give us enough burst to down a target quickly.

5. Energy Management is still hard, considering how long it takes to kill something.

 

A lot of these changes would definitely be a start to balancing Operatives and making them a viable DPS class, and bring them on par with Sins. Considering how hard Sins can hit, I wouldn't mind an overall DPS buff, but the overall agreement is that something needs to be done with Hidden Strike and our defensive cooldowns need to be looked at.

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PvP - Concealment only

 

1. Increase Shield Probe absorption by a reasonable amount, enough to call it a defensive cooldown

2. Hidden Strike -should have 100% crit from stealth

3. Make Kolto Infusion an instant heal like Lethality, this can proc when Collateral Strike procs. Tie this ability into Tactical Opportunity

4. Allow Hidden Strike to be used out of stealth, or buff overall damage of our abilities to give us enough burst to down a target quickly.

5. Energy Management is still hard, considering how long it takes to kill something.

 

A lot of these changes would definitely be a start to balancing Operatives and making them a viable DPS class, and bring them on par with Sins. Considering how hard Sins can hit, I wouldn't mind an overall DPS buff, but the overall agreement is that something needs to be done with Hidden Strike and our defensive cooldowns need to be looked at.

1. Lethality already has exactly this, I'd rather see something unique for Concealment (not to mention that it wouldn't be enough either way). Other than the obvious 30% AoE damage reduction, I'd like to see a substantial damage reduction buff (something like -40% damage taken) on Sneak or Shield Probe, and a Defense buff added to Calculated Frenzy (2% or 3% per point).

2. Agreed, not much more to say.

3. Like point one, I'd rather see something new than a mechanic that already exists. Perhaps a way to reset the cooldown on Shield Probe? "Using Evasion will instantly finish the cooldown of Shield Probe" or similar (could be interesting if the 1s Evasion attached to Exfiltrate worked as well).

4. Agreed, I'm thinking something along the lines of "Shiv has a 40% chance to make your Hidden Strike free and usable out of stealth".

5. Agreed, I'd start by either reducing the energy cost of Lacerate back to its original value, or reducing the internal cooldown of Culling.

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1. Lethality already has exactly this, I'd rather see something unique for Concealment (not to mention that it wouldn't be enough either way). Other than the obvious 30% AoE damage reduction, I'd like to see a substantial damage reduction buff (something like -40% damage taken) on Sneak or Shield Probe, and a Defense buff added to Calculated Frenzy (2% or 3% per point).

2. Agreed, not much more to say.

3. Like point one, I'd rather see something new than a mechanic that already exists. Perhaps a way to reset the cooldown on Shield Probe? "Using Evasion will instantly finish the cooldown of Shield Probe" or similar (could be interesting if the 1s Evasion attached to Exfiltrate worked as well).

4. Agreed, I'm thinking something along the lines of "Shiv has a 40% chance to make your Hidden Strike free and usable out of stealth".

5. Agreed, I'd start by either reducing the energy cost of Lacerate back to its original value, or reducing the internal cooldown of Culling.

 

hidden strike off stealth, is OP, its worst than smash jugs, would be worst than Ssins lol... maybe sneak could trigger hidden strike off stealth without procing jarring strike.... reality is, any small changes to everything you are saying dps wise would unbalance PvE too much, they might just need to make something that make OPs invincible 1v1 like Ssins, but we dont have CDs like recklessness on ssins, so i see almost no room for anything there :S

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hidden strike off stealth, is OP, its worst than smash jugs, would be worst than Ssins lol... maybe sneak could trigger hidden strike off stealth without procing jarring strike....

I don't think it would be OP, honestly. Smash still hits harder on a 9s cooldown compared to 12s for Hidden Strike, and is AoE. Thundering Blast deals similar damage and has a 9s cooldown as well, but is ranged. Honestly, I think this would be pretty balanced in ranked PvP.

 

reality is, any small changes to everything you are saying dps wise would unbalance PvE too much, they might just need to make something that make OPs invincible 1v1 like Ssins, but we dont have CDs like recklessness on ssins, so i see almost no room for anything there :S

I do run HM and NiM Ops on my Operative as well, so I am taking PvE implications into consideration. Truth is, Concealment is the lower DPS spec, so it wouldn't hurt to buff them a bit. Suddenly gaining access to an auto-crit Hidden Strike would be a massive buff for sure, but if Concealment would then turn out to overperform in PvE (and I still kind of doubt they'd be better than Marauders), it wouldn't be too hard to adjust the damage of for example Acid Blade or Corrosive Dart (increase its damage in Lethality to make up for it) to compensate.

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I don't think it would be OP, honestly. Smash still hits harder on a 9s cooldown compared to 12s for Hidden Strike, and is AoE. Thundering Blast deals similar damage and has a 9s cooldown as well, but is ranged. Honestly, I think this would be pretty balanced in ranked PvP.

 

 

I do run HM and NiM Ops on my Operative as well, so I am taking PvE implications into consideration. Truth is, Concealment is the lower DPS spec, so it wouldn't hurt to buff them a bit. Suddenly gaining access to an auto-crit Hidden Strike would be a massive buff for sure, but if Concealment would then turn out to overperform in PvE (and I still kind of doubt they'd be better than Marauders), it wouldn't be too hard to adjust the damage of for example Acid Blade or Corrosive Dart (increase its damage in Lethality to make up for it) to compensate.

 

i think we are bringing two interesting points of view here :) which is nice, but i still have to dissagree with you... smash vs KB, hes done, smash VS roll + sprint out... hes done, just have to know when/how to move, not saying i am a master pvp, but if u are a healer, really easy to cleanse at least 2/3 stacks from his force crush too, way too many ways to avoid it.... TB is a long cast, interrupt and hes done, yet its a hard hitting spell, thing is u can cast with interruptions + interrupts + LoS... you are talking a bout a 7K Crit hitter, instant, grants TA, grants Acid blade (5k dot) + 2sec stun KB on target, completely unavoidable, only thing that can avoid is shroud (tech).... idk maybe increase CD 3-6 seconds and allow use out of stealth when something happens, or with sneak, like i said, MAYBE its something useful.

 

on the other comment, dummy part REAL concealment vs REAL lethality is like 50-80 behind, now Acid blade lethality is like 160 behind... this of course comparing my parses... my leth is doing 3250 with acid blade... without its around 3150-3180... while concealment its 3050-3100 over 5 minutes parse... now comparing to ALL other classes, both specs are ahead, snipers beating us because of armor reduction... marauders have like 2 person beating conceal numbers, rest are around the same, considering they do BT once or twice a fight which grant them probably initial burst of 100-200 + dps in their numbers, u can say yeah thats a mara ability to use, reality is my acid blade is MY acid blade, their BT is everyones BT, in raid, ill get it too, so its unfair to compare :). you make those changes to HS and ill be parsing 3500 easily lol

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Firstly, most of this comes from PvP experience with concealment. In PvE I am a healer but I occasionally dabble in DPS and that is only for SM ops.

 

I find that concealment has a couple of problems and I shall flesh them out below:

Reliance on Hidden Strike ie. stealth

Substandard burst if you get unlucky with crits

Energy managment is very luck based

Need to stand behind a target

Revitalisers

 

Reliance on Hidden Strike

Any concealment PvP'er knows that bane of getting kicked out of stealth by a random AoE ability. Not being able to get of a hidden strike, which gives you a TA, a 2 seconds stun and a good amount of damage, is a huge dent to our damage potential, so if we lose that, the fight is usually lost. I propose that middle tree should get a buff to shield probe, that if it absorbs damage when you are in cloak, that damage will not break you out. In addition, shield probe should get it's strength buffed when in stealth, so a random Smash doesn't break us out. This means that an enemy Force in Balance won't accidentally hit you and force you out of stealth. In addition, it would be good for all those pesky bosses in PvE that open with an AoE ability.

 

Substandard burst if you get unlucky with crits

A concealment operative who gets a couple of crits in their opener can be devastating, however the chances of that happening are once in a blue moon. Acid blade should give a buff to the crit chance of Hidden Strike and Backstab if it is applied. It should be a large buff to Hidden Strike (eg. 60%) so it is an almost guaranteed crit and a smaller Backstab (eg.30%). To compensate for this, the damage delt by the Acid Blade DoT would have to be reduced, but it would give the class a bit more burst.

 

Energy managment is very luck based

In concealment, a good chunk of you energy management comes from proccing a collateral strike off Laceration. If you get lucky with procs, then the energy management will be good. If you are unlucky, then don't expect to be doing much damage any time soon. Maybe it is just my me doing a bad rotation or something, but I only get good energy management when the stars align. As a though, maybe Calculated Frenzy could be changed so it gives an energy regen boost, along with alacrity. In addition to that, the energy return on collateral strike should be changed to be 5%/10% of max energy instead of just 5/10, to give some value to the 4 piece enforcers set bonus (5 extra energy).

 

Need to stand behind a target

This is mainly a QoL complaint, however the need to stand behind someone to activate a skill is one of the most ridiculous I have seen. If we have aggro on a PvE mob, why shouldn't we be able to execute what is arguably one of the most important moves in our rotation. Also for PvP, if you activate Backstab and then the person turns to face you, the move will be cancelled. The animation will play, but no damage goes out and it is not on cooldown. I see no real reason for this to be in the game, as it adds absolutly nothing to gameplay.

 

Revitalisers

Great skill tree move pre 2.0, absolutely useless now. A tiny heal once every 2 minutes is laughable. Take it out and add in the 30% AoE damage reduction that people have been asking for.

 

IMO, the other 2 skill trees are in excellent shape right now and need no changes.

 

Well maybe the energy cost on Kolto Probe needs to be nerfed a bit, but you didn't hear it from me ;)

Edited by jack__
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Firstly, most of this comes from PvP experience with concealment. In PvE I am a healer but I occasionally dabble in DPS and that is only for SM ops.

 

I find that concealment has a couple of problems and I shall flesh them out below:

Reliance on Hidden Strike ie. stealth

Substandard burst if you get unlucky with crits

Energy managment is very luck based

Need to stand behind a target

Revitalisers

 

Reliance on Hidden Strike

Any concealment PvP'er knows that bane of getting kicked out of stealth by a random AoE ability. Not being able to get of a hidden strike, which gives you a TA, a 2 seconds stun and a good amount of damage, is a huge dent to our damage potential, so if we lose that, the fight is usually lost. I propose that middle tree should get a buff to shield probe, that if it absorbs damage when you are in cloak, that damage will not break you out. In addition, shield probe should get it's strength buffed when in stealth, so a random Smash doesn't break us out. This means that an enemy Force in Balance won't accidentally hit you and force you out of stealth. In addition, it would be good for all those pesky bosses in PvE that open with an AoE ability.

 

Substandard burst if you get unlucky with crits

A concealment operative who gets a couple of crits in their opener can be devastating, however the chances of that happening are once in a blue moon. Acid blade should give a buff to the crit chance of Hidden Strike and Backstab if it is applied. It should be a large buff to Hidden Strike (eg. 60%) so it is an almost guaranteed crit and a smaller Backstab (eg.30%). To compensate for this, the damage delt by the Acid Blade DoT would have to be reduced, but it would give the class a bit more burst.

 

Energy managment is very luck based

In concealment, a good chunk of you energy management comes from proccing a collateral strike off Laceration. If you get lucky with procs, then the energy management will be good. If you are unlucky, then don't expect to be doing much damage any time soon. Maybe it is just my me doing a bad rotation or something, but I only get good energy management when the stars align. As a though, maybe Calculated Frenzy could be changed so it gives an energy regen boost, along with alacrity. In addition to that, the energy return on collateral strike should be changed to be 5%/10% of max energy instead of just 5/10, to give some value to the 4 piece enforcers set bonus (5 extra energy).

 

Need to stand behind a target

This is mainly a QoL complaint, however the need to stand behind someone to activate a skill is one of the most ridiculous I have seen. If we have aggro on a PvE mob, why shouldn't we be able to execute what is arguably one of the most important moves in our rotation. Also for PvP, if you activate Backstab and then the person turns to face you, the move will be cancelled. The animation will play, but no damage goes out and it is not on cooldown. I see no real reason for this to be in the game, as it adds absolutly nothing to gameplay.

 

Revitalisers

Great skill tree move pre 2.0, absolutely useless now. A tiny heal once every 2 minutes is laughable. Take it out and add in the 30% AoE damage reduction that people have been asking for.

 

IMO, the other 2 skill trees are in excellent shape right now and need no changes.

 

Well maybe the energy cost on Kolto Probe needs to be nerfed a bit, but you didn't hear it from me ;)

 

agree on everything, everything is true in both sides, pvp and pve, thing is whats the fix? everything people says in my opinion would make it overpower in pvp and destroy dps in pve, so would need to get to a "real" fix, more than "i want to crit + hdiden strike everytime i want" >.<

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