but i use assault on them to build rage....

 

and have consuption off the gcd, or maybe half the time of a normal attack. I'm cool with the idea of spending health to restore force, but having several gcds of not outputting any healing is not good.

Your assault would be better used on someone who you can actually damage.

Consumption off the GCD? I would agree with that, but he wants to take Resurgance off the GCD, which I feel would actually be the wrong way to go. Resurgance actually heals people, and buffs our other heals. I feel that it is worth a GCD maybe a shorter Cooldown on it, but keep it respecting the GCD.

1. TYVM! CONFIRMED on the SORC side as well on BUG for Force Regen. I see the 2.00% (Force Weaver Skill Tree) in Alacrity under Skills/Buff's, but under Force Regen it's not showing up as your picture shows as well. Hitting Polarity shift does bump Force Regen ## as expected, but the 2% does not add to Force Regen. Most likely amounts to a poor increase because the 20% buff from Polarity Shift grants ~1.6 points/sec Regen for 10 seconds or 16 Force points. So that missing 2% would be 0.16 pts/sec = 1 points every 6.25 seconds = 9.6 points every minute. (Still a poor return even if they fix it)

Thank you for confirming. If you wouldn't mind doing so on the bug post I just made, I think it would help:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=667393

1.

2. Agree with Tank healing needing more in 16's content. I'm not sure how others are calling "Regen" Good and solo healing tanks in 16 man, but I know for my 16-Man NiM RAIDS it is FAR from realistically feasible to not be half dead most the time while using consumption. So I'm not sure if you are talking only 16 SM / 16 HM content (Cause I'd agree w/you 100% then), but NiM 16 man is WAY different and very nasty for healers than 8 man NiM content. It brings out the very issue only "Mildly" visable in SM/HM Content on Force Regen being very poor. What about DW 16man NiM? You have to purge folks a lot and that drains 15 force as well. (FYI - Yes, I actually do 16 man NiM Sorc healing on my server and we have a couple server 2nd & 3rd titles on some of that content.) [/Quote]

 

No, I'm talking 16 NiM. We went in this week, with 4 healers into 16 NiM TFB and 4 healed up to Kephess. Our healers did fine, with a merc/sorc tank healing combo; one assigned to each. Especially if you have an op you shouldn't be near dead from consumption. Hell, as long as your resurgence yourself on rotation with your tank and keep a constant bubble on yourself you should be gaining back all the life you use on consumption. Not one of our sorcs said anything about force regen, and in the fight i noticed no more force issues that usual. And the usual force issues being from the healer who lets his rotation get sloppy mid fight always. It REALLY could just be though that my tanks and dps take less damage, or our comp allows for different reviv placement which cleans up more raid healing.

 

Obviously in 16s there is more damage going out, but saying that you're half dead and its not feasible means that's its an across the board problem, I'm telling you it isn't. & if you cant assign an tank/sorc combo, one of them is doing it wrong, because it IS doable, or someone is slacking somewhere else, be it DPS taking unnecessary damage or healers not being efficient.

 

It's back to "mathematically impossible". Just because someone cant do it, doesn't mean its broken.

 

Also, Nibbon, sorry if im coming across as a b****. Adamezie (i have no idea what he goes by in game) assures me you're pretty awesome and i should be nicer, lol.

It's back to "mathematically impossible". Just because someone cant do it, doesn't mean its broken.

 

Also, Nibbon, sorry if im coming across as a b****. Adamezie (i have no idea what he goes by in game) assures me you're pretty awesome and i should be nicer, lol.

Lol, np, you aren't. I have no problems when someone argues passionately about something as long as they know what they are talking about.. And I happen to agree with you here. Merc/Sorc tank healing combo works fine, the only thing I wouldn't want to do is a sorc/sorc healing combo. Even that should be doable, but you might need a third healer to toss a patch heal once in a while (which most good raid healers will do anyway).

I'm just talking about what I view is easiest. Just because I think something is easier doesn't mean I think the alternatives are impossible or even bad I don't expect you to have read everything I've said in this thread or other threads, but I think sage/sorc healers are in a pretty good spot overall - the only thing that I think would help is an emergency heal (the sub 30% life heal I am talking about) - which is not needed, it would just be nice.

No, I'm talking 16 NiM. Especially if you have an op you shouldn't be near dead from consumption. It REALLY could just be though that my tanks and dps take less damage, or our comp allows for different reviv placement which cleans up more raid healing.

 

It's back to "mathematically impossible". Just because someone cant do it, doesn't mean its broken.

Yes I totally agree. Placement is partially an issue I suspect. We have Sorc/Op/Merc combo and it seems to be the best balance for 16 NiM depending on fight. Tanks tanking less damage might be an issue. I know they are pulling equal amount of damage so it's not that. I'll try more self Resurgence/Sorc Buble on myself and see if that helps. I usually dip into my healing circle a tad when low. I did confirm the Force Regen issue in the system is missing for the 2% skills that Casting has.

Yes I totally agree. Placement is partially an issue I suspect. We have Sorc/Op/Merc combo and it seems to be the best balance for 16 NiM depending on fight. Tanks tanking less damage might be an issue. I know they are pulling equal amount of damage so it's not that. I'll try more self Resurgence/Sorc Buble on myself and see if that helps. I usually dip into my healing circle a tad when low. I did confirm the Force Regen issue in the system is missing for the 2% skills that Casting has.

I mentioned it earlier, but gearing as well. There is two statting metas out there as far as tanking is concerned, endurance/defense vs. high absorb. So i can totally see how a sorc couldn't burst heal a tank who is super spikey but has 46k health. With high absorb its less health, but the way damage comes in is more manageable.

Also, what two tanks are you using. Like, there is no way on earth i would raid with 2 sins, soooo spikey. Sorcs naturally align really well with juggs, Op/PT, and Sin/Merc, imo, simply based on the way those classes heal/take damage.

Thank you for confirming. If you wouldn't mind doing so on the bug post I just made, I think it would help:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=667393

OH and I did one better! Took a screen shot of my MERC Healer and OP Healer for comparison. BOOM! They both have that showing up correctly. LOL

Screen shot of Sorc Healer: http://imgur.com/q10fRue I've circled areas of concern in RED.

Screen shot of an OP HEALER & MERC HEALER in which the Skill's are included in the Regen Rate that is missing from Sage/Sorc. http://imgur.com/8dz265O I've circled areas of concern in RED.

OH and I did one better! Took a screen shot of my MERC Healer and OP Healer for comparison. BOOM! They both have that showing up correctly. LOL

 

Screen shot of Sorc Healer: http://imgur.com/q10fRue I've circled areas of concern in RED.

 

Screen shot of an OP HEALER & MERC HEALER in which the Skill's are included in the Regen Rate that is missing from Sage/Sorc. http://imgur.com/8dz265O I've circled areas of concern in RED.

you da man

this problem has bothered me so long, i was just too lazy to take the pics and post til now ;p

You have to consider the implications of those cooldowns versus other defensive abilities. Force mend and constant static barrier maintenance consume a lot of globals that you could otherwise use be doing damage. The majority of the defensive mitigation cooldowns within swotr are not affected by global cooldown and so there is no damage lose from using them. Furthermore these cooldowns are dramatically less effective in pvp due to the 35% healing debuff trama and the mara/sniper healing debuff. Perhaps those two heals might help you in a raid but in a warzone they are significantly less effective. Static barrier and force mend simply do not compare to raw damage mitigation when being focused in pvp.

 

It is worth noting however that these two abilities are considerably stronger in corruption spec than either dps spec.

Meant to write something like this myself, because it's the issue that bothers me most. Sages/Sorcerers are the only advanced class whose cooldowns force them to choose between dps and survival. And with pretty high dps requirements to beat enrage timers of NiM ops bosses it's not one I like to make.

My idea would be to slightly change Force Barrier. If you activate it and you stay still it works same as before, but if you break it by activating another ability in first 5 seconds of the channel you keep the its effects for next 5 seconds while free to dps/heal. Movement could still remove the effects.

I have an idea!

First of all Ceazare makes some good points with sorc/sage you are stuck choosing either dps or survivability. I also think the idea of being able to use abilities within the first 5 seconds of force barrier is a good idea. It would finally give sorcs a defensive cd. I think the majority of us can agree force barrier needs some work done to it. I think we can almost all agree force management (for madness at least) needs to be improved as well. Now here's the idea I came up with: What if they made it where you regenerate force significantly while channeling force barrier? I don't think that would be overpowered and personally I can think of tons of times in the past where if I could have replenished force I wouldn't have been forced to fall back.

What if they made it where you regenerate force significantly while channeling force barrier? I don't think that would be overpowered and personally I can think of tons of times in the past where if I could have replenished force I wouldn't have been forced to fall back.

I could see that as something to spec into, but as a Lightning Sorc, that would be pretty much useless to me, there are other ways to solve the regen issue that other specs are having. I think it would be better if we had a thing where for however long you kept FB, you would get a reduced cast/channel time on your next # of abilities. For example, if I had FB on for 3 seconds, my next 3 casts/channels would have their cast time reduced by either a set or reduced amount, like .5 seconds.

As I posted ion that other thread, I think the lack of crowd control is the #1 issue at the moment. Two reasons:

*As a somewhat talentet sorc/sage who used to be able to juggle opponents I've noticed a significant difference since the nerf to electrocute range and then whirlwind, channeling. I think a good player should be able to fight 1 vs 2 or perhaps even 1 vs 3 but nowdays it's requiring an optimal setting, enviroment.

*A 1 vs 1 against a healer is manageable. In a team enviroment however, not so much. I'm not really just blaming heal output either. The main problem, as I see it, is that classes, including sorcs, have had their CC'es/stuns nerfed. I have to approach the healer to stun, which is ridiculous on a ranged class, and whirldwind respects LOS, meaning it's incredibly easy for the healer to just break it during channeling. So it basically comes down to running after the healer and hoping that you can outdps him, which isnt that easy always when the worst healer has a long insta stun and other escapes. Not to mention help from their team mates and perhaps also a tank. Had I been able to insta CC the tank atleast....but no cigar.

Also, did they ninja nerf force managment on sage/sorc? I'm leveling my 6th and things have been feeling really "off" lately.

1)The dps is viable, but you are hurting yourself by bringing a Sage / Sorcerer over certain other classes. The fights still can be cleared with Sages / Sorcerers but that is not the problem that I am bringing up. We are outclassed in every way by other ranged dps.

 

2) The self heal and bubble are not defensives, they are heals. The self heal does not reduce damage and the bubble can be placed on anyone, it is not exclusive to us. I am tired of getting killed in 1 shot by unavoidable damage where other classes can take 2 or more hits depending on if they use a defensive. Before you say this does not happen, Olok the Shadow hits us for 36k damage on his wrist laser burst even after a bubble. Kephess' jump hits for 40k damage even after a bubble. Our barrier cooldown can only save us from 1 hit every 3 minutes, and only on Kephess as you can see that coming. On Olok we are just SoL if we are not protected by Gunslinger shields.

 

4) Dummy parsing shows a LOT. Yes our dps goes down for a boss fight, but so does everyone else. I don't know why you think PT or Jugg dps is bad, they are doing very well especially compared to Sage / Sorcerer single target dps. Lol, Bring the Player not the Class! Ya until that player just needs to switch to another class to do a lot more dps.

 

Overall concern as a Sage dps? Gunslingers / Snipers are virtually required to clear NiM content and you have a far easier time clearing content by shelving a Sage / Sorcerer to gain a Gunslinger / Sniper. I would love to see a 16man raid group clear NiM content with only 1 Gunslinger or none at all. First 3 bosses in TFB and first 2 in S_V can be done, but I don't see others after that unless they out gear the fights.

 

The problem is not there on farming, but on progression, and this is what matters most to raiding guilds.

1. Looking at it like that yes. To say you have to have a sniper over a sorc to kill NM content at a world pace no. Metric wise yes we are bottom of the chart.

2. Not defensive but only we get to use them, I don't do 16M raiding anymore but I've never been one shotted by the listed mechanics. They do leave me at 5-10% HP however

3. They aren't bad I'm a firm believer that you can clear content at a world pace with any AC/group comp if the players play said AC in a top 1-5%. Agree that its easier to just bring "FOTM" class and do progression content. Parsing only goes so far day/out I'd take player A over player B if Player A was 100 dps lower on a dummy but had near flawless raid mechanics. Yes Lighting parses higher yet on fights lighting sorcs struggle due to real application instead of afk press buttons on a dummy. Maybe I'm just trying to poke at lighting players that go lol madness suckzors.

4. Hard to say considering no one will ever do this because perceived weakness. Week to week I have to get my dps to hold on multiple bosses so yes while metrically better 200-600 dps (300-500k) won't make you not kill a boss. It helps but thats silly.

I'm not disagreeing that we need to be brought up to snipers/mara but to act like we get took over a class is silly and an excuse.

You have to consider the implications of those cooldowns versus other defensive abilities. Force mend and constant static barrier maintenance consume a lot of globals that you could otherwise use be doing damage. The majority of the defensive mitigation cooldowns within swotr are not affected by global cooldown and so there is no damage lose from using them. Furthermore these cooldowns are dramatically less effective in pvp due to the 35% healing debuff trama and the mara/sniper healing debuff. Perhaps those two heals might help you in a raid but in a warzone they are significantly less effective. Static barrier and force mend simply do not compare to raw damage mitigation when being focused in pvp.

 

It is worth noting however that these two abilities are considerably stronger in corruption spec than either dps spec.

Sorcs are nearly impossible to kill in a warzone. While melee classes that have "real" CD's have to venture into the real frontline and face mezzez, stuns, CC, AoE's, while sorcs get to afk in the big range lol fest that is voidstar, and hypergates.

A sorc paired with a good tank/team usually won't they die unless they make a massive positional mistake and or the other team is that much better.

Only CD I'd agree is broke/needs rework is undying rage (limit % of heals received for time period)

In theory if a sorc is getting focused by melee classes the player is out of position or the melee is out of position and needs to be stunned and focused.

For background, I am primarily focused on PvE. I do a fair amount of regular PvP but almost no ranked PvP. I run both a dps Sage and dps Sorc in Nightmare content and have completed the timed run for NiM TFB and am currently 5/7 in NIM S&V. I primarily play Balance/Madness. With that background, my concerns are primarily focused on PvE, though they also have impact on PvP.

1) Are the Developers satisfied with the survivability of the Sorc?

Concerns: Sorcs have light armor. A number of Operation Bosses have mechanics where either the entire Operation or random members take damage. Many of those attacks are reduced by armor (ex. Kephess’s dreadbomb attack, Titan 6’s lots of missiles, Thrasher’s snipers). The difference in damage taken by Sorc compared to other dps or healers can be fairly drastic. We have seen many sages that were short 1 or 2 pieces of 72 gear get 1-shot by Kephess simply because they barely lacked the health to survive. Other classes don't fact that problem due to higher armor. Other classes take less damage and have multiple defensive cooldowns that can cut down a percentage of the damage taken thereby increasing their survivability to those mechanics.

A significant number of Operation Bosses also have a final burn phase where the boss starts putting out periodic damage to everyone in the operation. It becomes a matter of whether the Operation can kill the boss before the damage becomes too much for the healers to keep people alive. Unlike other classes that have defensive cooldowns that can mitigate some of this damage prolonging the time within which to get heals before dying a sorc does not have such an option.

The only defensive cooldown a Sorc has is the immunity bubble. While the bubble is 100% immunity it comes with a number of drawbacks. First, unlike every other defensive cooldown in the game, while the bubble is up, a sorc cannot continue to dps the boss. For example, in burn phases at the end, it often comes down to a choice to either use the immunity bubble to live but be unable to help your group until you are healed enough or continue to help the group while hoping that the healers can keep you up. Other classes can use a defensive cooldown to reduce incoming damage, giving healers a chance to heal them, while they continue to dps. Second, to protect from certain attacks, the bubble requires more precise timing than other defensive cooldowns which simply mitigate some of the damage. For example, on Kephess, if he has targeted a sorc for his leap and dreadbomb, if the immunity bubble is used to early, he will change targets, too late and he will do damage. Finally, the immunity bubble is on a very long (3 minute cooldown). There is no guaranty it will be up when needed given the frequency and randomness of these abilities.

The Self-heal and force bubble are not real defensive cooldowns. They require a global cooldown to use (unlike real defensive cooldowns). Additionally, the force bubble may or may not be able to be cast if one was recently used by a healer.

2) Are the Developers satisfied with the burst of the Sorc?

A number of Operation bosses have either short burn phases throughout the fight (ex. Styrak) or burn phases at the end (ex. Writhing Horror, Kephess, Titan VI). Madness sorcs have no execute and very limited ability to provide any burst dps. Importantly, when dealing with very short burn phases (ex. Dreadguard’s phase 1 – burn Ciphas’ shield), the need to apply dots and/or lost dot damage create further problems with Madness Sorcs being able to contribute to those burn phases. Many other classes have an execute and/or the ability to increase their damage for a short period of time. Sorcs really don’t.

Other concerns (discussed by others and I feel less of a concern going forward):

1) Force Regen is a concern on longer fights, particularly those with multiple adds/bosses that must be dpsed at the same time, such as the aforementioned burn phase where something other than the main boss has to be burned down.

2) Better in-game dot tracking. It would be nice to be able to customize the UI to track dots as well as easily see procs that are on the buff bar.

Retsigam (Sorc)

Magister (Sage)

The Shadowlands

Just to point this out, but these are QUESTIONS that we need to be giving the devs, not concerns. Questions like

"Are there any plans to fix madness force management/burst?"

Not

"This is how you fix madness."

I could see that as something to spec into, but as a Lightning Sorc, that would be pretty much useless to me, there are other ways to solve the regen issue that other specs are having. I think it would be better if we had a thing where for however long you kept FB, you would get a reduced cast/channel time on your next # of abilities. For example, if I had FB on for 3 seconds, my next 3 casts/channels would have their cast time reduced by either a set or reduced amount, like .5 seconds.

Aything tied to having FB up is useless because it breaks so quickly.

The Force Barrier thing I suggested is based off of how long it is up, and would be more so that we wouldn't have to choose between DPS and survival.

Just to point this out, but these are QUESTIONS that we need to be giving the devs, not concerns. Questions like

 

"Are there any plans to fix madness force management/burst?"

 

Not

 

"This is how you fix madness."

How about: "Can you please fix Madness's burst/force management in they way that we decide is the best?"

I got a Sage(Heals), Shadow(Tank), Smuggler(Heals), and Guardian(Tank).

The sage is main, I'm a little more casual than most who have posted here before me.

I have not done any HM ops, nor do I PVP on Ranked Warzones.

I have 2 man EC Zorn an Toth SM, tried my Hand at 2 man KP HM. This may not be the usual places to see a Sage, but they show the limits of it. Have not been able to get past KP HM 1st boss bcz I'm dead with just 1 swipe. Similar situation to NiM sages/sorcs do on Kephess/Titan.

1st

This goes to show my 1st concern and question. We are a light armor class with no real def CD. We can easily be one shot by several attacks in this game, where every other class would just end up in the low life area. FB does not work since as PVP guys put it "It's also a great 10s self stun".

Can we get some more armor and a rework of FB, maybe a 3-5s of 99% immunity while still being able to do something, with a CD of 60-90s.

2nd

Madness/Balance force regen is terrible. Im not a DPS person, but I have given it a try with both skill trees. Lightning/Telekinetics is ez and has none of this problems. While on the other side it is extremely ez to get into a negative force regen rotation for madness/balance.

Could you guys improve the force regen of Madness/Balance?

Madness spec running out of force power in PVP could be solved by changing sith efficacy to where it makes each tick of force lightning restore 2% of force power instead of 1%.

Exactly (btw just mentioned it in my previous post T_T).

One other thing is that while force barrier may not be particularly useful for PVE, force barrier is extremely nice for ranked PVP. I love force barrier. I believe that force barrier is fine as is. It allows the secondary medic (usually an operative) to heal the sorc while force barrier is up, which is very useful for ranked. Overall, I love corruption spec. Madness spec does need some work, but it isn't far off from being viable for ranked.

@ Imbik I didn't read through all 12 pages of posts on the thread. There was a lot of PVE stuff and I don't run raids very often with my sorcerer.

So most the threads seem both PVP and PVE.

Top four as I think I'm seeing them:

1. What is being done to resolve Force Management / Regen for TWO of the three TREES (Healing/Madness). Above and beyond the already placed BUG report on 2% skills not being added to Regen.
   
2. What is being done for Sage/Sorc class to provide an execute / burst Damage and/or Heals to our toolset? Understanding the why? Glass cannon approach! We are squishy = we are feared and deadly!
   
3. Please explain why our defensive tools are NOT on par with other classes? (Hamster Ball can't cast +3 min) A mathematical model or class comparison balance sheet might go a long way to explain this.
   
4. Turrent issue being addressed and providing more mobility for casting. Both DPS and Heals have this issue.
   

Just an IDEA, but maybe BW/EA need to publish a class comparison sheet for all classes. IE: Map out all the "Defensive/Offensive" items for each class on a massive chart. Would spell out the "WHY" we have balance setup like we do today. In theory you would see each class has xx Offensive items, yy Defensive, zz Utility and at the bottom they would all EQUAL the same number (Summary). This would address the DPS Lower in class XYZ than class ABC because it has a higher value in this field. (I know.. complex, but until then we all point at other classes and ask for NERF's and BUFF's to repeat forever and the LOUDEST class or PET class *cough sniper/smashmonkies* gets more change)