and here i was hoping the people in this thread would all be gone after dec 21

sadly it was not to be

So you admit you're scared of actually facing other premades.

 

Not that everyone didn't already know that.

 

 

Now most of you aren't even bothering to use your laughable excuses to at least pretend it's about something else.

 

 

Amazing how much energy all you blow here, lobbying to your dying breath, terrified and frothing, to make sure you don't have to actually face another premade.

 

Yeah, Uscared.

I dont know if scared is right to be honest. Most of the Pro-Premade Group makes little sense to me, including guys like Cash who have this tenacity to argue against more choice, while defending their own ability to choose. We are all just defending our best interests, which usually lies somewhere deep in cost and benefit analysis and personal priorities. Since I have been accused of not being clear...

Of course you want the ability to make Pre-Mades and tool PuGs. It requires the least amount of cost and reaps the best benefit for you if you have the system in place to enable ease of access. Stop with the arguments of choice. Its ********. If all you Pro-Pre-maders are truly on the side of choice, your choice, then respect other choices, or at the least the idea of increased choices.

How can any of you argue against more choice?

And Cash was wondering why I was laughing?

Its bloody hysterical!

"No - group up! Its the way of an MMO! I did it! You have to!"

"But my time constraints prevent me from it. I would prefer another choice."

"No! ITS AN MMO! Group or shut the **** up!"

"Well yes, I understand that grouping should be a part of it but am just lookin for another option if time doesnt permit..."

"To hell with your schedule. I pay too. I want it like this. Its MY choice that matters."

"I understand. There should a choice for Pre-Mades too, I agree. Just looking to have some fun PuGn, couldnt that be choice too?"

"No. Your choices are bad. Mine are good. Please go away."

Or as one responder said to Chan there...*get the **** out."

Arguing against choice is bad for the game. And yes Cash. I say it again. IT IS AN MMO.

Massive MultiPLAYER Online Game.

Ironic isnt it? Different players want different things, and more choices are good. Because afterall...

Its an MMO.

*still laughing*

I dont know if scared is right to be honest. Most of the Pro-Premade Group makes little sense to me, including guys like Cash who have this tenacity to argue against more choice, while defending their own ability to choose. We are all just defending our best interests, which usually lies somewhere deep in cost and benefit analysis and personal priorities. Since I have been accused of not being clear...

 

Of course you want the ability to make Pre-Mades and tool PuGs. It requires the least amount of cost and reaps the best benefit for you if you have the system in place to enable ease of access. Stop with the arguments of choice. Its ********. If all you Pro-Pre-maders are truly on the side of choice, your choice, then respect other choices, or at the least the idea of increased choices.

 

How can any of you argue against more choice?

 

And Cash was wondering why I was laughing?

 

Its bloody hysterical!

 

"No - group up! Its the way of an MMO! I did it! You have to!"

"But my time constraints prevent me from it. I would prefer another choice."

"No! ITS AN MMO! Group or shut the **** up!"

"Well yes, I understand that grouping should be a part of it but am just lookin for another option if time doesnt permit..."

"To hell with your schedule. I pay too. I want it like this. Its MY choice that matters."

"I understand. There should a choice for Pre-Mades too, I agree. Just looking to have some fun PuGn, couldnt that be choice too?"

"No. Your choices are bad. Mine are good. Please go away."

 

Or as one responder said to Chan there...*get the **** out."

 

Arguing against choice is bad for the game. And yes Cash. I say it again. IT IS AN MMO.

 

Massive MultiPLAYER Online Game.

 

Ironic isnt it? Different players want different things, and more choices are good. Because afterall...

 

Its an MMO.

 

*still laughing*

Thank you!

What most of you don't realize, we aren't AGAINST making a Pre-made. Hell, I HAVE gotten into or made pre-mades myself. What we are saying is that it shouldn't be the ONLY option. For various reasons, we aren't running pre-mades. THAT should be an option. Plain and simple. We should not be penalized for making this choice. Like I said, there are already systems in other games that allow non-pre-made groups to stand a chance against full pre-made groups. WoW and GW2 both have better PvP Systems then ToR. Is it really so much to ask that ToR at least LOOK at these other systems to see what they can do to help improve theirs? Seriously? But like I said. Those of us who don't want to be FORCED into running pre-mades are slowly quitting PvP. You get your wish, enjoy queues similar to that of the RWZ's. Then ***** about that. Thank you.

I totally agree that the WZs are runied by these preamde team clown, that are too coward to run ranked WZs. Instead they go to the regular WZs to show off and ruin the pvp for 100s of players.

 

Give me balanced fights and NEW players to fight agaisnt, not same old premade team running in a loop runing the pvp of all others.

 

A way would be removing the premade team option or place premades in a queue line of thier own. Its BAD BUSINESS to get ANNOYED CUSTOMERS!! You can also open up the WZ instance to be shared by all servers to get rotation.

It's not so much they are cowards to run rated wz's, its just a lot easier to get 4 people from a single guild willing to pvp than it is to get 8. Even if you do have 8 people ready for rateds, chances that another guild will have 8 are very slim. Throw in the right group make-up and everyone decently geared for the premade are very rare unless pre-planned.

Sorry, but I don't find facerolling another team to be a 'blast'. I'd much prefer to play against a team that is equally matched against mine. The most fun I have is WZs where the teams are so evenly matched (either through sheerly being bad or because both are that good) and the caps keep changing and everyone is actually FIGHTING for the win, not just steamrolling over the other team.

 

The fact that you find that fun is largely what's wrong with PVP in ANY game. Too many people don't want to compete on equal terms; they just want to win (and that's 'fun' for them).

now you just putting words in my mouth, projecting your own insecurities onto me... i never said i dont like competitive matches. nothing more fun than a civil war with a stale mate at mid.

all i said was queued together as a guild (a few of whom are IRL friends) owning every match is a blast. and if you say you disagree with that, then i name you sir... a gosh darn liar or an antisocial mmo recluse.

realize that premades arent about being ******es(although a few are), but its a group of 3-4 friends playing together, having fun, and who are probably just better than you.

edit: and LOL @ "you just want to win because thats fun for you". duh... the whole point is to win. its not up to me to make sure you put up a competitive match. its up to YOU.

My favorite games are the ones that are lopsided. In fact I get irritated when I'm in a close game because then I'm forced to actually play the game when I really just want to do damage

When you're on the losing team it's annoying since it is much harder to dps but if you use your head you can find lone targets and etc

Not our problem.

 

Get friends to queue with or get out.

I can assure you that people are, in fact getting, out. And a lot of them as far as I can tell from the amount of new faces I'm seeing in warzones. Because the more people leave the better, right?

I did, if you read back many, many pages.

 

I find many of the premades that are regular PVP guilds are awful people that will putdown the rest of the team even if they're playing well. And heaven forbid the team should lose, it's your fault, not the poorly put together premade's.

Yeah, I'm not gonna read through 180+ pages. But the fact remains that you're in the extreme minority. There's a "premades ruining normal WZs" thread every week, and everyone of them is about going against premades, but never playing with them and getting easy wins. This is why I don't take all of you who want solo Qs seriously.

I can assure you that people are, in fact getting, out. And a lot of them as far as I can tell from the amount of new faces I'm seeing in warzones. Because the more people leave the better, right?

 

 

No.

If the people leaving are also the ones arguing for queue segregation; yes.

If the people leaving are also the ones arguing for queue segregation; yes.

erm no just no, people are leaving due to excessive CC and due to premades. two of my co workers tried the F2P to see what it is like and they like to pvp. when they saw the PVP in this game as it is they basically said no way. to say it makes you want to pull your hair out of your head and kick in the wall is an understatement. it was somewhat fun pre 1.4 but after it its just plain silly. the premades are running 24/7 rolling pugs and getting gear 2 times as fast as the typical pugger. this stuff has to stop. but.....

when you suggest that to a premaider his typical responce is hostile... but why???? is it because it would ruin your ego to go up against a equal team? is it because you cant ROFL STOMP on lesser geared people? is it because if they stoped it there would be no one to carry you?

erm no just no, people are leaving due to excessive CC and due to premades. two of my co workers tried the F2P to see what it is like and they like to pvp. when they saw the PVP in this game as it is they basically said no way. to say it makes you want to pull your hair out of your head and kick in the wall is an understatement. it was somewhat fun pre 1.4 but after it its just plain silly. the premades are running 24/7 rolling pugs and getting gear 2 times as fast as the typical pugger. this stuff has to stop. but.....

 

when you suggest that to a premaider his typical responce is hostile... but why???? is it because it would ruin your ego to go up against a equal team? is it because you cant ROFL STOMP on lesser geared people? is it because if they stoped it there would be no one to carry you?

I love that. In one paragraph you talk about premades rolling pugs, yet in the next you insult the skill level of those same players by suggesting they need to be carried...

Premades response is typically hostile because we DO play ranked. It takes coordination, scheduling, and is typically only available in a 2-3 hour window on a daily basis. So it is not a stretch of logic to assume that a 4+4 v 4+4 only queue, will have a wait time that is somewhere between regular and ranked. Either way it spells longer wait times for anyone that wants to play with their friends. Then when you consider that the only reason people are asking for that to begin with, is because they want to win more than they are, without actually getting better, particularly when the option to group is available to EVERYONE. Well that arouses contempt in the heart of anyone who is painted as a monster, just for being better than average at a player vs player game, and wants at least 3 of the remaining 7 people on his team, to also be better than average.

There are no "pro" PvPers in this game. None of us received training, or collects a paycheck for playing this game. This is the park. And when you roll up to the park, ball in hand, you don't complain to the park district if there is a group of 4 kids who are better than you, using the court.

I love that. In one paragraph you talk about premades rolling pugs, yet in the next you insult the skill level of those same players by suggesting they need to be carried...

 

Premades response is typically hostile because we DO play ranked. It takes coordination, scheduling, and is typically only available in a 2-3 hour window on a daily basis. So it is not a stretch of logic to assume that a 4+4 v 4+4 only queue, will have a wait time that is somewhere between regular and ranked. Either way it spells longer wait times for anyone that wants to play with their friends. Then when you consider that the only reason people are asking for that to begin with, is because they want to win more than they are, without actually getting better, particularly when the option to group is available to EVERYONE. Well that arouses contempt in the heart of anyone who is painted as a monster, just for being better than average at a player vs player game, and wants at least 3 of the remaining 7 people on his team, to also be better than average.

 

There are no "pro" PvPers in this game. None of us received training, or collects a paycheck for playing this game. This is the park. And when you roll up to the park, ball in hand, you don't complain to the park district if there is a group of 4 kids who are better than you, using the court.

ROFL @ better than you using the court. what makes them better??? because they are rolling random / unballanced / undergeared teams? If there was a cross server que and a very short wait time for rated wz's i would be willing to bet that they would still be rolling pug groups. the fact is that pvp guilds are running premades 24 hours a day and gearing twice as fast as those whom are pugging. so rolling pugs requires skill because?

I agree with this post, pvp guilds are full of Puusays that just want to pick on the Recruit geared peeps, eather take away group ques for pvp and only allow group pvp for ranked or ill continue to leave ques as soon as i see a premade.

And what if a person does not belong in a PvP guild, but a PvE one and groups with friends for something to do until raid time?

There actually are people that do casual PvP with friends.

I love that. In one paragraph you talk about premades rolling pugs, yet in the next you insult the skill level of those same players by suggesting they need to be carried...

 

Premades response is typically hostile because we DO play ranked. It takes coordination, scheduling, and is typically only available in a 2-3 hour window on a daily basis. So it is not a stretch of logic to assume that a 4+4 v 4+4 only queue, will have a wait time that is somewhere between regular and ranked. Either way it spells longer wait times for anyone that wants to play with their friends. Then when you consider that the only reason people are asking for that to begin with, is because they want to win more than they are, without actually getting better, particularly when the option to group is available to EVERYONE. Well that arouses contempt in the heart of anyone who is painted as a monster, just for being better than average at a player vs player game, and wants at least 3 of the remaining 7 people on his team, to also be better than average.

 

There are no "pro" PvPers in this game. None of us received training, or collects a paycheck for playing this game. This is the park. And when you roll up to the park, ball in hand, you don't complain to the park district if there is a group of 4 kids who are better than you, using the court.

You know... Your ABSOLUTELY right... There ARE better players and worse players. However, to use your "park analogy", if you keep rubbing your wins into other peoples faces, then you will find only yourself to play with. You talk about long queues for Ranked. *** do you think is going to happen when all the "bads" you people complain of stop filling the queues and all your left with is the Pre-maders you would normally queue RWZs against... Then you get JUST as long of a wait time for PvP. Then you will B**** and Moan about No one queuing. When it will just be the peoples fault who refuse to want change. Most of the people I know I plain left the PvP in this game. I have myself. I got sick of having recruit gear and being farmed for kills. ****, on multiple occasions my group was being farmed at the spawn point. How in the HELL is that supposed to be fun? I don't care if I win or lose, as long as that loss came with a good game. But its getting harder and harder to get the Good Games Match ups. So people leave. Thats our only option, because if we suggest anything else, all we get is trolls. Like you. So like Ive said many times in this thread. Enjoy your Minimum 1-2 hour queue times. They are coming, and a lot sooner then you think.

Criminal...If you want to use a basketball example I will use one from my experience.

When I was in college we had a gym with 7 full courts, however only 3 were almost always available for pick up games. On these 3 courts you could almost always tell the skill difference.

You would occasionally see bad players decently under 6ft on the over 6ft court and you would occasionally see really good players on the least skilled of the courts, however this was rather rare and would often bring ridicule (of course behind their backs if it was the big guy on the lesser court lol).

I have also played in a lot of other gyms with 2-3 games going on consistently and this held true on those courts as well. Most people wanted to play in games that were near even.

Now in basketball 2 people can be of equal skill but one is a foot taller. They will be a lot better at basketball (again assuming equal skill). You can equate this to gear in mmos. You can also look at 2 players that (for the sake of this argument) have the same level of natural talent. However, one of these players has played for years and the other is rather new. The experienced player will be much better. Also, the experienced player will likely have friends to play with that complement his playstyle and will make his team even better.

Taking these things into account you could see that the players in these gyms would divide up and look for good games. Most everyone wanted to win and would do what they could to win on the court the should play on but the really good players would not go play on the worst of the courts just so that they could be sure they would win.

Most MMO premaders go against this and that is rather sad. If you are a well adjusted competitive player you should want more even matches and you should want premade matching. Otherwise you are just the loser that gets a group of similiar experienced and tall losers to play on the noob court. Man up!

Criminal...If you want to use a basketball example I will use one from my experience.

 

When I was in college we had a gym with 7 full courts, however only 3 were almost always available for pick up games. On these 3 courts you could almost always tell the skill difference.

 

You would occasionally see bad players decently under 6ft on the over 6ft court and you would occasionally see really good players on the least skilled of the courts, however this was rather rare and would often bring ridicule (of course behind their backs if it was the big guy on the lesser court lol).

 

I have also played in a lot of other gyms with 2-3 games going on consistently and this held true on those courts as well. Most people wanted to play in games that were near even.

 

Now in basketball 2 people can be of equal skill but one is a foot taller. They will be a lot better at basketball (again assuming equal skill). You can equate this to gear in mmos. You can also look at 2 players that (for the sake of this argument) have the same level of natural talent. However, one of these players has played for years and the other is rather new. The experienced player will be much better. Also, the experienced player will likely have friends to play with that complement his playstyle and will make his team even better.

 

Taking these things into account you could see that the players in these gyms would divide up and look for good games. Most everyone wanted to win and would do what they could to win on the court the should play on but the really good players would not go play on the worst of the courts just so that they could be sure they would win.

 

Most MMO premaders go against this and that is rather sad. If you are a well adjusted competitive player you should want more even matches and you should want premade matching. Otherwise you are just the loser that gets a group of similiar experienced and tall losers to play on the noob court. Man up!

Well said. Could not agree more. The fallacy in telling people to make friends and go form a pre-made of their own just needs to stop, it is not the way to fix the problem nor is it an acceptable solution for the vast majority of the game's population. The simple reality is the vast majority of our player base consists of casual, pug friendly players, these players tend to pop in and out and play the game as they please and/or their available play time allows. Most of these players are not hardcore nor have the resources that many of the more experienced and seasoned Premade players have; telling these players to play the game your way or get out, will not go over well for the overall health and population of the game, considering they comprise well over half the game's player base. This is the general purpose of Regular Warzone matches and what they are meant to satisfy, for players to enjoy casually and pop in and out as they please. The clear failure and fault of Bioware here was that Ranked Warzones were meant for the more experienced, coordinated and elite of the player base, effectively giving the better players a court to compete, and leaving the average player a court to continue enjoying casual/normal competition. Although it has been said and rebuked before, I will say it again. As a community we need to cease all internal arguing and demand the following:

Cross Realm Function

Adequate Matchmaking

Split Queue Matching for Pugs and Premades.

No less. This holy trinity fixes most if not all problems the current system has, as well as manages to adequately fill any future problems either of these systems would produce on their own. Claiming Bioware does not have the resources, time, or money to do this, is plain and simply a cop out and not the answer. If we as a community want a competitive, fair, and attractive PvP environment that lures players in, instead of repelling them away, we need to push Bioware to facilitate this holy trinity.

I happen to be in an active and competent PvP guild, run premades close to 65-70% of the time but still like to queue outside the times when no one in guild and or my friends list is available; although I thoroughly enjoy PvP when I am met with a Pug Vs Premade match it is blatantly discouraging, frustrating and overall repelling to the Pug side (assuming the premade is not terrible and in full recruit themselves). When I am on the other side of the spectrum, the premade, I find these kind of games boring, fruitless and out of place. As a premade I look for fair, competitive and engaging competition, as a premade, I will seldom if ever find this against a pug. As a pug, I look for fair, competitive and engaging competition, I will seldom if ever find this against a premade.

You know... Your ABSOLUTELY right... There ARE better players and worse players. However, to use your "park analogy", if you keep rubbing your wins into other peoples faces, then you will find only yourself to play with. You talk about long queues for Ranked. *** do you think is going to happen when all the "bads" you people complain of stop filling the queues and all your left with is the Pre-maders you would normally queue RWZs against... Then you get JUST as long of a wait time for PvP. Then you will B**** and Moan about No one queuing. When it will just be the peoples fault who refuse to want change. Most of the people I know I plain left the PvP in this game. I have myself. I got sick of having recruit gear and being farmed for kills. ****, on multiple occasions my group was being farmed at the spawn point. How in the HELL is that supposed to be fun? I don't care if I win or lose, as long as that loss came with a good game. But its getting harder and harder to get the Good Games Match ups. So people leave. Thats our only option, because if we suggest anything else, all we get is trolls. Like you. So like Ive said many times in this thread. Enjoy your Minimum 1-2 hour queue times. They are coming, and a lot sooner then you think.

very well put, these same so called pro pvpers claim its because of long rated que times but when we suggest that all 4 man premades to be sent to rated ques and also that there should be a cross server ques they are all up in arms about it. then they have the gall to claim we are bads because we dont like to be rolled. i would love to see them singing the same rainbow song if BW did pit them against other rateds by default.

Its very serious and frustrating to see that theres not a single comment on this issue at all from Bioware.

Its bad for business, its bad for PR for the game and Bioware that they dont care or listen to their customers. Especillay now when they claim that they will lsiten to us.

We will keep spreading bad reputation about SWTOR/Bioware and its lack of balances in pvp until this issue is fixed.

Theres NO use in making customers upset and annoyed, especially now when Bioware/SWTOR struggles to survive. Better to make the bigger numbers happy than the few rotten premade runners, who dont dare to face real competition in facing other premades.

This really SUX of you Bioware!!

Its very serious and frustrating to see that theres not a single comment on this issue at all from Bioware.

 

Its bad for business, its bad for PR for the game and Bioware that they dont care or listen to their customers. Especillay now when they claim that they will lsiten to us.

 

We will keep spreading bad reputation about SWTOR/Bioware and its lack of balances in pvp until this issue is fixed.

 

Theres NO use in making customers upset and annoyed, especially now when Bioware/SWTOR struggles to survive. Better to make the bigger numbers happy than the few rotten premade runners, who dont dare to face real competition in facing other premades.

 

This really SUX of you Bioware!!

Just because they have not posted here (most likely due to the fact that it is 200 pages of whining from both sides for the most part) doesn't mean they haven't commented on the issue. No splitting queues, but there is a better matchmaking system in the works.

Taking these things into account you could see that the players in these gyms would divide up and look for good games. Most everyone wanted to win and would do what they could to win on the court the should play on but the really good players would not go play on the worst of the courts just so that they could be sure they would win.

Unfortunately the majority of premade or hardcore pvpers are not sporty players. They are mostly kids with the inferior complex so to fill the hole they need to stomp over on others and said that were skill.

Well said. Could not agree more. The fallacy in telling people to make friends and go form a pre-made of their own just needs to stop, it is not the way to fix the problem nor is it an acceptable solution for the vast majority of the game's population. The simple reality is the vast majority of our player base consists of casual, pug friendly players, these players tend to pop in and out and play the game as they please and/or their available play time allows. Most of these players are not hardcore nor have the resources that many of the more experienced and seasoned Premade players have; telling these players to play the game your way or get out, will not go over well for the overall health and population of the game, considering they comprise well over half the game's player base. This is the general purpose of Regular Warzone matches and what they are meant to satisfy, for players to enjoy casually and pop in and out as they please. The clear failure and fault of Bioware here was that Ranked Warzones were meant for the more experienced, coordinated and elite of the player base, effectively giving the better players a court to compete, and leaving the average player a court to continue enjoying casual/normal competition. Although it has been said and rebuked before, I will say it again. As a community we need to cease all internal arguing and demand the following:

 

Cross Realm Function

Adequate Matchmaking

Split Queue Matching for Pugs and Premades.

 

No less. This holy trinity fixes most if not all problems the current system has, as well as manages to adequately fill any future problems either of these systems would produce on their own. Claiming Bioware does not have the resources, time, or money to do this, is plain and simply a cop out and not the answer. If we as a community want a competitive, fair, and attractive PvP environment that lures players in, instead of repelling them away, we need to push Bioware to facilitate this holy trinity.

 

I happen to be in an active and competent PvP guild, run premades close to 65-70% of the time but still like to queue outside the times when no one in guild and or my friends list is available; although I thoroughly enjoy PvP when I am met with a Pug Vs Premade match it is blatantly discouraging, frustrating and overall repelling to the Pug side (assuming the premade is not terrible and in full recruit themselves). When I am on the other side of the spectrum, the premade, I find these kind of games boring, fruitless and out of place. As a premade I look for fair, competitive and engaging competition, as a premade, I will seldom if ever find this against a pug. As a pug, I look for fair, competitive and engaging competition, I will seldom if ever find this against a premade.

best post ever explaining the issue, premades are discouraging casual pvpers / F2Pers from queing up / buying unlocks for wz's

best post ever explaining the issue, premades are discouraging casual pvpers / F2Pers from queing up / buying unlocks for wz's

Not to be overly harsh, but this is completely incorrect. The mindset of being a "casual" pvper is discouraging casual pvpers from queuing up. If you don't intend to spend time to understand your class, all of the classes you will face, work to get gear (and augment that gear), and use every tool in the game to win (stims, grenades, medpacks, etc.) then you can hardly complain about losing.

If you are just playing to have fun, then winning shouldn't matter. If winning matters, then you no longer fall in the category of casual and you need to take appropriate steps to achieve that goal. Grouping is one step in having a better chance to win in whatever queue you may be in, I suggest you take advantage of it.

It's not an advantage that cannot be overcome by a PUG, but it severely diminishes the chances of having terrible players on your team. As usual, what is being complained about in this thread has nothing to do with premades and is just a request for matchmaking in disguise. No one cares about premades as long as that group is on the same skill level as the PUG group. Having one pool of players will be a far better scenario than separate queues if BW is able to get a working matchmaking system in place.

I hope to one day see an argument against premades in this thread that actually centers around 4 people being grouped together rather than 4 people simply being better than them which could just as easily happen randomly.

Not to be overly harsh, but this is completely incorrect. The mindset of being a "casual" pvper is discouraging casual pvpers from queuing up. If you don't intend to spend time to understand your class, all of the classes you will face, work to get gear (and augment that gear), and use every tool in the game to win (stims, grenades, medpacks, etc.) then you can hardly complain about losing.

If you are just playing to have fun, then winning shouldn't matter. If winning matters, then you no longer fall in the category of casual and you need to take appropriate steps to achieve that goal. Grouping is one step in having a better chance to win in whatever queue you may be in, I suggest you take advantage of it.

So all you hard core pro pvper are only care about winning, but not the challenging ? So you making a group to stomp on new player ?

It's not an advantage that cannot be overcome by a PUG, but it severely diminishes the chances of having terrible players on your team. As usual, what is being complained about in this thread has nothing to do with premades and is just a request for matchmaking in disguise. No one cares about premades as long as that group is on the same skill level as the PUG group. Having one pool of players will be a far better scenario than separate queues if BW is able to get a working matchmaking system in place.

Really ? tell me would you take a recruit gear ? If you don't dare to take a recruit gear in your premade then your argument is just hollow words. You would never take a recruit gear when PUG will have to take a recruit gear. Your team will have less chance to get a recruit gears compare to PUG. So if everone is making a premade and no one taking a recruit gear, We have team of recruit being match up against pro WH +aug premade. Well done idiot you just put and end to all new player in this game.

I hope to one day see an argument against premades in this thread that actually centers around 4 people being grouped together rather than 4 people simply being better than them which could just as easily happen randomly.

May be all of premade like you, having trouble understanding. PUGs have to accept newplayer and train them, that is what none rank casual wz for. Premade dont accept newplayer - recruit gear, hp below 16k -, chose specific classes to join, you are not freaking better skill, the only thing you have is eliminate the newplayer in you group. And i said again, if people all make premade in casual WZ, the only left will be recruit gear with no where to compete against Full WH premade group. So try to think before you ask s.o to make premade group, it's stupid idea.

So all you hard core pro pvper are only care about winning, but not the challenging ? So you making a group to stomp on new player ?

 

 

 

Really ? tell me would you take a recruit gear ? If you don't dare to take a recruit gear in your premade then your argument is just hollow words. You would never take a recruit gear when PUG will have to take a recruit gear. Your team will have less chance to get a recruit gears compare to PUG. So if everone is making a premade and no one taking a recruit gear, We have team of recruit being match up against pro WH +aug premade. Well done idiot you just put and end to all new player in this game.

 

 

 

May be all of premade like you, having trouble understanding. PUGs have to accept newplayer and train them, that is what none rank casual wz for. Premade dont accept newplayer - recruit gear, hp below 16k -, chose specific classes to join, you are not freaking better skill, the only thing you have is eliminate the newplayer in you group. And i said again, if people all make premade in casual WZ, the only left will be recruit gear with no where to compete against Full WH premade group. So try to think before you ask s.o to make premade group, it's stupid idea.

Very well put, i was going to comment on some of his remarks but you did such a remarkable job all i will say is i totally agree