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PvP in it's glory day, a reflection on 1.1.5


KhalDrogoe

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I'm going to have to disagree with you OP.

 

The old system was confusing, with too many different types of commendations for too many disparate things. The RNG was terrible, I NEVER got a piece of gear from a bag.

 

let me say that again

 

NEVER

 

The current system is too grindy, but it is superior to the broken bag system hands down.

 

for most classes u need 8-10 more pieces of armor to min max the sets + some L26-27 armorings. Those pieces are 2000-2250 RWZ comms each

takes longer tbh and if u have more than 1 L50 to pvp,...well

Bw in fact added more time for the lolgrinding after 1.2 and reduced the amount of credits u get from wz's

and if u want to use the new EliteWarHero mods and enhas...well just do the maths each piece is 5450 RWZ comms.

Nice, isn't....:eek:

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But, marauders weren't happy in 1.1.5.

 

They've already lost the bulk of all the other classes- they can't revert it, they'd lose the majority of their current players.

 

Again.

 

It's probably a good thing they kept the buff/nerfing strategy of 1.2 that worked so well. After all- can you imagine if they'd listened to the people who had brought out all their well thought out and correct criticisms? There's some times where you have to just stick to your guns as an mmo company and not cave in to the millions playing the game. After all- if they'd done what people wanted when there were 1.7 million players, it could have led to a disaster.

 

Heck, this game might even have had to go f2p in the first year!

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That was entirely dependant on whether the rng was in your favor. I got very lucky on one character while on another I didn't see a single drop for a long time.

 

Yes... but BM gear was so small an improvement, in some cases people actually considered the champ gear better. Compare BM to WH now- and a dead ape could tell you WH is vastly superior in every way.

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wrong..

 

 

 

 

any type of pvp gear reward that doesnt require any SKILL whatsoever is bad....

 

you dont need a rating...you dont need ANYTHING, all you need its to play...a BOT can get full pvp gear, how does that make any sense?God bless rating sistes and rating requirements on pvp...rewarding who DESERVES to be rewarded...not who plays the most...

 

 

 

 

then again..between 2 bad sistems at least the GRINDING one you ahve now requires you to play and actualy try to win to make the grind shorter...nack then you only had to open bags mostly...so...basically you are telling me that a pvp gear loterry is better then a pvp gear grind?! (when both are terrible to be honest..like i said pvp gear should be rewarded upon skill...at least the top tier..its not elitism, this happens in EVERY aspect of life..

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1.1.5 also sported the closest thing to balance this game has achieved yet. TTK was long enough that players could outwit their opponents, and warzones had a greater variety of classes/specs. I don't understand BW's reasoning, but they have since put the wrong people in charge of pvp. I do wish that I could contact then convince upper management that the fundamentals still exist for attractive pvp, my server though active is losing people. They need to replace their current pvp team, who are evidently incompetent.
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PRe 1.2 pvp sucked period stacking buffs such as relics adrenal and wz stims etc and some say TTK was better? my vaguard tank *** still hurt from those oepratives killing him in 3 globals or 3,5k damage nonstop tracer spam,or beign able to use the rakata medpac and the wz one at same time so ppl returned to full hp in an instant maybe that was that made ttk feel right? ha! opening bags and bags just to get the same piece of gear or nothing at all,,,,,,it was terrible tbh Edited by Danapa
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PRe 1.2 pvp sucked period stacking buffs such as relics adrenal and wz stims etc and some say TTK was better? my vaguard tank *** still hurt from those oepratives killing him in 3 globals or 3,5k damage nonstop tracer spam,or beign able to use the rakata medpac and the wz one at same time so ppl returned to full hp in an instant maybe that was that made ttk feel right? ha! opening bags and bags just to get the same piece of gear or nothing at all,,,,,,it was terrible tbh

 

 

It needed some minor fixes. It did NOT require an entire overhaul which is what we received.

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ilum is destined for failure without some massive changes to the game engine. and given by the fact that every "optimization" to the engine has only resulted in WORSE performance, i doubt that will happen.

 

this version of the hero engine can barely handle 8v8 warzone pvp, you think it will be able to handle 50v50 any better than it did in 1.1.5?

 

Yeah, that's the 20,000 pound elephant in that post. Would have been fine to have an ilum-related daily if ilum worked, but it didn't, and it got worse with every graphical "fix." Forget 50 v 50...Ilum handled 1 v 1s worse than anywhere else. Used to head to Korriban, hoth or tattoine to duel each other. Not Ilum.

 

Also, the he's leaving out merc comms, which were a really bad idea considering the only world sources spawned, like, once every 12 hours or something ridiculous.

 

I do agree that that was the high-water mark for class balance, though.

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Anyone who thinks the old gear grind was reasonable is remembering it through rose colored glasses. Grinding those bags was extremely terrible since you had absolutely no control over what you were getting. RNG bags were the worst idea to ever come out since square shaped wheels.

 

As and for longer TTK? Lolwut? Say hello to "Whole teams popping adrenals and relics and FF one person".

Edited by Smashbrother
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Whoever says this bag system was a bad system is a complete moron.

It was an interesting post until this part, in which I stopped reading.

 

Not everyone is going to agree with eachother. Resorting to name calling because your opinions differ from others isn't cool.

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Um no dude, you could double stack expertise buffs and use PvE adrenals back in the day and surge could get close to 90% before it got nerfed. That meant literal 3 hit Operatives and 10k smashes and PTs that could spam rail shot even faster. It would be a complete disaster if the knowledge people have now of builds were present at launch where everything was new and unknown. Except the Hybrid DPS Sage build that can proc an insta telekinetic wave from telekinetic throw, I want that back Edited by LoL-K-Noob
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We're not dealing with an all or nothing, black and white situation. Don't lean on a binary for easy digestion, you;ll miss the details. I agree that the presence of adrenals would be absurd in the current pvp environment, but that is an anachronistic argument and therefore pointless to discuss.

 

People lived longer pre-1.2 even with adrenals, which gave more leverage to tactics and less to burst. But for some obscure reason, BW made the decision to radically increase kill times in lieu of adjusting specific problem and then, also implementing a nasty gear grind with it.

 

I do miss the bags, tbh. Which at the time I would have never thought I'd say. But the gear grind (which doesn't stop at the Wh set) we have today coupled with the insane damage being done, makes getting properly geared one heck of a task. I do not understand BW's failure to connect with their players rather than forcing their vision on us sans restraint. Is it really so hard for a dev to understand the symbiotic nature between designer and player?

 

My server, though active, is without a doubt losing more pvpers every week. So, I can't help but wonder if we'd see less hemorrhaging of the pvp community if leveling and gearing alts wasn't as daunting a journey as it is now and tactical creativity had more influence than the number of PTs and/or smash-jugs.

Edited by Sowwy
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We're not dealing with an all or nothing, black and white situation. Don't lean on a binary for easy digestion, you;ll miss the details. I agree that the presence of adrenals would be absurd in the current pvp environment, but that is an anachronistic argument and therefore pointless to discuss.

 

It's very relevant because teams using VOIP and coordinating popping relics/adrenals and FFing someone was a problem. It also meant 10k sweep bombs.

 

People lived longer pre-1.2 even with adrenals, which gave more leverage to tactics and less to burst. But for some obscure reason, BW made the decision to radically increase kill times in lieu of adjusting specific problem and then, also implementing a nasty gear grind with it.

 

People only lived longer back then because very few people were completely geared back then. So most of the people in WZs were cent/champ geared, with a few players being full BM. Most of the pvp population had similar gear. Now, you have WZs where half the people are full WH, and half at recruit/BM. Hence why people think TTK is too short.

 

I do miss the bags, tbh. Which at the time I would have never thought I'd say. But the gear grind (which doesn't stop at the Wh set) we have today coupled with the insane damage being done, makes getting properly geared one heck of a task. I do not understand BW's failure to connect with their players rather than forcing their vision on us sans restraint. Is it really so hard for a dev to understand the symbiotic nature between designer and player?

 

***? You think RNG bags were better than this system? What are you smoking? First in order to obtain BM gear, you had to be valor 60, so you had to grind a bunch of valor (you didn't get as much valor back then) in order to even START obtaining the best pvp gear. Then you had to get stupid bags that only had a 25% chance to drop 1 token, AND you need like 3 tokens to buy a piece. So on average it took about a week to obtain a piece of gear, but if you were one of the unlucky people then it took MUCH longer.

 

WH gear can be gotten the moment you hit 50, and doesn't require you to grind out valor. It also takes about a week per piece, except that there is no luck involved so you don't get screwed.

 

My server, though active, is without a doubt losing more pvpers every week. So, I can't help but wonder if we'd see less hemorrhaging of the pvp community if leveling and gearing alts wasn't as daunting a journey as it is now and tactical creativity had more influence than the number of PTs and/or smash-jugs.

 

 

 

Just as daunting back then to gear alts.

Edited by Smashbrother
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It's very relevant because teams using VOIP and coordinating popping relics/adrenals and FFing someone was a problem. It also meant 10k sweep bombs.

 

Adrenals are no longer usable in warzones and no one is calling for their return, hence its irrelevant ..or as I said an anachronistic argument.

 

 

 

People only lived longer back then because very few people were completely geared back then. So most of the people in WZs were cent/champ geared, with a few players being full BM. Most of the pvp population had similar gear. Now, you have WZs where half the people are full WH, and half at recruit/BM. Hence why people think TTK is too short.

 

Nope, we noticed the difference day one of 1.2 when everyone was still in BM gear. We wondered if defensive stats were working at all or something similar. But I do agree that the gap between aug'd min/max WH gear and recruit is too large.

 

***? You think RNG bags were better than this system? What are you smoking? First in order to obtain BM gear, you had to be valor 60, so you had to grind a bunch of valor (you didn't get as much valor back then) in order to even START obtaining the best pvp gear. Then you had to get stupid bags that only had a 25% chance to drop 1 token, AND you need like 3 tokens to buy a piece. So on average it took about a week to obtain a piece of gear, but if you were one of the unlucky people then it took MUCH longer.

 

Difference of opinion. I'd rather gamble a shorter gear grind than be guaranteed a two month pursuit (even longer for many players).

 

WH gear can be gotten the moment you hit 50, and doesn't require you to grind out valor. It also takes about a week per piece, except that there is no luck involved so you don't get screwed.

 

There is no benefit from a long gear grind. BW seems to have adopted the archaic EQ model of the distant carrot, but the MMO demographic has grown to include people with careers and families. The game should adapt to the times. Options are a good thing, for example, if when logging into the game I could choose from a multitude of alts instead of just 2 (which has taken me this long to fully gear) my game time would offer a broader experience. eg. I'm bored of my vanguard, so Ill play my shadow instead of logging off. Requiring a significant time investment to reach the baseline of competitiveness is an unnecessarily intimidating prospect and it surely puts many people off. And btw, retaining current players and attracting new players to pvp is a good for everyone.

 

Just as daunting back then to gear alts

 

No because my alts didn't die as quickly pre1.2. So even though I still had quite the grind, I could at least enjoy more of it.

Edited by Sowwy
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That was entirely dependant on whether the rng was in your favor. I got very lucky on one character while on another I didn't see a single drop for a long time.

 

Well I'm talking about when they introduced the ability to buy BM Comms for 1K Merc Comms.

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As mentioned the hero engine is one thing, but the biggest issue with ilum imo is the horrible design. If you have a design that causes the whole server to fight at the spawn of the map ofc it is going to lag like hell, I mean cmon, huge map with 3 meaningless and poorly designed objectives. If they had any clue they would have a design that forced people to split up and not all gather at one spot.

 

The rng bag system wasn't that bad, it was just frustrating putting in the same effort as your friends, then watching them get full BM in no time while you got nothing.

 

Couldn't agree more w.r.t. Ilum. They need a system with objective boxes/chests spawning at truely random locations throughout Ilum. And no I do not mean rotating amongst 20 fixed locations. That just causes crowded camping and the attendant lag. Truely random locations. And if one faction is winning most of the spawns in the last say 10 min, then there should be a higher probability that the spawns occur near npcs of the other faction. Proceeding until spawns actually occur in the losing side's home base.

 

As far as the RNG system, it was bad. That does not mean all RNG loot systems are bad. If they had made BM bags cost 3 times as much and made the chance of a a BM token 3x as large, everything would have been fine. But BM did not understand the statistical theory behind one sided (downward) variance and the result was thousands of pissed off customers. Math matters.

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Adrenals are no longer usable in warzones and no one is calling for their return, hence its irrelevant ..or as I said an anachronistic argument.

 

And we don't use bags to buy gear anymore, but that didn't stop you from claiming pvp bags were better.

 

 

 

Nope, we noticed the difference day one of 1.2 when everyone was still in BM gear. We wondered if defensive stats were working at all or something similar. But I do agree that the gap between aug'd min/max WH gear and recruit is too large.

 

Defensive stats haven't changed at all since launch in the way they work in pvp, so I don't know why you brought it up. The removal of relic/adrenals (damage portion) highered TTK while the expertise fix lowered TTK. I feel those two changes balanced out, and TTK hasn't changed all that much between equal geared players.

 

Difference of opinion. I'd rather gamble a shorter gear grind than be guaranteed a two month pursuit (even longer for many players).

 

You're the only one that wants an RNG bag system vs. a guaranteed system. Nobody else wants to go back to that ****** RNG bag system but you. When people put in effort to get a reward, but then aren't rewarded (due to RNG), it makes them not want to play.

 

There is no benefit from a long gear grind. BW seems to have adopted the archaic EQ model of the distant carrot, but the MMO demographic has grown to include people with careers and families. The game should adapt to the times. Options are a good thing, for example, if when logging into the game I could choose from a multitude of alts instead of just 2 (which has taken me this long to fully gear) my game time would offer a broader experience. eg. I'm bored of my vanguard, so Ill play my shadow instead of logging off. Requiring a significant time investment to reach the baseline of competitiveness is an unnecessarily intimidating prospect and it surely puts many people off. And btw, retaining current players and attracting new players to pvp is a good for everyone.

 

The gear grind is there to keep players hooked. Even GW2 only has standardized gear in their sPvP, but not in their world pvp. I don't mind having to grind out the gear for my main, but yes it's annoying having to regrind it on every subsequent alt, especially when SWTOR is designed for rolling alts.

 

No because my alts didn't die as quickly pre1.2. So even though I still had quite the grind, I could at least enjoy more of it.

 

That's simply because of the lower gear gap. Back then the highest tier of pvp gear was BM which is 140 rating and no augments. Now we have 146 rating gear with full augments.

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And we don't use bags to buy gear anymore, but that didn't stop you from claiming pvp bags were better.

Defensive stats haven't changed at all since launch in the way they work in pvp, so I don't know why you brought it up. The removal of relic/adrenals (damage portion) highered TTK while the expertise fix lowered TTK. I feel those two changes balanced out, and TTK hasn't changed all that much between equal geared players.

 

You're very difficult to talk to. The change to TTK was sudden and unexpected. We were so surprised by the adjustment we gave the benefit of the doubt to BW, and wondered that perhaps things weren't being calculated correctly. Unfortunately, our hopes were dashed.

 

 

You're the only one that wants an RNG bag system vs. a guaranteed system. Nobody else wants to go back to that ****** RNG bag system but you. When people put in effort to get a reward, but then aren't rewarded (due to RNG), it makes them not want to play.

 

I don't necessarily want the bag system, but I'd prefer it to what we have now. And it doesn't matter if its just me or 1000 other people.

 

 

The gear grind is there to keep players hooked. Even GW2 only has standardized gear in their sPvP, but not in their world pvp. I don't mind having to grind out the gear for my main, but yes it's annoying having to regrind it on every subsequent alt, especially when SWTOR is designed for rolling alts.

 

Everyone understands this. Not everyone thinks it best.

 

 

That's simply because of the lower gear gap. Back then the highest tier of pvp gear was BM which is 140 rating and no augments. Now we have 146 rating gear with full augments.

 

You're correct. I believe pvp would be more engaging, more rewarding and less intimidating to new players if the gap was reduced.

Edited by Sowwy
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