Kyanzes Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 (edited) So, I have been looking for more in-depth info on expertise but all I can find are either outdated or too obscure for me. So, what happens when Player1 has 1200 expertise and Player2 has (say) 1350 expertise? Is it as if Player 2 has 150 expertise and Player1 has none? I simply can't find out whether the difference between 1200 expertise and 1350 expertise is significant or nearly meaningless. I can see on an old graph that the difference is numerically small, some 22.8% vs 23.5% or something like that for damage boost but are there other "hidden" factors that one should be aware of? Any info on this or a link to a good general (and up to date) info on expertise would be nice. Edited January 28, 2013 by Kyanzes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kegparty Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 click the PVP option in your character sheet. It tells you your current % differences for defense healing etc based on your expertise That is why when you hit 50 and you see a drop in stats but a major boost in expertise USING recruit gear you should take it. If I see another person in the game without 800+ expertise I just plan on dropping. They obviously could care less about the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kegparty Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 (edited) Edited. Its not linear Edited January 29, 2013 by Kegparty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainbow Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 (edited) According to this http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/thread-364.html thread the amount of increase/reduction can be calculated as follows: PvP Damage Boost = 50% * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( ( Expertise ) / max(Level,20) ) / 0.8 ) ) PvP Damage Reduction = 1 - 1 / ( 1 + PvPDamageBoost ) PvP Healing Boost = 30% * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( Expertise / max(Level,20) ) / 1.5 ) ) That means, the more Expertise you have, the less the same difference will impact both players. If you draw a graph using Excel you can see that the more expertise you have, the less the absolute reduction gain will be. At 0 Expertise you gain 1,25% damage increase for the first 50 points in Expertise. At 1000 Expertise you only gain 0,75% damage increase for 50 points in Expertise... After 1250 Expertise the increase doesn't really outweigh the increase you get from other stats usually... Expertise Damage Delta 0 0,00% 0% 50 1,25% 1,25% 100 2,46% 1,22% 150 3,65% 1,19% 200 4,80% 1,16% 250 5,93% 1,13% 300 7,03% 1,10% 350 8,10% 1,07% 400 9,15% 1,04% 450 10,17% 1,02% 500 11,16% 0,99% 550 12,13% 0,97% 600 13,07% 0,94% 650 13,99% 0,92% 700 14,89% 0,90% 750 15,77% 0,88% 800 16,62% 0,85% 850 17,45% 0,83% 900 18,26% 0,81% 950 19,06% 0,79% 1000 19,83% 0,77% 1050 20,58% 0,75% 1100 21,31% 0,73% 1150 22,03% 0,72% 1200 22,73% 0,70% 1250 23,41% 0,68% 1300 24,07% 0,66% 1350 24,72% 0,65% 1400 25,35% 0,63% 1450 25,96% 0,61% 1500 26,56% 0,60% Edited January 28, 2013 by rainbow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiaRB Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 So, I have been looking for more in-depth info on expertise but all I can find are either outdated or too obscure for me. So, what happens when Player1 has 1200 expertise and Player2 has (say) 1350 expertise? Is it as if Player 2 has 150 expertise and Player1 has none? I simply can't find out whether the difference between 1200 expertise and 1350 expertise is significant or nearly meaningless. I can see on an old graph that the difference is numerically small, some 22.8% vs 23.5% or something like that for damage boost but are there other "hidden" factors that one should be aware of? Any info on this or a link to a good general (and up to date) info on expertise would be nice. pretty sure it basically goes like this for pvp damage and pvp damage reduction... the stats you see on your PVP tab are what your bonuses would be vs a 0 exp player. if both players have the same exp, it cancels out and neither player gets bonus damage or damage reduction. so for what you want to know, remove all your gear, then just add enough gear so you have 150 exp. now look at the PVP stats 150 exp gives. that will be what the advantage player2 has from your question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyanzes Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 Thanks guys! So, basically, 150 expertise difference is not significant then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoopies Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Has it not been changed since the above formula? Damage is very high now, per pt of expertise. Dmg reduction is ok and healing bonus is crap, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainbow Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Has it not been changed since the above formula? Damage is very high now, per pt of expertise. Dmg reduction is ok and healing bonus is crap, You noticed there are three different formulas? I've got 1222 expertise atm on my operative and if I calculate the values via the formula that corresponds to the %-values displayed in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wwkingms Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 ive heard a rumor that expertise reduces dmg taken from other players.. oddly though i still get crit for 6 and 7k by lolsmashes and eat chain 5k crits from loltechs so i cannot confirm this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jizerai Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Has it not been changed since the above formula? Damage is very high now, per pt of expertise. Dmg reduction is ok and healing bonus is crap, This has been gone over before. Damage Increase and Damage Reduction cancel each other out with Expertise. If both players have an equal amount of it, there is no increased damage whatsoever, due to Expertise. The healing bonus is the only thing unaffected by this, making healers always gain an Healing Increase with Expertise. We can argue all day whether or not that increase is sufficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kegparty Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 (edited) Edited my first post because the expertise calculations are not linear so an analogy would not work. Anyways.. Just curious on the damage increase negating if both players have the same expertise This has been gone over before. Damage Increase and Damage Reduction cancel each other out with Expertise. If both players have an equal amount of it, there is no increased damage whatsoever, due to Expertise. So with 1282 expertise one of my characters has: Damage increase 23.83% Damage Reduction 19.25 Healing 13.19% If two people with the same 1282 expertise are fighting each other I can see how the percent will cancel out in the long run if they are doing the same dps... BUT lets say one is just taking damage from the other player. How can a 23.83% damage increase be negated by a 19.25 damage reduction... Edited January 29, 2013 by Kegparty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainbow Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 (edited) How can a 23.83% damage increase be negated by a 19.25 damage reduction... Simple... Real Damage = Base Damage * ( 1 + Increase in Percent) * (1 - Decrease in Percent) Real Damage = Base Damage * 1.2383 * 0.8075. If you calculate 1.2383 * 0.8075 you will get roughly 1.0000. (Because of rounding errors...) This can be explained rather simple if you solve the formula: Real Damage = Base Damage * (1 + PvPDamBonus) * (1 - (1 - 1/(+PvPDamBonus))) PvP Damage Bonus PvP Damage Reduction Just multiply out... Real Damage = Base Damage *((1 + PvPDamBonus) - (1 + PvPDamBonus) + PvPDamBonus)/(+PvPDamBonus)) So now you can drag together within the brackets... (1+PvPDamBonus) - (1+PvPDamBonus) = 0. Real Damage = Base Damage * (0 + (1 + PvPDamBonus)/(1 + PvPDamBonus)) Now (1 + PvPDamBonus)/(1 + PvPDamBonus) for sure equals 1. So... Real Damage = Base Damage * 1 or in other words: Real Damage = Base Damage. Edited January 29, 2013 by rainbow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kegparty Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Makes perfect sense. I did not think about the fact that the reduction percent is taken after the total damage is increased. Thanks for the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jizerai Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I see my work here is done! Thank you rainbow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islander Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 (edited) This has been gone over before. Damage Increase and Damage Reduction cancel each other out with Expertise. If both players have an equal amount of it, there is no increased damage whatsoever, due to Expertise. The healing bonus is the only thing unaffected by this, making healers always gain an Healing Increase with Expertise. We can argue all day whether or not that increase is sufficient. This. The healing bonus directly reduces the 30% trauma that's inflicting by default the moment you enter a warzone or pvp combat. What you gain in DPS output (by reducing expertise for pve 27 items) is counterbalanced by your own survivability (especially considering incoming heals). What you are comfortable with is an individual thing, but there's no 'cap' anywhere. it's all about how much you want to take from one pool and give to the other pool. Edited January 29, 2013 by islander Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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