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Is Merc worth it?


Alohen

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This is the problem. At 40 it is fun but at 50 when the player base gets better overall you will find good players waiting for your unload to interrupt ruining your burst potential. You will not be able to use power shot for the same reasons as above...a vanguard can lock you out of any channeled ability for over 20 seconds forcing you to rely on rapid shots, your dot, grenades and your punch. They get to use every ability they have without worry. One jedi will be able to destroy you with very little effort. You have fun now thinking to yourself man what a great class and then hit 50 pvp and grind the gear only to find out that the class is average when played flawlessly...when you could be playing vanguard assault for much greater effect. Yes, you will have a good game every once in awhile...but play an AC where every game is a good game.

 

 

Actually they are the cake or lack there of in the merc's case. While a Powertech can fairly reliably max our a 3 second burst in the 17k range on the move the merc cannot.

 

I don't get people like you. You sulk around the forums trying to bring down anyone and everyone having a little sliver of fun with the class down. Why? Because you're butthurt at the current state of Mercs and have to make sure everyone is as miserable as you are? Why can't you just let the people who want to discuss and make the best of what they can do that and go on your way?

 

Oh, right because misery loves company...

Edited by Kurugi
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I don't get people like you. You sulk around the forums trying to bring down anyone and everyone having a little sliver of fun with the class down. Why? Because you're butthurt at the current state of Mercs and have to make sure everyone is as miserable as you are? Why can't you just let the people who want to discuss and make the best of what they can do that and go on your way?

 

Oh, right because misery loves company...

 

He asked a question and I answered it. I quoted you because it points out the issue for some with the class great early on leading to a false sense of the class for later on. He didn't ask me to give him lolly pops and flowers...the current state of the merc in PVP at level 50 is sub par to many other ACs. There isn't much to argue with there.

 

The sub 50 game mercs are fun...I am leveling a merc right now as a matter of fact and generally score double the damage of most in the warzone (due to experience I have leveling a commando). Once I hit 50 he will get shelved because I have no urge to do that grind again for pvp.

 

Pyro would do better if BW allowed mercs to proc HIB (edit- sorry CGC...trying to keep lingo merc oriented) off of punch like powertechs (a suggestion I have made that would put this spec on even footing) but currently in 50 pvp without this ability they are not as competative as powertech pyro. This is the difference between the 17k burst the powertech can put out and the so so damage the merc puts out.

 

 

I am glad that you think your opinion is greater than mine, but I was responding to the op in my post not to the banter happening in the thread..except for the last quote.

 

Oh and on the positive side merc is amazing for PVE...there not all negative.

Edited by Aaoogaa
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Fair enough. I forgot the original topic was about something else and I kinda hijacked the thread a bit.You quoted my post so I thought you were addressing me. My mistake.

 

As an avid MMO player of 8 years my advice to the OP then would be to never. Never. NEVER choose your class based on current game balance.

 

EVER

 

Why? Because MMOs are dynamic. They never stay the same. For example, lets say you choose to play PT over Merc simply because PTs are in a better spot PvP wise. Now, while you're leveling, a major balance patch is released that buffs Mercs and makes them quite good in PvP all of a sudden, and PTs received a couple of nerfs but are still viable, albeit not as desirable. Well now what do you do? Continue to level the PT even though they aren't as good or reroll as a Merc this time?

 

I chose Merc over PT for 2 reasons, and 2 reasons only:

 

1. I wanted to play range

 

2. 2 guns are cooler than 1

 

That's it. End of list. I was aware Mercs weren't in the best spot in PvP but it had no bearing on my decision because choosing your class based on playstyle mechanics and aesthetics ALWAYS ends up trumping going for what's considered "overpowered", because power always ends up changing hands eventually.

 

Pyro would do better if BW allowed mercs to proc HIB (edit- sorry CGC...trying to keep lingo merc oriented) off of punch like powertechs (a suggestion I have made that would put this spec on even footing) but currently in 50 pvp without this ability they are not as competative as powertech pyro. This is the difference between the 17k burst the powertech can put out and the so so damage the merc puts out.

 

Actually the ability you're thinking of is Rail Shot. :p

 

That change doesn't really make sense for the class fundamentally speaking since you're essentially looking to force a ranged class, that generally wants to keep as great a distance from its enemies as possible, to have the main proc of one of its specs tied to an ability that only has a 4m range. While it is an instant ability I don't think it would translate smoothly in actual gameplay.

 

Personally, it doesn't sting as much if/when Unload gets interrupted as a Pyro Merc, since the main reason I use Unload in the first place is to proc PPA, and whether or not it procs is determined as soon as the ability is activated. If I can get the full Unload off I just look at that as bonus damage, but that's just me, and yes I realize I'm just looking for the silver lining in an unideal situation here.

 

Arsenal on the other hand suffers a lot more from interrupted Unloads...

Edited by Kurugi
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Actually the ability you're thinking of is Rail Shot.

 

That change doesn't really make sense for the class fundamentally speaking since you're essentially looking to force a ranged class, that generally wants to keep as great a distance from it's enemies as possible, to have the main proc of one of it's specs tied to an ability that only has a 4m range. While it is an instant ability I don't think it would translate smoothly in actual gameplay.

 

Personally, it doesn't sting as much if/when Unload gets interrupted as a Pyro Merc, since the main reason I use Unload in the first place is to proc PPA, and whether or not it procs is determined as soon as the ability is activated. If I can get the full Unload off I just look at that as bonus damage, but that's just me.

 

Arsenal on the other hand suffers a lot more from interrupted Unloads...

 

I would only add in the ability for rail shot to proc off rocket punch along with unload and power shot. This would allow them to maintain their burst in melee where they are lacking due to interrupts. At range I agree there is no issue with pyro...but things break down when in melee and that is where the class is lacking. The abilitiy to deliver reliable damage when needed in melee range. Arsenal suffers because all of their burst is on the back end of their channeled abilities...if you can never channel you cannot deliver the burst.

 

On the first part of your reply I prefer merc over commando visually because of the multiple weapons systems the merc has vs. all commando shots coming from one cannon...commando just looks idiotic firing everything from one weapon. So I run gunnery/arsenal on my commando and and running pyro on my merc and he looks good doing it.

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Got to 40 and ran more PvP today. Pyro is a TON of fun. I'm consistently top 3 damage in warzones, and by using Rapid Shots I'm very mobile. I barely use Power Shots, to the point I'm considering taking it off my bar. I think in 4 or 5 warzones I used it maybe 3 times. Waiting for Unload to proc PPA and setting up for burst just seems a lot easier and fluidthan tying to proc PPA as often as possible. Would I do more damage? Probably. I probably should use PS more often than I am, but I find by the time I get my CGC up from Rapid Shots it's time to do my burst rotation again.
my god.....pre 50 does not matter u can own 90% of enemies with anyclass in 10-49 bracket, reminds me of another guy that posted ,,I play a lvl 20 something merc and i melt ppl, merc is fine" O_O aham; now I`m really curious myself to see what they add to each skill tree in the expansion or even if they finally change something in the next patch
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Actually they are the cake or lack there of in the merc's case. While a Powertech can fairly reliably max our a 3 second burst in the 17k range on the move the merc cannot.

Why do I get the impression that you intend to play Merc Pyro like you would PT Pyro?

 

Those are very, very different playstyles.

 

 

As for 50 vs 1-49, I didn't see an enormous difference - probably because of my LoS addiction and frequent changing of position. Check out DarthNish. He has some fun Pyro Merc vids. Granted, Mercs aren't good for rateds, but for me, solo queues as Assault Commando are more fun than solo queues with (almost) minmaxed Rage Marauder.

Edited by Helig
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my god.....pre 50 does not matter u can own 90% of enemies with anyclass in 10-49 bracket, reminds me of another guy that posted ,,I play a lvl 20 something merc and i melt ppl, merc is fine" O_O aham; now I`m really curious myself to see what they add to each skill tree in the expansion or even if they finally change something in the next patch

 

I said it was fun, I didn't say it was fine. I'm sorry people finding ways to have fun with a subpar class disgusts you so much.

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I said it was fun, I didn't say it was fine. I'm sorry people finding ways to have fun with a subpar class disgusts you so much.

all i said was that the 10-49 bracket should not come into discussion when we talk about balance, i don`t know where you got the hole disgusting part from.....

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all i said was that the 10-49 bracket should not come into discussion when we talk about balance, i don`t know where you got the hole disgusting part from.....

It's not that bad. Yes, there is a drastic difference for Gunnery, because pre-50 you're often left alone. But for Pyro? Naaaaaaaaaaaah. As long as you mind mind your positioning, at least.

 

I'd say the difference is bigger for melee - with all the geared lolsmash and bubblestun running rampart.

Edited by Helig
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all i said was that the 10-49 bracket should not come into discussion when we talk about balance, i don`t know where you got the hole disgusting part from.....

 

I never once mentioned anything regarding balance. I was stating my experiences with Pyro and asking for help in playing it better, and then talked about doing better after implementing the advice I got.

 

I ddon't know how any of that translated into me saying, "Mercs are find and don't need any adjustments". :confused:

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At that Time it was 31 Points into Arsenal, and in that pvp zone, spamming 4 tracer missiles at an on level Vanguard and then heatseeking missiles (give or take a few crits) took him from 100% to 0% in about 10 seconds

 

No awake player is going to let you get that off in a level 50 warzone.

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As an avid MMO player of 8 years my advice to the OP then would be to never. Never. NEVER choose your class based on current game balance.

 

EVER

 

Why? Because MMOs are dynamic.

 

Well, sort of. But sort of, not.

 

These games do change. But depending on how the devs are setup, the measurement tools the devs use to manage class balance may not. And there's the rub. When ToR arrived, BW had some unique, some would say - revolutionary, ingame statistical collection methods built into the game. And they relied on those heavily to manage class balance. The problem is that BW was unable to recognize how player migration across classes made those statistics irrelevant after a month or so. And to this day, BW's continued use of those ingame statistics has distorted class (im)balance. We have no reason to believe this will ever change. And that is why it is fairly predictable that certain classes that are untenable now but look very good in the ingame statistics will remain untenable.

 

Which is why in certain circumstances you *SHOULD* choose your class based on current game balance.

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I'm back to game after a few months break, decided to put aside my PT and try again my long waiting merc. as i completely agree with the downsides of a merc still can say that it's a playable class in PvP for me. I think there is not "much" difference in means of gameplay of a class between 40-50. So if a person is satisfied with the class at 40 he/she would be also at lvl50 (of lvl50 wz players r not like in 1-49 and it's completely different, but class itself is more or less the same). If you want some challenge in PvP and agree not to have high dmg as easy as like with PT Pyro then just keep playing merc.
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I'm back to game after a few months break, decided to put aside my PT and try again my long waiting merc. as i completely agree with the downsides of a merc still can say that it's a playable class in PvP for me. I think there is not "much" difference in means of gameplay of a class between 40-50. So if a person is satisfied with the class at 40 he/she would be also at lvl50 (of lvl50 wz players r not like in 1-49 and it's completely different, but class itself is more or less the same). If you want some challenge in PvP and agree not to have high dmg as easy as like with PT Pyro then just keep playing merc.

 

That's the rub. We do keep playing them. However, they are noncompetative for rateds. Nobody is going to take an AC that underperforms because they want to be challenged. They want to win so they will take and stack the successful ACs. A great player on a great class is going to be head and shoulder above a great player on a merc. If they push season one with the expansion in the spring then class balance is going to have to be looked before then otherwise they will once again lose player base.

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Why do I get the impression that you intend to play Merc Pyro like you would PT Pyro?

 

 

This is a silly statement. Merc pyro lacks the tools to be played effectively like PT pyro if they had the tools we wouldn't see threads like this. Hiding and losing is the name of the game for mercs...the more we can avoid being noticed the better, but good teams are not going to let you do that. Scrubs? yep, but not good teams.

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This is a silly statement. Merc pyro lacks the tools to be played effectively like PT pyro if they had the tools we wouldn't see threads like this. Hiding and losing is the name of the game for mercs...the more we can avoid being noticed the better, but good teams are not going to let you do that. Scrubs? yep, but not good teams.

I definitely agree that Mercs need major quality of life improvements.

 

As far as LoS-abuse goes, it's not really hiding. It's more like making yourself an uncomfortable target.

 

That said, I don't see how PT pyro and Merc pyro can be compared head to head. It also largely depends on what we call "effective". Yes, PT pyro is the king of tunnelvision burst. But Merc was designed with other aspects in mind, at least according to yellow posts. It's designed to be strong at mobile damage. However, with the current RWZ dynamics, mobility is less relevant to ranged classes than frequent, heavy direct damage spikes, interrupt and CC immunity.

 

Bottomline, Pyro Merc isn't a bad class by design. But some classes are simply much better for organized PvP, that's it. As far as solo PvP goes, the only thing I like more than Pyro merc is hybrid Darkness Sin, which is simply too fun to play with all the ridiculous utility at his disposal.

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Yes, PT pyro is the king of tunnelvision burst. But Merc was designed with other aspects in mind, at least according to yellow posts. It's designed to be strong at mobile damage...Bottomline, Pyro Merc isn't a bad class by design. But some classes are simply much better for organized PvP, that's it. As far as solo PvP goes, the only thing I like more than Pyro merc is hybrid Darkness Sin

 

Merc Pyro was not designed to be strong at mobile damage. Both the abilities it uses to proc Rail Shot are casted abilities that require standing still. PT Pyro was designed to be strong at mobile damage. Both of its abilities it uses to proc Rail Shot can be used while moving. See the difference? My theory is that Merc Pyro was designed by the devs to be a PvE build. It's key abilities are all more effective when used vs. mobs. The stun effect of TD and the lack of cleansing by mobs which allows IM to have full impact are two examples. But the game evolved in ways the devs couldn't even begin to imagine 18 months ago. And so Arsenal which I think the devs intended to be a tank-killing PvP build, is in fact worse at PvP than Merc Pyro.

 

And bottom line, Merc pyro specifically and Merc dps generally, IS badly designed. The fact that virtually no one plays it in lev 50 PvP is ipso facto evidence of that. Every other advanced class in the game has some usefulness in PvP. But not Merc dps. Want ranged dps? Take a sniper or sorc. Want utility? Take *ANY* class other than Merc. There is NO reason to have a Merc dps on your PvP team. NONE. A class that lacks any reason to exist is badly designed. You really can't argue with that.

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Like others pointed out, mercs do well in PvE, I didn't feel any class really wouldn't be viable in PvE ever.

 

If you want to PvP though, we're not viable at all atm. I won't go into too much detail, let's just say we' are in dire need of utility and defenses. Our damage is generally fine, but we're too easy to shut down and lack any serious burst in a game where pvp is defined by stun ==> smash/flameburst/backstab/snipe ==> dead.

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I recently (start of December) started leveling a Merc for fun, it just felt like a good fit for me.

 

I then looked at a spec and thought that Pyro was for me, alot of running around while pew pewing so to speak. It seemed very different from my 4x 50 Republic toons. Then I did alot of reading on this forum and watching of that amazing set of vids "dont mess with a pyro" which I found all the info I got very imformative once you removed the negative "I want a pony" posts from the equation.

 

Since I hit 50 just before Christmas ive basicly spent this holiday pvping on my Pyro Merc Dixomi and had some of the most fun ive had ever. Im in full War Hero now, just need to mod swap to finish the set up and vola.

 

We do fall apart very fast if ingaged by melee. I found that when Rakata Medpac and Kolto Overload are used at the same time, and if Energy Sheild is also up pop that as well I stand a good chance of escape.

Sure vs a good melee, I die 99% of the time, but hay, melee have always been annoyingly overpowered close up, and have way to many tools, I live with it.

 

So to sum this story up. With abit of hard work and no pre conceptions of invunrability your love the class.

Edited by Kashard
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We do fall apart very fast if ingaged by melee. I found that when Rakata Medpac and Kolto Overload are used at the same time, and if Energy Sheild is also up pop that as well I stand a good chance of escape. Sure vs a good melee, I die 99% of the time, but hay, melee have always been annoyingly overpowered close up, and have way to many tools, I live with it.

 

All you are saying is that you can do well with a Merc vs. bad players and have a 1% chance of success with a Merc vs. good players. We all knew that. You can do well vs. bad players with any class. But you also have a better than 1% chance of success vs. good players with any class other than Merc dps.

 

The issue with Merc dps buffing is that it needs to be narrowly focused. Merc dps is already competitive in PvE. And it is frankly pseudo-dominant in PvP amongst low skill players. The buff must target higher skill PvP. The following buffs do that:

 

1) Adding damage resistance while stunned, cc'ed or immobilized to a low tier skill. This isn't really applicable to PvE, and lower skill players use holds less frequently.

 

2) An increase in the lower CD timer on Jet Boost tied to 4 piece PvP gear. No effect in PvE ops. And since low skill players use their defensive abilities only sporadically, it doesn't change the balance of power there.

 

3) Adding more Accuracy to a low tier skill. Again, useless in PvE. In PvP high geared players can use the additional Accuracy to change their mod/enhancements to have more Power. Not an issue for low gear, low skill players just starting out.

 

4) Lower CD timer on Determination. Again, same dynamics as with #2 above.

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My point wasnt that we dont need a buff, its that its still a fun class to play and if we had higher numbers if we are to be looked at more closely, those who whine loudest dont always get what they want now in MMO's, thats what the statistic people are for now adays.

 

I do agree that you make some good suggestions, as are alot of them in this thread, and I hope that the class gets a buff of its own to go with the new expansion ontop of the extra 5 point stuff they are adding.

 

The accuracy issue is deffo one of my annoyances while remoding my armour and also that our rail shot cool down rarely can be used as to survive I must never stop moving and even when using Unload to proc it then moving instantly its not a 100% chance to proc so its hit and miss.

 

Id personally like to see our DoT from the Combustible Gass Cylinder be a much higher percent proc chance as at the moment its not up alot and its a spec defining ability as well as has points in it for better DoT below 30% which I feel are used used currently with 1 DoT that you can rely on.

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I have been playing a Merc since they started the servers. I did take a couple months break but I've been back for a while.

 

Here is the deal:

 

DPS:

 

PVE the dps is now fine you can be a very strong dps'er for your guilds no problem. Arsenal is easier to master but Pyros will do just fine if they learn how to master the rotation and gear properly.

 

PVP: For unrated you are pretty much ok if you learn not to 1v1 and keep moving and staying at max distance. You will be hard pressed to solo guard or assault anything. You are support for the melee classes and should learn to assist people. Pyro is easier because you need to keep moving and Pyro is slightly more mobile. For rated PVP you are going to be very frustrated. Organized teams are going to take you out first because you are an easy target. They can't leave you up because you will do a lot of damaged unchecked but not enough to warrant your team's protection they need to keep the healers and tanks up. SO most teams are going to look for other DPS classes.

 

Healer

 

Healer class is fine in pvp and pve. Some elitist will say that pve wise we are still broken but I say we are pretty good. In pve we take more skill but we can keep our assignments up just fine. In PvP merc healers are actually pretty strong and can be very viable. If you must pvp consider being a healer

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Is Mercenary worth it?

 

NO. (unless you are healing)

 

PT/VG is better in EVERY way (minus small self heals and cleanse. which has saved many a n00b healer/group :p )

 

DPS- VG/PT

Utility- VG/PT

Burst- VG/PT

Mobility- VG/PT

Tanking- VG/PT

Healing- Merc

 

i spend several hours on the training dummy yesterday, really trying to validate why my Merc is my main over my VG.

 

i could not find any non-preferential reason. i.e. performance based, VG/PT is superior. PvE, PvP, hell, i wouldn't be surprised if Merc got a debuff in space.

 

the only advantage i see as a Merc vs. VG/PT is the small heals/cleanse. especially, on SOA, LI, and other instances where an underskilled healer is overtaxed.

 

oh, and the range. but, i like to view the game, not be under the mob, shooting his junk and butt-stroking his sack.

 

*EDIT* I love Merc. VG/PT just does it better, faster. sub 50 PvP, Merc owns!! it's a fun class that really fits my playstyle.

 

i just despise mediocrity. and that is Mercenary...Mediocre.

Edited by T-Assassin
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If in a game debate we have some quotes like "why someone would play Advanced Class X instead of Advanced Class Y?", because X is too clearly inferior and/or useless for a team; you can tell that this game lacks of a good development. In a PvP match, the hole fun consists exactly in a large variant of different play styles and classes to deal. But it seems that BW only wants to see Marauders/Sentinels, Tank Assassins/Shadows and Powertechs/Vanguards in a Warzone.

Untill 1.4, I thought that it was only because they are lazy enuff to fix it. But, after 1.4, I have no doubt that it was intentional. Maybe with only 4 or 5 different classes playing, the cost of a game server becomes cheaper...

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