I'm saying that its a lot more exhausting on me and my healing partner when we're both sorcs.

 

...

 

I'm just stating that they ARE easier when you have a different healing configuration from what we normally field (and have been fielding for a while)

 

Fair enough. Running two toons of ANY same healer class in 8m is always sub optimal (in b4 "2 operatives ftw"), just because other heal classes complement or buff each other. The same is true of stacking ACs at any positions (e.g., 4 melee, 4 ranged). Can it be done? Certainly.

 

I simply disagree with the original unqualified sentiment stated:

 

its not that these operations are too hard. I think the difficulty is for the most part - just right (minus the bugs, naturally) its that they favor certain group compositions/advanced classes significantly more than others.

 

Having a diversified composition in PvE operations is always advisable when the choice is available. Your post made it sound as if the operations unfairly punished non-operative healers.

The hard modes need to be nerfed

Considering, that Hardmode OPs can be PUGed and there can be even players in it, who never saw the OP in SM before, I would politely disagree.

 

You might feel the need for a nerf, but there really isn't a reasonable argument backing your claim.

Fair enough. Running two toons of ANY same healer class in 8m is always sub optimal (in b4 "2 operatives ftw"), just because other heal classes complement or buff each other. The same is true of stacking ACs at any positions (e.g., 4 melee, 4 ranged). Can it be done? Certainly.

 

I simply disagree with the original unqualified sentiment stated:

 

 

 

Having a diversified composition in PvE operations is always advisable when the choice is available. Your post made it sound as if the operations unfairly punished non-operative healers.

 

maybe I phrased it wrong, but in general I never felt personal pressure to diversify like that in prior content. as in.. I didn't feel a significant difference in difficulty whether we fielded 2 sorcs and sorc + someone else. is all. operative + another AC seems to work out to be significantly easier than even merc + sorc or 2 sorcs. never tried 2 mercs as those of us who run them - run them as alts (me included, I'm that insane person who has every healing AC in game )

 

YMMV obviously, I'm just describing personal experiences. latest operations seem to be a lot more heavy on mobility than prior offerings. (of course giving sorcs more mobility while healing would be my preferred solution, rather then making any changes to content. hell, I may pvp on her if that happens)

maybe I phrased it wrong, but in general I never felt personal pressure to diversify like that in prior content. as in.. I didn't feel a significant difference in difficulty whether we fielded 2 sorcs and sorc + someone else. is all. operative + another AC seems to work out to be significantly easier than even merc + sorc or 2 sorcs. never tried 2 mercs as those of us who run them - run them as alts (me included, I'm that insane person who has every healing AC in game )

 

YMMV obviously, I'm just describing personal experiences. latest operations seem to be a lot more heavy on mobility than prior offerings. (of course giving sorcs more mobility while healing would be my preferred solution, rather then making any changes to content. hell, I may pvp on her if that happens)

 

Not sure what the hardest content you've run previously, but stacking 2 sorc healers in most of the current NiM content is tough in a lot of the fights. It is a breeze in HM, so I could see where you may have gotten the impression that it's not a problem. Starting with NiM Dread Guards, the first time I tried to heal it with another sorc, it was night and day versus healing with an operative or merc. I find that fight demands a lot more mobility than anything in the current ops.

 

2 sorcs is probably the most difficult healer comp to stack for 8m NiM content due to the nature of the resource regeneration. You will both be draining force and consuming health with your self-heal being the only "free" way to get it up.

 

If you're finding the mobility demands to be great in the new operation, perhaps something can be tweaked with the positioning?

 

Nefra, we space our ranged along the back with a healer on either far side, so one is always out of the circle. I usually only have to force speed out if it's on me personally. Otherwise, I stand and heal.

 

Draxus, I more or less stand in the middle and heal my "side" and interrupt corruptors.I don't really have to start moving until the guardians put their conals out, when I'll usually shift to the back.

 

Grob'thok, the only mobility challenge here is if you're getting a lot of smash interrupting your channels. This is tough on a sorc if your tanks can't get him positioned quickly and correctly.

 

Corruptor Zero, everyone more or less stacks on the boss to completely eliminate concussion mines going out. Force speed out of anti-gravity field. Having 2 sorcs here is actually nice because if you have a "slow" rdps (e.g., PT) out killing adds and gets a mine, you can pull him on to the boss.

 

Brontes, I am mostly hanging out in and around the middle until 6 finger phase. Then I stack on my finger and only move for purple circles (which are typically not that frequent). Sorc pools are nice here, you can usually get all 3 dps and the tank on the tentacle with good placement. Last phase is a natural stack.

 

Bestia, I'm mostly hanging out by the throne and just moving out of red. Occasionally I'll have to shift a little bit to get the melee dps on the tentacle if they're across the room.

 

Tyrans, we put the ranged in the back near the entrance. Whoever has simplification it is their responsibility to move out of the group. I typically pool the melee while the operative nanotechs the back. With 2 sorcs, you should be able to pool both sides. Static barriers on people with the uncleansable affliction.

 

Calphayus, we fan the ranged out along the back so whoever has the giant red circle is hitting the minimum amount of people. Then move it out of the group immediately. I typically heal the future phase first, which is a stack job right where the adds will be. In the next phase, we're only moving between crystals every 45 seconds or so, it's stack in between. For the final phase, me and an off-tank go grab crystals while the future solo tanks/heals until we get back.

 

Raptus, we are 90% stacking around the ramp. Our tanks hold him at the bottom of the ramp facing back towards the entrance. Sorc pools here reach pretty much everybody. Only real movement is when you have the "teleport" mechanic and transitioning to/from your challenge. Tanks should hold the conal/AoE steady.

 

Dread Council has a lot of people moving, but we stack heals more or less in the middle to be out of the way. During Brontes/Sytrak phase, put Styrak right on top of Brontes and stack for heals. Repeat when Brontes moves. The last phase, soft enrage, is a natural stack where 2 sorc pools will be great.

 

This is not intended to sound like a L2P post. I hope something in here might help you leverage your current group comp to clear the content.

I actually appreciate the tips! some of the things we've been doing differently (especially concussion mine positioning), so its definitely worth trying. and you are right, I currently have no experience with NIM, only hardmodes. (not counting lvl 50 content

 

(and on Nefra, its mostly terrible luck. when the droid comes out - 50% of the time, its going for me. or at least it feels like 50% of the time anyways. and I don't mean on someone in my vicinity, I mean it targets me specifically. nice for dps, since I tend to stand a little to the side and they don't have to move as much, not so nice for me :/)

 

I do love healing on my operative, its just my sorc is my baby, a character that I had since Beta (and recreated for live game) it .. galling that she's feeling less effective for me right now then my alt.

I actually appreciate the tips! some of the things we've been doing differently (especially concussion mine positioning), so its definitely worth trying. and you are right, I currently have no experience with NIM, only hardmodes. (not counting lvl 50 content

 

(and on Nefra, its mostly terrible luck. when the droid comes out - 50% of the time, its going for me. or at least it feels like 50% of the time anyways. and I don't mean on someone in my vicinity, I mean it targets me specifically. nice for dps, since I tend to stand a little to the side and they don't have to move as much, not so nice for me :/)

 

I do love healing on my operative, its just my sorc is my baby, a character that I had since Beta (and recreated for live game) it .. galling that she's feeling less effective for me right now then my alt.

 

Well having kind of hijacked this thread a little, I hope it works out for you. Sorcs are very viable in PvE, though truthfully I have more fun healing on my commando.

 

That is bad luck on Nefra, though I just force speed out and usually only lose maybe 1 GDC tops. Typically only happens 2-3 times per fight. When I'm moving back in to position, I try to do it when I would be throwing a barrier or resurgence anyway so I'm able to throw those heals on the run and not lose efficacy. If you're feeling brave, you could always keep healing until the last minute and then barrier.

 

Encourage your dps with self-cleanses (sniper evasion, operatives, mercs, etc.) to do so when the debuff goes out.

 

I will let this thread return to the OP's QQ, but if you ever wanna talk sorc healing feel free to message me here or in game. Good luck!

The point of HM and NiM is to be harder and harder as you progress. The goal is for you to develop better skills as a player not give you free loot. Spend the time reading and learning the fights, and learn your own class.

 

Also for those who keep saying 16 man is easier lol. 8 mans are much easier, now there are only a few fights that I will say are a little challenging on 8 man. Overall 16 mans are quite a bit harder.

 

I cant agree with this, in my experience, and i have all the 8 and 16 achivements, 16 is waaaayyyy more easy, in 16 theres a lot more margin for error, i.e. more people can mess it, up to the point that most encounters can be done with 14ppl, almost all can be done with 15ppl, (i mean early deaths, crashes or just afk) but theres a good number of them that cant be done with 7 in 8 mode

 

Its a common knowledge that 16 is easier than 8.

8 man ops and those flaming czerka flashppoints all need a serious nerf in the hard mode department.

No I'm not an incompetent noob, yes I know how to play.

 

The ops work fine in 16 man, but frankly the 8 man mechanics need to be toned down.

Building a 16 man mechanic then trying to shoehorn it into an 8 man clearly doesn't work.

 

I am sick to death of this impossible crap.

 

 

Deposit your flames below

 

If you make the HMs easier then we get less practice for NiM, and I support the current HM difficulty just because I need to use it to keep in top form for NiM.

I cant agree with this, in my experience, and i have all the 8 and 16 achivements, 16 is waaaayyyy more easy, in 16 theres a lot more margin for error, i.e. more people can mess it, up to the point that most encounters can be done with 14ppl, almost all can be done with 15ppl, (i mean early deaths, crashes or just afk) but theres a good number of them that cant be done with 7 in 8 mode

 

Its a common knowledge that 16 is easier than 8.

 

I agree 16man is easier. Check out all the 16man guilds downing 16man HM Dread Fortress and Dread Palace. Oh wait...there are not a lot at all. The biggest challenge to 16man is getting people on for it for a lot of guilds. That's where 8man has it easy. 8man and 16man have their strengths and weaknesses, but for you to state that 16man is easier? You couldn't be anymore wrong.

 

This post is about Hard Mode first off. Second, i'm very curious about your statement saying that you have all the 16 achievements. So you have all the nightmare ones as well, or just the hard mode ones? I ask because hard mode and nightmare are two totally different groups. If 16man truly is easier why do guilds split into two 8man groups when nightmare comes out? Why is it guilds are downing it on 8man before 16man? Is it a bit more lenient on the dps? Of course, but what you're forgetting are the mechanics. When you get early deaths can you still makeup for it? Yes, but it's the other 1-14~ that you have to worry about that can screw you over. In an 8man there is plenty of room for you to move around. In 16man not so much. You have to worry about stepping on people's toes.

 

Going back to my first statement though. For you to boldly claim that 16man is easier than 8man. No, just no. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. When it comes to raiding though. People take the easy route. People stack certain classes and what not. It's been like that in multiple games for a very long time. With that said don't you think that if 16man is easier it shouldn't really be difficult to round up 16 people and blow the 16man up every week? I mean hey if you lose a couple people during the fight why not? It's so easy right? Yet again there are only a few guilds downing the highest difficulty of content on 16man.

I agree 16man is easier. Check out all the 16man guilds downing 16man HM Dread Fortress and Dread Palace. Oh wait...there are not a lot at all. The biggest challenge to 16man is getting people on for it for a lot of guilds. That's where 8man has it easy. 8man and 16man have their strengths and weaknesses, but for you to state that 16man is easier? You couldn't be anymore wrong.

 

This post is about Hard Mode first off. Second, i'm very curious about your statement saying that you have all the 16 achievements. So you have all the nightmare ones as well, or just the hard mode ones? I ask because hard mode and nightmare are two totally different groups. If 16man truly is easier why do guilds split into two 8man groups when nightmare comes out? Why is it guilds are downing it on 8man before 16man? Is it a bit more lenient on the dps? Of course, but what you're forgetting are the mechanics. When you get early deaths can you still makeup for it? Yes, but it's the other 1-14~ that you have to worry about that can screw you over. In an 8man there is plenty of room for you to move around. In 16man not so much. You have to worry about stepping on people's toes.

 

Going back to my first statement though. For you to boldly claim that 16man is easier than 8man. No, just no. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. When it comes to raiding though. People take the easy route. People stack certain classes and what not. It's been like that in multiple games for a very long time. With that said don't you think that if 16man is easier it shouldn't really be difficult to round up 16 people and blow the 16man up every week? I mean hey if you lose a couple people during the fight why not? It's so easy right? Yet again there are only a few guilds downing the highest difficulty of content on 16man.

 

The difficulty of 16 mans is in getting 16 people to all agree on and commit to a schedule where they can all be on and raid at the same time. It's easier to do that if you only have to worry about the schedule of 8 people. I'm sorry but if that's the main challenge of 16 man, it's not that challenging. The reason why there are more 8 man guilds downing content isn't because 8 man content is easier, but because nobody cares about going through the effort of scheduling a 16 man.

 

When my guild went in for 16 man nightmare achievements it was a huge pain in the *** to find a time to all log in and raid together. We had to put off our HM DP/DF 16 man achieves this week for the same reason, some people can't make it on the time that most people could, and we chose to wait til we all could. But yeah when we did all log in for the 16 man achieves we smashed the place. It was easy and most of the raid could simply ignore mechanics entirely.

 

Personally I just don't enjoy 16 mans, that's why I don't run them. I don't care about what's easier to do, though I do think 16 mans are easier (at least from a healing perspective). Most people play this game in a way that they enjoy while still downing content. I think 16 people in mumble all talking loudly and joking around while I sit there just mindlessly heal spamming because it's irrelevant who I heal, because I have 3 back up healers to make up for my errors, is super boring and irritating. If I'm going to go through the effort of managing the schedules of 15 other people it better be actually fun. And it's not.

 

Also at least 3 people in my guild can barely run 16 mans because they run Swtor on cardboard boxes apparently. Half the time they play on like 1 fps, can't see adds (and often the boss), or see stuff to move out of. Everyone knows they hate 16 mans because of it but we still drag them there because achieves! That it's even possible to do nightmare 16 man stuff with 3 people being barely able to function should tell you something about the difficulty of it. 16 mans run terribly for a lot of people in this game, not just those few, so I wouldn't be surprised if that also impacts how many people choose to run them seriously.

 

I consider content difficult based on how much I actually have to work during the raid itself, and how much attention I have to give to the encounters. I don't judge content difficult based on time management and who gets off work at what time and who has to log early because they have a morning shift, but those reasons are why a lot of guilds don't bother with 16 man.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Michka

I am by no means a good player, so it says something that I can breeze through all content once get level 50 advanced gear and once I get advanced level 53 gear only other players can kill me. For me this isn't an issue not because I want an easy game but because once I finish a class mission it's time for me to start over. Hard mode operations are a good way to keep players engaged in playing that game once they gear up past level 50 if they don't want to reroll into another class so they need to stay extremely difficult.

The difficulty of 16 mans is in getting 16 people to all agree on and commit to a schedule where they can all be on and raid at the same time. It's easier to do that if you only have to worry about the schedule of 8 people. I'm sorry but if that's the main challenge of 16 man, it's not that challenging. The reason why there are more 8 man guilds downing content isn't because 8 man content is easier, but because nobody cares about going through the effort of scheduling a 16 man.

 

This and the rest of the post a thousand times. The "challenge" from 16m primarily comes from scheduling and framerates, not from the content itself.

 

Like I said, if we can take our 8m group on alts, and bring a bunch of other folks and pugs who have never done all the HM bosses before and one-shot most of the encounters, I wouldn't consider it difficult. I also personally find 16m less fun and primarily run it for achievements, but that has nothing to do with its relative difficulty or lack thereof.

The difficulty of 16 mans is in getting 16 people ...

 

And that's where any difficulty stops.

 

When you merge two 8-man groups for a 16 man run, that leaves you with two tanks that have to respec to DPS. Which means they need to have a dps set, which again means they need more time and effort to be available than other members of the raid.

 

16 man is just a mess on a map and with all the effects from 16 players hitting their skills make my eyes bleed. most of the time, I can't even see the thing I'm attacking or tanking. Hardly enjoyable and I'll do them only for the achievement unlock.

 

And don't even get me on the loot...

I love the way 8 man HM/Nim ops work, less people there to pick up your slack and weeds out the good players from the ok players. 16 man is boring and complete over kill. When i see a guild ranting and raving about clearing everything on 16 man and all patting themselves on the back i sit there and think i wonder how many of you would fail on an 8 man HM. Long live 8 mans i hope they never change!

 

as for the flash points i have no comments they are easy enough as it is.

 

this^^

Its a common knowledge that 16 is easier than 8.

 

lol what?

 

Every time I run an 8 man hm/nightmare it's a one shot and I think... is this story mode orrr?

 

Can't wait for 16 man nightmare for the new ops, where the true challenge will be.

LOL. This is just comical. You do realize your talking about HM content where your bringing in 16 over geared people. When you do that its gonna be a lot easier. Try doing the Nightmare content at the minimum gear level or less during progression and then you will have the right to say which is easier or harder. The ignorance of people who have not even done the content at the nightmare level when its relevant is unreal.

 

That being said, 16 mans and 8 mans present their own challenges in different ways. I actually do run progression with a 16 man guild and an 8 man guild when the content is relevant and the gear level is at its minimum. At that point I feel certain bosses are harder on 8 man and certain on 16 man. It all depends on the mechanics and requirements of the fight.

 

People should really learn to stop talking about something they have no experience with, its really laughable and pathetic. I know everyone wants to feel like they have the biggest e-peen and they are doing harder content better then everyone else but try looking at it from a rational perspective instead of just running your mouths with nothing to back them up.

 

That's all, had to get that off my chest....Thanks.

Fair enough. Running two toons of ANY same healer class in 8m is always sub optimal (in b4 "2 operatives ftw"), just because other heal classes complement or buff each other. The same is true of stacking ACs at any positions (e.g., 4 melee, 4 ranged). Can it be done? Certainly.

 

I simply disagree with the original unqualified sentiment stated:

 

 

 

Having a diversified composition in PvE operations is always advisable when the choice is available. Your post made it sound as if the operations unfairly punished non-operative healers.

 

 

I have never been in a situation where i have loved a player so much without knowing them and you clearly know what you are talking about. My guild learnt that having different classes instead of having the same will always make for better raiding but having two of the same does not make it impossible plox nerf content! back when EC Nim was the best content.

 

I think because operative healers might pull bigger numbers over the duration of the fight does not make them the better healer and people need to realise this. I run with a sorc healer and even though we have never tried two op healers i feel like we would fail on some bosses (council, corrupter zero or any boss that depends on raid wide aoes and stacking) my heals can not cover the whole raid well enough without a sorc throwing down some aoe and buffing the whole team also bubbles... Bubbles man saves us all so much effort.

I have never been in a situation where i have loved a player so much without knowing them and you clearly know what you are talking about. My guild learnt that having different classes instead of having the same will always make for better raiding but having two of the same does not make it impossible plox nerf content! back when EC Nim was the best content.

 

I think because operative healers might pull bigger numbers over the duration of the fight does not make them the better healer and people need to realise this. I run with a sorc healer and even though we have never tried two op healers i feel like we would fail on some bosses (council, corrupter zero or any boss that depends on raid wide aoes and stacking) my heals can not cover the whole raid well enough without a sorc throwing down some aoe and buffing the whole team also bubbles... Bubbles man saves us all so much effort.

 

if you read a bit more what I said - i never said it was impossible and that it should be nerfed. on the contrary, after all - we've been running sorc heavy for a while now.

 

all I said is that I'm having much MUCH smoother time when healing latest content on my operative vs my sorc. mainly because of how much movement is required (that in part makes my revivification less useful - unlike operative/merc AoE that doesn't require you to group up in one small area and stand there for a bit, in order to get a full effect of it). it has nothing to do with raw numbers and everything to do with how much downtime there is due to moving around (which on an operative? is basically zero)

sorc is the most stationary healer out of all 3 specs, I have the least amount of things I can do on the move (yes, that includes shield spam, once everyone is shielded.. I'm now sitting on a cooldown)

that said, I did get some suggestions on how to minimize movement I'd have to deal with and i will most certainly try them out next week. and who knows, maybe I'll feel less drained and less frustrated with my sorc again. naturally, giving sorc healers more mobility is a hope of mine.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Jeweledleah

I have never been in a situation where i have loved a player so much without knowing them and you clearly know what you are talking about.

 

Thanks for the love, bro. I'm just glad that most of the posters in this thread overwhelmingly agree that HM is tuned appropriately. Sorry the same pugs who faceroll SM TFB for comms can't just walk in.

 

naturally, giving sorc healers more mobility is a hope of mine.

 

I actually like where the sorc is PvE-wise. If they gained more mobility, that would take away some of the natural advantages the operatives have. I appreciate that each healer more or less occupies a niche. I agree something probably needs to be done for PvP, but that is a separate discussion.

 

I will try to convince our mara to come on his sorc healer for one of our runs in the next week or so and double sorc heal to see how much of an issue it is. To be fair, our group has been farming HM for weeks and is in virtually full 78 DF aside from relics/ears/implants so it might not be a fair assessment.

the Czerka FPs too hard? I pug those all the time and end up with people with sub-black market gear and no issues. The only time they are hard is when the tank doesn't know how to move the sandstorm boss to the generators.

 

Should have done HM Lost Island back when it was released, now THAT was hard.

Edited November 16, 2013 by chuixupu

I will try to convince our mara to come on his sorc healer for one of our runs in the next week or so and double sorc heal to see how much of an issue it is. To be fair, our group has been farming HM for weeks and is in virtually full 78 DF aside from relics/ears/implants so it might not be a fair assessment.

 

I'm sorry, Bro but me + healing = no bueno. But for you, I'll try anything to appease my healers <3

Should have done HM Lost Island back when it was released, now THAT was hard.

 

^^ This a thousand times.....

 

It was the start of the end for SWTOR. I thought it was brilliant idea to have something acutally "hard" that didn't require a full ops group to run. You could get together 4 experienced peeps to run through something challenging. It felt like you actually accomplished something when you completed it...... THEN, in came the nerf bat because so many people were crying. Then they nerfed it again because it was still too hard..... Since then, they seem to nerf things until there really isn't any satisfaction in finishing anything.

 

I read a good post earlier about the balancing act the BW team has. Make it easy enough to keep the masses coming back for more and hard enough to challenge the HC teams. I have no answers on how to find the middle ground but it frustrates me that they keep nerfing and nerfing everything. I don't think everyone should be able to clear ALL content. Top tier content should only be cleared by the top tier players. If you want to join them, L2P properly and join in on the fun/challenge.

 

With how easy it is to grind reasonable (not BIS) gear with comms, everyone SHOULD be clearing all content. When the NiM DF/DP ops drop, i hope it seperates the casual players from the HC players again. At the moment current content has become a little soft. This is before they nerf it and make it available to all...... again.......

I'm sorry, Bro but me + healing = no bueno. But for you, I'll try anything to appease my healers <3

 

But think of all the friendly extricates into the exploding droids in DF...

^^ This a thousand times.....

 

It was the start of the end for SWTOR. I thought it was brilliant idea to have something acutally "hard" that didn't require a full ops group to run. You could get together 4 experienced peeps to run through something challenging. It felt like you actually accomplished something when you completed it...... THEN, in came the nerf bat because so many people were crying. Then they nerfed it again because it was still too hard..... Since then, they seem to nerf things until there really isn't any satisfaction in finishing anything.

 

I read a good post earlier about the balancing act the BW team has. Make it easy enough to keep the masses coming back for more and hard enough to challenge the HC teams. I have no answers on how to find the middle ground but it frustrates me that they keep nerfing and nerfing everything. I don't think everyone should be able to clear ALL content. Top tier content should only be cleared by the top tier players. If you want to join them, L2P properly and join in on the fun/challenge.

 

With how easy it is to grind reasonable (not BIS) gear with comms, everyone SHOULD be clearing all content. When the NiM DF/DP ops drop, i hope it seperates the casual players from the HC players again. At the moment current content has become a little soft. This is before they nerf it and make it available to all...... again.......

 

I remember my guilds first clear of it. *********** awesome. still the happiest ive been with clearing any content aside from NiM Dread Guards. But i really do agree, nerf hammers started dropping left and right after that first LI nerf and it looks like its going to get worse.

But think of all the friendly extricates into the exploding droids in DF...

 

Who's got Dave and who's got Cho?