Then Traya is down one pawn and Revan is down half of his command structure, his effectiveness just took a big hit.

 

 

 

But Revan hasn't turned his men yet, they have never even been to Malachor V, Traya would be able to easily cripple his chain of command and remove his best generals, etc... leavimg him with no way to properly command his vast forces, it turns into a war of attrition where Revan's forces aren't going to get their supplies when needed, he isn't going to be around to command all of them at the same time AND his men are going to be wondering where entire divisions disappeared to overnight.

 

Revan is currently in a logistical nightmare that Traya will only ever make worse, his best generals/admirals were part of the reason he was so successful, then when Jedi start filling up Traya's forces, she starts have the force user numbers advantage, with Jedi turning to the Malachor teachigngs that had the Jedi destroyed in the first place.

 

Basically, the size of Revan's fleet is it's weakness, eventually he will be left with two choices, go turtle mode or attack full on, the first idea won't work because Traya would have already ground down the forces that Revan commanded, the second leads to the utter destruction of his fleet.

 

Revan is the Erwin Rommel here, but Traya is the Albert Speer, she can make something out of nothing.

Well, I strongly disagree with you, and in past posts I've already explained why. I won't bother repeating myself.

Multiple Hammerhead Cruisers is not the Republic fleet.

No they are not, but the Ravager took out all of them single-handedly.

The Jedi Exile and Mandos destroyed one ship. What about the rest of the fleet? Unless Traya's fleet is only one ship...?

They destroyed the Ravager, which was the most advanced ship in the Republic fleet, it was thrown off the production line very quickly and sent to the frontlines of Dxun, where it crippled five Mandalorian cruisers, only a couple of these Centurion classes were ever built and they were the heavyweights in the Republic defence fleets, namely in the Inner rim, the Ravager as I stated earlier was the most advanced of these.

It is actually the best ship yet constructed and is capable of the same role as an Imperial II class Star Destroyer, not with quite the same firepower, but then again it is not fighting against Mon Calamari cruisers is it?

Then consider the fact that the fleet consisted of the remnants of the Star Forge fleet, each of these being extremely powerful, the same ships that battered the Republic fleet during the Jedi Civil War.

Then consider that the bulk of Revan's fleet was merely Hammerhead cruisers and you begin to see the point.

1) Nihilus' powerbase is Traya's powerbase. Though we cannot use Nihilus, his forces are still hers both at the beginning and the end of the Sith Triumverate.

 

2) Meetra Surik cannot be used, and the only reason she was able to defeat the Sith Assassins was because of her insensitivity to the force. That is explained after her first encounter with the assassins aboard the harbinger.

P.S. Yes it does. Learn a bit of Military history, paranoia, sleep deprivation, terrorism all have huge psychological impacts on wars.

 

3) Darth Traya has both Nihilus and Darth Sion on her side, as well as their power bases. We aren't allowed to use the other two Sith Lords but we are allowed access to their power bases. If this were a valid argument then I could also argue that Revan has no allies because his forces become darksiders and eventually he's just a hermit on a Rakata super weapon with just a few Jedi and Republic supporters.

 

4) No. Deception, betrayal, -stealth- are all effective weapons during wartime. She is the Lord of Betrayals because she has been betrayed, betrayed much more than she betrays, in fact. She is a cunning sith, her mind is her greatest asset, not her shtick for betrayal.

 

5) Yes, assassins because of their ability to easily kill Force Adepts, Meetra excluded because of her condition. This is a hypothetical battle scenario, meaning we can cut out the hesitation, cut out her fondness for Revan. At any rate, even if that were a valid point, everything Traya has done has been deliberate and without hesitation. Her decisiveness is one of her more memorable qualities.

 

She was the death of the Jedi Order and Revan's teacher. More than a match for him.

1.) Right, sorry, I got that now. I made assumptions, sorry. Unfortunately, as I said, Revan's fleet would easily destroy Traya's. We've actually seen the Republic defeat it before, at Telos.

2.) I have yet to see how Revan is to be affected by these assassins. He is very strong willed himself, and particulary immune to the effects of fear (as per Wookieepedia). How do thses assassins work? If it's a battle of willpoweer, Revan will win every time.

P.S. Let me rephrase: psychological impacts don't loose wars.

3.) What are those two Lord's powerbases? I was under the impression that they're one and the same... Sion didn't have any troops, and Nihlius's fleet belonged to Traya... Revan still has far more resources and allies.

4.) While deception, betrayal, and stealth are nice, they won't win a war against an army like the Republic's. If Traya had a fleet that could stand up to Revan's, then she might have an advantage. But trying to counter a forward assault with an underhand stragegy won't turn out well if you have no troops to buy time.

5.) I still think Revan's willpower would win over assassins. As for Traya, She loved the Exile. I'm sure she loved Revan too. Traya hestitated long enough to have a conversation with Meetra, I'm sure she would want to talk to Revan before she tried to kill/sever him too.

1.) Right, sorry, I got that now. I made assumptions, sorry. Unfortunately, as I said, Revan's fleet would easily destroy Traya's. We've actually seen the Republic defeat it before, at Telos.

 

2.) I have yet to see how Revan is to be affected by these assassins. He is very strong willed himself, and particulary immune to the effects of fear (as per Wookieepedia). How do thses assassins work? If it's a battle of willpoweer, Revan will win every time.

P.S. Let me rephrase: psychological impacts don't loose wars.

 

3.) What are those two Lord's powerbases? I was under the impression that they're one and the same... Sion didn't have any troops, and Nihlius's fleet belonged to Traya... Revan still has far more resources and allies.

 

4.) While deception, betrayal, and stealth are nice, they won't win a war against an army like the Republic's. If Traya had a fleet that could stand up to Revan's, then she might have an advantage. But trying to counter a forward assault with an underhand stragegy won't turn out well if you have no troops to buy time.

 

5.) I still think Revan's willpower would win over assassins. As for Traya, She loved the Exile. I'm sure she loved Revan too. Traya hestitated long enough to have a conversation with Meetra, I'm sure she would want to talk to Revan before she tried to kill/sever him too.

Oh she did love Revan! She thought very highly of him, as she displayed several times in KOTOR 2.

No they are not, but the Ravager took out all of them single-handedly.

 

 

 

They destroyed the Ravager, which was the most advanced ship in the Republic fleet, it was thrown off the production line very quickly and sent to the frontlines of Dxun, where it crippled five Mandalorian cruisers, only a couple of these Centurion classes were ever built and they were the heavyweights in the Republic defence fleets, namely in the Inner rim, the Ravager as I stated earlier was the most advanced of these.

 

It is actually the best ship yet constructed and is capable of the same role as an Imperial II class Star Destroyer, not with quite the same firepower, but then again it is not fighting against Mon Calamari cruisers is it?

 

Then consider the fact that the fleet consisted of the remnants of the Star Forge fleet, each of these being extremely powerful, the same ships that battered the Republic fleet during the Jedi Civil War.

 

Then consider that the bulk of Revan's fleet was merely Hammerhead cruisers and you begin to see the point.

Did it take them out by itself? I'm not so sure.... do you have a source?

I think you're missing my point. Traya's fleet was defeated at Telos. In KOTORII. The Ravager was just one ship. The others were destroyed by Republic forces. And this was at a time when the Republic was weaker than during Revan's time.

I think Telos proves that Revan's fleet would be more than a match for Traya's, even with the Ravager.

Did it take them out by itself? I'm not so sure.... do you have a source?

 

 

I think you're missing my point. Traya's fleet was defeated at Telos. In KOTORII. The Ravager was just one ship. The others were destroyed by Republic forces. And this was at a time when the Republic was weaker than during Revan's time.

 

I think Telos proves that Revan's fleet would be more than a match for Traya's, even with the Ravager.

Once the Ravager fell, the rest of the ships were destroyed. The Ravager would have secured victory in the space battle of Telos if it weren't for the actions of Meetra and Mandalore.

Did it take them out by itself? I'm not so sure.... do you have a source?

'Unseen, Unheard' Star Wars Tales 24

I think you're missing my point. Traya's fleet was defeated at Telos. In KOTORII. The Ravager was just one ship. The others were destroyed by Republic forces. And this was at a time when the Republic was weaker than during Revan's time.

 

I think Telos proves that Revan's fleet would be more than a match for Traya's, even with the Ravager.

Actually the battle is listed as a stalemate until the Ravager, the Triumvirate's capital ship is destroyed along with the commander Darth Nihilus, this sends the fleet into disarray.

Oh and just to clear something up, there were three powerbases in the Triumvirate: Sion's cult of assassins, Nihilus' fleet which was a vast collection of ships that joined the Sith at Malachor following the war, which also contained Interdictor class warships and the large prototype of the Centurion class, with random Sith and assassins, along with warbeasts making up the bulk of his forces, then Traya's powerbase which is made up of all remaining Sith and Dark Jedi, a lot of them.

I don't even have to read everything, I already know this is gonna come down to MasterMe and Aurbere

Too bad I didn't get here earlier, I wanted to say "Let the Fanboy Games begin!"

Actually the battle is listed as a stalemate until the Ravager, the Triumvirate's capital ship is destroyed along with the commander Darth Nihilus, this sends the fleet into disarray.

If Nihllius is not in the battle then his fleet is in disarray? If he's not allowed in this Kaggath his fleet seems useless then.

If Nihllius is not in the battle then his fleet is in disarray? If he's not allowed in this Kaggath his fleet seems useless then.

I mean the commander was killed, just like in any other battle, if your commander is killed, the fleet doesn't know what to do with itself and either flees or gets destroyed.

You took my statement too literally.

'Unseen, Unheard' Star Wars Tales 24

 

 

 

 

Actually the battle is listed as a stalemate until the Ravager, the Triumvirate's capital ship is destroyed along with the commander Darth Nihilus, this sends the fleet into disarray.

 

Oh and just to clear something up, there were three powerbases in the Triumvirate: Sion's cult of assassins, Nihilus' fleet which was a vast collection of ships that joined the Sith at Malachor following the war, which also contained Interdictor class warships and the large prototype of the Centurion class, with random Sith and assassins, along with warbeasts making up the bulk of his forces, then Traya's powerbase which is made up of all remaining Sith and Dark Jedi, a lot of them.

Right, but Revan commanded an army significantly bigger/better then the Republic did during the Battle of Telos. Keep that in mind. The Republic was WAY better off before the Jedi Civil War. Remember: Revan's powerbase comes from the early Mandalorian War. These are two VERY different Republics we're talking about here....

1.) Right, sorry, I got that now. I made assumptions, sorry. Unfortunately, as I said, Revan's fleet would easily destroy Traya's. We've actually seen the Republic defeat it before, at Telos.

 

2.) I have yet to see how Revan is to be affected by these assassins. He is very strong willed himself, and particulary immune to the effects of fear (as per Wookieepedia). How do thses assassins work? If it's a battle of willpoweer, Revan will win every time.

P.S. Let me rephrase: psychological impacts don't loose wars.

 

3.) What are those two Lord's powerbases? I was under the impression that they're one and the same... Sion didn't have any troops, and Nihlius's fleet belonged to Traya... Revan still has far more resources and allies.

 

4.) While deception, betrayal, and stealth are nice, they won't win a war against an army like the Republic's. If Traya had a fleet that could stand up to Revan's, then she might have an advantage. But trying to counter a forward assault with an underhand stragegy won't turn out well if you have no troops to buy time.

 

5.) I still think Revan's willpower would win over assassins. As for Traya, She loved the Exile. I'm sure she loved Revan too. Traya hestitated long enough to have a conversation with Meetra, I'm sure she would want to talk to Revan before she tried to kill/sever him too.

You are stating what you think, which is not the same as what is.

1) It took Meetra Surik, Mandalore, Visas Marr, the Republic, Onderon, and the Mandalorians to destroy the Ravager and defeat the Sith at Telos. Napoleon was ultimately defeated-twice-is he not still regarded as one of the greatest military minds of all time? You don't have a valid point to make here, you simply "feel" a certain way about it. You've never seen Revan's fleet defeated before? Oh, goodness. If not seeing something were the same as knowing something was not... It's like saying "I've never seen the Patriots lose this season, so surely they're not going to lose!"

2) Ignorance. The assassins work by feeding off their oponent's strength. It is not a battle of willpower, it is a matching of power. The assassins are similar to Darth Nihilus because of their ability to feed off of the force. They become stronger when their prey is stronger in the force. That results in the death of every jedi under Revan's command and the strengthening of Traya's forces.

P.S. Larger armies don't win wars either. Look at conflicts across the world today for proof of that.

3) It was a reiteration of my previous point to answer your statement. Everyone under Sion's and Nihilus' control is under Traya's control for this Kaggath. That means a fleet of warships, Sith military, the Ravager, Sith Assassins that feed off the force, and the scores of Sith Lords, Marauders, Apprentices and Masters that also followed the SIth Triumverate. At any rate, you don't win a conflict with numbers alone. Cunning and strategy account for far more than Revan's troops, and Revan is not in a position to be nearly as cunning, ruthless, or effective as Traya's forces.

4) She does have troops, she does have a fleet, but the entire point is that she needs no fleet in order to destroy Revan. The loss of the Harbinger proves that. No, you don't need a decoy ship to pull it off, you could hypothetically plant groups of assassins everywhere across the galaxy where Revan's forces travel, just sneak them on all of his ships and, like a cancer, become quite malign and rip Revan's power base from under him. Revan cannot do the same.

5) Willpower has nothing to do with it, emotion has nothing to do with it because this is a hypothetical battle. Don't get me wrong, you can "say" Traya might hesitate, but then so might Revan because she was one of his most influential instructors. You can also say she might not. That's not a very strong argument to make

Right, but Revan commanded an army significantly bigger/better then the Republic did during the Battle of Telos. Keep that in mind. The Republic was WAY better off before the Jedi Civil War. Remember: Revan's powerbase comes from the early Mandalorian War. These are two VERY different Republics we're talking about here....

I am not stating the navies are comparable, but I am making the assertion that in skirmishes across different sectors, this one armada could take on any collection of ships put forth by Revan, unless it was an overwhelming large force, in which case, they'd never engage it anyway.

It is like Vader's Death Squadron, obviously it would not take on every ship the rebels had, but it could take on massive amounts of rebel ships and still be victorious.

I also want to make it clear that Sion had his own fleet as well, but it was rarely seen and was not of similar size to Nihilus' armada.

Right, but Revan commanded an army significantly bigger/better then the Republic did during the Battle of Telos. Keep that in mind. The Republic was WAY better off before the Jedi Civil War. Remember: Revan's powerbase comes from the early Mandalorian War. These are two VERY different Republics we're talking about here....

Same ships, different cannon fodder.

Same ships, different cannon fodder.

Seriously? It's canon that Revan's fleet would have been significantly bigger then the Republic fleet during the battle of Telos. Are you disagreeing with this? Here's the difference of the Republic of these 2 times:

Republic during the Mandalorian Wars

- experienced 30 years of peace before war they're in way better shape for a war

Republic of the Battle of Telos

- had experienced the Mando War, Jedi Civil War, and was in the midst of the Dark War.

Difference = huge

Please accept that.

Seriously? It's canon that Revan's fleet would have been significantly bigger then the Republic fleet during the battle of Telos. Are you disagreeing with this? Here's the difference of the Republic of these 2 times:

 

Republic during the Mandalorian Wars

- experienced 30 years of peace before war they're in way better shape for a war

 

Republic of the Battle of Telos

- had experienced the Mando War, Jedi Civil War, and was in the midst of the Dark War.

 

Difference = huge

 

Please accept that.

While Revan's fleet is much larger than that of the one Nihilus faced at Telos, it is highly unlikely that they will bring everything to bear on one fleet. If they did, the Ravager and its fleet would just leave. There is no need to engage in a battle that you can't win. If the Ravager fleet fought a standard Republic fleet, the Republic would lose.

You are stating what you think, which is not the same as what is.

 

1) It took Meetra Surik, Mandalore, Visas Marr, the Republic, Onderon, and the Mandalorians to destroy the Ravager and defeat the Sith at Telos. Napoleon was ultimately defeated-twice-is he not still regarded as one of the greatest military minds of all time? You don't have a valid point to make here, you simply "feel" a certain way about it. You've never seen Revan's fleet defeated before? Oh, goodness. If not seeing something were the same as knowing something was not... It's like saying "I've never seen the Patriots lose this season, so surely they're not going to lose!"

 

2) Ignorance. The assassins work by feeding off their oponent's strength. It is not a battle of willpower, it is a matching of power. The assassins are similar to Darth Nihilus because of their ability to feed off of the force. They become stronger when their prey is stronger in the force. That results in the death of every jedi under Revan's command and the strengthening of Traya's forces.

P.S. Larger armies don't win wars either. Look at conflicts across the world today for proof of that.

 

3) It was a reiteration of my previous point to answer your statement. Everyone under Sion's and Nihilus' control is under Traya's control for this Kaggath. That means a fleet of warships, Sith military, the Ravager, Sith Assassins that feed off the force, and the scores of Sith Lords, Marauders, Apprentices and Masters that also followed the SIth Triumverate. At any rate, you don't win a conflict with numbers alone. Cunning and strategy account for far more than Revan's troops, and Revan is not in a position to be nearly as cunning, ruthless, or effective as Traya's forces.

 

4) She does have troops, she does have a fleet, but the entire point is that she needs no fleet in order to destroy Revan. The loss of the Harbinger proves that. No, you don't need a decoy ship to pull it off, you could hypothetically plant groups of assassins everywhere across the galaxy where Revan's forces travel, just sneak them on all of his ships and, like a cancer, become quite malign and rip Revan's power base from under him. Revan cannot do the same.

 

5) Willpower has nothing to do with it, emotion has nothing to do with it because this is a hypothetical battle. Don't get me wrong, you can "say" Traya might hesitate, but then so might Revan because she was one of his most influential instructors. You can also say she might not. That's not a very strong argument to make

I do appriciate the irony of you telling me my points are only what I think, while youre the one insulting me...

1.) You also have no proof Traya's fleet would win against Revan's. For sure without Nihillius. I "feel", based on facts, that Revan would win. Obviously you are free to disagree.

2.) Knowledge(?). http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Assassin So wait.... assassins kill Force Sensitives, but can't do much against normal soldiers.... well, that's a problem. Mira faced one and survived, I'm sure Republic troops could too. So each Jedi just needs a normal-person escort? Problem solved!

3.) "Cunning and strategy account for far more than Revan's troops, and Revan is not in a position to be nearly as cunning, ruthless, or effective as Traya's forces": I don't understand how that's a valid argument if it's how you "feel" about it. Revanwas a great stragegist. He actually adapted to his opponents (Mandos) so what's to say he wouldn't do so again?

4.) So.... the assassins will assassinate Revan's entire army?

5.) Revan and Traya have a relationship. That's a fact. They both feel for each other. Traya loves him, called him the heart of the Force. The question is, who would strike first? Revan is pretty ruthless.

Sorry for crowding the pages, y'all!

Seriously? It's canon that Revan's fleet would have been significantly bigger then the Republic fleet during the battle of Telos. Are you disagreeing with this? Here's the difference of the Republic of these 2 times:

 

Republic during the Mandalorian Wars

- experienced 30 years of peace before war they're in way better shape for a war

 

Republic of the Battle of Telos

- had experienced the Mando War, Jedi Civil War, and was in the midst of the Dark War.

 

Difference = huge

 

Please accept that.

I meant literally same ship types. Also, let me emphasize the second part of my quote, "Different cannon fodder". again there's no guarantee that the larger fleet at Revan's disposal is even an effective advantage given the nature of the Dark War sith. 30 years of peace also means 30 years of atrophied war instinct. Yeah, Revan is a great leader and he made up for the Mandalorian's capability versus the Republic greenhorns, but his armies are still naive, "green", unlike the Veteran Sith forces under Traya's command, all Force capabilities aside.

And oh my god if I actually have to explain what makes the Sith forces veteran forces I will have a heart attack.

I do appriciate the irony of you telling me my points are only what I think, while youre the one insulting me...

 

1.) You also have no proof Traya's fleet would win against Revan's. For sure without Nihillius. I "feel", based on facts, that Revan would win. Obviously you are free to disagree.

 

2.) Knowledge(?). http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Assassin So wait.... assassins kill Force Sensitives, but can't do much against normal soldiers.... well, that's a problem. Mira faced one and survived, I'm sure Republic troops could too. So each Jedi just needs a normal-person escort? Problem solved!

 

3.) "Cunning and strategy account for far more than Revan's troops, and Revan is not in a position to be nearly as cunning, ruthless, or effective as Traya's forces": I don't understand how that's a valid argument if it's how you "feel" about it. Revanwas a great stragegist. He actually adapted to his opponents (Mandos) so what's to say he wouldn't do so again?

 

4.) So.... the assassins will assassinate Revan's entire army?

 

5.) Revan and Traya have a relationship. That's a fact. They both feel for each other. Traya loves him, called him the heart of the Force. The question is, who would strike first? Revan is pretty ruthless.

 

Sorry for crowding the pages, y'all!

Wrong.

1) Yes, there's no definitive proof either way but I give specific reasons for the defeat at Telos, you give feelings.

2) Okay, WRONG. Go back to Wookiepedia, or better yet Play KOTOR 2 again because you obviously were not paying attention to the events of the Harbinger. Jedi = Dead, normal troops just as much.

3) We are not accounting for adaptability, this is a hypothetical Kaggath match with both power bases as they were with the previously established limitations - Revan's forces as they were during the Mandalorian Wars, and Traya's forces. Even if you argue "adaptability", you're mary-sueing your way out of the fight. Revan's adaptability is easily countered by Traya's ability to sever individuals from the force, so who's to say she can't do that immediately to Revan and his Jedi and end the fight right there. She did it to three Jedi Masters, I'm sure she can take down droves of Knights easily and even sever Revan, unless you want to Mary-Sue your way out of that one too. See how silly it gets? And before you say Meetra Surik, I encourage you to actually look up and understand the circumstances that allowed Meetra to become immune to the Force Bond the two shared and keep Traya from severing her from the force.

4) Actually, that's not too far off. That is exactly what happened with the Harbinger. Crew members started suddenly disappearing... and, well, you ought to know what happened after that. There were no survivors save for the Exile, the droids HK-50, T3-M4, HK-47 (barely), and Kreia herself, who was there to save the Exile anyways, who all are "hero"-class characters.

5) it's like you're slamming your head against a brick wall and expecting to break it before your head breaks. Revan is now pretty ruthless? Do you have evidence of this? You are really making this assertion even though at this point he still has all his memories of his mentor and is not full darkside? When Traya is darkside and Traya's own actions against Meetra, the "other one she loved" were actually documented and can be labeled objectively ruthless? LOL, ok.

So, I've decided not to address any arguments that I feel are personal attacks, as to not encourage them to continue.

4) Actually, that's not too far off. That is exactly what happened with the Harbinger. Crew members started suddenly disappearing... and, well, you ought to know what happened after that. There were no survivors save for the Exile, the droids HK-50, T3-M4, HK-47 (barely), and Kreia herself, who was there to save the Exile anyways, who all are "hero"-class characters.

It happened on the Harbringer, but any other ships? I fail to see how an entire army could be destroyed by assassins... and even if it could, it would take a long time. Enough time for Revan to win. Also, if the assassins could single-handedly take down the Republic, why didn't they?

I will say a little something about my "Revan is ruthless" comment before I stop responding to this little continuation of arguments "Blazing Shadow" and I have going on here. Revan was a true patriot. Or maybe he just liked to fight. Either way, he defied the council and fought for the Republic. If he discovers his old master has turned to the darkside, he will have no problem defeating her for the good of the Republic and the Jedi. And to win the war. Because he likes winning.

So, I've decided not to address any arguments that I feel are personal attacks, as to not encourage them to continue.

 

 

 

It happened on the Harbringer, but any other ships? I fail to see how an entire army could be destroyed by assassins... and even if it could, it would take a long time. Enough time for Revan to win. Also, if the assassins could single-handedly take down the Republic, why didn't they?

 

I will say a little something about my "Revan is ruthless" comment before I stop responding to this little continuation of arguments "Blazing Shadow" and I have going on here. Revan was a true patriot. Or maybe he just liked to fight. Either way, he defied the council and fought for the Republic. If he discovers his old master has turned to the darkside, he will have no problem defeating her for the good of the Republic and the Jedi. And to win the war. Because he likes winning.

And that is your downfall.

OK everybody seems to be forgetting something: Revan wins the all-out battle.

Yes, Traya has some veteran soldiers (Revan has a few as well - like Carth Onasi). Ans Yes, she has the Ravager, but Revan has MANY more ships, men, and he is also a better general then Traya. Traya just wasn't made for conventional warfare. She knows one type of war (and it is a effective type) - and she just isn't a great general. Also (as I said earlier) she doesn't have much faith in soldiers and tech. This is a disadvantage for her.

So (once again) Revan wins in a legit battle.

So the only way Traya is gonna win is one of 2 things (which I've only stated like 100 times): Either her assassin techniques somehow create enough chaos to bring her victory

OR

Revan makes a BIG mistake, like throwing his entire army Traya's entire army at Malachor V (this ain't gonna happen)

So (as I've said) this comes down to a prolonged war. In this war, the assassins will play a significant role. But how effective are they? Can they kill men? Yes. Can they turn large numbers of Revan's men against him? No. Revan's men are too loyal to him (please don't make me explain why again) AND Revan wouldn't allow chaos to ensue among his ranks.

So, in the end, Traya's only military advantage is her guerilla tactics and her assassins (which were created by Revan). Is Revan not also capable of such warfare? Obviously if he was to start training assassins they wouldn't be AS affective as Traya's. But nevertheless, this is a game that two can play. So with that in mind, let's remember that Revan created these assassins. This prooves that he is capable of such warfare.

A few things to point out.

First, as to whether it was common knowledge that Kreia, Arren Kae or Traya (whichever you want to call her), was Revan's master. My belief is that it is not. This may be common knowledge to the Jedi but Revan may not have shared this information with many since the Exile did not know before meeting Kreia. And we know that Meetra Surik and Revan were close. She was one of Revan's generals in the Mandalorian wars. With that thought, people are NOT going to follow Kreia just because she was Revan's master if this was nothing something shared outside of Jedi circles. As for Kreia herself, she had a disdain for those who were not force sensitives. More on that later.

Secondly, Kreia herself admitted she was not a natural born leader like Revan was. We also never get a clue of the armies she commands. Remember, Kreia was a historian, a librarian who fell to the dark side because of the knowledge she gathered but also because she desired to do more. She desired to take the stance that Revan had which is what led to her ostracized from the Jedi Order. But her armies did not come until after the she joined forces with the Sith triumvirate and began to train assassins at the Trayus academy she founded AFTER the Jedi civil war. So her armies up until then were non existent.

Now if we are pitting the armies they held during that era against each other it becomes trickier. Kreia's army came after the Jedi Civil war. Revan's were during and before. So now we have Kreia commanding her Sith assassins and Revan commanding the Republic and then his Sith that he converted to his cause during the Mandalorian wars. If this is the case then Revan wins. If not then we dispose of this part of the argument.

Now assuming the above paragraph is omitted because of timeline eras, then Kreia has no army to speak of. She never held an army until she began to train them AFTER Revan's capture by the Jedi. At this point Malak is in control of the Sith Empire and Kreia is still training her assassins in secret. So now, Kreia has no real powerbase, just the force and MAYBE a few allies. All cards at this point are stacked in Revans favor.

So now lets strip them of their armies. In a lightsaber duel it would be a tough fight but I would give it to Revan. Even Kreia was in awe of his prowess in battle and connection the force. Kreia does have a powerful connection to the Force in that she can heal her wounds, go into stasis to preserve her strength, and use the force offensively. But so can Revan and he his more of a blademaster than Kreia ever was.

In the end, I have to give it to Revan. The student becomes the Master.

OK everybody seems to be forgetting something: Revan wins the all-out battle.

 

Yes, Traya has some veteran soldiers (Revan has a few as well - like Carth Onasi). Ans Yes, she has the Ravager, but Revan has MANY more ships, men, and he is also a better general then Traya. Traya just wasn't made for conventional warfare. She knows one type of war (and it is a effective type) - and she just isn't a great general. Also (as I said earlier) she doesn't have much faith in soldiers and tech. This is a disadvantage for her.

 

So (once again) Revan wins in a legit battle.

 

So the only way Traya is gonna win is one of 2 things (which I've only stated like 100 times): Either her assassin techniques somehow create enough chaos to bring her victory

OR

Revan makes a BIG mistake, like throwing his entire army Traya's entire army at Malachor V (this ain't gonna happen)

 

So (as I've said) this comes down to a prolonged war. In this war, the assassins will play a significant role. But how effective are they? Can they kill men? Yes. Can they turn large numbers of Revan's men against him? No. Revan's men are too loyal to him (please don't make me explain why again) AND Revan wouldn't allow chaos to ensue among his ranks.

 

So, in the end, Traya's only military advantage is her guerilla tactics and her assassins (which were created by Revan). Is Revan not also capable of such warfare? Obviously if he was to start training assassins they wouldn't be AS affective as Traya's. But nevertheless, this is a game that two can play. So with that in mind, let's remember that Revan created these assassins. This prooves that he is capable of such warfare.

This is a battle that Revan can't win. Traya has much more going for than a few assassins and some Sith. And just because she doesn't care for technology and all that doesn't mean she wont use it. Remember that she used the Force even though she despised it.

As for the advantages of the assassins. They provide an incredible edge. A group of assassins could take out the entire crew of a Hammerhead-class vessel with ease. The utility of these assassins allows them to move across the galaxy with ease and sneak aboard Republic ships with ease. While Revan can create ways to prevent this, he can't ensure that it wont happen. They can board supply ships heading for Republic ships, they can board shuttles carrying military soldiers. Eventually, they will spread across the Republic fleet. Traya would be wise, which she is, to put the assassins on a cease fire until they are all in position. With a single order, Traya could devastate the Republic fleet quickly and effectively.

Not only that, but Traya can also manipulate people with the Dark Side. Conventional conversion methods may not be effective against Revan's men, but the Dark Side is a powerful tool against the mind. Remember how easily Kreia broke through Atton's defenses and dug into his mind. He was trained to resist such techniques and she was hardly troubled by it. An untrained military officer would be easy to convert for a Sith.