Well I got pumped up for five minutes then found out that the game can only be played durring Korean hours. Also the fact that you can't play after midnight is pretty much a setback. Looks like a great game, but wouldn't be able to accomplish anything with an hour or two of gameplay a day.

While I have no desire for this game (ArcheAge) and people will find its only a nitch market (which was said all allong by those in the know)

Trion picked up North American distribution rights for this game so dont worry

On NA servers you will be able to play NA hours (IE All day every day)

I think that SWTOR has a lot of potential for things like this with Jedi Ruins and scarred battlefields with hulks of destroyed ships, tanks and other vehicles. Yes, we do get informational entries via Datacrons or Lore objects, but I think these things could be more.

 

TOR does have amazing potential

Always has

Always will

There is NO FRANCHISE as rich in lore and content as Star Wars

Not LotR

Not WOW

Not Star Trek

But you need your developers to recognize that potential and utilize it to its fullest

And I just no longer think that will happen, if we being honest.

Sorry but I dont.

Gawd,my first ever was runescape.It was ok for what it was,nothing special though.

First mmo that really amazed me was a chinese game licensed out to some american company,it was called conquer online,it was 3d sprites on 2d plane,looked a little cartoonish.But the pve was only there to get you levelled and geared for the real game,endgame pvp.

Unlike a lot of mmos,it wasn't castable abilities with loads of key binds,it was a system with only a few buttons for abilities(which were mostly instant)and the big hitting melee classes had to AIM at other players to land hits.So basically,you'd have fast paced guild wars with players jumping all over the place and it took real skill to hit others,you had to judge where they were going to land/go to and aim there.Never come across any other pvp mmo like it that gave such an adrenaline rush ,people dropping gear all over the place from dieing red named,mages jumping around blasting everyone with fire pillars,and trojans/warriors sending fast blades(main melee mid range skill that you had to aim)out here and there either hitting people with precision or just getting lucky

Like all ftp though,devs got greedy,turned it into a real cash cow and stopped most players from ever being able to compete,and those who stayed on and didn't want to fork out thousands(yes it takes thousands now to be relevant)all turned to botting.Sad end for such a great little game,and i'm still looking for a rush like it.No "quality"mmo these days have ever got the pvp down right imo.

Anyway,vid of a guild war on conquer(you'll notice the trojans sit when they land,cost stamina to launch attacks and sitting was only way to regain it,leaving you vulnerable to getting hit if you did)

Well I got pumped up for five minutes then found out that the game can only be played durring Korean hours. Also the fact that you can't play after midnight is pretty much a setback. Looks like a great game, but wouldn't be able to accomplish anything with an hour or two of gameplay a day.

Is this based on how it's currently played without taking Trion into account?

Spectacle only lasts so long, I wish this wasn't the case but it is. That feeling when I first saw the huge world of... damn... World of Warcraft, with places I wanted to explore in the distance, it was amazing. The feeling left soon after when some idiots were verbally abusing this guy on chat, that is something I think could be remedied by making proximity chat the main form of finding groups. Sure it might take more time to find members, but somehow encouraging players into some kind of bar area to find other 'adventurers' would be amazing. You could still use a weaker form of general but make the rest area have a reward for using it to group up.

Just imagine never having to use general chat to form groups! It's similar to the mission area on fleets only more rewards to spot that healer you need waiting nearby. Meaning when you trek through the land with your group and no chat up top, you feel a small feeling of going on an adventure just the four of you, or even feeling like a mob actually forming to take down the boss! Having individual rewards for joining in with big fights would also help with this feeling, instead of only the first person to fight the enemy gets anything.

Anyway sometimes I get that feeling of wonder here, like when I stopped and looked up in taris for a while, the backdrop was so beautiful and detailed, birds flying through derelict buildings and rubble falling every so often.

I think the main (or at least a large factor) is that most of us have been exposed to many MMO's over the past few decades - at one point it just becomes background noise due to a rigid build that has hardly changed for God only knows how long. Nothing is truely "new" anymore in MMO's (with the execption of TOR being virtually fully voiced, but VO's aren't a new thing to be honest) it feels like.

I remember EQ I and II (hung out with a family member who played those and I watched / played a little bit along side them on their other desktop from time to time) and then my 3-4 years of SWG.

For me SWG, though heavily lacking in good graphics (sorry...the 21st century has spoiled my graphics expectations) at times, had an amazing feel and somewhat adventurous. The planets were large and open, the customization for housing (interior), the crafting that will never been seen again, the space portion, and many other aspects filled me with awe and excitement. The communities I became a part of boosted the fun even more there; with some now good friends originating from SWG. We'd host events, explore together, and just have fun RP'n sometimes when we got bored.

My favorite moment was a weekend a few years ago where we (Rebels) fought the Imperials on our server at Restuss for literally an etire day almost. Literally hundreds of players laggin the server up because of all the activity that day...incredible, huge battles there...

But SW:TOR (I love this game, but it has flaws still) and other recent MMO's just don't have that feel. SW:TOR feels small and cramped. No real open feeling on worlds and almost a nudge in each direction for objectives - it just feels too scripted and no free will to explore much. I've followed SW:TOR sinse the rumors of a new Star Wars MMO hit the internet years ago, and have been here sinse headstart.

I just wish SW:TOR had some of the feel that past MMO's brought to the table...more and more do I also miss the space portion that Star Wars used to be known for.... flashback to a 90's arcade game is just poor for an MMO...hopefully one day SW:TOR improves on the many aspects it failed to capture at launch.

This game hooked me harder than any MMO has since Everquest which says alot about it.

The future of MMOs is getting rid of as many NPCs as possible. If you really want an immersive, living, breathing world you have to get rid them.

I want to be the one handing out quests. Yes, SWTOR came very close with crew skills but it's not quite at the level I'm talking about. Yet.

I want a raid to go back to being what they used to be--an invasion of the enemie's headquarters--not one big NPC boss fight after another with "do X, then Y, then X, then Z" gameplay.

I want transportation and vendors that are run by players.

I want a little more wiggle room with what players can do interactively in the world. There was something neat about camping guards in EQ and watching the effects it had on your faction standing.

Back in the day when MMOs were still pretty new, I got into Everquest and it seemed amazing. The world was huge and had tons of places to explore. There were endless things to do. When you got to endgame, you actually felt powerful, like you had accomplished something. I would print out spell lists and maps and had them organized in a big folder super-geeky style. I took that game as srs bsns.

 

This thread is not to bag on SWToR or how to talk about how other games are better. I am here to ask you guys what you think is missing. I know that there are a lot of you who were blown away by Everquest or (insert your first big MMO here). What did they have that brought that sense of amazement?

 

Was it that we were new to it? Are we just burned out and jaded? Maybe even OLD and jaded? Is there anything that could be brought to SWToR to being a sense of wow (no pun intended) and amazement?

one part nostaligia

one part game design. Star Wars is a streamlined MMO experiece. That's the way it was built.

MMOs aren't one formula. Many people make that mistake. If you want a more exploration based MMO you have other choices. Its really one part of the market. Streamlined and story telling versus wide open and less hand holding. Choice is yours.

While I have no desire for this game (ArcheAge) and people will find its only a nitch market (which was said all allong by those in the know).

Niche games may be the way forward. I'd rather not see any more big-budget "AAA" MMOs that try to be all things to all people. Those games tend to end up satisfying only a small percentage, so why not target a specific subset of players to begin? You reduce your development budget and if you're successful, you end up with a loyal core of players who'll be in for the long haul. You save yourself a load of money and a load of grief and whining by not trying to cater to a plethora of gamers who have wildly different and conflicting opinions and expectations about what your game should be.

MMOs are like everything else in life: eventually the novelty wears off.

We could go into a deep semi-psychological/semi-philosophical discussion about how people try to replicate a good period of their life again and again which eventually only leads to a sense of disappointment that all those shiny new moments are weirdly enough never as good as the original one, but suffice it to say that we will never, ever be as amazed as the first time we ever managed to do a raid or PVP or just group up with real people in a game.

And it's not that SWTOR (or GW2, or WoW, or or or...) is not "good enough", or that Bioware and EA don't have enough tricks up their sleeves. They could still do something that amazes us, it will just never be the same as back then because frankly, even though Everquest or Wow were far from "perfect" they had one thing going for them that SWTOR will never have: they were the first MMO experience for a huge number of people and therefore there was nothing to compare that experience with (apart from single player games, but that comparison doesn't really make sense).

So, in a nutshell, it's not that SWTOR isn't good enough or that we have become too jaded to enjoy it. But just like any other experience in RL, when you're playing a game you are always (subconsciously) comparing it with your best moments from the past that usually tend to be a little more "perfect" than what they actually were.

But to be honest, I'm not really here waiting for one great thing that will amaze me.

I wouldn't want to see one new, groundbreaking thing and then silence for a year.

MMOs' target audience nowadays is not just the geeky, male, teenagers like it used to be and something that I don't really give a damn about (like sitting in chairs or chat bubbles) makes an other portion of the population extremely happy and their needs and wants are just as valid as mine.

It's the same with surprises: I might be amazed or I might be disappointed. So no, I'm personally not waiting for Bioware to "amaze" me with something shiny and new. I'm playing the game because I enjoy it.

Wow, Everquest, SWG or any other MMO were fun because we were teenagers discovering a new, shiny toy to play with our friends and everything new in that was unexpected and exciting.

We are not teenagers anymore and the game is no longer shiny and new.

Doesn't mean it's not fun to play it anymore. It's just a different kind of fun.

The old mmos seemed amazing when exploring for one reason: They rewarded exploring. All loot and bosses were available in open world.

Todays mmos divide all content into little bite sized chunks and take play control out of the players hands. All bosses are hermetically sealed in little instances along with all rewards. Hell even the rewards aren't sometimes and you only get a little poker chip to turn in somewhere else.

The only way Swtor will survive is to keep trying to break the mold they copied and throw in more and more player driven systems accessible through the open world. At Bioware's pace of development I don't see this happening.

While it wasn't my first MMO I remember loging in to Star Wars Galaxies for the first time and getting that Iconic Yellow text telling me it was a time of Civil War and it was amazing. Then logging into a detailed and wonderful character creator where I could create an iconic Star Wars Character and then loading into Mos Eilsey and being struck by the living breathing world of Star Wars.

But more than these first few moments of jaw droping wonder I was presented with so many choices, did I want to pick pistols or carbines or rifles or go to the cantina and heal battle fatigue as a musician (oh for those pilots when JTL came inn who had spent too long in the vacum filled with wounds). And here is the big difference between then and now was the unlimited (or so it seemed) possibility. If I wanted to use Rifles and Pistols I could, swords and survival it was an option the choice was mine. The streets teamed with people and barker droids. What did I want to do first goto a terminal and do stand missions, work on my faction rank from an Imperial terminal, work on crafting etc etc.

And thats the big difference than today, in todays MMO we start at A and then goto B and then to C. My choice of gear is about what is the best I can ware not whether I trade protection for stamina, and my choice of skill is basically which of 3 talent trees do I max out on to get the top tier skill and then dip into on the others. The reason much of the wonder is gone is that so much of the choice is gone and the game has been dumbed down where rather than choice we have to follow the path laid out with almost no choice in the matter. Do I goto Taris or Nar Shardaar first well thats obvious whichever one my level is set for.

To get the wonder back we need to see more open world, more choice more of logging in for that first time and being almost over whelmed with what to do first. And this starts right at the begining with Character creation where you are faced with the smiling faces of a bunch of different species/races and more character creation options that you could hope for.

one part nostaligia

 

one part game design. Star Wars is a streamlined MMO experiece. That's the way it was built.

 

MMOs aren't one formula. Many people make that mistake. If you want a more exploration based MMO you have other choices. Its really one part of the market. Streamlined and story telling versus wide open and less hand holding. Choice is yours.

Modern MMO's are being streamlined into irrelevence. There are no alternatives, other than to re-play old games.

Players don't understand that "penalties" exist in games for a reason. They are not there just to be aggravating. Removing or reducing penalties is not in itself a bad idea, but removing/reducing them without also replacing them with anything that fills their needed game mechanic is a bad design decision.

That is what we have today, MMO's that spoon feed the players and never punish them for anything. They have forgotten that games are supposed to challenge you, not just delay your "victory".

MMO's have no consequences anymore, no death penalties, no traveling and little to no dificulty outside of end gear progression raiding add to that leveling to end game now takes 6 days instead of 6 months.

Whether you like those chages or not it does not change the fact that when you get rid of all of that you get rid of all sense of accomplishment with your character.

They traded all of that to catch the casual sub, now that the casuals are demanding to play for free and the mmo market is becoming very overcrowded you can bet someone will try to capture that "hardcore" crowd that misses the days of the real mmos.

Sony is already trying it with the game Wizardry, the only problem i have with that game is that it looks like it was made before everquest, and in asia.

First MMO syndrome

Nothing comes close to that sense of wonder and awe.

Its not that the games are any less, its just that experience for the first time is gone

Back in the day when MMOs were still pretty new, I got into Everquest and it seemed amazing. The world was huge and had tons of places to explore. There were endless things to do. When you got to endgame, you actually felt powerful, like you had accomplished something. I would print out spell lists and maps and had them organized in a big folder super-geeky style. I took that game as srs bsns.

 

This thread is not to bag on SWToR or how to talk about how other games are better. I am here to ask you guys what you think is missing. I know that there are a lot of you who were blown away by Everquest or (insert your first big MMO here). What did they have that brought that sense of amazement?

 

Was it that we were new to it? Are we just burned out and jaded? Maybe even OLD and jaded? Is there anything that could be brought to SWToR to being a sense of wow (no pun intended) and amazement?

Although some of the gameplay mechanics were kind of wonky, and the exterior maps were just dreadful, I still don't think I've ever come across another game that had the same kind of emotional feel that I had when I was playing NeoCron 2 and running around NeoCron City, listening to the NCPD announcements, various faction announcements, sounding a lot like Blade Runner environments.

Accidentally unholster your weapon and the local NCPD Police bot tells you to halt where you are, raises his rifle at you, and tells you to put down your weapon. Venturing down into the sewers to blast rats and spiders and bees and bats, LOL.

But then you could make enough credits to buy some augments and add some super bones and eye implants, heart, lung, brain implants, all to boost up your skills.

The monorail system was just awesome.... and sometimes I'd just sit in one of the cars and watch as it took you all the way around NeoCron City, even to the outlying areas that you couldn't go into if you weren't geared up enough.

But I kind of think that was just because it was that novel experience. We'd never done that kind of thing on our computers before. And each of us may have had our own particular game that it happened with, and then every other game after it, no matter how advanced or innovative, just seems to never capture that initial thrill.

The video game equivalent of chasing the dragon.

It'll happen again. I have to say, I half-expect that the new Chris Roberts game is going to have that sense of wonder to it, primarily for being such a new game and a new strategy about how to do things. But I also know that it's very likely I'm just transplanting my love for Wing Commander and Privateer especially, both games that also had that awesome sense of wonder, except of course as single-player campaigns instead of online worlds.

I know for one thing, I don't think I've ever had as much fun as having found the pirate bases in Privateer and then starting up a Brilliance and Ultimate smuggling business, running drugs into the core systems. Evading ConFed patrols and sometimes having to jettison the cargo, wait to be scanned, then retrieve the cargo with the tractor beam in order to proceed toward mad profits was just down right fun. Part of my hope for the new Chris Roberts game comes due to me wondering if that will be possible again. We have already been confirmed that pirate bases will exist... and we know there will be UEEE patrols in the high security systems...

What's most assured is that by the time we're engaging in more real-life kinetic games, such as something akin to augmented reality or even virtual reality (that doesn't give you a headache after 20 minutes), we'll most definitely see that sense of wonder again. We just need a big enough leap.

A game modeled so closely on WOW probably was never going to do it, no matter how damned cool it was. The stories are great, the voiceovers and cinematics are great, and I've played this game since launch and I love it... but not like Privateer... and not quite like NeoCron...

POST SCRIPT -- BTW I was just remembering, I actually got so nostalgic for NeoCron again that I tried like hell to get back into the game. Apparently, it's still up and running, but hasn't really been developed, as the company that ran it has gone into bankruptcy and restructuring and so forth. But I was able to finagle my way in, after having bought the game again (buying an 8 year old game, sheesh).

It was fun for a while, and it really took me back to the glory days. However there were only 30 people online at any given time.... the world was just too empty, and it was just too dated. In its time, it was magnificent, or so I thought. But you just can't go back again. You can return to the same location, but times have changed, and it won't ever be what it was at that time at that moment.

Hell it works with dance clubs too. Will there ever be a better nightclub than Aahz and the Aahz Reunion days in Orlando during the 1990-1993 era?

First MMO syndrome

Nothing comes close to that sense of wonder and awe.

Its not that the games are any less, its just that experience for the first time is gone

No. It is clone-syndrome. Each clone is pregressively less than the original and we are at about the fourth or fifth generation of EQ clone.

Each clone generation has also lessened the mutiplayer aspect of the original till the current generation which are solo games with stapled on mutiplayer side diversions. The whole point of EQ was social interaction and cooperative play and both of these things have almost been designed out of the current crop of MMO's.

Making MMO's for solo gamers is pointless, stupid, and a recipe for failure. It's like building the most beautiful and luxurious boat the world has seen and deciding it's not that important to make it float.

No. It is clone-syndrome. Each clone is pregressively less than the original and we are at about the fourth or fifth generation of EQ clone.

 

Each clone generation has also lessened the mutiplayer aspect of the original till the current generation which are solo games with stapled on mutiplayer side diversions. The whole point of EQ was social interaction and cooperative play and both of these things have almost been designed out of the current crop of MMO's.

 

Making MMO's for solo gamers is pointless, stupid, and a recipe for failure. It's like building the most beautiful and luxurious boat the world has seen and deciding it's not that important to make it float.

I've been reading your comments and I agree with a lot of them. The lack of diversity seems to be a definite factor in missing that "bang".

And it's interesting that in your other post, you mention that it's the gaming companies that have streamlined these things all into clones, and I agree.

It's also interesting that my hopes for a new innovative and novel approach come from a game that just got its funding from Kickstarter and private donations and bypassed the big game companies all together.

Maybe it really is because of these giant gaming corporations that we can't reach far enough.

And maybe there is some hope in those innovative independents that are starting to pop up in earnest.

Okay, enough of this. I must go kill more people at the pylon on Ilum...

First MMO syndrome

Nothing comes close to that sense of wonder and awe.

Its not that the games are any less, its just that experience for the first time is gone

Thats not what BBP talking about though Darka

Hes talking about first, second, 5th, 10th, onward of the older style design

Truth of matter is anyone that played this genre long term can see exactly where a major design shift happened and the newer games (for me its at WOW and after) offer up less in way of total package experience.

If people were speaking only of their first MMORPG, then First MMO syndrome might apply.

But they are not,

goes well beyond just first MMO for many.

As I said in my first post,

for me the pre WOW MMORPGs focused ALLOT more on Community and social interaction

Social interaction was defined as actually interacting with people, talking to them, communicating

just grouping and silently running a flashpoint or ops is not social interaction

For others it was the exploration

I know I was in AWE of EQ, AC, SWG (even though ultimately disliked game), DAoC, FFXI, and more when it came to exploration of the game and that awe lasted much much much longer then 2 weeks- 4 weeks

Sorry but First MMO syndrome doesnt fit here

Thats a over simplification of the entire thread

i feel the same way . Started my MMORPG journey with Anarchey Online at launch . Then Migrated to SWG when that happened . i think it's alot of " it was new to us all" with a little of the learning curve for most of the early ones being pretty hefty and having the time to invest 12 years ago . But i think also , and i'm sure some may grimace at this comment, but it seemed back then when the MMO market was a niche thing the communities rallied together and the developers took time and care and loved the games as much as the fans . Nowadays its just a fast product with high turnover .

With care to detail and love for something comes a certain built nostalgia that always makes you look fondly on the early days of any movement . But i feel ya. that childlike sense of wonder is rarely found in new titles . But sometimes found in the indie games found around once in a while.

i feel the same way . Started my MMORPG journey with Anarchey Online at launch . Then Migrated to SWG when that happened . i think it's alot of " it was new to us all" with a little of the learning curve for most of the early ones being pretty hefty and having the time to invest 12 years ago . But i think also , and i'm sure some may grimace at this comment, but it seemed back then when the MMO market was a niche thing the communities rallied together and the developers took time and care and loved the games as much as the fans . Nowadays its just a fast product with high turnover .

 

With care to detail and love for something comes a certain built nostalgia that always makes you look fondly on the early days of any movement . But i feel ya. that childlike sense of wonder is rarely found in new titles . But sometimes found in the indie games found around once in a while.

you know I read allot of players (mostly new to MMORPGs in WOW and after) saying prior to WOW MMORPGs was a Niche market

its not true

Yes it had a smaller pool of players to draw from then the current market.

Yet games like

EQ, DAoC. FFXI all managed to maintain MORE subscribers, longer term, then Rift, TOR, Aion, Tera (subscriber meaning actually paying a monthly subscription)

SWG and EQ both went over 1 million mark (though SWG couldnt hold it for more then 2 months, fact is THEY DID IT even though was a much smaller player pool to draw from)

Original NWN on AOL was clearing 1 million per month in user fees way back in 1991 (that was HUGE MONEY for anyone in 1991)

Yes WOW exploded the market by marketing to non traditional gamer

And imo (and many others) the market has suffered greatly for it

But this mystical Niche market people like to claim was in effect prior to WOW

Thats just nonsense

Fact is if you actually look at numbers (other then WOW)

That so called niche market prior to WOW supported this genre far more consistently then what the explosion of potential post WOW player base has.

EQ went 12 years before they ever talked about a F2P option being added and survived and profited from their subscriber base only

Rift/TOR/Aion didn't even make it 12 months

Not bashing any game

Just debunking this false theory of only niche markets before WOW