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Nerf Guard!


Foambreaker

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This thread is all about players wanting to nerf a mechanic WHICH ISNT EVEN BROKEN. ...

 

Actually this thread was originally all about not nerfing healers. At the time people were saying healers were OP and "unkillable", people who were obviously mindlessly beating on the protected healer. 6 months later the other threads that formed the context are all gone, healers did get nerfed and this thread is endlessly bumped by PvE tanks who have their panties all in a knot and are clueless about the original topic.

 

From the OP:

"This is why healers are so hard to kill; healers without guard are not that hard to kill."

Edited by Foambreaker
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Actually this thread was originally all about not nerfing healers. At the time people were saying healers were OP and "unkillable", people who were obviously mindlessly beating on the protected healer. 6 months later the other threads that formed the context are all gone, healers did get nerfed and this thread is endlessly bumped by PvE tanks who have their panties all in a knot and are clueless about the original topic.

 

From the OP:

"This is why healers are so hard to kill; healers without guard are not that hard to kill."

 

Hmm less than a month ago you were claiming

 

Not that it matters since we apparently don'/won't have developers anymore but the original purpose of this thread was to address Guard in DPS builds, not TANK builds.

 

So what exactly is the purpose of this thread, other than complaining about a mechanic that has existed forever?

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Actually this thread was originally all about not nerfing healers. At the time people were saying healers were OP and "unkillable", people who were obviously mindlessly beating on the protected healer. 6 months later the other threads that formed the context are all gone, healers did get nerfed and this thread is endlessly bumped by PvE tanks who have their panties all in a knot and are clueless about the original topic.

 

From the OP:

"This is why healers are so hard to kill; healers without guard are not that hard to kill."

 

Another post full of hatred for all those who disagree, with unbased and wrong assumptions (that we are all PvE tanks), and nothing to actually counter the arguments that guard isn't OP. Since nothing is new and old mistakes are being repeated, I will repeat my clearly unread response for the previous time:

 

"If you don't narrowly only PVP, then you are fully PVE!!"

- "Only a Sith deals in absolute..."

 

I also regularly fly GSF, does it mean I don't play any ground content? Well, actually I also play Assassin's Creed, so I suppose I don't even play SWTOR... :rolleyes:

 

I have no idea what could possibly lead you to the conclusion that we don't PVP, but anyway, you are wrong. We play both (I personally raid and soloed my MM KOFTE/KOTET, and do PVP with the same character using the same gear) and therefore see the greater spectrum, better than people who solely PVP can. Calling us "PVE" is a lazy excuse to avoid countering our arguments.

 

And just for the new mistake:

This thread is all about players wanting to nerf a mechanic WHICH ISNT EVEN BROKEN.

The mechanic above which is referred to as not broken isn't the healers, it IS guard.

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Another post full of hatred for all those who disagree, with unbased and wrong assumptions (that we are all PvE tanks), and nothing to actually counter the arguments that guard isn't OP. Since nothing is new and old mistakes are being repeated, I will repeat my clearly unread response for the previous time:

 

 

 

And just for the new mistake:

 

The mechanic above which is referred to as not broken isn't the healers, it IS guard.

 

Actually, your post doesn’t provide any compelling evidence whatsoever for guard being overpowered. It’s mostly just you whining that people don’t take you seriously because you don’t pvp exclusively. The real reason you’re bad isn’t that you don’t pvp exclusively, though. It’s more along the lines of you having no idea what you’re talking about, imo.

 

If guard wasn’t in the game, pretty much all pvp would just be tunneling the squishiest player. Picture a 4v4 dps solo ranked match everywhere you go, because who would tank if they can’t use guard to peel, and who would heal if you just get piled on by four dps and stunned into oblivion? Guard gives tanks a reason to exist in pvp, and it also provides counterplay and introduces strategy in getting kills. This whole “ZOMG REGS ARE OVERRUN WITH HEALERS AND TANKS” nonsense has more to do with match making than an actual balance issue: if a team has multiple tanks and healers of course you aren’t going to be killing anything with the terrible regstar dps who populate the average war zone and this forum. Now I know counterplay, complexity, and strategy are pure anathema to most of the terrible people who are posting in favor of this thread, and I’m sincerely sorry for making you all have to consider them. :rolleyes:

Edited by SlimeyDoom
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Guard has been overtuned since day 1. Guard is the main reason why 8v8 ranked matches were almost always stalemates, guard is the reason why 4v4 ranked almost always goes to the acid. There's nothing wrong with guard as a concept, it's a great concept and gives tanks value in pvp, but 50% is way too strong and one of the main reasons why TTK is so long.

 

TTK is long with guard combined with something, not with guard alone, if you know what you are doing. The TTK for 2 players who guard each other WITHOUT A HEALER is SHORTER than the TTK for the same 2 players if they don't use the guard. Because with guard the damage overall is same (less unnoticeable 5%) + AoEs that hit the guarded for 50% and the tank for 150%, resulting in total of 200% AoE damage (far more noticeable).

 

The only benefit of guarding (when excluding healers) is increasing the personal TTK of the guarded guy at the cost of reducing the TTK of the tank and his guarded target as a pair (as I said above). Ultimately, with the same calculation, in a big group (excluding healers) efficient guard swapping increased the TTK of the group as a whole, but decreases the TTK of any specific singular target. It effectively kills the focused burst meta, but this is a good thing. If your playstyle is focused bursting, you should match it to the game, not ask the game match itself to your playstyle.

 

"But there are healers!". Well yes, but you can't say "healers are OP", because a single healer is not a tide-turner (in non-arenas), and only when combined with another healer it becomes unkillable. In the same manner, you can't say "guard is OP" because a single guard (or even 2 guards) is just a minor benefit with costs, and it is only unkillable when combined with a healer.

So a healer needs a healer or guard to become "an OP mechanic", and guard needs a healer (but another guard will not be sufficient to become "an OP mechanic" [While "an OP mechanic" = huge TTK increase]. How does it make guard the problem?

 

Look at this simple chart:

[T = someone who uses guard. H = Healer]

0T+1H = Increases TTK of any single target (the healer OR the other guy, because the healer can heal himself) and the pair (the healer + a dps) as a whole by a manageable number. Can also easily work with the whole group at once, increasing their total TTK.

1T+0H = Increases the TTK of the guarded target only. Reduces the TTK of the tank, and reduces the TTK of the pair (the tank + a dps) as a whole. Requires hard work to be efficient in larger groups of friendlies (due to the need of constant swapping) and reduces the TTK of the group as a whole (because whoever is guarded diverts extra AoE to the tank, so AoE still do 200% nearly always).

[up to here covers the "1v1" of "healer versus guard", so far healer wins by far...]

0T+2H = Increase the TTK of both targets simultaneously, therefore greatly increasing the TTK of the pair (the 2 healers). Very easily applied to larger groups increasing overall TTK by a lot.

1T+1H = The T can increase the TTK of the healer and the healer can increase the TTK of either. The pair's (the tank and the healer) overall TTK is up to how well can the healer heal, because the tank drops the overall and the healer increases it. It usually goes up though. In a bigger group, as long as the tank guards the healer he keeps the healer's TTK increased and therefore the healer can increase the group's TTK to slightly better than what he can solely do. If the tank swaps to other friendlies than the overall TTK goes down for the tank intervention (taking more AoEs) like the 1T case but goes up for the healer's intervention like the 1H case. Since the healer's strength is usually single-target healing, the tank's benefit to the TTK of a single target at a time combined with the healer fixing him up letting the tank move on to the next target makes them a nice combination. This (or larger scales of this) is what causes some people say that guard is OP...

2T+0H = As a pair, this is quite useless, because only 1 can guard the other. Even rotating guard between the tanks is useless unless they rotate usage of the DCDs to match the times in which they are the one guarding. Overall TTK is quite the same. Of course, TTK of a single tank, if they choose not to swap, is increased nicely, at the cost of his friend's TTK of course. In a large group, they can keep the TTK of 2 targets simultaneously higher (assuming they don't try the same guy and waste precious time), but the overall AoE damage will be 300%, which means total TTK only goes down by quite a lot (just imagine an engineering sniper in there).

 

In conclusion: 1T<1H, and (2T)<(2H)~(1T+1H). [ "~" means quite similar / depends on too many factors]. So why is again guard OP if we all agree healing is not?

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Actually, your post doesn’t provide any compelling evidence whatsoever for guard being overpowered. It’s mostly just you whining that people don’t take you seriously because you don’t pvp exclusively. The real reason you’re bad isn’t that you don’t pvp exclusively, though. It’s more along the lines of you having no idea what you’re talking about, imo.

Lol rafi is a tank that's been defending guard on this forum with me for literal months. He's not trying to prove it's op.

If guard wasn’t in the game, pretty much all pvp would just be tunneling the squishiest player. Picture a 4v4 dps solo ranked match everywhere you go, because who would tank if they can’t use guard to peel, and who would heal if you just get piled on by four dps and stunned into oblivion? Guard gives tanks a reason to exist in pvp, and it also provides counterplay and introduces strategy in getting kills. This whole “ZOMG REGS ARE OVERRUN WITH HEALERS AND TANKS” nonsense has more to do with match making than an actual balance issue: if a team has multiple tanks and healers of course you aren’t going to be killing anything with the terrible regstar dps who populate the average war zone and this forum. Now I know counterplay, complexity, and strategy are pure anathema to most of the terrible people who are posting in favor of this thread, and I’m sincerely sorry for making you all have to consider them. :rolleyes:

 

I've tried to say this before in multiple places in the thread.

Edited by KendraP
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Actually, your post doesn’t provide any compelling evidence whatsoever for guard being overpowered. It’s mostly just you whining that people don’t take you seriously because you don’t pvp exclusively. The real reason you’re bad isn’t that you don’t pvp exclusively, though. It’s more along the lines of you having no idea what you’re talking about, imo.

 

No, but it is clearly stated you didn't read ANY of my other posts, or at least don't remember them (or don't link them with my name), and barged into the conversation to find a chance to insult someone.

 

If guard wasn’t in the game, pretty much all pvp would just be tunneling the squishiest player. Picture a 4v4 dps solo ranked match everywhere you go, because who would tank if they can’t use guard to peel, and who would heal if you just get piled on by four dps and stunned into oblivion? Guard gives tanks a reason to exist in pvp, and it also provides counterplay and introduces strategy in getting kills. This whole “ZOMG REGS ARE OVERRUN WITH HEALERS AND TANKS” nonsense has more to do with match making than an actual balance issue: if a team has multiple tanks and healers of course you aren’t going to be killing anything with the terrible regstar dps who populate the average war zone and this forum. Now I know counterplay, complexity, and strategy are pure anathema to most of the terrible people who are posting in favor of this thread, and I’m sincerely sorry for making you all have to consider them. :rolleyes:

 

Friendly fire? (which proves you read nothing I ever said)

I say guard is NOT OP and doesn't need a nerf. You quoted a post in which I counter the OP of this thread who says that guard is OP. I truly tried and couldn't find a single way to get to the opposite conclusion and think I hate guard. Please enlighten, so I can be clearer next time, and when you do, maybe approach less offensively? :)

Edited by Rafiknoll
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I suggest trying group ranked ( more accessible now) and discovering how guard works in trinity scenario with matchmaking...

I suggest playing a burst set up and discovering new and amazing way to enjoy this game by using thinking and coordination to do a hard swap and get a kill. It will most likely change your opinion and make game more fun by not smashing buttons to do aoe.

This thread hopefully ends soon.

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I suggest trying group ranked ( more accessible now) and discovering how guard works in trinity scenario with matchmaking...

I suggest playing a burst set up and discovering new and amazing way to enjoy this game by using thinking and coordination to do a hard swap and get a kill. It will most likely change your opinion and make game more fun by not smashing buttons to do aoe.

This thread hopefully ends soon.

 

Arenas and warzones are entirely different things, even in Regs. Guard isn't an issue in Reg arenas either, assuming neither team gets hit hard with the matchmaking bat. Where it becomes an issue is in warzones where there are objectives beyond just killing your opponents and the long TTK in this game helps create a situation where the team that caps two nodes first nearly always wins, even assuming the teams have an even distribution of specs. Assuming the defending team is reasonably competent and at least evenly matched with their opponents, the long TTK makes it very difficult for the attacking team to clear enough defenders off a node in a short enough window to capture.

 

It's also why sometimes you have Voidstar matches where one team wins by capping only one door.

 

Guard of course isn't the only thing contributing to absurdly long TTK but it is a major part of it. The other is DPS classes having self heals and tank-like defenses. Although it is unlikely to happen, all of that needs to be adjusted to bring the TTK down and make level 70 PVP more fast-paced.

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Arenas and warzones are entirely different things, even in Regs. Guard isn't an issue in Reg arenas either, assuming neither team gets hit hard with the matchmaking bat. Where it becomes an issue is in warzones where there are objectives beyond just killing your opponents and the long TTK in this game helps create a situation where the team that caps two nodes first nearly always wins, even assuming the teams have an even distribution of specs. Assuming the defending team is reasonably competent and at least evenly matched with their opponents, the long TTK makes it very difficult for the attacking team to clear enough defenders off a node in a short enough window to capture.

 

The question in such matches is why did one team get 2 nodes to begin with?

 

I agree of course that in some matches that involve too many non-DPS classes on one or both of the sides it is quite a stalemate. The problem is balancing the survivability of such groups on the one hand and not making groups of 8 DPS too fast to kill on the other hand. Imagine if 6 DPS could be killed by 6 DPS in 6 seconds like it usually is in MOBA games. It just doesn't fit with the current style of this game.

Sadly enough, if TTK was low so that stalemates wouldn't exist on node-defense maps, it would also probably mean that all huttballs will end with a 0-0 tiebreaker or be a question of "who has more operatives".

The current situation is not optimal, but altering the balance needs to be done very very delicately, and of course not harm the trinity usefulness on the one hand while still not making trinity absolutely mandatory on the other hand.

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First 2 caps means nothing when I'm online. I'll take it everytime in a 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2.

Know your class and utilities. Understand how to use it to maximize your performance in objective play.

 

I can't count how many times I load into a reg and my team is behind, and we win or make a comeback that stresses the other team out.

 

 

Reading this thread and the many there concerning gaurd and it always comes back to L2P effectively

 

 

.

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Guard of course isn't the only thing contributing to absurdly long TTK but it is a major part of it. The other is DPS classes having self heals and tank-like defenses. Although it is unlikely to happen, all of that needs to be adjusted to bring the TTK down and make level 70 PVP more fast-paced.

 

I could name at least one other issue, at that would be the DPS players not being able to do even 2k DPS, sometimes hardly even 1K.

 

Which brings us to my usual topic: before randomly swinging the nerfhammer, can we please fix the bads?

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First 2 caps means nothing when I'm online. I'll take it everytime in a 1 vs 1 or 1 vs 2.

Know your class and utilities. Understand how to use it to maximize your performance in objective play.

 

I can't count how many times I load into a reg and my team is behind, and we win or make a comeback that stresses the other team out.

 

 

Reading this thread and the many there concerning gaurd and it always comes back to L2P effectively

 

 

.

 

I can 1 vs 2 as well and have captured off nodes. That has nothing do however with whether the TTK is too high with guard. You know who you aren't 1 vs 2ing at an off node? A healer-tank pair. Not unless they are flat out bad & get capped on while stunned. (Nor should you be able to 2 vs 1 a healer & tank for that matter, I only mention that to steer things back onto the topic of guard.)

 

Up against a team with two healer-tank pairs that captures two nodes first? GG. Unless they're flat out bad they're going to be able to lock down both nodes indefinitely.

Edited by Aeneas_Falco
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I q every day on star forge for an hour or two and have never run into these unstoppable healer tank combos. Never even seen a screenshot posted.... I even remember people posting in these nerf tank threads how they were gonna roll a tank and show how mighty they would be.... still haven’t seen one of them come back and post anything. The same people complain about marauders, snipers, Mercs, healers, stealth, operatives, etc. Let,s focus on the real issue:Power Techs... let’s not leave them out nerf them to the ground
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No and welcome to ignore.

 

I'm just confused as to whether the point is don't nerf healers or dps with guards. And if one follows the other, the logical conclusion is that dps guarding healers is too difficult.

Edited by KendraP
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