is there a summary here somewhere? 2 huge posts.... way too long to read.

is there a summary here somewhere? 2 huge posts.... way too long to read.

 

Real in-depth guides Are quite large.

 

However this project isnt finished so maybe, when the section about marauder vs class X is done there might be enough condensed info for you right there.

I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around the fact that pve gear is superior for pvp still. Full BM gets you what? 14% more damage done, 14% less damage taken, 14% more healing? is pve gear THAT much better that i can swing the fight more than all three of those?

Real in-depth guides Are quite large.

 

However this project isnt finished so maybe, when the section about marauder vs class X is done there might be enough condensed info for you right there.

 

Ok thanks. I would also request maybe creating a thread, reserving reply posts, seperating each portion of your post in sections that way you can create an index / table of contents linking to each section.

 

 

Hopefully we can get some hard numbers in here soon when they allow us damage meters.

Yes I had a hard time doing this the first time also, but I wrapped my head around it.

 

Although we are capable as annihilate of some very impressive burst we aren't designed that way. For us to get the burst going - stars really have to align, which basically means that our damage priority is not the first thing we go after especially not in a selfhealing tree.

 

In my gear deadly saber is 1800 over 6 if triple stacked and rupture is 1254 over 6. So a 6% incease would net me 106 over 6 and 75 over 6 dmg inrease. This is basically not worth it to me for 3 full skillpoints.

 

Unfortunately this will be changed in an upcoming patch, because the talent Bleedout actually gives us 30% dmg at all times, which will then be transfered into Hemorrhage.

 

So later we might end up having to put points into hemorrhage, but even then, properly geared I would end up decreasing pulverize by 1 and malice by 2, because phantom, ferocity, empowerment are just too kick *** to simply pass on it.

 

In the end phantom dominates all other talens, because there are those times you will get pulled or kicked into fire or acid and with phantom you are immung to that, which is insane.

 

However this is my idea of the annihilation spec - survive to keep dealing dmg. So everything that boosts my survivability goes first for me.

 

Thanks for the quick reply. I will try taking the points out of Hemorrhage and getting Phantom. I know Phantom kicks *** in PvE too and I use the same build for operations. I'll probably end up loving it and forget about the small overall damage increase on the warzone scoreboard.

 

I thought Bleedout currently gives us 30% more damage at all times because of a bug and they are going to fix it to return to 30% more crit damage from DoTs??? You have me a little confused there, you think we might need Hemorrhage after it returns to 30% more crit damage?

 

Also, I think taking a point out of Pulverize is a bad idea. That talent is so underrated, it is amazing and the extra 11/22% chance to refresh Rupture cd is godly. Being able to Rupture again as soon as the last tick goes off is HUGE, partly why my damage is so ridiculous in PvE and as you mentioned before in PvP, reapplying that slow is incredible.

Thanks for the quick reply. I will try taking the points out of Hemorrhage and getting Phantom. I know Phantom kicks *** in PvE too and I use the same build for operations. I'll probably end up loving it and forget about the small overall damage increase on the warzone scoreboard.

 

I thought Bleedout currently gives us 30% more damage at all times because of a bug and they are going to fix it to return to 30% more crit damage from DoTs??? You have me a little confused there, you think we might need Hemorrhage after it returns to 30% more crit damage?

 

Also, I think taking a point out of Pulverize is a bad idea. That talent is so underrated, it is amazing and the extra 11/22% chance to refresh Rupture cd is godly. Being able to Rupture again as soon as the last tick goes off is HUGE, partly why my damage is so ridiculous in PvE and as you mentioned before in PvP, reapplying that slow is incredible.

 

 

Yes they are going to fix bleedout, that said they also stated they didn't want to reduce the damage levels and talked about Hemorrhage. I wouldn't know where to find that dev quote anymore though. Hell maybe I am even remembering wrong, but that is how I remember it at least.

Yes they are going to fix bleedout, that said they also stated they didn't want to reduce the damage levels and talked about Hemorrhage. I wouldn't know where to find that dev quote anymore though. Hell maybe I am even remembering wrong, but that is how I remember it at least.

 

I guess we'll just see what's really going on when it does happen then.

What's wrong with bleedout?

Annihilation

Hemorrhage: Now increases damage dealt by bleed effects by 5% per point.

Bleedout: Now correctly modifies critical damage dealt by bleed effects.

Changes to Hemorrhage and Bleedout result in an overall increase in Damage Per Second.

 

Looks like we got our answer now. Hemorrhage will be worth getting. 15% is a lot more damage.

Bad math, don't do math when half asleep!

 

 

Edited February 2, 2012 by Pappus

The break even point is 66,667% critchance on your bleedings. Everything you gain after that will really net you a dps gain - that said everytime you use berserk you will do more dmg in that timeframe then before.

 

66,67% if you didn't have hermorrhage before.

Edited February 2, 2012 by Pappus

So all old stuff beside I made the full calculations and took as base 80% surge (still easy to obtain) and a 1000 base hit so you can check up the math for yourself:

 

We compare full hemorrhage just like tooltip states it and bleedout directly to what you would get now given how much crit (x) we have.

 

 

Old Crit: 2160

Old Normal Hit: 1360

 

New Crit: 2250

New Normal Hit: 1150

 

 

fn(x)=2250*x + (1-x)*1150

=1100x + 1150

 

fo(x)= 2160x + (1-x)*1360

=800x+1360

 

The old system (fo(x)) is not as heavily influenced by crit as the new one, obviously.

So the breaking point:

1100x+1150=800x+1360

300x=210

x=0,7 or in other words 70% crit is needed to break even with the old system.

 

 

Most common mistake made, like I did when I was half asleep earlier, is to calculate a crit like this:

 

1000*1,3(bleedout)*1,06(hemorrhage)*1,8(surgemultiplier) This is wrong, because the multiplication increases everything before it. Calculating like this would get bleedout to 34% or whatever for no reason.

 

Instead you calculate like this 1000*(1,3+0,06+0,8) (old crit)

new crit would be: 1000*(1,15+1,1)

 

So this will lead us into a dawn of even higher crit ratings needed and a lot more thought on 2x VS versus 1x annihilate + Assault.

Rage spec example added and a couple of counter moves.

Hey, I got a question

 

For carnage spec, which is a better rage dumper? rupture or massacre?

Hey, I got a question

 

For carnage spec, which is a better rage dumper? rupture or massacre?

 

Not sure if you could call 2 rage cost a dumper, but the answer is massacre. Should deal more dmg with the ataru proc then rupture, which is even in annihilation spec not hitting hard in any way.

U cast - I ravage: Enemy casts e.g. Tracer Missile, Force lightning or whatever you ravage his face.

 

lol that's not a bad idea, I'm going to try that out. Nice guide. I didn't realize how nuanced Marauders were until you typed it out. A lot of these things I was doing just from playing wz's until my eyes bleed.

 

Anyway, thanks for posting!

 

One technique I wanted to add was the RAVAGE CANCEL

 

I've seen it mentioned before, but not in your guide.

 

Ravage comes in 3 hits, 2 consecutive --then a pause-- then a bigger hit. The 3rd hit takes a long time and effectively you're losing dps and your opponent may have run off. I typically just use the first 2 ravage hits then IMMEDIATELY use annihilate/rupture/vicious slash/battering assault (or force scream if they ran off) to cancel ravage.

Edited February 2, 2012 by HBninjaX

lol that's not a bad idea, I'm going to try that out. Nice guide. I didn't realize how nuanced Marauders were until you typed it out. A lot of these things I was doing just from playing wz's until my eyes bleed.

 

Anyway, thanks for posting!

 

One technique I wanted to add was the RAVAGE CANCEL

 

I've seen it mentioned before, but not in your guide.

 

Ravage comes in 3 hits, 2 consecutive --then a pause-- then a bigger hit. The 3rd hit takes a long time and effectively you're losing dps and your opponent may have run off. I typically just use the first 2 ravage hits then IMMEDIATELY use annihilate/rupture/vicious slash/battering assault (or force scream if they ran off) to cancel ravage.

 

Yes quite right, forgot to type that one I will add it in the next iteration. I add gradualy every day an hour or two to the guide.

 

It is just so much to write, because it is a complex class with much little stuff to know.

Post some warzone screenshots because I find this some of your points stupid

Post some warzone screenshots because I find this some of your points stupid

 

Soloqueue the last 2 WZ's I screenshotted.

 

6-0 defeat on huttball, outdamaged, outhealed, outobjectived and outkilled everyone of my team. Except for killing I also outdid everyone on the enemy team. However can't win it alone as non grip class.

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/screenshot2012020219004.jpg/

 

 

 

Voidstar: 555 dps, it ain't fulltime voidstar, but the first didn't even have 200k dmg. If it would have been fulltime that would net around 500k.

 

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/screenshot2012020116415.jpg/

 

On a sidenote most of the games I won't use smash or sweeping slash against multiple enemies unless it is useful, e.g. not 2 enemy healers present or whatever just to increase my dps.

I typically just use the first 2 ravage hits then IMMEDIATELY use annihilate/rupture/vicious slash/battering assault (or force scream if they ran off) to cancel ravage.

 

I could just be imagining it but using movement to cancel Ravage seems to go quicker than using an ability.

Edited February 3, 2012 by OniGanon

I could just be imagining it but using movement to cancel Ravage seems to go quicker than using an ability.

 

The second tick of ravage occurs directly when your GCD finishes and that way you don't lose time 'checking' or anything.

 

Just ravage hammer the next skill and then move on is probably the best way.

 

Did some heavy dueling with top level sorcs/assassins and will summarize the guidance when I wake up.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Pappus

Delivering........................................ .......Receiving

 

No gear........................vs.................... ...No gear

1000 dmg............................................... 1000 dmg

 

Full PvP gear:................vs.........................No Gear

1000 dmg + 12%..................................1000+12% = 1120

 

Full PvP gear:................vs....................Full PvP Gear:

1000 dmg + 12%.................................1120-12%=1000 dmg

 

 

You might be correct that PvE gear is better than PvP gear, but this little chart in INCORRECT.

 

Expertise reduces damage by 12%. This means that if you have full PvP gear and are getting hit by someone in full PvP gear, then you will be taking ~985 damage, not 1000. Put another way, the damage reduction affects others' damage increase, not just their base damage. This means that you are undervaluing Expertise by quite a bit.

You might be correct that PvE gear is better than PvP gear, but this little chart in INCORRECT.

 

Expertise reduces damage by 12%. This means that if you have full PvP gear and are getting hit by someone in full PvP gear, then you will be taking ~985 damage, not 1000. Put another way, the damage reduction affects others' damage increase, not just their base damage. This means that you are undervaluing Expertise by quite a bit.

 

Might be, depends how and when it is calculated.

 

If they take the difference directly at the attack point, to determine for dmg bonus/malus, then you won't notice a derivation from that chart.

 

If they go into a two step calculation, then what you said would happen.

 

That said I, if i were a developer, would do the formula using expertise difference to avoid calculation problems and make things easier. Someone would of course need to test it and the difference is around 1.5% dmg reductio, that is if there even is an error - which we don't know.

Added play vs deception assassins.

Might be, depends how and when it is calculated.

 

If they take the difference directly at the attack point, to determine for dmg bonus/malus, then you won't notice a derivation from that chart.

 

If they go into a two step calculation, then what you said would happen.

 

That said I, if i were a developer, would do the formula using expertise difference to avoid calculation problems and make things easier. Someone would of course need to test it and the difference is around 1.5% dmg reductio, that is if there even is an error - which we don't know.

 

The "if I were a developer" argument is nonsense. I mean I can simply say, "If I were a developer, I would calculate a single number for damage output from one character then pass that number to a second function that modifies it based on defenses." And in the end it comes out to a lot more than a 1.5% difference because of the additional factor that you are forgetting:

 

The stat/damage bonus that you get by equipping PvE gear is an ADDITIVE bonus as in +damage from additional stats. However, the damage bonus from PvP gear is MULTIPLICATIVE as in +damage reduction. If you ignore resistances and armors, then that is no big deal. However, when you factor in armor, especially high armor targets (which are typically Ball Carriers and Node defenders that have to be killed for objectives in WZ's) having a 10% multiplicative bonus to damage done will be a 10% damage increase regardless of your target, while having a +10% damage output bonus actually comes out to a +5% damage output bonus against heavy armor users (who have roughly 50% damage reduction).

 

Now you also talked about PvE gear having greater "effective health." While that might be true in a 1v1 fight, SWTOR PvP is not about 1v1 (despite there being a medal for it). You have healers for a reason. And if you have a healer %damage reduction will ALWAYS be better than a larger health pool so long as you aren't being 1-shot. The best way to see it is for you to think of your health as a bath tub full of water. Enemy damage drains that tub while incoming heals refill it. You can make the tub as big as you want, but if the drainage is faster than the refill, it will eventually empty. The best way of keeping the tub full is simply to slow the rate of drainage.

 

I don't mean to rain on your parade, as the gameplay portion of your guide is pretty good, but I your assertions that PvE gear in PvP is generally better than the PvP gear are not correct. Now, admittedly I can't confirm that Marauders aren't a special case – maybe their stat bonuses really are out of whack – but I have tested on my Juggernaut and the Champion PvP gear provides greater damage output and survivability compared to Colomi gear. Not to mention the PvP set bonuses make it worthwhile to use PvP gear regardless. You should really consider revising your guide as it makes pretty bad untested claims and misinformation about game mechanics which sadly detract from an otherwise very good guide.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Pyowin