OP updated:

5 MIN SINGLE TARGET PARSES WITHOUT Orbital Strike or XS Freighter Flyby

Bye Bye Fly Bye - youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr86zynfCqM&t=0m39s

- Orbital in the beginning of the fight only (pre-casted)

- WEARING 4-pc PVE bonus (3 ticks of OS)

- prototype nano-infused skill stim

- no armor pen debuff

- no adrenals

- NERF aims to remove OS/XS from single target rotation. BW intended for this ability to be used when multiple targets will be hit. Not for single target DPS.

- NERF should bring our single target DPS closer to other classes. In a raid setting we will still have competitive if not superior AOE DPS (especially with the ~coming Engi buffs. BW mentioned they are planning to buff Full Lethality as well). Snipers still have great utility thanks to their gimmicky diversion, best knockback/root in the game and raid wide 20% damage reduction. Only thing missing now is abiltiy to heal to full

MM 36/3/7

1. 2771 DPS 30% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419436/time/1378963252/1378963552/0/Overview

2. 2621 DPS 32% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419436/time/1378963585/1378963885/0/Overview

3. 2708 DPS 29% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419436/time/1378963926/1378964226/0/Overview

4. 2740 DPS 32% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419436/time/1378964260/1378964560/0/Overview

5. 2701 DPS 31% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419458/time/1378966601/1378966901/0/Overview

AVG CRIT: 30%

AVG DPS (no OS): 2708 DPS

PARSE 1 (with OS): 2872 DPS 30% Crit

DPS LOSS: 164 DPS if we stop using Orbital all together

DPS LOSS: Even if we use Orbital on cooldown due to the removal of 2-pc PVP bonus

Results were very interesting for the Hybrid Spec

HYBRID

Here we have Hybrid parses, without Orbital

1. 2843 DPS 36% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419478/time/1378967716/1378968016/0/Overview <-high crit parse

2. 2831 DPS 38% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419478/time/1378968055/1378968355/0/Overview <-high crit parse

3. 2820 DPS 35% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419487/time/1378968733/1378969033/0/Overview

4. 2847 DPS 36% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419501/time/1378970146/1378970446/0/Overview

AVG CRIT: 35%

AVG DPS: 2835 DPS

DPS GAIN: 10 DPS

Here we have Hybrid parses WITH ORBITAL, but without the 2-pc PVP bonus

1: 2823 DPS 36% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419490/time/1378969243/1378969543/0/Overview

2: 2821 DPS 38% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419496/time/1378969628/1378969928/0/Overview

3: 2831 DPS 33% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419502/time/1378970655/1378970970/0/Overview

AVG CRIT: 35%

AVG DPS: 2825 DPS

Rotation: includes timing TA/AP (IM/CH) wIth Orbital Strike so that I can do Cull -> OS -> SoS -> Cull without having to do the lesser dps rotation: Cull -> OS -> RS -> RS -> Cull.

Last but not the least,

LETHALITY

1. 2875 DPS 35% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419512/time/1378885980/1378886281/0/Overview

2. 2887 DPS 35% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419518/time/1378886557/1378886867/0/Overview

3. 2988 DPS 34% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419527/time/1378887976/1378888276/0/Overview *

4. 2981 DPS 36% crit http://www.torparse.com/a/419535/time/1378889629/1378889929/0/Overview *

AVG CRIT: 35%

AVG DPS: 2932 DPS

Summary:

MM is still up in the air. We don't know the context of BW's answer to the Scoundrel Q&A. Maybe there are changes in the MM tree but ofcourse they won't talk about that in the Scoundrel forum. My guess is that MM should still be using OS on cooldown (paired with Sniper Volley) despite any OS nerf. The alternative is just too low of a DPS...

MM DPS without Orbital: 2708 DPS

MM DPS with Orbital (4-pc PVE): 2872 DPS

Hybrid without Orbital looks like it does more if not the same DPS as Hybrid with Orbital but without the 2-pc PVP set bonus. Is the 2-pc PVP set bonus really this powerful? More parses from other people would be great!

HYBRID DPS without Orbital: 2835 DPS

HYBRID DPS with Orbital (4-pc PVE): 2825 AVG DPS

Before the xpac came i did notice that Lethality was doing more DPS than Hybrid if you remove Orbital Strike. Did not mind it much since ofcourse everyone was excited about the all new MM/SS and the new Engineering/Saboteur. Also BW was right in our QA. Lethality > Hybrid when played the way they intended it to be (without OS and without EP+Cluster Bombs).

Full Lethality DPS without Orbital: 2932 DPS

Full Lethality DPS with Orbital: too tired to parse anymore lol

Orbital is a defense mechanism more than anything. Any half decent player will, unless pulled or pushed or stunned into the area leave long before the initial tick. Which is the point, when I want to make melee classes think twice before trying to walk near me...

Concidering arena play, which is the only form of PvP that will matter, Engineers will suffer as a spec if the dmg is nerfed even a little. Engineer currently have three very long CD abilites which potentially can burst down an enemy in Arena's. EP + SoS, Orbital, and Wallbang. And the orbital even requires you to play with a Powertech to pull the target in there.

So I hope, if this goes through, that the engineers somehow, will be able to retain thier dmg from orbital. Cause when wall bangs gets nerfed, as it should we will only have EP + SoS left, and thats every 45 sec. Engineers will have no place in arenas then, cause we simply wont be killing anything.

Agian, when reading the dev's thoughts on the matter, it seems mostly that they are concerned about the ability from a PvE perspective. But yea, guess we will have to see what changes they actually propose before crying to much about it.

Here's what I think about this. I'm copy pasting from scoundrel answer thread

3) while I'm sad about my OS getting nerfed especially since i am an engi sniper, tbh I feel it has to be toned down. Granted at the same time losing ~415 dps(going off of Nithnuro's 3265.68 dps MM parse) may hurt too much. The one thing this question really makes me want to know is this: WHAT IS THE MEAN DPS FOR ALL THE CLASSES? What's this expected number in the middle of that 5% difference. I'm sure most of us expect it to be ~3k, but if MM loses OS then that would put it at ~2850 right? looks like your parses are leaning to that too When POwertechs did AP on pts that's the number they were hitting too, and they got no execute and mostly avoid armor. Nithnuro's parse http://www.torparse.com/a/365907/tim...0/Damage+Dealt

Going off my guess for what they want all the classes to hit, the 5% and TD energy energy is fine to do that. While I also think its a highly boring and crappy bonus too, hell it gets the job done.

given what they said i can only think of two options to achieve their goal.

OS is now channeled. Becomes like lighting storm or Suppressive Fire

or

OS has a damage modifier or secondary explosion with splash damage that increases damage based on number of targets hit.

some of the talents would need to be re-evaluated. and i would hate to see the signature Agent move turned worthless and given that you only get the skill at 48 makes it rather lackluster.

I guess it was inevitable

From what they're saying I doubt they'll drastically change the mechanic itself, long channel followed by bombardment over time. Perhaps they'll make a really simple change, globally reduce CD to 45 seconds baseline and relocate the cool down _and_ cast time reduction from MM to Engineer with damage reduction as they see fit.

Thus all specs can use OS more often and 45 secs CD feels more in line with current AoE mechanics in raids. I know I hate the extra 15 seconds in Engineer and Lethality/Hybrid just because of this.

I'd actually like to see the time between ticks reduced by half 1.5-2 sec instead of 3 sec. Engineer will still be the master of guarding in PvP and make it in general feel more bursty. Damage would probably have to be reduced further if they do something like this.

Now, they should really take a look at the 4-set PvE set bonus as well to make up for their intention of nuking (pun intended) OS' usefulness outside Engineering. Ranged damage boost would nice.

PS. Remember that BW also said they wanted to basically kill the Hybrid spec, lets just hope they don't cripple the entire class

It will be a nerf to Engineers. But for MM, it may become a buff if cast time is lower to 1.5s (with talent spec) and energy cost is lower to 20. It will have the same cast time and energy cost as Snipe. So unless the total damage done by it is nerf to the point being less than the total damage done by Snipe, which I doubt it will be that much of a nerf, it will still be a superior ability for single target damage than Snipe.

My thoughts as well! *crosses fingers*

I think the OS nerf is meant for Hybrid first and MM nerf second. I understand if they want to nerf MM. Going off BW's other answers their principle seem to be DoT spec = sustained DPS, Direct damage spec = burst dps (less sustained DPS). This is basing off the Marauder Q&A and among other things like Vengeance vs Rage, Lethality 1.7 vs MM 1.7 (and even Operative Lethality vs Concealment if u want that lol). Ofcourse other specs still need some work obviously.. like Sins and Madness

I think its fine for MM to be less than DoT spec. MM already has more survivability (can tank NIM TFB slams, entrench T6 burn phase), great utility (diversion!!!) and better burst.

Needs double checking.

BEFORE

1. Nithnuro - Sniper - Marksman 36/3/7 - 3265.68

2. Evrydayimsmggln - Gunslinger - Hybrid 5/18/23 - 3238.05

4. Red'october - Gunslinger - Hybrid 5/18/23 - 3207.38

5. Alishee - Sniper - Marksman - 36/3/7 - 3192.26

ADJUSTMENTS

- wearing 4-pc pve (3 ticks of orbital), no 2-pc pvp (4 ticks of orbital)

AFTER

1. Nithnuro - Sniper - Marksman 36/3/7 - 3207 DPS

2. Evrydayimsmggln - Gunslinger - Hybrid 5/18/23 - 3159 DPS

4. Red'october - Gunslinger - Hybrid 5/18/23 - 3123 DPS

5. Alishee - Sniper - Marksman - 36/3/7 - 3092 DPS

ORIGINAL OS/FLYBY DPS less NEW OS/FLYBY DPS

1. 413 - 355 = 58 DPS

2. 350 - 271 = 79 DPS

4. 337 - 253 = 84 DPS

5. 398 - 298 = 100 DPS lost

so much DPS tied to a PVP set bonus armoring >_>

Paowee can I ask how much crit rating you used for your hybrid and lethality parses?

I think i had 53~100 crit rating

I thought I asked this somewhere but I can no longer find where I asked it so i'm gonna ask it here, can you clarify the bullet point: No execute for MM/Hybrid. What do you mean by that? Are they taking it away from marksman? Sorry for the confusion.

Oops I meant to say that the parses in the front page will not take into account the execute ability that MM and Hybrid Snipers will get when the target's HP goes below 30%.

Did about an hour of parsing today using your rotation and guide lines regarding orbital you did in your parses. I found that it takes much more effort to keep lethality up with MM for a sniper and for the most part my MM parses over took lethality every time with minimal effort.

Do you have the 4-pc pve bonus for Lethality?

Are you wearing 2-pc pvp for MM?

Where's your parse?

Here are 2 new ones i just made tonight

Lethality and MM http://www.torparse.com/a/420749

Basic lethality rotation with EP when IM/CH is up.

Basic MM rotation with max uptime on CD and Lazed Snipe on cooldown.

Both do not use Orbital aside from the initial opener.

Here are 2 new ones i just made tonight

 

Lethality and MM http://www.torparse.com/a/420749

 

Basic lethality rotation with EP when IM/CH is up.

Basic MM rotation with max uptime on CD and Lazed Snipe on cooldown.

Both do not use Orbital aside from the initial opener.

So much DPS lost without OS, the numbers you are getting only show that Snipers need the OS to be on par with Marauders as a full DPS class... Only cutting OS from our rotation doesn't seem to be the way they'll go, from their previous answers I'll bet they'll buff Snipe which may compensate somewhat for this drastic drop. So unless OS doesn't keeps its current mechanic of fire-and-forget and unless the cost is so prohibitive we will still use it for single-target damage.

So much DPS lost without OS, the numbers you are getting only show that Snipers need the OS to be on par with Marauders as a full DPS class... Only cutting OS from our rotation doesn't seem to be the way they'll go, from their previous answers I'll bet they'll buff Snipe which may compensate somewhat for this drastic drop. So unless OS doesn't keeps its current mechanic of fire-and-forget and unless the cost is so prohibitive we will still use it for single-target damage.

I think MM will still use Orbital though. The cast time is waaay to short to not use. It's more of an issue for the Lethality/Hybrid specs i think.

I should've put a disclaimer for MM... we won't know the DPS loss for this spec until they show us the actual changes they make to Orbital and parse it from there.

I have mixed feelings about this.

First, I really love OS as an ability as it is, and I hate to think about it getting nerfed. However, if they do it in such a way that it is still very powerful for multiple targets, with a significantly lower cooldown and cast time, then I can live with that.

As much as I like OS and think that in a lore type of way the idea of an Orbital Strike should be a huge hit that you don't get to use often, it does have its disadvantages in some situations. We've all had our OS wasted because either the adds died before it finished casting, or someone pulled all the mobs out of it before it hit. We've probably all at the very least been tempted to not use it on aoe situations in a boss fight because we'd rather use it on cooldown for higher dps numbers at some point.

The only really comparable class that can use AOE in a rotation but isn't specifically an AOE class is a Mercenary and using DFA or not is almost irrelevant to dps for them on single target and personally I think differences in using or not fall into margin for error territory when parse A is better than parse B.

On the other hand a mercenary has also has two cripplingly expensive AOE attacks (fusion missile and sweeping blasters) each of which cost more than a OS yet do much less damage than a DFA (also much weaker than a OS) and are a good way to go into a DPS loss through low regen unless expecting some regen time or planning to burn resource CDs to neutralise the cost.

Wonder what they will do to bring down sent/Mara to the other classes then

Probably keep designing fights that make melee hate themselves and call it a day.

On topic, I'm glad flyby/orbital is going to get nerfed. It's so much better than any other class's AOE that it's kind of silly. I think it's premature to complain about how low the damage in any spec is going to be without using orbital, as the devs have paid a lot of attention to snipers/gunslingers so far and at least from this section of the community has earned a little trust. We've been solid for a very long time, let's be patient and wait to see what the changes will actually be.