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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?


Dovahbrah

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Admittedly, I haven't touched my Commando since late January, due to the fact that I could see the train wreck that was coming later on. Once people figured out how to play their classes well, especially melee, it was apparent that DPS mercs/commandos would be at the bottom of the food chain.

 

Alas, I was vindicated, and at the present time DPS Mercs/Commandos are still in a bad place in PvP in the 50s bracket. Sure, they can do well in the 10-49 bracket, but that's irrelevant. The real balance should be in respect to the 50s bracket, and the fact is, Mercs/Commandos are severely under performing. They can do well when mostly ignored and allowed to free-cast, but in reality, this is almost never the case unless the opponent you're facing is awful. Any PvP'er worth his salt knows healers are the priority target, closely followed by Mercs/Commandos since they're basically free kills when under pressure. Whenever I log onto my Jugg/Sentinel/Shadow/Vanguard, I always consider Mercs/Commandos free kills, no matter how good the other player is. Some of them can put up a halfway decent fight at times, but even at their best, they can't get me below 40-50% health. It's a sad state of affairs for them.

 

So my question is, when is BW going to address the class? I think most can agree with me that it's in a bad spot. There's plenty of other threads regarding the issue, like this one: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=541411

 

That thread has hundreds of posts, some of them are pure whines, but many of them are filled with genuinely good ideas to improve the class. Yet, there hasn't been a single post from BW in response to the issue. Surely BW can throw the Mercs/Commandos in that thread a bone? If I were to post about the Coin Shop, I'd get a yellow post in an instant. Yet, this thread has hundreds of posts, but not even one response. What's the deal BW?

 

Merc/Commando damage is, for the most part, in a good place. Damage isn't really the issue. The problem with Mercs/Commandos is their extremely lacking utility/escape abilities. They have no disengage, they have no sprint, they only have 1 knockback, a root that only works in melee range (why?), a mezz (with cast time) on a 1 min CD and a 10m (why?) stun. Mercs/Commandos offer nothing that other classes don't also have, and other classes can do their job better. You don't see DPS Mercs/Commandos in rated warzones, why is that? It's because the other classes offer much more utility and survivability, and overall they do their jobs better.

 

In my opinion, Mercs/Commandos would have a lot less to complain about if they had some additional utility skills. If you parse that thread I linked, I'm sure you could find some gems that wouldn't overpower the class at all. For example, what if Mercs/Commandos gained 3-4 seconds of increased movement speed after using their knockback? What if their knockback also removed any snares they had on themselves? Why can't the root on stockstrike/rocket punch simply be added on to the knockback component it once had? What if unload/full auto was uninterruptible, like Tanksins' telekinetic throw/lightning and Warriors/Knights' ravage/master strike? What if they had a disengage/retreat that would send them back 20-30 meters on use with a cooldown? What if they had some type of sprint likes inquisitors/consulars? These kind of ideas are golden and would help the class immensely.

 

Please BW, I don't play my Commando anymore, but help these guys out and give them some love. I'm starting to feel bad every time I kill them in a warzone, it's just not fair. The class is in need of a much needed boost.

 

P.S. The interrupt you gave them should've been there at release.

 

Edit: Here's a list of good ideas that have been brought up in this thread and others, so that Devs could see them more easily:

 

They don't care about addressing this issue. To the developers at Bioware they think it is 'working as intended'.

 

Mercs/Commandos are a ranged class and typical of most other games the ranged class has the ability to kite their enemies. In SWTOR there is no way for Mercs/Commands to kite anything. We have one stun break which we have to use wisely and most of the time there is no good choice b/c the second its used you just get stunned/slowed again and death follows quickly after.

 

It surprises me how ALL of the other classes can solo Mercs/Commandos with relative ease yet when I've played other classes I can 1v1 just about any other class except for the really good players and I do use the term 'good' loosely. (Not talking about the one button wonder boys and their smash spec xD)

 

I wish that Bioware as a whole wasn't going down the drain. Its pretty obvious they don't care about the customers or the players of any of their games anymore. You know it is true when they start trying to cover up the flaws of the game with flashy cosmetics and overpriced addons that ultimately serve no better purpose than to have a 'unique look'.

 

If they really wanted to address this issue they'd give us our dmg back and give us some way to 'kite' our enemies. Until then I'm afraid DPS Mercs/Commandos will always be free kills to melee.

 

Things they could do to improve our survivability:

 

Increase the range of electro dart back to what it originally was. (BTW Bioware shorting the range of electro dart didn't help with the stun lock problem. Ppl still complain about it.)

 

Unnerf Unload cause the damage is still way below what other dps classes can push.

 

Give us a second way to escape stuns/slows.

 

Increase the chance of Power Shot activating our free Rail Shot (For Merc Pyros not Arsenal)

 

Since you gave Shadows/Assassins an uninterpretable ranged attack you should also make our Unload uninterpretable. (Which btw is stupid as hell. You give a melee class which is already near impossible to kill as a Merc/Command a ranged attack we can't even interrupt. Yes jet boost works but getting in close enough to use it puts us in melee range which is not ideal for a ranged class.)

 

Give our energy shield a higher amount of damage to absorb or just increase the overall length of time it lasts.

 

Really anything at this point would help make playing this ranged class less of a headache b/c at this point you guys at Bioware have totally screwed the ppl who ended up making a Merc/Commando as their main.

 

All in all this game was fun but its going down hill quicker than Jack & Jill. Bioware if you really care at all you'd read and take to heart what ppl are saying in this thread. This is a legit problem in pvp and we've waited way too long for you to do something about this....

Edited by OldRepublicRevan
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Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

Fair to say? Have you even played on The Shadowlands server? Do you know what kind of a headache it is to play one in pvp? You've made us wait far too long for a buff and its not just an escape issue its also a flat out damage issue. The vast difference in melee vs ranged dps is complete and utter ********. Snipers can do more damage than and Merc and have better survivability than us and for months you've said 'we're working as intended'. You guys/girls at Bioware have no idea what your doing and should have never gotten into the MMO business b/c this game is a clear sign you have no idea what ya'll are doing. You should have just Made KoToR III instead of doing an MMO.

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I don't see the problem with Merc/Commandos. Ive played a Mercenary since day 1, it was my first 50, it is still my main. I do fine as a dps merc, albeit I am arsenal specced where as most people prefer pyrotech.

 

If you can get a healer, or a tank to keep you alive you can kill enemy tanks/healers and dpsers very very quickly as an arsenal merc due to the fact that you reduce armor, deal tech dmg and can hit 2-3 attacks before they even know what hit them.

 

I have also played a pyrotech and I have to say I enjoy it but not as much as my arsenal. And to the lack of U-T-I-L-I-T-Y as stated previously.

 

You can make combustible gas cylinders slow the enemy for as long as it is applied which means mercs get a permaslow essentially not sure how that isn't considered utility. Let alone they do massive AoE dmg in all specs besides healing.

 

Healer? Whats a healer? 98% of the warzones that go on are just two teams of dps just trying to death match. Healers only exist on the Republic and Imperial healers only heal guildies. If your a pug you automatically get screwed out of any heals.

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Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

Admittedly they can be hard to catch except for the part where melee can jump to us which makes us not hard to catch at all. Powertechs and Sorcs/Sages can pull us straight to them and dps operatives can knock us down and stab us for like 10 seconds straight before we can even get back up......common Bioware don't try and make it sound like it is the players fault that Mercs/Commands suck. Its your fault Bioware for leaving our class unbuffed for so long. You buffed all the other classes and left us alone. Then you wanna turn around and act like we have no reason to complain.......no wonder this game is such a friggin fail and you lost most of your subscribers after the 2nd month. Maybe if you actually paid attention to the pvp section every once in a while you'd see things aren't working as intended.

Edited by OldRepublicRevan
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I completely agree with this, and the few other post that mention this, the problem with our survivability is not that we take longer to go down than other class but rather that we can't do dmg while going down.

After playing a vanguard it's apparent that the main thing that makes their dps so high is their ability to get high impact bolt off every 6 seconds basically (lock out time of talent) while commandos/mercs cant do that cause we have a 2 second cast for a 45% chance and a 12 sec cd for a 60% chance to get the proc.

 

If they really dont want to make power shot an insta cast (it does do about twice the dmg of ion pulse) then a making full auto a 100%(or leave it at 60, not really sure for this one) and power shot a 90% chance to proc HiB could also work as a solution. it conserves the idea of ranged, 2 sec cast (1.5 with talent) is the same as getting two ion pulse off, which pretty much guarantees a proc, (45*2=90). this idea is mainly because it is not impossible to get one power shot off, but when it doesnt proc you basically wasted your time.

 

ps i know i've mixed in merc and trooper ability names

 

 

Or I was thinking if Instant cast is too OP, than combustible gas cylinder allows you to cast power shot while moving.

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Or I was thinking if Instant cast is too OP, than combustible gas cylinder allows you to cast power shot while moving.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=559457

 

the "Run and Gun" idea in that thread would give Merc the ability to get damage out when under pressure. Merc doesnt need instant cast power shot/tracer missile all the time, just when we are getting attacked by melee

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I wouldn't expect another response until they're ready to reveal their proposed changes. There's nothing more they can tell us, they have already admitted the class is not where it should be, although a lackluster response and acknowledgement of the problem, it was a response. Hope for the best, we have a long road ahead of us fellow Commandos/Mercenaries.
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I wouldn't expect another response until they're ready to reveal their proposed changes. There's nothing more they can tell us, they have already admitted the class is not where it should be, although a lackluster response and acknowledgement of the problem, it was a response. Hope for the best, we have a long road ahead of us fellow Commandos/Mercenaries.

^ Agreed.

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The problems with this subclass in PvP are very deep rooted. Escapability? Yes. Difficulty outputting dps when pressured? Yes. But even in the ideal scenario when you can free cast, this class is a FAIL. If you compare damage output from a Merc dps to those of the top dps subclasses in a statis Voidstar match where no one is dying and both sides can focus on dps output for a full 15 minutes, the Merc dps is at about 50% below that of Sage and Guardian Focus. And about 25% below that Sent Focus. It (Merc dps) is not competitive even in the conditions that best favor it. Take all that talk about subclasses being within 5% of each other and throw it out the window. That 5% garbage is based on meta averages. It has no factual basis in how top players play their toons using best practices. No Merc dps will ever be outputting 1.5 million in damage with the current status of the game, but the top dps classes can do that.

 

But BW is extremely reluctant to directly buff Merc damage output because Merc dps is already extremely good in PvE. Buffs to accuracy and buffs to removing movement restrictions are logical ways to buff Merc dps in PvP without overpowering them for PvE. The other logical step? Return DFA to its prior, wider damage radius. That step however would be a very direct admission from BW that they fundamentally misunderstood how PvP balance works in this game. What are the odds of that?

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People keep saying that Merc/Commando DPS is not good. I agree that they need some love, easily shutdown and interruptible, but their DPS is fine. I don't pvp alot with my mando anymore but they have great damage.

Comparing them to a Sorc/Sage, they have extreme burst. What they lack is an escape mechanic, like force speed.I like alot of the suggestions made in this thread and hopefully Allison & Co. really want to help.

I am not trolling, I just did not like people saying the damage is bad. I think the damage is fine other than the heavy reliance on Grav round/tracer missile. Even with that, the damage is strong and much more meaningful than, for example, a multi-dotting sorc/sage. Again, not looking for an argument, just a discussion.

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People keep saying that Merc/Commando DPS is not good. I agree that they need some love, easily shutdown and interruptible, but their DPS is fine. I don't pvp alot with my mando anymore but they have great damage.

Comparing them to a Sorc/Sage, they have extreme burst. What they lack is an escape mechanic, like force speed.I like alot of the suggestions made in this thread and hopefully Allison & Co. really want to help.

I am not trolling, I just did not like people saying the damage is bad. I think the damage is fine other than the heavy reliance on Grav round/tracer missile. Even with that, the damage is strong and much more meaningful than, for example, a multi-dotting sorc/sage. Again, not looking for an argument, just a discussion.

Overall damage is fine if allowed to freecast for an extended period of time, but I disagree regarding burst. Gunnery has steady damage if uninterrupted, but any "burst" is back-loaded on the rotation and highly dependent on optimal conditions (which is a big disadvantage in PvP where TTK is very short and you're unlikely to get a full rotation off due to unavoidable target-switching and constant interrupts/stuns/mezs/KBs etc. It certainly doesn't have enough burst to burn down a decent healer the way real burst-dps spec'd ACs do (perhaps that would be different if the AC had more tools to pre-empt self-heals, like the stealth-stun-burst ACs do). Commando burst is a little better on Assault, but I disagree with ppl who say that respec'ing to Assault spec makes Commandos equally desirable in PvP as other dps-spec'd ACs, despite an Assault -spec'd Commando's improved mobility over the other dps tree.
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I'm looking at this through the sage goggles. I would kill for Full Auto+Demo round burst. If you think killing a healer is hard on a Commando, try it on an operative or sage. It is truly laughable. However, all burst is relative when compared to a smash/sweep knight/warrior. The burst for the trooper/bh is all tied to grav/tracer so in that sense it sucks
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So apparently BW thinks mercs just need to get good at pillar humping to rock, and sorcs just need to kite classes that all have gap closers at their casting range.

 

I'm waiting for the breaking news story when a BW dev actually pvps for the first time in their life.

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I can't believe they gave corner/wall hugging as something to use. Obviously other ranged classes can also do that, BUT they also have even more tools to deal with melee, defensive cooldowns, and/or good mobility. Couple changes I would do:

  • Barrage procs allow that Unload to be castable while moving. This gives us a snare on the move (FINALLY) and some damage mobility.
  • Lower Thermal Sensor and Power Surge CD's to 1 min. Or Allow them to have stacks to give the next 3 or so abilities to get the effect.
  • Move the PowerShield talent in Bodyguard tree to switch with Superchaged Gas.

These changes wouldn't be very difficult IMO, but would really improve gameplay of the class.

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I'm looking at this through the sage goggles. I would kill for Full Auto+Demo round burst. If you think killing a healer is hard on a Commando, try it on an operative or sage. It is truly laughable. However, all burst is relative when compared to a smash/sweep knight/warrior. The burst for the trooper/bh is all tied to grav/tracer so in that sense it sucks

 

Ranged dps is not supposed to be a healer hard counter and it never was. Of all 3 classes, only sniper MM is the only class capable to al least threaten healers.

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Ranged dps is not supposed to be a healer hard counter and it never was. Of all 3 classes, only sniper MM is the only class capable to al least threaten healers.

 

please tell that to all the healers i kill :eek:

 

 

not to deter from the issue at hand; merc still needs to be given the tools to compete at a high level

Edited by cashogy
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Just came from an endless series of huttball matches. There are soooo many issues with this AC. The 100% lack of immunity to leaps + the prevalence of fotm Smashmonkeys in PvP now means that having a semi-immobile commando/merc guarding a strategic point is a liability. Dps commandos need to get off-node, off-objective, away from the ledges at mid, and onto the fringes. Put a gunslinger/sniper up above the ball respawn or across the acid/fire pits instead. Commando/mercs casting from a node or across a map hazard are continually used as pylons by leapers to get across the map instantly and totally bypass mdps, z-axis, obstacles and hazards. How many times have you seen a ball carrier leap the commando to get across the acid pool, change their z-axis or fast-track across a bridge. It just seems contrary to the whole concept of this "heavy armor" AC that they need need to skulk on the fringes of the fight, but there you go. And can commandos not get at least a half-assed movement buff? Edited by klham
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Just came from an endless series of huttball matches. There are soooo many issues with this AC. The 100% lack of immunity to leaps + the prevalence of fotm Smashmonkeys in PvP now means that having a semi-immobile commando/merc guarding a strategic point is a liability. Dps commandos need to get off-node, off-objective, away from the ledges at mid, and onto the fringes. Put a gunslinger/sniper up above the ball respawn or across the acid/fire pits instead. Commando/mercs casting from a node or across a map hazard are continually used as pylons by leapers to get across the map instantly and totally bypass mdps, z-axis, obstacles and hazards. How many times have you seen a ball carrier leap the commando to get across the acid pool, change their z-axis or fast-track across a bridge. It just seems contrary to the whole concept of this "heavy armor" AC that they need need to skulk on the fringes of the fight, but there you go. And can commandos not get at least a half-assed movement buff?

 

No. Nor can we get more utility or DPS.

 

Why?

 

Because GETBACKINYOURBOXYOUDIRTYCOMMANDO! is why.

 

We don't have glowsticks. We're supposed to lose. It's thematically appropriate or something. Buff Warriors/Knights some more.

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No. Nor can we get more utility or DPS.

 

Why?

 

Because GETBACKINYOURBOXYOUDIRTYCOMMANDO! is why.

 

We don't have glowsticks. We're supposed to lose. It's thematically appropriate or something. Buff Warriors/Knights some more.

 

but there was that cinematic trailer where the commando guy blows up a grenade right in that sith lord's face! and he lives!

 

THERE IS LEGAL PRECEDENT I TELL YOU!!! :cool:

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^ lol. I know, they made it look so great, didn't they.

 

Right now I'm grinding WZ comms to finish off my WH set for when 1.6 comes out, and it's just a miserable experience. I don't know why I'm putting myself through it. The last few Huttball matches really made me miss Storm & Harpoon on my Vanguard (to say nothing of Hold the Line...). At least those are interesting utilities that can be used in a dozen different ways to make WZs entertaining for the player behind the 'toon. There's no clever tricks commandos can play that compare to that (sry devs but pillar humping doesn't count as a clever trick - that's just what everyone does). Pulling someone into the fire pit never gets old when you're the one doing it....same thing with popping out of stealth and totally flooring someone, like assassins and Ops do all the time). In addition to all the other improvements that have been discussed, it would be nice to have one really cool gimmick we can pop that gives us that gotcha moment that every other class gets to enjoy.

 

There's just a complete lack of imagination in how this AC was designed. It was obviously an after-thought when compared to the other ACs. Great storyline & look though - that's what took me in. I love everything about the class right down to the voice acting, but boy does it ever need work to be viable in high-level PvP.

Edited by klham
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