Welcome to the back to the thread! I hope you're having a fun and safe holiday season.

Allow me try to set your mind at ease. Disney is very pro-LGBT rights. They offer benefits to same sex couples; they perform same sex marriages at their theme parks and cruises. Also, long after they bought out Marvel, there was a same sex marriage in an issue of X-Men from June 2012.

So it won't get worse with Disney; there is a good chance that more inclusion of LGBT content/subjects could come up down the road.

Given the nature of this topic, I do have a lot of researched links readily available to support this. I'm just feeling a little lazy at the moment.

With LucasArts, George Lucas has actively come out supporting LGBT rights more than once. Plus, there was a gay Mandalorian couple from the books. I can toss you a link to those. The author Karen Traviss wrote them and they are considered canon. From my research, not much got by Lucas and he did have to approve the content of the games and the novels.

The games had SGRs in it too, with KOTOR and Jade Empire. Both of which was also done by BioWare.

Speaking of which, as far as BioWare goes, I'm not sure if you've played Dragon Age. In Origins, there are two bisexual characters available for SGRs and so far the writing is top notch. They don't try to hide or pretend various forms of sexuality are non existent. It's actually pretty matter-of-fact. So they don't try to hide it there.

I haven't played the ME series, but I did read a lot about EA/BW standing up for LGBT content after having SGRs in Mass Effect 3. So I can't speak from personal experience there.

I've got an awesome quote from the lead writer of Dragon Age (he also wrote HK-47 in KOTOR, among other characters) talking about how the games are for everyone and not just the majority. I know where BioWare-Edmonton stands on this at least and Dragon Age 3 is going to have SGRs in it as well.

EA had the Sims as well with having same gender marriage for years, with couples being allowed to adopt. And there has been several articles throughout the last couple of years about both EA and BioWare being happy and proud to include LGBT content.

From my months of research, everything I've read about BioWare, EA, LucasArts and Disney's stances on LGBT content/equality, it makes this silence much more puzzling.

If you'd like, check out the "Heart of a Jedi" link down on my signature. That will take you to the SGRA FAQ, which talks about this and more. It also has a ton of link and quotes collected by myself and the rest of the thread over the last 10 months.

Yet even more reasons why we need an update. Sadly, EAware has all the power to calm a lot of this Sith storm down, but haven't done so yet.

I love TVtropes but...they will swallow your soul. Evil Dead style.

While the industry definitely need more games of this kind breaking off from the "man saves woman" cliché, you're trying to compare a game with a static but largely undefined protagonist (and an equally static story) to a game where the player's ability to define/customize their character and experience.

 

Sure, I'd love it if Nintendo would mix things up in the character department, such as making Zelda the main protagonist, or maybe doing some gender-swapping, but after 26 years of "the young boy Link saves Princess Zelda" it would be much more difficult to break from their established pattern than to simply create a new franchise with completely different characters.

 

TL;DR: Link and Zelda are always Link and Zelda. BioWare games let you create your own characters.

 

 

 

Oh, nice one. Without confirming nor denying anything about your own identity, you talk down to your opposition by implying that they're irrational. Yet your refusal to make a clear statement about your orientation, likely because you feel that it being known would be detrimental to your argument against the accusations of privilege, only serves to confirm the suspicions raised in my mind.

 

 

 

BioWare Edmonton and BioWare Austin are different entities.

 

They may claim to have the same values that have come to be associated with the BioWare brand in recent years, but only one has the track record to back it up.

 

 

 

I too have found moderators to be quite overzealous during clean-up in this thread. It's not unusual that a post containing responses to two previous posts is deleted because one of the responses was to something provocative.

 

I suppose they think that pruning everything related to the questionable posts is the easiest way to go about things.

But the player doesn't define the storyline. The storyline is for the most part static, with a few options that have no effect on anything.

My BH was forced into picking up a companion that should of had the option to not grab. I won't get into more details than that, as I think any more than that is spoiler territory and I don't want to spoil it.

My SI was forced into her spot and had no option to ignore it, as that's where the storyline says SI's end up.

If the romance options had any real impact on the storyline, I'd find this to be more a important issue. And I'm not even saying "dont want this" though people seem to be thinking that.

And it's awesome to see BW has said they don't plan to ignore the minority. Still lost on how one can't play their character as OGR, just because they arent OGR. It's call roleplay for a reason. It's not you.

Also, it has me thinking...where's is the male dancers in the cantinas? Nevermind the SGR, what about the female players! Where's the Magic Mikes?!

20% of players are likely smokers! Where's the cigarette emote? Maybe I want my character to smoke?

10% of the players are likely into substance abuse! Why can't my characters be strung out on spice! Narcotics is a part of SW lore!

Over 50% of players likely drink. We have cantinas! Where's my drinking emote and cantina cutscene so my character can come off as a drunken smuggler/bountyhunter (which come on, those two classes just scream to have the drunk/party male/female).

What I want is for BW to figure out what's more profitable to keep the game going and keep on that track. Which I don't think adding SGR will hurt it's profits, I just don't think it'll boost them either. And if they grow stagnant in their profits, I fear the company laying off more people to make it look like bigger profits, and then less added content, thus more people leaving, as it works it's way down the downward spiral, till it gets to a point where they say "not enough profits, we're closing down"

Went through that with one MMO, I'd hate for that to happen to this one. So I'm willing to be patient on the matter.

Oh, nice one. Without confirming nor denying anything about your own identity, you talk down to your opposition by implying that they're irrational. Yet your refusal to make a clear statement about your orientation, likely because you feel that it being known would be detrimental to your argument against the accusations of privilege, only serves to confirm the suspicions raised in my mind.

More along the lines that in this discussion one's orientation shouldn't have a factor in it. No matter what I say on it, one side or the other will say, that's because you're "this" or they'll say "yeah right, you're lying."

Been in these discussions before. It's a message forum discussion. Really it just comes down to "if you don't enjoy the discussion why are you even reading the thread, when the answer will be posted by the devs when it happens" because after all, this thread has long gone past the OP.

If I told you I was a bi female conservative. Would you believe it? Gay white male? Transgendered? Someone with GID? As a previous poster already showed, assumed I was a white straight male, because I didn't instantly say "I deserve this" and said instead "I think the company should do what's best for the company." basically didn't agree or really, didin't agree to the degree they would have prefered.

The company provides a service. If it's not a service you want/like my opinion on that has always been "don't give them your patronage."

I would't walk into a strip club and go "Where are my male dancers?!" I wouldn't walk into the club.

I see nothing wrong with asking "Can we get these in." I see a problem with "I feel entitled too and/or discrimated against to a service you're not providing." When they're not denying anyone access to what they are providing.

I come from a family of non-smokers who will tell you it's the dumbest thing to ever do. Instead of voting to force businesses to not-cater to the smoking clientel, they voted to leave it up to the business and if that business had them sitting in a cloud of smoke, they wouldn't go to said business.

Basically, I think the people should have the freedom to be who they are, and businesses should have the freedom to make a product how they want. If the business fails because of it, the next company will learn from it.

Now all this said, would it be hard, while we're at it, to include some bishi male models in this game? ^_^ That would be greatly appreciated as well.

The fact they somehow still had the budget and time to do the OGRs, but not SGR? Yeah, that's where the exclusionary talk comes into it.

I know right.

This wouldn't be an issue if there were no OGRAs in game or only a few encounters.

But if you sit down to think about it, there are a lot of OGRA encounters. Every class has at least one male and one female that's a fully fleshed romance option. Some classes have 2 female options. Some classes allow a fling with a companion. Then there's an abundance of [Flirt] opportunities with these companions.

On top of that, there's all the one night stands/flings with NPCs.

It seems to me that they had plenty of time/money to throw at romance but it ALL went to OGRAs.

Granted I am a bit of a lurker...I hopped in between 1.1 and 1.2.

So we are almost at the end of 2012, and I recall being told quite a few months back that SGRs would be implimented before the end of the year.

Tomorrow is New Year's Eve...so while hardly holding my breath for a sweet patch in a few hours; is it time to give up?

Nope. I'm not pinning all my hopes on getting an update by Jan 1st, and I knew that when helped start the emailing campaign last month.

I bear in mind one nit-picky detail about the Guild Summit announcement.

They never specified in 2012. They were actually very careful not to clarify if it was in 2012 or within the year of the Guild Summit (which would be March 2013)

So no reason to give up at this point. As we add more pressure to BW/EA, the greater our chances of getting an answer are. We've been writing the media as well as other groups, so I'm going that route.

I keep truckin'. I hope you can do the same and not give up.

I'll say again that it shouldn't have come to this, but BW:A really has it coming to them.

I know right.

 

This wouldn't be an issue if there were no OGRAs in game or only a few encounters.

 

But if you sit down to think about it, there are a lot of OGRA encounters. Every class has at least one male and one female that's a fully fleshed romance option. Some classes have 2 female options. Some classes allow a fling with a companion. Then there's an abundance of [Flirt] opportunities with these companions.

 

On top of that, there's all the one night stands/flings with NPCs.

 

It seems to me that they had plenty of time/money to throw at romance but it ALL went to OGRAs.

Still not sure there isn't some upper management at BW Austin so against SGRAs that they throw every obstacle they can in the path. I mean they intentionally made the game cost more money than it had to by delaying SGRAs. And in my experience, very few things trump money. One of them is belief. So it could be a someone (or a group) that has taken it upon themselves to make the exclusion of SGRAs as their own personal Crusade.

Now I'd hope that wouldn't be the case in this day and age, but in the total absence of anything that we get regarding this subject conspiracy theories will always come up.

If you think about it, it cost them more to exclude SGRAs with the extra programming and voice work than it would have to include it.

 

Still not sure there isn't some upper management at BW Austin so against SGRAs that they throw every obstacle they can in the path. I mean they intentionally made the game cost more money than it had to by delaying SGRAs. And in my experience, very few things trump money. One of them is belief. So it could be a someone (or a group) that has taken it upon themselves to make the exclusion of SGRAs as their own personal Crusade.

 

Now I'd hope that wouldn't be the case in this day and age, but in the total absence of anything that we get regarding this subject conspiracy theories will always come up.

I don't see how it costs more to exclude, as people aren't working on it at that moment in time. And part of an MMO is people paying money, so they can afford to add more content.

I doubt that's the case though. Sounds to conspiracy theory, and their past games would make me believe otherwise as well.

I'm not against the gender token. But, MMOs stories are linear, just like a console single player game. You just don't think it is, because the illusion of choices.

 

The company can only do so many choices. It will get to the point in the games storyline will you will look at it, and wonder to yourself, how did this event happen, if my character did this choice?

 

The storyline is planned to get you from point A to point B.

Actually, while the stories do seem quite linear, there are still different paths through the story. There are at least three ways to end the IA story for example. Jan'neria's story is different to many other IAs - for example:

It's beside the point though. If you can alter the very appearance of your companion (even to the point to altering the apparent ethnicity of human companions - Corso and Elara can be black, Mako and Iresso can be white, for example, depending on the customization chosen), why can't each companion's sexuality be different in different people's games?

And the bad writing is a valid concern. Admittedly, one I think only a few players would likely take notice of.

 

My thought on this, is people feel entitled to something in a product they don't have to support. Wanting answers is fine. But if they give an answer that doesn't equal what you want, then they're ragged on anyways.

 

They said it was excluded due to budget and time restraints. I can see that as being totally truthful. I can see them ending up putting it on the backburner untill they think it's ready and they're not covering other things that they think has priority over this part of the game. I can see why they would put it lower on the list.

Are you a veteran MMO player? If you are, you know that it doesn't matter what a company running an MMO does, they will be ragged on by the community. It shouldn't stop them from doing the right thing.

All I want is an answer either way - are they still intending to release this content, yes/no. If they say no, I'll breath a sigh of relief and start leveling the character's I've been leaving alone. If they say yes, I'll breath a sigh of relief and patiently wait for the content before leveling said characters.

Are you a veteran MMO player? If you are, you know that it doesn't matter what a company running an MMO does, they will be ragged on by the community. It shouldn't stop them from doing the right thing.

 

All I want is an answer either way - are they still intending to release this content, yes/no. If they say no, I'll breath a sigh of relief and start leveling the character's I've been leaving alone. If they say yes, I'll breath a sigh of relief and patiently wait for the content before leveling said characters.

I am. That's why I keep saying the best policy for BW is keep their mouth shut on what is coming untill it's actually coming, just saying "Soon", "On the to do list" or "Not likely to ever happen" and never giving an actual date or time frame.

The game could be perfect. And people will just find something else to complain about. Likely complaining that it's perfect, fits all their wants/needs, and now it's to much for them.

Nope. I'm not pinning all my hopes on getting an update by Jan 1st, and I knew that when helped start the emailing campaign last month.

 

I bear in mind one nit-picky detail about the Guild Summit announcement.

 

They never specified in 2012. They were actually very careful not to clarify if it was in 2012 or within the year of the Guild Summit (which would be March 2013)

 

So no reason to give up at this point. As we add more pressure to BW/EA, the greater our chances of getting an answer are. We've been writing the media as well as other groups, so I'm going that route.

 

I keep truckin'. I hope you can do the same and not give up.

 

I'll say again that it shouldn't have come to this, but BW:A really has it coming to them.

Ok Nats if you'll hold the banner I'll keep on charging right behind you. After all your brave posts here has kept my hope alive this long.

Now, time to channel my Braveheart 'Freedom' speech (yeah, before the actor's rants thank you)...

Wow, more strawmen on this last page alone than in the entire state of Kansas. These repeat trolls are really getting their act down now.

One day left before the original deadline or at least what I felt was implied.. but obviously it isn't going to happen. Can only hope it comes soon.. ironically if it is in the expansion it could be considered like the argument from the original incarnation of this thread.. you have to pay extra for it

Pay2Gay. Not only do you get the pleasure of being excluded and discriminated against for the last year now you get to PAY Bioware to tell them it was okay to do so. I'm sure that is going to go over well. I would hope that would be the point folks still holding out hope would realize BW-Austin just doesn't get it.

If you think about it, it cost them more to exclude SGRAs with the extra programming and voice work than it would have to include it.

 

Still not sure there isn't some upper management at BW Austin so against SGRAs that they throw every obstacle they can in the path. I mean they intentionally made the game cost more money than it had to by delaying SGRAs. And in my experience, very few things trump money. One of them is belief. So it could be a someone (or a group) that has taken it upon themselves to make the exclusion of SGRAs as their own personal Crusade.

 

Now I'd hope that wouldn't be the case in this day and age, but in the total absence of anything that we get regarding this subject conspiracy theories will always come up.

You're exactly right that it cost more to exclude SGRAs. All the other storylines play out exactly the same whether you're male or female, aside from the occasional pronoun difference and very rare acknowledgement of your gender or race. That's because its easier/cheaper for them to do, while still being plenty of fun for the players. SImply applying that exact same model to the romances would've been exactly what we wanted, and it would've been the same result, cheaper and easier and still plenty of fun. Of course you always like it when they throw in those little references to your gender or race, but just like in the rest of the game, it isn't necessary for it to still be plenty of fun. And I certainly wouldn't want to be denied the ability to do any of the other storylines/quests because of my gender either.

You're also right that it was done due to an agenda, a preference by the head fellow or fellows, to not have SGRs in the game. They went to a lot of trouble to make sure that we didn't get any romances at all, or even any flirt options. The idea that they wouldn't even let us have flirt options, thats a lot of trouble to go to, keeping all that out for us. Its like I said before, and others have said, just give everybody the same options, its easier, its cheaper, and everybody is happy. Thats why they do it that way in other games, whether you're talking about Skyrim, DD, Fallout NV, DA2, whatever, making the romances (and flirts) available to everybody is SO much easier and less expensive than doing it the way these folks have done it, and it's a lot more fun for a lot more people. Adding time and expense and taking away fun options isn't something that normally is done on purpose, you only do that if you have an agenda. Hopefully the criticism and pressure they're receiving will ultimately cause them to relent on that agenda, I'd say there's a real good chance that it will, especially when you look at the Legacy system. Yes its virtually meaningless, but if the same folks who made the decision to keep the SGRs out a couple years or so ago, back when the decision was first made, were still in charge and still as determined to keep all SGR content out of the game, it wouldn't have been all that hard to add in something to prevent us from marrying characters of the same gender. Certainly they've shown that willingness to spend extra time and effort to take away those types of fun options before, they would've simply done it again if they were so inclined. It suggests that somebody else may be in charge of these types of decisions now, or simply that the pressure is causing them to change their minds. But whatever their reasons, the Legacy system is proof that things seem to be changing in the right direction as it relates to romance options in the game, its something to help keep us thinking positively as we look toward the future.

I love it every post I made last night as to why I could not elaborate as to my opposition to SGR has been deleted, typical of this thread. ITS A VIDEO GAME not real life, you act like this somehow is taking away your rights in real life when it isn't. I posted a thread regarding character transfers, I was then informed by a certain person that we can not have duplicate threads yet this topic can...yet you talk about being excluded.If some of you are so offended by not having SGR's why are you still here playing if it's so painful to see the OGR flirts. I was pleasant last night and so was Kioma in disagreement with me yet my stuff is gone and half of the posts did pertain to SGR, silence them if they don't agree with you. I am going to take a page out of someone else's book I have some letters to write.

You were, in fact, quite civil.

You're also right that it was done due to an agenda, a preference by the head fellow or fellows, to not have SGRs in the game. They went to a lot of trouble to make sure that we didn't get any romances at all, or even any flirt options. The idea that they wouldn't even let us have flirt options, thats a lot of trouble to go to, keeping all that out for us.

It is pretty obvious the "due to time and money" BS was just a smokescreen to begin with. The decision to exclude SGRA content from the game was clearly done due to the ideology of BW-Austin's leadership during development. The extra voice recording and programming time required to create a mechanism of gender checks for dialogue (both things done no where else in the game) to exclude the GLBT community from the game by itself would have been stricken from the development schedule if this was truly about time and money. This has pretty clearly been about someone(s) prejudice since day 1.

If you think about it, it cost them more to exclude SGRAs with the extra programming and voice work than it would have to include it..

Yeah, it probably would have been cheaper to add it concurrently from the beginning.

And...the new year approaches. Still hoping Makeb goes to PTS soon and we see something there. I think I have a lvl 10 SW on there (I made it to test the new WZ last patch and then I could never get a queue to pop lol). I think they stated they would have character copy for the Makeb PTS release though.

Ok Nats if you'll hold the banner I'll keep on charging right behind you. After all your brave posts here has kept my hope alive this long.

 

Now, time to channel my Braveheart 'Freedom' speech (yeah, before the actor's rants thank you)...

D'aww, thanks. It means a lot to read that.

I played AC/DC a few days ago for my song to get fired up. Braveheart works too.

One poster managed to do the speech from the movie Independence Day ala SGRs. It made me giggle pretty hard.

I know that we can make a difference. And I know we're helping ToR in the long run.

Correct me if I'm wrong but...

I heard about the very unsatisfactory ending to ME3. I even know a little bit why it was so insulting to fans. So the fans started writing BW/EA, writing the press, posting and doing whatever they could to make their displeasure and frustration known.

Now, as I recall, this actually paid off. BW ended up releasing a free DLC pack that did a lot to help fix the ending and remove some of the bad taste in the mouths of the players. I saw that impact and it said a lot. That was another inspiration for me as well.

Email campaigns, if applied constructively, can help make games better. Developers should not cater to every player whim. There are examples of MMOs that have truly failed because of this. Yet, developers and producers need to be reminded about how their actions can be seen by the players themselves. The players do have a right as paying customers to be treated with respect and dignity. They do have the right to find out about missing content after almost a year since the last update.

We pay them money, whether it be through sub or Cartel Market. The customer isn't always right, but the customer has a right to find about more about a promised feature with a purchase.

It can and will make a difference. It's hard, I know. Oh, I do understand that well. There is no harm in trying though, contrary to what a few have said. So why not?

I'm going to stand by my convictions and see this thing through. One way or the other, I want a freaking update and I will not stop until one is given. That's all I can do for now.

I actually didn't mind the ending to ME3 - the one I saw, at least, as I only went through one. There were points that didn't make a hell of a lot fo sense but my imagination filled the gaps and it seemed pretty neat.

Having said that I'm glad there was an uproar because the extended ending for that final option was SO MUCH BETTER. It turns out my imagination had supplied the same thing that the DLC ending did but hey, it was still better than the original ending.

So yes, fans do have an impact and can make a difference - IF the company is actually listening. I'm not convinced that BW:A are because they're given no indication of it (on this matter, at least).

You know, considering that the deadline for RotHC Early Access via Pre-Order is Jan 7, I wonder if they're waiting until then to announce something.

Can't understand why, considering I think it would add more pre-orders than it would drive away, but who knows.

We can assume that it's not due to come out that fast so I wonder why they have such a weird cut-off date...

You know, considering that the deadline for RotHC Early Access via Pre-Order is Jan 7, I wonder if they're waiting until then to announce something.

 

Can't understand why, considering I think it would add more pre-orders than it would drive away, but who knows.

 

We can assume that it's not due to come out that fast so I wonder why they have such a weird cut-off date...

I'd guess that that's when they all get back from vacation and so will be there to change the settings regarding the price of it?

I actually didn't mind the ending to ME3 - the one I saw, at least, as I only went through one. There were points that didn't make a hell of a lot fo sense but my imagination filled the gaps and it seemed pretty neat.

 

Having said that I'm glad there was an uproar because the extended ending for that final option was SO MUCH BETTER. It turns out my imagination had supplied the same thing that the DLC ending did but hey, it was still better than the original ending.

 

So yes, fans do have an impact and can make a difference - IF the company is actually listening. I'm not convinced that BW:A are because they're given no indication of it (on this matter, at least).

To be blunt...I guess I'm trying to make them listen them listen to us. Take the metaphorical fingers out of their ears. I'm not sure if it will work. Yet I maintain some optimism in the midst of all of us. Again, no harm in trying and better than letting the company ignore us until we go away.

I'm a critical optimist, of course, but I try to remain upbeat.

I love how much people think saying "love it or leave it" is a right-winger approach. That approach isn't right-winger. That's just a majority of America approach. And shows a lack of paying attention to politics and issues in America.

Fair point - I was half-awake and struggling for the actual term. Over here, the Party that most employs that 'argument' is the Liberal Party who aren't in fact Liberal...

It may still be English, but these things just don't translate across the borders. To borrow a phrase, I'll just call them "impoliticans"

You know, considering that the deadline for RotHC Early Access via Pre-Order is Jan 7, I wonder if they're waiting until then to announce something.

 

Can't understand why, considering I think it would add more pre-orders than it would drive away, but who knows.

 

We can assume that it's not due to come out that fast so I wonder why they have such a weird cut-off date...

That's actually been my suspicion now for a couple of weeks. I found out Joveth Gonzales gets back from vacation on January 7th, so I think that's when we'll see the update. I hope.

I'm proceeding with extreme caution however. I don't trust BioWare: Austin one bit. They have been very shady in their treatment of all of this. I've been taking it as a tentative good sign though. I'm still determined to try to help make sure this update happens.

I'm proceeding with extreme caution however. I don't trust BioWare: Austin one bit. They have been very shady in their treatment of all of this. I've been taking it as a tentative good sign though. I'm still determined to try to help make sure this update happens.

Weighing up the "this year" and how it's exact-wording can be taken, just had another troubling thought from re-watching the Erickson video.

"It's coming with full story" - whatever 'full story' entails, I'm not sure, but I'm feeling sceptical about it applying to RoTHC and its lack of Class Arcs. I don't know... here's hoping for something beyond the "please throw more money at our lack of information" pre-purchase page.