KariTalRathe Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 DPS generate 1 threat per 1 damage done. Before any modifiers. DPS also, do not get any threat reduction talents. DPS do get threat reduction abilities, though you may not see them deployed often enough. I haven't got a PT and someone has already pointed out that they are the only DPS class without some kind of threat reduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steave Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 DPS do get threat reduction abilities, though you may not see them deployed often enough. I haven't got a PT and someone has already pointed out that they are the only DPS class without some kind of threat reduction. He said talents, not abilities. Healers get the abilities too, but have a talent in addition to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternalnight Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 When I pug I never just assume my DPS know what they're doing. And I don't feel like spending some time grilling them about kill order. So I tend to just put Guard on the healer because I assume I'm the only one with any sense. I'm often right "Often right"? No, you are not, if you think guarding healer helps at all. Next time instead of reading just the first line, try reading the whole post. Do I really need to explain it again? Healer will ALWAYS have aggro on any and all mobs that neither the tanks or the dps are not doing any damage on, regardless of whether or not the healer has a guard on him. Healer will NEVER have aggro on any mobs that the tank OR dps are doing constantly damage on, regardless of whether or not the healer has a guard on him. In either case, a guard on a healer will do absolutely no difference what so ever. Healing threat is so low it is impossible for them to overaggro anyone else who has threat. The only time healers will have aggro is when they are the only one in the mob's threat list. It does not make any difference what so ever if you have guard on a healer to even further lower his threat, because if they are the only one in that target's threat list, they are still on the top of the threat list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronniehenlau Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I did a Lost Island hardmode some time ago (random group w/ group finder) on my tank. When I zoned in, I saw it was a premade from a guild (3 from the guild + me). I figured this was gonna be a nice easy run, since everyone was decently geared. As normal, I guarded the marauder in full black hole gear (slightly optimized). I wasnt certain he would pull aggro, but it was either him, a sorc healer or a sorc dps (lol). The marauder then went on and on about that I should guard the healer. I told him that guarding the healer had little to no point in this game, as healing barely generates threat, and if I hit a mob once with my basic attack, that's enough to hold aggro off the healer. The marauder went on and on about this shait, even to the point where the other dps from his guild told him to stuff it. He refused to stop, and said 'If I were the healer, I would leave'. He then did a vote-kick on me (the tank, and you know.. tanks are easy to get for LI HM). Both the other guys voted no, of course, but I told him to shove it and left. I whispered the other dps that I had nothing against him or the healer, but that I wasnt gonna spend that entire flashpoint beeing berrated by a clueless dps. He whispered back and said 'Lol dont worry, I left that stupid group as well'. I then queued again once my lockout expired, got an instapop for LI, searched for Lost Island, and saw that outside of my group, the only people in LI was, you guessed it, the marauder + healer Checked again after we killed lorrick.. Yep, they were still in there. Good times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelicbod Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 There is a reason to guard a healer and I'm rather surprised that after 3 pages of discussion it hasn't be stated. If a tank can hold aggro against DPS, guarding a healer is a viable alternative if nothing more then for the 5% reduction in damage the healer would take. Granted the 5% could just be given to a dps, but frankly I'd rather my healer take less damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbare Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) There is a reason to guard a healer and I'm rather surprised that after 3 pages of discussion it hasn't be stated. If a tank can hold aggro against DPS, guarding a healer is a viable alternative if nothing more then for the 5% reduction in damage the healer would take. Granted the 5% could just be given to a dps, but frankly I'd rather my healer take less damage. Yep, that is 100% correct. However, because dps are very overpowered in this game with respect to tanks, you almost always will have to guard the dps for the first 20 or so secs of a fight w/ similar gear/skill of course. Because tanking stats add absolutely nothing to aggro generation, the higher tier gear the group has, the harder it gets to keep aggro. You do get some extra mainstat, but the secondary stats are all tanking stats, while the dps gets secondary stats that add to dps which adds to aggro. Edited February 13, 2013 by bbare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) There is a reason to guard a healer and I'm rather surprised that after 3 pages of discussion it hasn't be stated. If a tank can hold aggro against DPS, guarding a healer is a viable alternative if nothing more then for the 5% reduction in damage the healer would take. Granted the 5% could just be given to a dps, but frankly I'd rather my healer take less damage. Honestly, guard whoever you want during trash pulls, it doesn't make a difference. Just don't expect that guarding someone is going to make up for a failure in the team to do a good job. When I'm healing the first trash pull in False Emperor and the tank has opened with an area taunt (lulwhut) taken one of the droids, one of the dps is attacking that same droid, and the other dps is attacking the second droid, and nobody is bothering with the two sith or the ranged in the back, when that area taunt wears off I'm going to be killed in 10 seconds by the rest of the group. With the 5% damage reduction I'll last 10.5 seconds. Lawdy lawdy. Edited February 13, 2013 by Khevar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maelicbod Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Yep, that is 100% correct. However, because dps are very overpowered in this game with respect to tanks, you almost always will have to guard the dps for the first 20 or so secs of a fight w/ similar gear/skill of course. Because tanking stats add absolutely nothing to aggro generation, the higher tier gear the group has, the harder it gets to keep aggro. You do get some extra mainstat, but the secondary stats are all tanking stats, while the dps gets secondary stats that add to dps which adds to aggro. This is just wrong. My shadow is geared to maintain aggro against DG sentinels who go balls out from the get go of a fight, while still maintain the 30/65/60 mitigation stats that is expected of me. I haven't guarded a dps in quite some time, 50-50 laziness/lack of need. While not all tank classes are created equal where aggro generation is involved, but a blanket claim that tank aggro cannot keep up with DPS aggro is fallacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthehoyden Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) There is a reason to guard a healer and I'm rather surprised that after 3 pages of discussion it hasn't be stated. If a tank can hold aggro against DPS, guarding a healer is a viable alternative if nothing more then for the 5% reduction in damage the healer would take. Granted the 5% could just be given to a dps, but frankly I'd rather my healer take less damage. I'm fairly sure that guard only gives that 5% damage reduction in pvp. Edit: Nevermind, rechecked the ability. 5% damage reduction is in pve as well. Edited February 13, 2013 by iamthehoyden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebevo Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) when I saw "grd plz" I thought they were talking about Greed Please. Can't believe 4 pages of this debate again. HMFP are a joke in OP's grear, he needed to giard no one. My healer is lesser geared, but she does not need to be guarded. 5% deduction, onw HoT is more than that. When I dps I am offended when I'm guarded. Makes me think I don't know my class or role. As a healer I feel it is a waste of time. In case you can't tell I hate guards. Edited February 14, 2013 by mikebevo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slafko Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 This happens all the time, but this one really made me laugh. Using my full Dread Guard Assasin tank with the Warstalker title. Right at the start of the FP a DPS in Columi and the healer both pop out "grd plz". Good thing people try and keep the flashpoints entertaining. I got that from a healer a few days ago. He was insisting I needed to guard him and going on about it the whole time. The funniest part was at the beginning, however. He insisted that there are no CC's to be usen in The Esseles FP as a shadow tank. You talk dumb stuff like that, you're getting guarded only after you exit the instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never_Hesitate Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 This is just wrong. My shadow is geared to maintain aggro against DG sentinels who go balls out from the get go of a fight, while still maintain the 30/65/60 mitigation stats that is expected of me. I haven't guarded a dps in quite some time, 50-50 laziness/lack of need. While not all tank classes are created equal where aggro generation is involved, but a blanket claim that tank aggro cannot keep up with DPS aggro is fallacy. PT's and Assas/Vanguards and shadows may not have any problems, but on my jugg tank aggro is a whole other thing. AOE tanking abilities: 2, one on a 15s cd and the othe on 3 mobs, if the mob your hitting with it has 5 stacks of sundering armor. Aggro generation: very low, because we don't do as much dmg as the other two tanks. So I have to guard a dps (especially PT's as they don't have an aggro reduce) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyronamics Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 There is no point to ever guard a healer in PvE if the tank and the dps any clue on what they should be doing. TFB TTFB 2nd phase, guard -> healers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hovergame Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 TFB TTFB 2nd phase, guard -> healers. You got a point. But I want one too ! What's the point to guard a DPS when you can easily keep the mobs ? Guard the heal, -5% damage could help him ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never_Hesitate Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 You got a point. But I want one too ! What's the point to guard a DPS when you can easily keep the mobs ? Guard the heal, -5% damage could help him ! And what's the reason to guard the healer if you can easily keep the mob? he will not get a lot of dmg as no mobs attack him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebevo Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 And what's the reason to guard the healer if you can easily keep the mob? he will not get a lot of dmg as no mobs attack him unavoidable damage? Damage that is raid wide. however I would say it is more depended on the groups gear. If healers are both well geared, put the guard on the mdps that stays in for lightining phase and any other dps/healer that seems to be taking excessive damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viridiana Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I only ever throw guard on a dps and that's typically when i'm running with buddies that I know can pull some threat off me because of their rotation and gear, the rest of the time I just laugh if someone says that, had a merc dps ask for it in EV sm one time becuase he couldn't use chaff flare apparently, best part is he was attacking mobs I didn't have threat on atm so it wasn't surprising they attacked him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hovergame Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 And what's the reason to guard the healer if you can easily keep the mob? he will not get a lot of dmg as no mobs attack him Last bosses of Kaon. Ok, now noone cares, but one year ago, when the healer could die if he was pinned down, a 5% damage reduction was REALLY usefull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never_Hesitate Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Last bosses of Kaon. Ok, now noone cares, but one year ago, when the healer could die if he was pinned down, a 5% damage reduction was REALLY usefull. Maybe it was, but nowadays the thing is dead before it can really do any dmg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RendValor Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Yep, that is 100% correct. However, because dps are very overpowered in this game with respect to tanks, you almost always will have to guard the dps for the first 20 or so secs of a fight w/ similar gear/skill of course. Because tanking stats add absolutely nothing to aggro generation, the higher tier gear the group has, the harder it gets to keep aggro. You do get some extra mainstat, but the secondary stats are all tanking stats, while the dps gets secondary stats that add to dps which adds to aggro. Except any competent tank will use DPS armorings/hilt/barrel and power crystals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hovergame Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Except any competent tank will use DPS armorings/hilt/barrel and power crystals. Or not. Any Shadow/Assassin needing some DPS gear is bad, unless he's undergeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jilisipone Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) There is no one answer for who to guard in all situations. There are two components to guard to keep in mind. 1) 25% Threat Reduction 2) 5% Damage Reduction Component 1 is primarily to hold threat off of DPS classes when needed as healer threat is negligible when tanks/dps are doing their job correctly. Now if the healer is throwing out damage spells in between heals and hitting non-primary mobs...then that's their own fault (just FYI...I'm fine with a healer DPSing when no heals are needed....but plz assist the tank so you don't generate extra threat on mobs they aren't concentrating on). Component 2 of guard is useful for anyone on the team, even when everyone is doing their job correctly. Most fights have AoE damage that goes on and DPS do take some damage from the weak/standard/strong enemies they should be killing before moving on to champions and above. So that 5% damage reduction helps. Ultimately if a tank can keep aggro on all the mobs he needs to without using guard.....then it comes down to deciding who is going to get the 5% damage reduction. Generally I'll put in on whatever DPS is acting as the "offtank" for the stronger mobs most often. The only other option to consider is if you have an undergeared player that has very low hitpoints and will die to some AoE damage....giving them guard helps keep them alive and their DPS or HPS involved (regardless of how high or low that number might be). All else being equal...the player most likely to die from ancillary damage benefits from guard most....regardless of if they are DPS or Healer. The ONLY time I ever ask for guard on my DPS classes are: 1) If I've pulled champion level mob+ aggro more than once in the flashpoint after having killed any adds. 2) If the tank hasn't guarded anyone and we are 3-4 pulls into the Flashpoint. A lot of times some tanks seem to think it's "cool" if they can complete a FP without guarding anyone at all. Not using guard at all is a bigger issue than guarding the "wrong" person. I think a lot of people that rage quit over a healer not getting guard are primarily PvPers where guarding a healer is a much greater priority. Also...on a side note.....I'm tired of seeing people using the "I'm an X with the Warstalker title" as an excuse for anything. OK..so you managed to complete NiM Denova in under 2 hours....that doesn't mean that you did it as a tank and/or that you have any idea how to tank. For all I know you have played as DPS for the last year and are just now respecing to tank due to a guild need and practicing in HM FPs. The Warstalker title isn't a free pass to knowing everything. Edited February 14, 2013 by Jilisipone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 That only works when you fighting a Boss, when it comes to trash pulls the DPS are usually attacking everything the Tank isn't attacking.... As a healer during trash pulls if I end up being swarmed by mobs because the Tank is just concentrating on one mob then that's when I stop healing them until they throw a guard up on me to reduce the healing aggro... In that situation, guard wouldn't help you anyways. There is no reason to ever guard a healer in PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icebergy Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 When I dps I am offended when I'm guarded. Makes me think I don't know my class or role. As a healer I feel it is a waste of time. In case you can't tell I hate guards. I consider it more of a compliment. It means that you are the top dps in the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RendValor Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Or not. Any Shadow/Assassin needing some DPS gear is bad, unless he's undergeared. A.- Shadows/Assassins aren't the only tanks and B.- it's not a matter of "needing" DPS gear, it's a matter of optimizing stats in situations where extra endurance will do you no good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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