Or you can just stick to PvE, where you can actually kill stuff and feel good about yourself.

^

What they said. Seriously, if I see one more post about how 4-man's should go play 8-man content, I'm going to start calling my congressmen and demand that schools start teaching arithmetic again! Republicans, the budget cuts have gone too far!

where did you read I do premades on regular warzones.

 

solo que for life, that's the price I pay for having 2 jobs, life and being in pve, social friendly guild

This assumption gets me every time-if you support matchmaking you do premades.

The truth is-if you support matchmaking you want a long term fix that will benefit everyone.

why should i care that the people i am playing against suck?

because it's boring if they do and fun and challenging if they don't?

I say it's irrelevant because (besides it is!) SWtor doesn't have Blizzard numbers or system. Blizzard has multiple cross-server tools/systems, larger numbers, puppies, pandas, etc... that Swtor does not.

 

Furthermore, I don't think Blizzard is wrong in taking action against very specific toxic players. I think they took the wrong action. My point about their arena criticism is simple... they can be wrong. I think they're wrong about this too. It would have been better to take decisive action against individuals of this anti-player mentality (ie, those who use the "So and So just rage quit!" add-on, etc..) rather than a blanket solution. The only thing Blizzard did there was save money on a one-shot mechanic change rather than policing their players. Only time will tell if their new found solution is God's gift to it's player-base, or another "mistake" they'll regret later.

 

Finally I pose this question; "If Blizzards so great... why are they bleeding subs too? They've lost 4mil subs in the last 2 years, and 1.3mil of that is with the last 5 months."

 

Forbes article, posted 5/9/13 Don't tell me Forbes isn't a reliable source.

MMOs in general are all more or less bleeding subs these days. I believe that's been the trend for some years now, sadly. I'm not sure whether I blame iphone apps or cheap games on Steam, but the attention span of the average gamer is getting shorter and shorter, with fewer people interested in dedicating to a game over the long haul. Blizzard is trying to adapt to that changing market, but BW is not (except by tacking on a torturous FTP model and the cash shop).

Obviously, talking pandas didn't help either.

And you're still missing the point. BW doesn't have the engine or the population to support Blizzard's solutions because BW has mishandled their game from the word go, both in general and specifically as relates to PvP. Blizzard does NOT make sweeping business decisions willy nilly... if they did, WoW would not have been the gold standard MMO and entry point for new MMO players for almost a decade now.

If their research and player base/business metrics say that the casuals don't want to play against premades, then you can pretty much guarantee that's true by a landslide.

Policing the pugstompers is a very naive suggestion, let's be honest. It's a deeply unsettling and unfortunate facet of human nature that most of us love to seek out unfair advantages whenever possible and don't give a whit about our anonymous fellow gamers, and a portion of us will always group into tribes to pick on other tribes. You can't police human nature person by person, that's like counting grains of sand on a beach. What's needed is a system that prevents that hardcore minority from indulging it in the first place.

^

 

What they said. Seriously, if I see one more post about how 4-man's should go play 8-man content, I'm going to start calling my congressmen and demand that schools start teaching arithmetic again! Republicans, the budget cuts have gone too far!

Premaders telling solo puggers to suck it up and get a group together ("if you can't beat 'em, join 'em") is no different than solo queuers telling Premaders to suck it up and get 4 more guys to do ranked.

I don't support either argument, for the record. But I believe that's the irony that people are trying to point out.

its whining.

 

wallbanging is an exploit whether its done by someone in a premade or someone that queued solo. yet you are complaining that somehow it is a major problem with premades? get real.

 

 

grouping is going to be discouraged in our game. said no MMO developer ever.

 

 

also, when presented with real solutions to the problem, you claim that we need a "interim" solution. aka, a solo only queue. no, we do not need a solo only queue.

 

we need skill based matchmaking. we need a RWZ system that is more accessible. RWZ needs matchmakning. and we are getting arenas, which will pull some of the 4-man groups out of regs (particularly those players from RWZ teams that arent able to form a full 8-man group).

 

and as has been said by me and many, many others, this is a problem directly related to the skill level of the average player. if each person tried to improve their own gameplay a little bit each day, this wouldnt be nearly as much of a problem.

yet i see players every day that somehow are incapable of even earning the 90k damage/healing medal? yeah, its definitely the premades fault that you lost

Joining a queue to do a WZ is grouping. Your method of grouping with people (before queueing up, and by coordinated effort) is not by default better or more appropriate than someone using the WZ grouping tool to group with other players at random.

Also,

"grouping is going to be discouraged in our game. said no MMO developer ever."

As many above have exhaustively point out over and over, at least two developers have gone on public record discouraging premades vs. pugs. One is an MMO developer you maaaay have heard of, called Blizzard.

No one is discouraging you from grouping, friend. They're trying to discourage you from grouping against people who have not. That isn't the same thing.

A solo player is not less entitled to have fun than you are. Please try to remember that.

I just get tired of all the dramatic QQ. It's not that bad. Really, it's not. New Ranked 4v4's will stimulate us hardcore pvpers and take us out of your regular warzone queue for a while. So you should be happy that you will be able to play against more casuals, and it will feel like you guys are getting "steamrolled" less.

 

But honestly, if you want BALANCED and FAIR PvP, then only way to go is Ranked Warzones. It doesn't get more fair and balanced than that. Reg Warzones will never be fair or balanced unless there is a match-making system, NOT a single-que system. That's the bottom line.

You say this, friend, but given BW's long track record of botched features and the pvp community's response to them, I'm not hopeful. It's far more likely that this 4v4 will end up as another train wreck experiment like RWZs where the few truly elite teams (or OP comps) will dominate and the lesser premades will skulk back to the regs to get their confidence back by squashing pug teams. It happened with preseason 1, I don't see why this will be any different.

You have to understand: people are not ************ about the truly competitive top-tier teams that only play rateds. They're ************ about the teams that use puggers as practice dummies or a good "LOL" for a few hours when they can't get a rated match going.

I'm also not a casual player. I love PvP and it's the only reason I'm in TOR, but I don't enjoy squash matches so I don't run premades. I prefer competition and the chaos of a pug WZ to endless stalemates or one-sided curbstompings.

You're also beating a strange dead horse. Obviously nothing will ever guarantee a perfectly balanced match. No one has suggested any solution will. But you will ALWAYS have a better shot at attaining something resembling a level playing field when the goods and bads are distributed equally rather than having most of the goods on one side before the match even starts.

Premaders telling solo puggers to suck it up and get a group together ("if you can't beat 'em, join 'em") is no different than solo queuers telling Premaders to suck it up and get 4 more guys to do ranked.

 

I don't support either argument, for the record. But I believe that's the irony that people are trying to point out.

I will respond to your longer post in time but first.

I beg to differ.

A grouped player has already done more than the Solo player. They found 3 other people to play with.

The Solo player is telling the grouped player they should find 7 people.

3 < 7.

Is the grouped player particularly right (especially if done in a rude manner)? No...

But there is a big difference between someone saying "do as I have done and succeed" vs. "Do more than I will so I don't have to deal with you."

MMOs in general are all more or less bleeding subs these days. I believe that's been the trend for some years now, sadly. I'm not sure whether I blame iphone apps or cheap games on Steam, but the attention span of the average gamer is getting shorter and shorter, with fewer people interested in dedicating to a game over the long haul. Blizzard is trying to adapt to that changing market, but BW is not (except by tacking on a torturous FTP model and the cash shop).

 

Obviously, talking pandas didn't help either.

 

And you're still missing the point. BW doesn't have the engine or the population to support Blizzard's solutions because BW has mishandled their game from the word go, both in general and specifically as relates to PvP. Blizzard does NOT make sweeping business decisions willy nilly... if they did, WoW would not have been the gold standard MMO and entry point for new MMO players for almost a decade now.

 

If their research and player base/business metrics say that the casuals don't want to play against premades, then you can pretty much guarantee that's true by a landslide.

 

Policing the pugstompers is a very naive suggestion, let's be honest. It's a deeply unsettling and unfortunate facet of human nature that most of us love to seek out unfair advantages whenever possible and don't give a whit about our anonymous fellow gamers, and a portion of us will always group into tribes to pick on other tribes. You can't police human nature person by person, that's like counting grains of sand on a beach. What's needed is a system that prevents that hardcore minority from indulging it in the first place.

I'm saying: We don't know what works any more. Neither does Blizzard. You can say "oh, they wouldn't do something without being sure!" all you like but until we see the minutes from their Dev meeting and their statistics... O.o we don't know! So using them as the "industry leader did it!" can only be done if you ignore that their losing their customers (at an alarming rate).

As for Policing people and Systems preventing etc...

<.< Sounds to me like a matchmaking system would do that.

494 pages and you people still don't understand why this is never going to happen

Because people want their lopsided matches.

Don't worry, I understand perfectly fine.

This suggestion is a touch naive. Except for two servers, the others don't and will likely never have the thriving pvp community necessary for your matchmaking solution to work regularly as the pool being drawn from just isn't large enough. Cross server is the only way that could ever work, and BW has repeatedly inferred that their cruddy, cobbled engine can't support it.

 

So in the end, by suggesting "matchmaking for even teams first, hopeless premade v pug mismatch if that fails," what you're really suggesting is a retention of the status quo on most servers because the latter will occur more often than the former.

 

If solo puggers had their own dedicated queue, the casuals that dominate the populations of MMO pvp would have a safe place to play where they can just catass around and have mindless fun (which is the direction gaming is going in the modern world anyway). Instead this vast majority of players get alienated and leave, and we (the hardcore pvpers) lose the money they would have brought to the game. Queue times dry up, everyone loses.

 

The only ones losing if they separate the queues are premades, who are a very small minority in mmo pvp. I'm comfortable with that. So are industry leaders like Blizzard, who realize that alienating the bulk of your pvp base to satisfy the desires of the few hurts your bottom line.

 

What's the solution?

 

Not really sure there is one that will work. I'm all for solo-only queue toggle, because it would minimize the problem. Even if premades try to 'beat the system' by queuing up at the same time, they'll still end up divided between teams in same-faction matches so that's already an improvement. But the potential for cheating the system remains.

 

The only real lasting solution is cross server matchmaking, which is really what everyone should be clamoring for from the mountaintops. BW says they don't care to do it or simply can't handle it, but that's really where the answer is.

You have my 110% support on this entire post. As far as I'm concerned, this is /thread level type post.

Matchmaking only works with cross-server queues and even then you need a solo queue toggle option.

The End.

its funny that the pro-solo queue people think they are in the majority.

It's funny that premades say they don't want lopsided matches.

Yet...matchmaking on low pop servers. Lulz.

Debunked.

I will respond to your longer post in time but first.

 

 

I beg to differ.

 

A grouped player has already done more than the Solo player. They found 3 other people to play with.

The Solo player is telling the grouped player they should find 7 people.

 

3 < 7.

 

Is the grouped player particularly right (especially if done in a rude manner)? No...

 

But there is a big difference between someone saying "do as I have done and succeed" vs. "Do more than I will so I don't have to deal with you."

Not the same thing.

Premades are CHOOSING to pre-group for an advantage or to "play with friends." Either way, it is something they are choosing to do for their own enjoyment and satisfaction. Very few are doing it because they feel they must in order to be competitive. Most would do it regardless of whether they're facing mostly PUGs or other premades on a given night. It's not work for them; it's fun.

Solo puggers choose to solo queue for their own enjoyment. Asking them to "work harder" to be on the same level as you is essentially saying that you're entitled to enjoy the game the way you want to (pre-grouping) but they are not entitled to enjoy the game the way they want (playing solo).

For someone who enjoys running premades, forming a group is not work. It's done naturally, and often enhances the participants' fun. For someone who hates running premades it's just flat work.

If premades are telling soloers that they have to work before they can be allowed to have fun, then soloers are well within their rights to demand the same of you---work harder, and go do rateds to be competitive with the other teams there.

I point out again that both of these arguments are highly flawed. Neither has a place in this argument because everyone is entitled to have fun PvPing the way they want to.

here ill post this again

Here I'll post this again.

3 premades 4 solo pugs. All the same skill get put in the match due to "the wonderful world of matchmaking". They are the only ones in queue at the skill level so the 4 solo pugs always face a double premade with a great comp.

Glad you support lopsided matches.

You have been debunked.

On a related note to the Blizzard discussion...

This: Blizzard Takes a Stand Against...

and the source: Dev Post

are dated December 5th and 4th, 2012 accordingly.

This: Blizzard lost 1.3 subscribers in the last 3 months

is dated May 5th, 2013 and references the report for the first quarter (which if I'm not mistaken is the quarter that starts around/shortly after New Year).

It reads that WoW has lost 4 mill subscribers over the past 2 years, and 1.3 mil in the last 3 months (that's 25% of their lost subs in a 3 month span).

Now I know this is making a little inference but... What "big" change was made 3-4 months prior to that sudden mass exodus?

I'm saying: We don't know what works any more. Neither does Blizzard. You can say "oh, they wouldn't do something without being sure!" all you like but until we see the minutes from their Dev meeting and their statistics... O.o we don't know! So using them as the "industry leader did it!" can only be done if you ignore that their losing their customers (at an alarming rate).

 

As for Policing people and Systems preventing etc...

 

<.< Sounds to me like a matchmaking system would do that.

We have no idea who's leaving or why. It might be the PvEers who are tired of EZmode content. It might be people who've finally gotten bored with a near ten year old game. It might be PvPers tired of the same battlegrounds. On that point, you're correct that we have no data. I'm not certain if Blizzard has come out and commented on this, but again---for my money, it's probably the same reason as most other MMOs: attention span, boredom with the format, and changes in demographics.

What we DO have information about is why Blizzard chose to separate their pvp populations and not allow solo puggers to play against premades. That part is not mysterious at all, as they've been very transparent about it. Other MMOs are also beginning to follow suit (I believe Rift separates premades from pugs, but correct me if I'm thinking of another game).

It's really simple guys. If casuals in THAT game vocally hate being farmed by coordinated teams, why in the world would you think casuals in THIS game would be cool with it?

I just get tired of all the dramatic QQ. It's not that bad. Really, it's not. New Ranked 4v4's will stimulate us hardcore pvpers and take us out of your regular warzone queue for a while. So you should be happy that you will be able to play against more casuals, and it will feel like you guys are getting "steamrolled" less.

 

But honestly, if you want BALANCED and FAIR PvP, then only way to go is Ranked Warzones. It doesn't get more fair and balanced than that. Reg Warzones will never be fair or balanced unless there is a match-making system, NOT a single-que system. That's the bottom line.

Bottom line is once one team in 4vs4 arena's starts steam rolling every other team. 4vs4 won't happen, just like how ranked is only an option on two servers now.

History supports me, how about you? Oh wait, baseless assumptions and hyperbole is all you have to offer.

You have been debunked.

I'm saying: We don't know what works any more. Neither does Blizzard. You can say "oh, they wouldn't do something without being sure!" all you like but until we see the minutes from their Dev meeting and their statistics... O.o we don't know! So using them as the "industry leader did it!" can only be done if you ignore that their losing their customers (at an alarming rate).

 

As for Policing people and Systems preventing etc...

 

<.< Sounds to me like a matchmaking system would do that.

A matchmaking system would only accomplish what you suggest if there were a population pool big enough to discriminate. On all but probably 2 servers, there is not. So again, what you are suggesting is a retention of the status quo; a solution that will change nothing and still favor the pugstompers.

On a related note to the Blizzard discussion...

 

This: Blizzard Takes a Stand Against...

 

and the source: Dev Post

 

are dated December 5th and 4th, 2012 accordingly.

 

This: Blizzard lost 1.3 subscribers in the last 3 months

 

is dated May 5th, 2013 and references the report for the first quarter (which if I'm not mistaken is the quarter that starts around/shortly after New Year).

 

It reads that WoW has lost 4 mill subscribers over the past 2 years, and 1.3 mil in the last 3 months (that's 25% of their lost subs in a 3 month span).

 

Now I know this is making a little inference but... What "big" change was made 3-4 months prior to that sudden mass exodus?

Come on; this is silly and you're reaching. The only thing that is immediately, obviously accurate in your post is that you're making an inference. And it's not a little one, it's a huge one.

Not the same thing.

 

Premades are CHOOSING to pre-group for...

 

I point out again that both of these arguments are highly flawed. Neither has a place in this argument because everyone is entitled to have fun PvPing the way they want to.

Again disagree once more.

The group player is telling the PuG to group to win (or have fun, though fun is subjective.) The group player is quite happy and has already made the effort to do "something" beyond hitting the queue button to win.

The PuG is the unhappy one. He tells the group player "Go do more effort than you already have, to play somewhere else so I can have my win/fun."

Very different statements. A is telling B to work harder to have their (B's) own win/fun/whatever while the other is B telling A to work harder so they (B) can have their (B's) win/fun/whatever.

We do agree (and this is a place I've particularly grown myself) that neither really solves anything.

On a related note to the Blizzard discussion...

 

This: Blizzard Takes a Stand Against...

 

and the source: Dev Post

 

are dated December 5th and 4th, 2012 accordingly.

 

This: Blizzard lost 1.3 subscribers in the last 3 months

 

is dated May 5th, 2013 and references the report for the first quarter (which if I'm not mistaken is the quarter that starts around/shortly after New Year).

 

It reads that WoW has lost 4 mill subscribers over the past 2 years, and 1.3 mil in the last 3 months (that's 25% of their lost subs in a 3 month span).

 

Now I know this is making a little inference but... What "big" change was made 3-4 months prior to that sudden mass exodus?

youre right ! since there still isnt a queue only for pugs in wow, those pugs must have ragequit.

I point out again that both of these arguments are highly flawed. Neither has a place in this argument because everyone is entitled to have fun PvPing the way they want to.

I agree with quite a bit of what you've said, but this statement is false and being proven by many people in this thread. No one is entitled to have fun PvPing the way they want to. By your own definition, those who enjoy solo queuing should have to face premades (their preferred way to play).

Ultimately, people have fun when they feel like they can win. We all agree that the randomness right now is not enjoyable, but the finger is pointed at those who choose to make the matches less random as the problem. It's a solution to the problem of people being less skilled than others that is presented in the current system. If I'm good and I keep getting put on teams with players far below my skill level, then I will do what I can to get better players on my team. If your preferred way to have fun is to not group, then you can't really complain that your random teammates aren't good enough to beat the other team.

I'd love to have a queue for every desire in the game, but the simple fact is that this is not WoW. If we lost 1.5 million subs in 5 months, SWTOR would have -1 million subs. Since solo queue is not an option that resolves the random aspect of warzones, you would still have good teams facing bad teams in both queues. It solves a very small part of the overall root issue. Which is why the majority of us are against using it to band-aid the issue.

Again disagree once more.

 

The group player is telling the PuG to group to win (or have fun, though fun is subjective.) The group player is quite happy and has already made the effort to do "something" beyond hitting the queue button to win.

 

The PuG is the unhappy one. He tells the group player "Go do more effort than you already have, to play somewhere else so I can have my win/fun."

 

Very different statements. A is telling B to work harder to have their (B's) own win/fun/whatever while the other is B telling A to work harder so they (B) can have their (B's) win/fun/whatever.

 

We do agree (and this is a place I've particularly grown myself) that neither really solves anything.

The amount of bias reeks so bad with this post. It's almost hilarious.

I do feel kinda sad though for how far he has to reach to try to justify wanted lopsided matches.

Come on; this is silly and you're reaching. The only thing that is immediately, obviously accurate in your post is that you're making an inference. And it's not a little one, it's a huge one.

Is it really?

I'll admit, it's one of those things we don't know without data we don't have (sounds familiar), but it certainly seems fishy!

Can you name any other big change that came out that recently? Something changed, if we were going by previous data 3 months should have only been a loss of 385k, ( 3months * ((4mil-1.3mil) / (24 months-3months)) ), not a whooping 1.3 mil!

So...

Something changed in the last 3-4 months, that change must have been bad as we saw nearly 4 times the population decay. I got it, it was Terrorists!

Point is, if you can point to Blizzard and say "They do smart stuff" I can point to it and say "Someone ****ed up."

youre right ! since there still isnt a queue only for pugs in wow, those pugs must have ragequit.

Or... <.< the projected change is already having an effect. Let's face it, Dev comes in bad-mouthing a percentage of their player base, tells people they've got this change planned (that is inferior to other options and fails to address the root problem), it hits the internetz.

doesn't take a genius to think somethings fishy.