The main thing Lethality needs to be a good raid DPSer is a way to generate TAs at range. For this, I've previously suggested altering the Counterstrike talent (Lethality 5) to also give a point of TA 50/100% of the time when you use Countermeasures. That gives you a 45s-cooldown ability to instantly generate a TA regardless of range (and it even works out of combat) once you're level 30+; besides just being good that way, it's tied to an ability that you'll be using constantly in raids anyway, and it'd make Countermeasures useful in PvP as well. I'd also suggested changing the Vanish talent (Lethality 4) to reduce the cooldown of Countermeasures by 7.5/15s like it does the other clickies, which'd reduce it to a 30s cooldown. One free TA per 30s won't completely remove the TA problem, but it'd go a LONG way towards making the Lethality spec viable when combined with other TA generators.

I disagree with your opening statement there. Even if we would transform in a "10 meter range class", it wouls still be beneficial for us to use blaster whip and backblast because of the raw damage input. Of course, your suggestion would help. But it won't solve the TA starvation issue of lethality.

How can lethality benefit from TA ?

-: with a +10 energy bonus every 20 seconds with pugnacity.

-: with its hardest hitting attack

How can lethality generate TA ?

-: opener from stealth (between 0 and 3 per combat)

-: blaster whip every 5-6 seconds depending if you want to waste 0,5 seconds doing nothing for the gcd to come out.

Currently, it's a waste of TA to use pugnacity every 20 seconds because 10 energy is weak compared to the rarity of TA and the power of wounding shot. We don't have enough TA to refresh it every 20 seconds and we should.

YOur idea of Countermeasure giving TA is nice, but it would have to be on a 20 sec cd. 30 is still too much.

Another popular solutions is to have TA proc from vital shot as on SRMP.

Hell ! We wouldn't even need an internal cd on TA proc, as our only way to spend a TA is by using wounding shot, which cost a lot of energy.

Only problem is they said legacy unlocks will not affect anything but situations with ur companions. Additionally unlocked abilities will be on heavy cooldowns.

Not true. The devs have specifically said the Class Buff is always a part of you, so you can give it to your Ops group. Everything else requires the 20min cooldown.

Only 2 dps can perform spot healing to help healers on tight moment, one of them can combat rez. That one is aslo the only class able to use out of combat rez in combat, (after disapearing act)

DPS is a bit lower, but they have a use.

People writing in this thread are just wrong.

Operative dps is very competitive as long as you specc lethality.

Concealment is pretty weak in operations though, due to positional and melee range requirement and therefor loss of dps-time.

I know cause I play one in operations, and my dps is top notch. In addition I bring a combat ress and can help out with healing if needed.

Guess a lot of you will argue that there's no dps-meters in the game so I couldn't know and that I'm carried by the other dps-ers and not pulling my own weight.

Being able to tell if you pull out a lot of dps aint that hard.

I'm fully capable of killing my own juggernaut in no time when doing infernal council on nightmare difficulty, and I'm often finished first of the dpsers.

If the tank dies or is mind trapped, carbonited or somhow looses aggro I usually find myself having aggro (due to high dps), and Im not talking about the start of the fight.

I suspect you guys never did any operations with an lethality operative, if you did any ops at all, cause what you suggest simply ain't true. Dps operatives performs great in ops.

Only 2 dps can perform spot healing to help healers on tight moment, one of them can combat rez. That one is aslo the only class able to use out of combat rez in combat, (after disapearing act)

 

DPS is a bit lower, but they have a use.

Commandos and Mercs now have a combat rez.

I'm gonna laugh if operatives somehow come out as one of the best dps classes when damage meters are put in. Seriously, just play the class you enjoy. If you aren't in a hardcore progression raiding guild that is going for world firsts, then it shouldn't even be a concern.

I've already (and you should aswell ) dismiss the forums as total ********.

However an immobile fight allows for better damage as Lethality.

On Infernal Council NiM and HM i'm faster then our Merc dps in killing my target. Ending either first or second. (we do alot of races and bets in my guild).

However, my rotation is more prone to messing up wich can reduce my damage.

My overall damage is also affected by my lack of mobility. But we are nowhere near the lowest damage.

Don't listen to the vocal minority on the forums whining, they will do so regardless of the state of their class.

People writing in this thread are just wrong.

Operative dps is very competitive as long as you specc lethality.

Concealment is pretty weak in operations though, due to positional and melee range requirement and therefor loss of dps-time.

 

I know cause I play one in operations, and my dps is top notch. In addition I bring a combat ress and can help out with healing if needed.

Guess a lot of you will argue that there's no dps-meters in the game so I couldn't know and that I'm carried by the other dps-ers and not pulling my own weight.

 

Being able to tell if you pull out a lot of dps aint that hard.

I'm fully capable of killing my own juggernaut in no time when doing infernal council on nightmare difficulty, and I'm often finished first of the dpsers.

If the tank dies or is mind trapped, carbonited or somhow looses aggro I usually find myself having aggro (due to high dps), and Im not talking about the start of the fight.

 

I suspect you guys never did any operations with an lethality operative, if you did any ops at all, cause what you suggest simply ain't true. Dps operatives performs great in ops.

Besides battle/stealth res, nothing.

Don'tlisten to most people whom say OPs dont compare.

Strictly speaking as concealment operative, DPS is comparable if not higher than other classes when done right. The class is a MUCH harder class to master though. This is not a "l2p more dps" post, class really is more diffucult to mnage.

To maximize DPS many things have to be taken into account.

-Best in slot gear. Concealment you want approx over 700 tech dmg, 110% accuracy, 35%+ in crit etc. etc. I would reccomend reading the Operative DPS compendium on sithwarrior forums. Great read.

-Unlike a WoW rouge for example, you CANNOT spam abilities without worrying about energy. The dynamics are too different. You must keep 1TA up during sustained DPS fight, 40%-70% energy at all times, acid blad every BS, Poison Dart up at all times. Weaving in Blaster shot (your free attack is a must) to keep energy levels optimal. Running out of energy is a huge dps killer....

-Stim boost at all times, furst thing you should pop with your first TA...

-Postitioning is huge, as allways with Melee dps, you MUST be aware of surroundings and the overall mechanics of the fight better than a ranged dps for example.

-Get an edge and go Biochem/Analysis, get Rakata stim, Attack Adrenal.

-Relic, ensure you get a relic with +dmg, the champ pvp one for example is +300

-use relic adrenal often, burn CD's when you know you wont need them

Most other classes just spam acouple abilities and stand in one spot. FAR more attention is required to maintain sustained dps with an operative, it is a very unforgiving class.

This is strickly PvE tactics.

And what does Op Lethality offer that other DPS don't have? What does Op Lethality have that Sniper Lethality doesn't?

 

Besides battle/stealth res, nothing.

U have cleanse, can heal if needed.

Leth operative have have better burst and better energy regen, better cc (not very usefull on bosses)

An leth-operative can pull of 3 culls in 6 seconds, while sniper cull has 9s cd.

Sure it consumes lots of energy but its usefull when dps time is very limited (soa phase3)

Operative real problem is not the damage. They parse just fine. On any fight that is melee unfriendly, or needs lots of movement their damage drops like a rock.

If you compare this to the other melee DPS spots that you need to fight over.

Guardian = comparable damage, leap allows instant gap closing after stuff like gjar pounce. Can function as offtank for jarg/sono and fabricator

Vanguard pyro = comparable damage, effective 10 meter range. 1100 dps from 30 meters where needed. Same offtank capabilities as vanguard.

Sentinel = lol

Shadow = comparable damage, immunity every 45 second allows ignoring boss mechanics like soa balls, gjar pounces etc. Sprint every 20 seconds for gap closing.

There is really no point comparing melee and ranged.

In the end, the current content is easy enough that almost every raidgroup will be able to clear it, even at nightmare. We only have one ranged dps and did fine.

For 1.2, there is really no knowledge of how this goes.

Don'tlisten to most people whom say OPs dont compare.

 

Strictly speaking as concealment operative, DPS is comparable if not higher than other classes when done right. The class is a MUCH harder class to master though. This is not a "l2p more dps" post, class really is more diffucult to mnage.

 

To maximize DPS many things have to be taken into account.

-Best in slot gear. Concealment you want approx over 700 tech dmg, 110% accuracy, 35%+ in crit etc. etc. I would reccomend reading the Operative DPS compendium on sithwarrior forums. Great read.

-Unlike a WoW rouge for example, you CANNOT spam abilities without worrying about energy. The dynamics are too different. You must keep 1TA up during sustained DPS fight, 40%-70% energy at all times, acid blad every BS, Poison Dart up at all times. Weaving in Blaster shot (your free attack is a must) to keep energy levels optimal. Running out of energy is a huge dps killer....

-Stim boost at all times, furst thing you should pop with your first TA...

-Postitioning is huge, as allways with Melee dps, you MUST be aware of surroundings and the overall mechanics of the fight better than a ranged dps for example.

-Get an edge and go Biochem/Analysis, get Rakata stim, Attack Adrenal.

-Relic, ensure you get a relic with +dmg, the champ pvp one for example is +300

-use relic adrenal often, burn CD's when you know you wont need them

 

Most other classes just spam acouple abilities and stand in one spot. FAR more attention is required to maintain sustained dps with an operative, it is a very unforgiving class.

 

 

This is strickly PvE tactics.

No it's not. You're making ***** up.

An operative in full buffs and adrenals does less damage than a marauder with no buffs.

(didnt read other replies to this:p)

First hand experiences with both snipers and operatives reaching dps records of 1700 and up, both going down the lethality tree.

Just throwing this out there.

Concealment operative runs in HM EC with me sometimes, and puts out 1200-1400 deeps in Rakata/black hole that's somewhat optimized but not fully.

They can definitely hold their own if played right. Too many people are "classist" and the second they see a operative dps, they throw them out the window.

Feel bad for the little guys!

I don't have any logs (as the damn op never uploaded his) but anecdotally I can say I have seen an operative sustain 1700+ through all of EC HM.

And I can personally attest to 1400+ on the ops dummy with unoptimized/unaugmented rakata/BH gear.

Are they the best dps in the game? No.

Are they hard to play? Yes. I have one and it's such a pain in the *** to play correctly that I just spec'd mine heals and I dps on other things. (Bioware if you care, you need to loosen up the operative rotations. Energy is way too tight and mistakes destroy your optimal energy usage).

Are they competitive when the vigilant play them correctly? Yes.

If you want to half-*** it and only kinda try-- don't bother. This class requires near perfection all the time.

I don't have any logs (as the damn op never uploaded his) but anecdotally I can say I have seen an operative sustain 1700+ through all of EC HM.

 

And I can personally attest to 1400+ on the ops dummy with unoptimized/unaugmented rakata/BH gear.

 

Are they the best dps in the game? No.

 

Are they hard to play? Yes. I have one and it's such a pain in the *** to play correctly that I just spec'd mine heals and I dps on other things. (Bioware if you care, you need to loosen up the operative rotations. Energy is way too tight and mistakes destroy your optimal energy usage).

 

Are they competitive when the vigilant play them correctly? Yes.

 

If you want to half-*** it and only kinda try-- don't bother. This class requires near perfection all the time.

Yeah, I agree with this post. Emphasis on the "hard to play" effectively.

damage-per-damage, they are certainly comparable. No one really knows with meters, but they can bore out damage when they are skillfully played and equipped. But, it's hard.

They don't have the general tools, aggro dumps, closers, sustainability that other melees have. They can make it work, but it's hard.

No it's not. You're making ***** up.

 

An operative in full buffs and adrenals does less damage than a marauder with no buffs.

^ Coming from a mara that would do roughly 1k dps, like all the other crappy ones out there.

Like I always say, play the class you will play most effectively. If you want to micro-manage then go for it, but if you want to be lazy then don't bother.

^ Coming from a mara that would do roughly 1k dps, like all the other crappy ones out there.

 

Like I always say, play the class you will play most effectively. If you want to micro-manage then go for it, but if you want to be lazy then don't bother.

^^ QFT. If we have exact numbers, and a sold enough number to know, we could "rank" classes. realistically, all the classes do enough damage to run any Op in the game atm. some have the potential to do more....but this is a shaky spot. not everyone can put out that potential.

Now, there are classes that simply put are easier to put out DPS with. the two that I've leveled that are simply easier (compared to my Operative and Juggernaut) are my maurader and my Merc. now, i rarely notice a huge DPS increase between my merc and my Jugg (except that my Merc doesn't have to hope around as much...and this does impact things), but my mara is far easier to get eh same level of DPS out of. to get the top DPS? it's probably a bit more challenging, but the curve for both my mara and my Merc is far less drastic then my jugg and Operative (the Op being the most challenging of the 4).

Now, that given, I've seen enough parses to believe personally that mara/sent, and the Sinper/gunslinger are top DPS when optimized, period. not by enough that other classes can't run an OP, but they are simply ahead (when played well.....again, this is very important). However, the only people that are really going to care are:

1)the ignorant

2)those who are struggling to get their fledgling guild through a progression Op (and are having to deal with inexperience and poor gear), and

3)progression guilds that don't care one whit about who they bring...they just want top numbers.

category one simply needs to get a grip. category two needs to understand that making their players better at what they do will net them better results in the long run then just bringing along EZ mode DPS to apply a band-aid to a gaping wound SKILL > CLASS. the last category needs to realize....they're in the wrong game. TOR isn't a hardnosed progression game. doesn't mean that you cant have fun, or that there isn't some challenges for average players. but it's like comparing non rated BG's to arena (for those who understand WoW). two different beasts.

One thing to consider when comparing DPS in Operations is that you can rarely compare one operation group to another. It's more realistic to compare within the group. This is because tactics and kill time is not identical. I've seen major dps deviation within my own operations depending on how fast and how well the encounter was executed. Dps can differ in the 100s.

Comparing the DPS in my guild 16m progression group we seem to have 3 brackets on the dps meters, if you follow me ^^

1. Min/Maxed and experienced players.. 1300-1700+ dps depending on encounter.

Snipers, Mercs, Sorcs, Marauders, Juggs are all very close to each other. Ranged have a slight edge, but not always.

2. Experienced but not fully geared. Typically 100-300dps below first bracket.

3. Recruits. Another 100-200 dps below 2nd bracket.

What I see is that experience is the most important factor. Knowing the encounters, how to move and maximizing DPS all at the same time, well, takes time to become second nature. A dead DPS is a bad DPS

Not sure for PvE, but PvP if you can manage to stay in the mix we are usefull

see link below

http://i50.tinypic.com/bi5ois.jpg