I do agree with the 'state of the game' point. Casualizing a game seems to be very popular now with MMOs. Content seems to be based around dailies and "free" loot to keep the player interested. We all can agree that receiving a new shiny piece of gear keeps us further wanting to enjoy the game as well as push to get more of that shiny loot.

 

WoW is an example, though maybe not the best. However, that is all I really have at this point as it is the most successful. Bosses lasted a REALLY long time before they started removing forms of gating that only allowed the creme of the crop to pass through. Here is a list of bosses that WoW had that went more than 2 days without being killed... much more than 2 days...

 

#1 Ouro - 87 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 26th April 2006.

#2 C'thun - 86 days from the Twin Emperors' death. 25th April 2006.

#3 tied Chromaggus - 74 days from Ebonroc's death. 25th September 2005.

#3 tied Ragnaros - 74 days from Majordomo Executus' death. 25th April 2005.

#5 Yogg-Saron, Alone in the Darkness - 70 days from One Light in the Darkness. 7th July 2009

#6 High Astromancer Solarian - 59 days from Magtheridon's death. 24th April 2007

#7 The Four Horsemen - 56 days from Gothik's death to D&T's kill. August 25th 2006

#8 Al'ar <Phoenix God> - 48 days from Magtheridon's death. 13th April 2007

#9 The Lich King (Heroic 25) - 42 Days from Heroic Putricide's death (first pull). March 26th 2010

#10 Heroic Al'Akir - 36 days from Heroic Conclave of Wind's death. January 22nd 2011.

#11 Kael'thas Sunstrider <Lord of the Blood Elves> - 31 days from Solarian's death. 25th May 2007

#12 Magtheridon - 29 days from the first 70 raid kills. 24th February 2007

#13 Lady Vashj <Coilfang Matron> - 17 days from being unlocked. 29th March 2007

#14 Leotheras the Blind - 16 days from Hydross' death. 4th March 2007

#15 Loatheb - 14 days from Heigan's death. 17th July 2006

#16 tied Heigan the Unclean - 13 days from Noth the Plaguebringer's death. 3rd July 2006

#16 tied Hydross the Unstable <Duke of Currents> - 13 days from Gruul's death. 16th February 2007

#16 tied Heroic Cho'gall - 13 days from Heroic Ascendant Council's death. 15th January 2011.

#16 tied Heroic Nefarian - 13 days from Heroic Atramedes' death. January 9th 2011.

#20 tied Archimonde <The Defiler> - 10 days from Azgalor's death. 9th June 2007

#20 tied Gothik the Harvester - 10 days from Instructor Razuvious' death. 30th June 2006

#22 tied Mimiron Firefighter 25 - 8 days from Ensidia's KnockKnockKnock kill to Firefighter kill. May 1st 2009

#22 tied Sapphiron - 8 days from Four Horsemen dying. 2nd September 2006

#22 tied Gruul the Dragonkiller - 8 days from Maulgar's death. 3rd February 2007

#25 Reliquary of Lost Souls - 6 days from Gurtogg's death. 2nd June 2007

#26 tied Kel'Thuzad - 5 days from Sapphiron's death. 7th September 2006

#26 tied Kil'jaeden <The Deceiver> - 5 days from the opening of the third Sunwell gate. 25th May 2008

#26 tied Sinestra - 5 days from Heroic Cho'gall's death. January 20th 2011.

#29 tied Heroic Anub'arak 25 - 4 days from Heroic Twin Val'kyr's death. September 6th 2009.

#29 tied M'uru. 4 days from the opening of the second Sunwell gate. 4th May 2008

 

 

Most of these bosses are counted AFTER the previous boss is killed... and the kill is a WORLD FIRST. With a range of *months*, bosses lasted a very very long time. From my history of raiding, I can state that the top guilds were putting in hours on par with full time jobs trying to down these bosses. Not once did they outright ask Blizzard to just nerf it (maybe Kil'jaedan was an exception). Sure, there were some minor nerfs to certain bosses (Sunwell had a few), but those weren't nerfs that trivialized an encounter.

 

This isn't in any way, shape or form a thread trying to lock out casuals from raiding. Casuals represent the majority. They deserve to see content too... but that is what Story Mode and Hard Mode are for. Leave Nightmare to the <1%. Leave Nightmare for the guilds that WANT to be challenged. That WANT to spend days upon days working towards a kill. It makes the achievement that much more satisfying. Skipping hard bosses and then getting free loot isn't rewarding. Its like wanting a special new mount, but not having enough money for it... so you buy the gold and purchase it. How is that an accomplishment?

 

Raiding in any game is stale. Though, recently in WoW- Throne of Thunder was quite impressive compared to previous raids released. With 13 bosses being difficult (Ra-den not so much I guess), it was relieving to see that they are now giving content for the 1%. Having cleared most of Heroic before quitting, I can say that a challenge is what the raiding community needs. And by challenge, I mean a boss that isn't ridiculously hard because its bugged out or damage is just scaled due to laziness.

 

We want a real raid that you can tell the developers poured their soul into. Not a raid instance that has a combined total of 14 mechanics throughout the entire experience.

i honestly can't do a better job then video to show the state of raiding and what I miss.

 

 

No boss any game I have played yet felt better to have killed then Ouro,and C'thun. AQ 40 and Naxx 40 regardless to the few that saw them still the best raids

i honestly can't do a better job then video to show the state of raiding and what I miss.

 

 

No boss any game I have played yet felt better to have killed then Ouro,and C'thun. AQ 40 and Naxx 40 regardless to the few that saw them still the best raids

 

heh yup. I like preacher's other vids on the state of mmo gaming. Thats why Im hoping Wildstar lives up to their promises of catering to the hardcore with intense 40m raiding. Too many games focus on the casuals and giving away all the purples. Carl remember when it used to be something amazing to have even 1 epic piece of loot? Now everyone has access to epics it diminishes them for everyone.

heh yup. I like preacher's other vids on the state of mmo gaming. Thats why Im hoping Wildstar lives up to their promises of catering to the hardcore with intense 40m raiding. Too many games focus on the casuals and giving away all the purples. Carl remember when it used to be something amazing to have even 1 epic piece of loot? Now everyone has access to epics it diminishes them for everyone.

 

Just quoting:

 

It was *never* amazing just to have a single piece of epic loot. Maybe when everyone was first rushing to level 60 in WoW, but a single epic was never something that people would literally trip over themselves for. Granted 40man MC didn't drop nearly enough loot per boss, people were still being geared to the teeth. At the time, only about .2% of the playerbase was accessing content which is why epics seemed even more epic. When we were working on BWL and I was in T1, people would literally freak out over it if I joined someones group to carry through UBRS. However, in my guild most of everyone was T1/T2 so it wasn't all that special. Now, maybe having a set of tier was something considered amazing, but never was just a single epic that big of a deal. You could get two epics from just AV reputation alone, and due to the 8 hour long fights (minimum), getting exalted with AV was cake.

 

I do agree that the gear needs more of an 'epic' feeling. Right now in any MMO, getting a purple item is just part of the process and never something you generally have to work for.

 

Also on topic with Wildstar, from my buddies who were lucky enough to mess around with it- their consensus was that it was more casual than WoW. Of course raiding hasn't been really talked about in that game, but we're used to developers giving us false promises. Remember when Bioware said that Nightmare is going to be "a true nightmare"? So far, Wildstar has just shown that everything is trivialized to appeal to the masses- but we haven't seen all of it so I guess there is still hope for something to cater to the hard core crowd. Lets just hope the playerbase isn't absolutely horrible, so fielding a 40man with a full roster of *actually* skilled players doesn't become the raidwall. I know SWTOR just does not have a great playerbase, so recruitment is very difficult. Getting 8 of the best for 8man is one thing, but trying to find 16 people with great skill is so difficult since most of the good players are taken- and those guildless are guildless for a reason.

Edited August 2, 2013 by Aerro

Just quoting:

 

It was *never* amazing just to have a single piece of epic loot. Maybe when everyone was first rushing to level 60 in WoW, but a single epic was never something that people would literally trip over themselves for. Granted 40man MC didn't drop nearly enough loot per boss, people were still being geared to the teeth. At the time, only about .2% of the playerbase was accessing content which is why epics seemed even more epic. When we were working on BWL and I was in T1, people would literally freak out over it if I joined someones group to carry through UBRS. However, in my guild most of everyone was T1/T2 so it wasn't all that special. Now, maybe having a set of tier was something considered amazing, but never was just a single epic that big of a deal. You could get two epics from just AV reputation alone, and due to the 8 hour long fights (minimum), getting exalted with AV was cake.

 

I do agree that the gear needs more of an 'epic' feeling. Right now in any MMO, getting a purple item is just part of the process and never something you generally have to work for.

 

Also on topic with Wildstar, from my buddies who were lucky enough to mess around with it- their consensus was that it was more casual than WoW. Of course raiding hasn't been really talked about in that game, but we're used to developers giving us false promises. Remember when Bioware said that Nightmare is going to be "a true nightmare"? So far, Wildstar has just shown that everything is trivialized to appeal to the masses- but we haven't seen all of it so I guess there is still hope for something to cater to the hard core crowd. Lets just hope the playerbase isn't absolutely horrible, so fielding a 40man with a full roster of *actually* skilled players doesn't become the raidwall. I know SWTOR just does not have a great playerbase, so recruitment is very difficult. Getting 8 of the best for 8man is one thing, but trying to find 16 people with great skill is so difficult since most of the good players are taken- and those guildless are guildless for a reason.

 

Someone didnt push endgame content firsts in WOW that much is obvious:P I still remember when I got my first epic in WOW and someone noticed me wearing it in town. suddenly there was a flock around me saying grats or how did I earn that etc. Sounds like you didn't hit endgame until everyone and their brother was farming it:P Not surprised though considering what your most recent WOW guild has been saying about you:P Looks like thats 2 games where your own guild agrees you are more of a hinderance than a help:P

As for wildstar thats why I said I hope they live up to their promises on hardcore. All their interviews etc have them explaining they want to cater to the 1% for retention purposes since the 1% are usually the most vocal about how good or hard a raid is and if it is able to challenge them sufficiently so they dont end up sitting around waiting for content.

Lol at only 8 hour long AVs...never got in the ones that would last a day? Do you even remember the original mobs in there? Did you even have what it took to grind battlegrounds all day long? I remember having to do bgs at least 8-10 hours a day to grind the rank for the really good stuff.

Heh gotta love it when these benchwarmer raiders try to pretend to be better than they are:P Why not log in and help your guild grind through old farm content. I heard it took them 8+ hours of wipes to DG in 16 and 8m to get by it this week and they didnt get to kill terror yet. Sounds like they could really use your expert 4.8k dps openers:P

i honestly can't do a better job then video to show the state of raiding and what I miss.

 

 

No boss any game I have played yet felt better to have killed then Ouro,and C'thun. AQ 40 and Naxx 40 regardless to the few that saw them still the best raids

 

oh wow that looks great. i have to say the hardest boss i played in WoW was... Requiem of Souls. It was a really scary fight too (revolving rubiks cube boss with scary faces)

Edited August 2, 2013 by paowee

oh wow that looks great. i have to say the hardest boss i played in WoW was... Requiem of Souls. It was a really scary fight too (revolving rubiks cube boss with scary faces)

 

heh yeah that fight was fun. My favorite raid ever though in all the mmos Ive played is original BWL with a tie between chromag and nef encounter wise though original 4HM was pretty epic.

if you want a challenge use the 66 gear or player-crafted blues and purples. show how leet you are. we get it your 8 man NiM group is the Leetiest Leet that ever Leeted.. good for you your mom must be proud but how does it being easier for someone else affect you? and is 30 seconds really that big of a deal? there's rarely a point were you progress down to where you're absolutely stuck and can't get any further .. but another 30 seconds will have you farming the zone. it's not going to be a big deal in the grand scheme of the universe I promise. don't pout little sprout.. things will be okay

I actually like that idea of using old gear. Time to organize a full DG nightmare run:P

Not come across a decent raid since LOTRO's Rift (part of the old Shadows of Angmar game). There were no "hard modes", no easy versions. Just a very well put together multi-boss raid that enticed you in with a couple of straight forward boss encounters and that got progressively ever more difficult. Even after the the Moria and SOM releases and two level cap increase, the final boss (Thaurlach) was still very hard.

Yep i would loooove to have an undergeared run, have it recorded or streamed and then post it here.

Yep i would loooove to have an undergeared run, have it recorded or streamed and then post it here.

 

heh I wonder if it would be possible to do nightmare TFB in current form in rakata. That might be asking too much though especially for tanks/heals. Hell I'd imagine even in DG gear it would be tough as hell.

Not come across a decent raid since LOTRO's Rift (part of the old Shadows of Angmar game). There were no "hard modes", no easy versions. Just a very well put together multi-boss raid that enticed you in with a couple of straight forward boss encounters and that got progressively ever more difficult. Even after the the Moria and SOM releases and two level cap increase, the final boss (Thaurlach) was still very hard.

 

Ya that was good stuff. I was with one of (possibly the? Didn't check world ranks at that time) first guilds to have cleared it, Maelstrom. Spent months hitting that raid.

But honestly..after awhile it was just going through the motions. I think Ost Dunhoth may have been the biggest challenge in raiding I saw in that game (though you could actually switch to normal mode to clear locks and get to the end bosses on hard - someone claimed world first final boss kill by doing this, which most considered cheesy).

I think it took most top end guilds a couple months to get the entirety of Ost Dunhoth cleared, and that's the way raiding should be I think. People say 'lotro was ez mode raiding' but..some encounters such as these were actually very challenging.

I think it can be hard to balance the mechanics between difficulty due to excessive damage, challenge due to required techniques, and not over-doing the tank and spank mechanics. Honestly endgame would be boring if every fight was pull main, dps adds as they come, and stack for heals. I find that the difficulty of some runs drops once you get into things and get a flow and it's still a challenge but enjoyable.

 

Guess we'll see how I feel about NiM once I'm there, but as long as it's fun nothing wrong with close fights.

I think it can be hard to balance the mechanics between difficulty due to excessive damage, challenge due to required techniques, and not over-doing the tank and spank mechanics. Honestly endgame would be boring if every fight was pull main, dps adds as they come, and stack for heals. I find that the difficulty of some runs drops once you get into things and get a flow and it's still a challenge but enjoyable.

 

Guess we'll see how I feel about NiM once I'm there, but as long as it's fun nothing wrong with close fights.

 

The problem with the NiM DG fight is that it was severely overtuned at release. Players who were fully geared and had seen the HM incarnation dozens if not hundreds of times by this point, recycled content is recycled and whatnot, were wiping not due to the mechanics but to the ridiculous enrage timer. The mechanics were difficult to say the least, the damage from the bosses kept the healers stressed, the tanks were forced to contribute DPS to the priority boss while maintaining aggro on their secondary boss, it was fun and arguably the most fun fight to overcome thus far in the game. It was a terrible fight from the endpoint that the enrage timer wasn't realistic for anything other than a solid group of 8 top .5% players. Difficult fights that end with LOLENRAGE aren't fun, they're just tedious. Having seen all 3 of the bosses that come after the DG and putting less total pulls to down all 3 than we did for the Guard alone, one can safely say that pre-causual nerf the fight was not on par with the difficult of the rest of the instance.

 

They "nerfed" it and added 20 seconds to the enrage which made it completely realistic for any guild that could reasonable expect to meet the DPS and mechanics requirements for the subsequent bosses. Honestly the enrage for Terror is much harder, it's just the mechanics are so linear that you can find workarounds to maximize damage uptime. The Dread Guard fight required you to /roll every pull for healer or cheesable Dooms and Death Marks or you'd lose too much damage to make up for. We killed it with the extra 20 seconds, we killed it again without an enrage, and we titled before the big nerf came. Now the fight is a joke for us, which sucks because we can't engage a challenging boss in the instance anymore, but it's nice from the standpoint of RELICFARMLOL. There's still not a ton of NiM TFB clears, let alone titles because of the DPS requirement of Terror, which again is much higher than the Dread Guard ever was. We kill it weekly and have yet to see a non-Enrage kill.