i dont have a problem with pre-mades even though it gets SUPER annoying at night. My issue is trying to get new players to come and play. Some servers has players in the GSF Chats that actually trash talk and talk down to the new players both in the chat and in the matches general chat which forces them not to learn the roles of the ships or how to play in GSF. The reason why the community of GSF chat is small as it is cause we dont seem to get new players interested due to trolls and elite fliers.

The biggest problem is that in a faction vs. faction match (which happens more than half the time on Harbinger) four man groups are paired with other four man groups. If that gives a full 12 man team, the other team has no chance. It's like the Golden State Warriors playing against your local beer league players in basketball.

 

Good, someone else noticed.

 

In some games I've played it was more like a pro team vs a group of schoolkids. No, it wasn't fun to be among the "schoolkids"... mostly because the "pros" parked their ships on a spawn point in a deathmatch and kept blowing people away. That's not a "learning experience" for players as some people claim. No "don't spawn there" doesn't count. Sometimes the screen doesn't show any enemy ships before you launch. Maybe I'm a "carebear" (yawn) but I find myself not feeling very happy on the rare occasions when I'm on the "pro" side of that sort of match.

 

OTOH, in deathmatches where jerk moves like that weren't pulled by the "pros", I did figure out a few tricks... and those were fun matches, even if they ended with a loss. (Though winning a match against skilled opponents is also fun. *grin*)

 

The "let them have a sat" thing can work on outclassed teams, if the other side actually takes that sat you're leaving alone. (That was a... depressing match even if we won.) Otherwise, maybe the "pro" team should just let the counter get to 1000 and see if the next match has a challenge. Maybe one of those see-saw affairs that are great to fight in.

 

Yeah, as someone else said elsewhere in the thread it is not "imperative" for better players to ease off when they find themselves facing a team of very inexperienced/unskilled players. Alas, that poster doesn't realize it is also not "imperative" for lesser skilled players to keep getting "squished" instead of finding something less sadomasochistic to do. (Hm... pug KDY maybe?)

 

It's wise to remember that.

Just remember you are getting their "best" and should feel honored that they are not condescending toward you by taking it easy. Trust them they know what's best. It worked great on the servers they came from which is why they left. The queues were so full and healthy they thought they should help the poor folks on The Harbinger out. Soon that it too shall see their proven wisdom.

Just remember you are getting their "best" and should feel honored that they are not condescending toward you by taking it easy. Trust them they know what's best. It worked great on the servers they came from which is why they left. The queues were so full and healthy they thought they should help the poor folks on The Harbinger out. Soon that it too shall see their proven wisdom.

 

This is the second time in a couple of days that you've posted something to this effect. You seemed like an all right person when I played with you for Super Serious a few months back, so I'm surprised at your tone. Drakolich hasn't done anything to deserve it, as far as I know, unless you mistake being good at the game for hostility.

 

But regardless, you're wrong about why Bastion's queues are slow. See, this is actually a pretty simple thing. Back in June, Bioware heavily discounted character transfers. Since then, all PVP servers have had a severe population problem. Factor in the pre-expansion lull, and PVP servers are pretty dead.

 

Bastion, for example, hasn't climbed above "light" population (the lowest indicator Bioware has) in the past sixty days. Harbinger doesn't have that problem.

 

Lower population means fewer people playing any part of the game, including GSF. Fewer people playing means that there are fewer people in the queue. I realize that this might be a bit of a difficult concept to grasp, since you've struggled with it for months now, but bear with me here. We're almost done.

 

Fewer people in the queue means that getting a match can take a lot longer. Crazy how that works!

 

tl;dr: Character transfers and the pre-expansion lull are why PVP servers don't have as much GSF as Harbinger, and suggesting anything else is just silly.

Edited September 29, 2015 by DakhathKilrathi

I think the death of PvP servers has more to do with the ground game. Everyone wants their player-kill planetary achievements, so they're going farming, which makes leveling a new character a lot more of a chore, which in turn means fewer 60s for ranked. The philosophy of "If it's a fair fight, you're doing it wrong" is really bad for newbie retention in the ground game.

 

Heh, with the super-cheap transfers, I was even thinking of putting a mastered lvl 60 toon on the Bastion for one of the Super Serious nights.

Just remember you are getting their "best" and should feel honored that they are not condescending toward you by taking it easy. Trust them they know what's best. It worked great on the servers they came from which is why they left. The queues were so full and healthy they thought they should help the poor folks on The Harbinger out. Soon that it too shall see their proven wisdom.

 

Not that Drak needs me to defend him, but I transferred to Harbinger in the spring before the 90 cc deal was in place. I happened to see him stream a few times shortly after I transferred, but I'm pretty sure not before. Drak was testing things out on Harbinger by rolling a new toon for probably the past 4 months, and its only been in the past month maybe that we've seen a large group of his team mates make Harbinger their home. I'm not even sure Drak has actually transferred his main pub toon over yet.

 

So, I don't think your characterization that his team moved to Harbinger to teach us how to play is a fair or even slightly accurate one. Furthermore, neither he nor anyone else has to justify to anyone why they moved to another server. Its their time and money. Would you have preferred he move to a low pop server where he could just rolfstomp all over the competition in the one match per hour he might get at prime time? Or, would you rather his presence be a catalyst for further competition?

This is the second time in a couple of days that you've posted something to this effect. You seemed like an all right person when I played with you for Super Serious a few months back, so I'm surprised at your tone. Drakolich hasn't done anything to deserve it, as far as I know, unless you mistake being good at the game for hostility.

 

But regardless, you're wrong about why Bastion's queues are slow. See, this is actually a pretty simple thing. Back in June, Bioware heavily discounted character transfers. Since then, all PVP servers have had a severe population problem. Factor in the pre-expansion lull, and PVP servers are pretty dead.

 

Bastion, for example, hasn't climbed above "light" population (the lowest indicator Bioware has) in the past sixty days. Harbinger doesn't have that problem.

 

Lower population means fewer people playing any part of the game, including GSF. Fewer people playing means that there are fewer people in the queue. I realize that this might be a bit of a difficult concept to grasp, since you've struggled with it for months now, but bear with me here. We're almost done.

 

Fewer people in the queue means that getting a match can take a lot longer. Crazy how that works!

 

tl;dr: Character transfers and the pre-expansion lull are why PVP servers don't have as much GSF as Harbinger, and suggesting anything else is just silly.

Except Bastion's queues were dying before the reduction of transfer cost and The Harbinger's queues were fine before the transfers. Here's a history lesson for you. POT5 used to have a really good GSF presence too people were watching Nixx's streams before anyone knew who Drakolich was. What happened you ask? Casuals got caught in the middle of the rivalry between Black & Death Squadrons. They killed their queue, Death moved to Ebon Hawk while Black moved to The Harbinger. I am sure someone will cherry pick evidence supporting the contrary stance to mine. The observable is pretty forth coming. Just a word of caution when they kill The Harbinger's queue that will be it. There will be no fall back position unless they want to go spread their cancer to Europe.

 

I remember over a year ago talking to Okiobe an original The Harbinger streamer about the fact The Harbinger was GSF's best kept secret. In hind sight I should have left it that way.

 

So, I don't think your characterization that his team moved to Harbinger to teach us how to play is a fair or even slightly accurate one. Furthermore, neither he nor anyone else has to justify to anyone why they moved to another server. Its their time and money. Would you have preferred he move to a low pop server where he could just rolfstomp all over the competition in the one match per hour he might get at prime time? Or, would you rather his presence be a catalyst for further competition?

Now there is an idea worth exploring. If his theories are as iron clad as he portrays then he should be able to go to a low pop server and grow a flourishing community. That is not what is happening though. It's more akin to what you would see from a swarm of locusts.

who wants to hear Mako whine all the time even if she is the best choice for X ship

 

Mako has had a very tough life. Cut her some slack. Plus, who else is going to upload your highlights to the holonet.

 

I think you made some assumptions about how all aces feel that clearly do not apply to all aces. See this thread for more information:

Do we really need a requisition system?

 

You should also try to come to the stock event on Harbinger. If you think those players are nothing without their ships, try to queue against them. (Hint: many top players go imperial because Salana has wingman).

Now there is an idea worth exploring. If his theories are as iron clad as he portrays then he should be able to go to a low pop server and grow a flourishing community. That is not what is happening though. It's more akin to what you would see from a swarm of locusts.

 

As I mentioned, Drak was on Harbinger 4 months before he even sponsored his first event. I remember how the queues were when I first transferred (8 toons at the full price) and they were healthy back then too. I don't view this as a swarm of locusts because I play at all different times in the day: APAC prime time which is my right-before work time, mid afternoon if I have a short day, evening prime time for me which is just after dinner for west coasters, or prime time west coast which is late night for me (and Drak, FYI). Queues pop, bads get rolled, good matches happen. Last night, in the three hours prior to Drak coming on, pub was complaining about imp premades. I saw it in both chat channels because I was raiding on imp side. Monday is Lucklessa/Maulkat's guild imp flight night. She was on Harbinger long before Drak. Is she part of the problem too?

 

Like it or not, development decisions and other options in the MMO world have all but foretold some type of server consolidation here as well. Harbinger is a good destination regardless of the gameplay you like (operations, ground pvp, space pvp), and Drak isn't destroying that, he's nurturing it. I wouldn't be encouraging anyone to move to a low pop server at this point in the game, thought experiment or otherwise. Just ask the broadcasters from the Bad Feeling podcast how all that worked out on Jung Ma, and why they are moving (both of them like GSF). Just ask anyone who was there towards the end of SWG when they had open server transfers and why everyone moved to Starsider. Bottom line, most people want to go where there is action. Drak didn't come to Harbinger because he was hoping to infect the community with some purported false gospel about how to play GSF, he came because the queues pop here.

EDIT: as did many people, and I for one have become a better pilot and had more fun because of it.

Edited September 29, 2015 by phalczen

"This bickering is pointless." - Grand Moff Tarkin

"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." - Ellen Ripley

 

Now you might wonder what these two quotes have to do with each other. Simple. They are an apt description of my feelings for where this thread has gone in the last 3-4 pages.

 

I wish the matchmaker was better, or we had more options to groom our games (would be nice for the super serious nights, if nothing else), but it's not going to happen any time soon.

 

And to others talking about new players... It's a valid complaint, but it's one I'm tired of re-hashing. This community has discussed how to get more people flying ad nauseam since the module came out, and aside from the things that are being done (the guides, the streams, the YouTube vids, etc), there's very little else we can do. BioWare has never given GSF the tools it needs to succeed. Sometimes, I read the, "But the new people!" posts, and they just seem self serving when they are right after a long diatribe about being farmed in a match.

 

I'm no longer interested in telling vets how to fly. They fly for fun. Let them fly how they want. And I can't help the guy who goes from 100-0% moving in a straight line while I rip through shields then health with stock RFLs unless he asks for it. Some games, it just doesn't matter what I fly, and short of going afk in the match, simply being there in anything is enough to swing games. If I were to clone myself 3 times, and Zuckerkorn 3 times... It wouldn't matter what we flew in most matches barring running into a double team of Drako. The skill level on our side would just be too high for almost all but the best to overcome. And the solution is absolutely not to tell us to stop playing for the sake of... whatever.

 

Some people play this module, love it enough to take their lumps and get better, and become part of the community. Others rage that wins aren't handed to them, decry the game, and never fly again. At some point, it has to be on the individual to take some personal responsibility to get better and/or learn if they want to continue to play. The whole, "Lead a horse to water..." analogy here is very apt.

 

The truth is that there is no one on the forums that is more approachable than Drakolich is, and probably no one that does more for the community than he does. He can't help it. He's Canadian.

 

But even pulling punches, he plays to win, as do we all. I cannot fault him for that. And telling them to stop flying together is in effect telling them to stop flying.

 

I'll just say to anyone who feels the same way about the groups here... For someone like Drako, the people he flies with are his guild. GSF is their Operation. They log in to get together in voip and have a good time while blowing things up, which is effectively where my ground PVE guild is at this point. The Ops are stale, we've beaten everything except for HM Revan, and at this point, it's just time to hang out and game with some friends, and I absolutely cannot fault him/them for that, even if I end up solo-qing and run up against them.

Just a word of caution when they kill The Harbinger's queue that will be it. There will be no fall back position unless they want to go spread their cancer to Europe.

Are you running for office? That level of overblown, mean-spirited rhetoric is usually reserved for politicians and pro wrestlers. Also, what a load of crap. In case you haven't been there lately, there are quite a lot of good pilots flying on Harbinger, probably the largest concentration of such seen outside of event nights. There are times when every night is like an event night. I'm not sure what your position is.

 

Should Drak and other teams not queue as a team, unless they are bad teams, and then maybe it's ok because they won't disease the server with their pestilent good play? Should nobody group, and maybe keep a weaponless Quell on their bar so that they have something wholly non-threatening to fly? Maybe the sight of a weaponless Quell will seem like a trick to the new pilots, and they will quit out of fear that they are being deceived.

 

Harbinger right now has a whole lot of great pilots, good pilots, and bad pilots (or new pilots). Mainly, there are a whole lot of pilots. People often go out of their way to group with them, offer advice, and keep the sides evened up.

 

 

I remember over a year ago talking to Okiobe an original The Harbinger streamer about the fact The Harbinger was GSF's best kept secret. In hind sight I should have left it that way.

You know, maybe your experience was different, but when I first started out on Harbinger, about a year or so ago, it was a brutal crucible of unyielding destruction that was often so lopsided that it was hopeless. And that horrible cancer left it a gutted shell with no players and no GSF and--- oh wait, it's now the most populous and active GSF server. And it didn't get that way based on a reputation for fair play and sportsmanship.

 

Maybe save your doomsaying for the next time a comet is about to pass close to the Earth, or some weird numerology date is coming up.

 

If any new players happen to venture into this echo chamber, seek out some experienced pilots and ask them to group with you and/or offer advice. Chances are they will agree, you will learn, and everyone will get better for it.

 

Despon

Edited September 29, 2015 by caederon

You know, maybe your experience was different, but when I first started out on Harbinger, about a year or so ago, it was a brutal crucible of unyielding destruction that was often so lopsided that it was hopeless. And that horrible cancer left it a gutted shell with no players and no GSF and--- oh wait, it's now the most populous and active GSF server. And it didn't get that way based on a reputation for fair play and sportsmanship.

 

Despon

I know of whom you speak. I flew with and against them and my pub character maintained around a 70% win percentage under those conditions solo queing. The only time it was ruthless was on Star Fighter conquest weeks. So yeah I guess our experiences are/were different. They at least had a little common sense rather than trying philosophize their way into and out of everything. You still seem to think that I am speaking out of ignorance where opposite is true I have been watching the effect of this team's migrations for quite some time. At no time has the native population grown in their presence. Sure their friends follow them where ever they go but they do not build up or benefit any community. Are they informative? Yes. Have they helped individuals? Yes. Have they arranged some fun one night events? Yes. Is their long term presence beneficial? No.

 

P.S. I am a true native of The Harbinger (Me and my guild auto spawned here at launch). So I have seen everything this server has gone through from day one.

Some people play this module, love it enough to take their lumps and get better, and become part of the community. Others rage that wins aren't handed to them, decry the game, and never fly again. At some point, it has to be on the individual to take some personal responsibility to get better and/or learn if they want to continue to play. The whole, "Lead a horse to water..." analogy here is very apt.

 

Or they get tired of being abused and stop feeding the abusers. Then the abusers whinge and sneer things like "you want wins handed to you" hoping to entice their victims into continuing to be good little target drones to "squish" as one of the earlier posters put it.

 

It's a nice little bit of projection on your part: One could argue that those roflstomping over newbies and disorganized teams are the ones having "wins handed to them". I can understand why someone might rage and sneer at people who say they are tired of it and leave: That sort of person needs to have their source of easy wins and "squishing" cooperate and get farmed like good little drones.

 

I will repeat another point I made: While it is not imperative that pre-mades and "pros" ease off when they find themselves facing hopelessly outmatched teams, it is also not imperative that outmatched players continue queuing up to be good little target drones for ye gods of GSF.

 

My win/loss is about 50/50 amongst three alts. I have said before I do not mind losing, so long as the match was fun. Getting roflstomped repeatedly is not fun. If it happens too much, I will simply note the names of the players involved and leave the game if I am queued with them. OTOH, if a "pro" or a pre-made behaves and wins without pulling jerk moves like spawn-camping, when I queue again I likely will not leave if I see the same players on the other side. Stick. Carrot.

I know of whom you speak. I flew with and against them and my pub character maintained around a 70% win percentage under those conditions solo queing. The only time it was ruthless was on Star Fighter conquest weeks. So yeah I guess our experiences are/were different. They at least had a little common sense rather than trying philosophize their way into and out of everything. You still seem to think that I am speaking out of ignorance where opposite is true I have been watching the effect of this team's migrations for quite some time. At no time has the native population grown in their presence. Sure their friends follow them where ever they go but they do not build up or benefit any community. Are they informative? Yes. Have they helped individuals? Yes. Have they arranged some fun one night events? Yes. Is their long term presence beneficial? No.

 

P.S. I am a true native of The Harbinger (Me and my guild auto spawned here at launch). So I have seen everything this server has gone through from day one.

 

OK, I take 2 issues with this. The first is that this is completely anecdotal. Give me numbers to show what you're talking about. Hard data. Not the feelies.

 

But seriously... You've been flying long enough to know the root of this problem. You dance right past it when you say.

At no time has the native population grown(Period, end of sentence - Nyght) in their presence.

The callout is the root of the problem. The "dead" servers for GSF aren't dead because Drako or anyone else move around. They are dead because the module is broken, we've not had any Dev activity since the "Let's talk about Strike Fighters" post (that no yellow name EVER came back to post on), we haven't had an update AT ALL in more than a year, and the last real update we got was to tell us they were canceling Stealth Ships. In an even more general sense, the GSF is dead because those servers are simply dying. Go through the graphs on the site Sriia provided. Harbinger is the ONLY one of all NA servers to even hit "Heavy" usage. With the exception of TEH, not a single RP or PVP server even hits the "Standard" mark, with BC finally flatlining ~3 weeks ago.

 

I have had through my GSF career very little to do with Drako, but I moved to Harbinger because "The GSF community there is active" I was told. By a lot of people. I go there, and it turns out to be true. Don't blame people for going where there are games.

 

If you want a relatively quiet, but still fairly active server, come to JC. Of all the servers I have flown on, it remains the only server I very rarely run into full on premades. There are some very skilled pilots there, and you can often find 2v1 or 3v2 or 3v3 games, with a bunch of younglings thrown in. The pops aren't as frequent (Typical wait time is from 10-30 minutes, but I've had to wait for 2 hours before... Especially late night/early morning.), but they do happen.

 

But get out of here with this 1-2 premade groups are ruining all of GSF for all of time as they move from server to server. The servers, for the moment anyway, are dying.

 

It remains to be seen how much revival there is with 4.0, but my guess is that outside of single player activity, not much is going to change. 4.0 has no new Ops. 4.0 has no new FPs. 4.0 has no new ground PVP content. 4.0 has no new GSF content.

 

They are upping the difficulties for Ops and FPs, supposedly, but the content is old and tired. You want to know something else telling? They are adding solo mode to EVERY FP that has a "crucial" story element.

 

And THAT is why the queues for GSF all over are drying up. It has nothing to do with nomadic pilots, and everything to do with a game the has a shrinking player base.

It's a nice little bit of projection on your part: One could argue that those roflstomping over newbies and disorganized teams are the ones having "wins handed to them". I can understand why someone might rage and sneer at people who say they are tired of it and leave: That sort of person needs to have their source of easy wins and "squishing" cooperate and get farmed like good little drones.

And precisely what are you doing to change this? Are you making tutorial videos? Are you organizing GSF events? Are you writing lengthy theory posts about how to fly? Are you personally messaging each and every person who underperforms in these matches? Have you offered to take people under your wing, start grouping with them? Drako has done ALL of this. So have most of those on his team. You start telling me precisely what YOU are doing to help actively grow the population, and I might take you seriously.

 

You don't know anything about me, and yet you presume to tell me that I'm part of the roflstomping "problem" or accuse me of having an elitist attitude. You want to talk about projection.

 

But you're dam right I'm sick of this tired old conversation.

 

Edit - You can talk about sticks and carrots all you want. But can I ask you a serious question? What's your plan to improve the population of GSF when the population of the game as a whole is in decline? With a little help from BioWare, since inception, we have talked about a better tutorial. A way to "duel" someone so you could actually teach them. More maps. Better matchmaking. Cross-server queues. 6v6 or even 4v4 to help matchmaking. Do you seriously think that after all this time, the solution is as simple as "we should be nicer"? Again... Search these forums. The topic of taking it easy on the newbies has been discussed ad infinitum. If I'm doing this or this in a Clarion... How much easier can I possibly take it on people? Your solution turns quickly into, "You need to stop playing".

Edited September 30, 2015 by nyghtrunner

Just remember you are getting their "best" and should feel honored that they are not condescending toward you by taking it easy. Trust them they know what's best. It worked great on the servers they came from which is why they left. The queues were so full and healthy they thought they should help the poor folks on The Harbinger out. Soon that it too shall see their proven wisdom.

 

Meanwhile, here is a video of an Imperial team including Drexxon farming a Republic team of mostly rookies:

 

 

Is Drexxon not Lendul?

 

If so, why did he not take it easy against such a weak Republic team? Why did he not convince his teammates to take it easy? Why did he fly a Gunship, when rookies complain about Gunships the most?

 

Greenlance left the ops group.

Xaxuna left the ops group.

 

If Drexxon is indeed Lendul, the famous Champion of the People and the Guardian Angel of Rookie Starpilots, why did Greenlance and Xaxuna leave the match when their salvation is in the match?

 

[Ops][Dee'ity]: leave ops group...keep it up and they'll disband (sic)

 

Why did Dee'ity not give Drexxon the benefit of the doubt to being a good sport?

 

[Ops Leader][Lightday]: why are people leaving ?

[Ops][Dee'ity]: cause this other team is dominating and wont let up

Dee'ity left the ops group.

 

And we all know that rookies assume enemies are a pre-made team when they are not, and exaggerate dominance of the better team. So there must be zero chance that the Empire team was a pre-made, or was dominating match after match, right?

 

[Ops Leader][Lightday]: w t f gunships

 

If Drexxon is indeed Lendul, surely he would fly the much weaker Imperium on his bar instead of the Gunship, to help out the rookies in whichever way possible, to help grow a flourishing community, right?

 

[Ops Leader][Lightday]: every single one of my galactical are losses (sic)

 

No way! How can this be true, when Lightday flies on the same server as Lendul the Magnanimous?

 

50:15

 

See? Not a domination at all. Bad rookies, always exaggerating!

 

Drexxon: most kills and damage in a 50:15 win

 

Yes, I do believe those Republic rookies feel honored that Drexxon was not condescending! Drexxon's tactics were so successful, I'm sure no rookie ever quit a match against him again!

So your evidence against me is a game where I stay in the middle and don't camp or push hard against the enemy team and focused mainly on killing the other team's best player which was you? If anything this game proves my point about how fragile a queue is. Considering they didn't want to play anymore even though we were holding back. And let me restate it one more time for emphasis most of my kills were on you.

 

Oh and less we forget even with all of that I still apologized to you directly.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8222369#post8222369

Edited September 30, 2015 by Lendul

And precisely what are you doing to change this? Are you making tutorial videos? Are you organizing GSF events? Are you writing lengthy theory posts about how to fly? Are you personally messaging each and every person who underperforms in these matches? Have you offered to take people under your wing, start grouping with them? Drako has done ALL of this. So have most of those on his team. You start telling me precisely what YOU are doing to help actively grow the population, and I might take you seriously.

 

Ah, the usual mass of imperious demands to be used as an excuse to ignore a point. How cute.

 

You don't know anything about me, and yet you presume to tell me that I'm part of the roflstomping "problem" or accuse me of having an elitist attitude. You want to talk about projection.

 

Your shrill indignant cry and scoffing at the idea that repeatedly roflstomping people is an issue would seem to indicate I am close to the mark.

 

Though I do know something about you. I know you presume people complaining about roflstomping want "wins handed to them". Since I did not recall anyone saying they wanted that (closest I've been able to find on this thread is a "chance" at a win by the OP) I concluded it was something you attribute to those people since it is what you would do if you were them and it makes it easy to summarily dismiss that sort of complaint.

 

(It is also amusing that I made a posting over 12 hours before yours complaining about roflstomping and yet noting that winning wasn't the important thing, having fun was and even being on the winning side of a roflstomp was not desirable or fun... Sometimes it helps to pay attention. Oh wait, that would get in the way of your Narrative of sneering dismissal of those icky people who disagree with you. My bad.)

 

But you're dam right I'm sick of this tired old conversation.

 

Getting the respect you deserve instead of what you desire?

 

Too bad.

 

Keep crushing people over and over and they will not bother queuing anymore. Despite any "tutorials" or "advice" or "taking under wing" and so on as you imperiously demand above. That is a problem contingent on the behavior of those doing the crushing, not those being crushed. I guess the people who are not you (despite your sneering at those who call those definitely not you types on their behavior) will eventually have to find someone else to abuse.

 

Oh well.

 

Oh look, an edit with an attempt at a parting shot and more like a repeat of the imperious demands above. Though perhaps I should be heartened that you overrode the "skim until offended" impulse if only to find another thing to be offended at.

 

Edit - You can talk about sticks and carrots all you want. But can I ask you a serious question?

 

Unlikely.

 

What's your plan to improve the population of GSF when the population of the game as a whole is in decline? With a little help from BioWare, since inception, we have talked about a better tutorial. A way to "duel" someone so you could actually teach them. More maps. Better matchmaking. Cross-server queues. 6v6 or even 4v4 to help matchmaking. Do you seriously think that after all this time, the solution is as simple as "we should be nicer"? Again... Search these forums. The topic of taking it easy on the newbies has been discussed ad infinitum. If I'm doing this or this in a Clarion... How much easier can I possibly take it on people? Your solution turns quickly into, "You need to stop playing".

 

Sorry, my view isn't "you need to stop playing" it's "people will stop playing if this keeps happening". No more, no less. Though I thought you denied you were part of the roflstomping problem...

 

Maybe this will sink in on the third try, but I doubt it:

 

While it is not imperative that pre-mades and "pros" ease off when they find themselves facing hopelessly outmatched teams, it is also not imperative that outmatched players continue queuing up to be good little target drones for ye gods of GSF.

 

Yes, I've noticed suggestions being made and seen them be summarily dismissed like your "be nicer" sneer. Perhaps I simply ask the impossible, I really shouldn't be so hard on those roflstomp types who are not you.

 

Enjoy the queues.

Now there is an idea worth exploring. If his theories are as iron clad as he portrays then he should be able to go to a low pop server and grow a flourishing community. That is not what is happening though. It's more akin to what you would see from a swarm of locusts.

 

It's interesting that you called us that.

 

By the way? Harbinger's GSF population is due to the fact that it has the largest population of any server, period. It's the server where APAC players went, and if you think that doesn't have anything to do with the population... I dunno what to tell you. Let me know when you join us here in reality again.

Edited September 30, 2015 by DakhathKilrathi

They should give the option to head out in unupgraded ships. A check box or something. You can still use components you have purchased, but in their basic state.

 

Doubt you'll see many elect to use it though.

They should give the option to head out in unupgraded ships. A check box or something. You can still use components you have purchased, but in their basic state.

 

Doubt you'll see many elect to use it though.

In fact, we have a whole series of events based on this very concept. Stock Night events have been going on for over a year, where everyone participating flies stock ships, no upgrades, no crew other than the default. It's fun and interesting, and the results have gone a long way to showing that player skill and tactical awareness is far more important to a pilot's overall performance than gear.

 

There is even a Stock Night being advertised currently in another post on this forum.

 

Despon

Edited September 30, 2015 by caederon

@Gorgothus:

 

What the devs could of done, or in my opinion should of done. They should of put everybody on the same playing field..period.

 

First, I like the way they did things.

 

Second, we all know where you are coming from. A game based purely on skill, with no gearing up whatsoever, is certainly what many players wanted.

 

I don't think it's that simple though. I'll briefly go through the reasons why the devs *probably* wanted to implement the way that they did. You can point by point whatever if you want- I don't really think that this list is the best way to design a game or anything. But do remember that this is game design. And when you come across a point and say "well, they could have added a mode to do X", of course they could have. We've all bled plenty of ink coming up with great ways to make the game approachable, fix balance issues, add depth, etc. The point is that the game hasn't even fixed bugs or balance issues that they themselves have finally said "ya, is a problem", and when they finally do it will be after a year or more in all cases.

 

1)- Sense of progression. The stock ships are crap. With just a bit of play, you get massive upgrades to them- every game or two at first. It takes very little req to go from a ship that is highly limited and weak to a ship that flies decently and has some offensive and defensive tricks. That's deliberate. Stock ships are so weak on purpose. Ships with a mere 10k req are much stronger than stock on purpose. The one thing the devs know about everyone playing this game is, they like to level up. Seeing your ship become powerful lets you understand that the game will become easier for you, and it lets you blame your loss on gear (even though in most cases, the gear doesn't matter).

 

( I also want to point out that the difference between stock ships and mastered ships is quite trivial compared to skill differences. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=755330 - my points don't claim otherwise, but I'm pointing out that a stock ramps crazy fast )

 

2)- Repeat play, conditioning. By having stuff like "daily quests" and "weekly quests", they encourage you to not play the game TOO much, but also to check in and play the game some each day. Go a day, you don't get your free req to all ships. Go a week, you don't get your LARGE amount of req to all ships. They clearly try to hit a point where you don't feel the need to play every day, but you do feel tweaked for not doing it. This requires a mechanism that rewards power, not cosmetic crap. Players will play for power, they will queue up and wait for power, they will form groups to play and win for power. Will every player respond that way? Of course not. Some want a flat and fair scenario right away. But by telling them "log in each day and play, and your power goes up faster than if you did not", you get a lot of compliance. Players who play each day are more likely to stick with a game, become skilled at it, care about it. Since everyone here already plays an MMO....

 

3)- Leveling efficiency. There are some pretty brutal steps taken to ensure that GSF, while it is rewarding to the ground game in terms of XP, is not something you use to power your alts. Assume everyone starts with something I have, and I think almost no one else does- every single upgrade on every single ship, with no way to purchase a single other thing. Forget about the fact that many players won't feel the "must level" urge touched on in the first two, and focus on the fact that your low level character now has something he can do for XP- and he's *fully effective* at it. If you are good at GSF, you'll level your alts this way. You'll *always* be leveling alts this way, probably, while running around with 12x XP for your stories or whatever. This means that they would have to be sure to set the rewards appropriately. By making each fresh character weak, they get compliance with their overall design with the rest of the game. While the current game mostly hands out levels, that's a deliberate choice, and one they can toggle to shift player actions- they wouldn't want GSF to be a free ride for alts whose players can GSF. This is also presumably a big part of why there's no shared hangars.

 

4)- Fight for new experiences! By locking each element up individually, they promise new play experiences for mastered ships, once you get more req on them. Your burst / clusters scout is great, but you probably want to unlock pods. Maybe quads. Wanna try out some different engines? All of these things encourage you to play on your mastered ship to unlock even more stuff.

 

5)- Monetization. The game lets you convert "ship req", which is easy to earn, to "fleet req", for cartel coins. You can use fleet req to unlock ships and crew members. I recommend a bit of this when starting a new character- the cost is quite modest, and I very much suspect it was designed to grab it a bit. But fleet req has a second, sillier purpose- you can spend it *as if it were ship req*. I don't recommend this to new players- while the cost equivalent is a couple bucks to help you speed along your initial fleet purchases, it becomes more than an order of magnitude more expensive to master a ship (and like two orders of magnitude to complete one, not that any one would do this). Most players will not spend much or any cash explicitly for this, but others sometimes will. This is to generate a demand for cash spending, while keeping it entirely optional. But without an XP system, this would be gone completely. No one knows how much they make with GSF- it stands to reason it is something, but not a great deal. In general, the devs set it up such that the power gain for doing this swap is very minor- after all, if you spend 30 bucks to master your scout, you took that XP from a strike or something that you'll eventually want to at least *try*, right? The fact that this is here is absolutely a consideration for this whole mode.

 

Objectively, the devs "erred" on the side of the players- the game is highly skill based, with gear not mattering anywhere close. The game requires no cash be spent, and the rewards for spending more than a couple dollars ever are very small, so most players will not do it. This probably hurts GSF's profitability, though I'm very glad the game doesn't feel like a cash grab, or have pay to win stuff.

 

You don't have to think these things are great design, but they are GSF's design- and the devs likely had it handed to them from business to do it this way. I doubt very much that there was a big option to go the other way. The game positively hands out requisition, the top tiers take comparably little, and the power delta between half way to max and max is pretty damned small. In any event, you are making a *business case* for a different design- not a game design case. And in player circles, you are just not going to find people who disagree with you really. Even I would have preferred a game with no requisition- but I wouldn't want it to go away now.

 

6)- Players who HAVE spent the time for gear are less likely to quit. I think it's awesome that I can pick any upgrade on any ship and queue up. It's an exclusive club- I think just me, period- but everyone who has mastered ships with the upgrades that they CARE about knows that they went and did the actions to make that happen. That's presumably a design goal too.

 

As soon as Bioware decided to really change the playing field by putting Power-ups, Crew-choices, ordnance layouts that have different levels trees they already separated the hard-core from the new player.

 

The thing is- that's a good difference. While I can get your desire to have a game where everyone starts with everything, I really need to draw a line where you talk about crew choices and build layout hurting new players. That ads depth- a new player in the world where everything is unlocked would have plenty of play experiences between his starting case and where he finds one of the builds that works for him, and even if he just grabs build guides, he still has a lot of ways to build and play- at this point I'd say that any ship with one viable build has at least two, and some have more. This keeps the game fresh. A new player should feel overwhelmed- the game has a ton of options. Whether he should feel so naked for so long is another topic, addressed above. But reducing the max depth of the game to appease random food ships dipping their toes into a great game is just crap. Screw that noise.

 

 

So no matter what you say, L2P or the game is fine, stick through it and level up some ships..it really seriously doesn't matter to everybody else.

 

Right, I don't care though. I don't need to care. I just need to blow up the red ships and make all the nodes green. They can internalize it how they want. It's great if they see the depth of the game and enjoy it, but at the end of the day I'm healing allies, defending areas, buffing close alliies, blowing up enemies, etc. They can learn to play, or they can eat railgun. Both are wins on my end!

 

So what's this sweet point? Well in a lot of games were they add in all the extra nonsense, power ups, levels , and other choices, it's when you've finally committed to memory where all the power ups spawn and their times, what ship or fighter or weapon layout has the best dps when out fitted a certain way and you've finally mastered all your components.

 

You list power ups with levels. Levels don't really reward skill much. Knowing who has what powerup, that stuff- that adds depth to the game. That's good! Powerups are good because at any skill level they offer extra play options. It's very odd to me that you think this stuff that rewards skill and practice is in the same boat as the stuff that rewards more grindy behaviors. A game that doesn't have end game depth isn't worth playing at the start, and a lot of players know that too.

 

I hope you can agree because a mastered ship is miles more powerful than a stock ship, not including the other factors.

 

I always have to correct this. A stock ship is garbage, but no one is flying stock ships. Except Drakolich sometimes, lol. Stock ships become non stock after one game. They become nothing like stock ships after a very brief amount of flying. Stock ships are not the base of comparison, any more than a level 1 in the ground game is. Ships with 1/10th the effort put into them as a mastered ships, compared with mastered ships, are less powerful, but not by a huge amount. The few outstanding issues- such as the 10k armor pen laser upgrade- are things that we campaign against, because, unlike the random foodships we eat, we all reroll enough to be sick of being in that case. We don't complain about stock ships, because you are done with that immediately. Don't compare a damned thing to stock ships. Newbs complaining aren't in stock ships. No one is.

 

 

Wouldn't you all rather play a game where it boiled down to your ability vs who the guy who got the power up with the gun that's been leveled up to shoot 20 targets, clips through walls and cooks cheeseburger and hits so hard it deletes the targets account?

 

It's just nuts to me that you compare the gear difference to knowing where the power ups are, and how to build a ship for a specific purpose. No, I wouldn't rather play a game where my skill and practice didn't matter. I wouldn't have minded if GSF had launched without gear, but I wouldn't want it to go away now, but the power ups, the strategies, the stuff that separates players who practiced and got good, versus those that did not?

 

 

No, I wouldn't want to play that. Sounds like some mobile game.

 

 

What if there was no power ups that allowed ships to practically melt anybody or turn the tide in favor for those who like to memory map them and or control their spawning locations. Could you still handle this?

 

Nah. It's just a dumbed down game. The game is better not being dumbed down. Again, I get the complaints about the fact that there's gear in the game at all- I disagree, but I think that's a totally valid thing. Trying to remove all the things that you can't get without practice, such as spawn locations, etc, is just saying "make the game not have any depth, because someone will plumb those depths before me, and I'll have to play against them". What you are missing is that without that depth, you don't have anything to aspire to- you would learn how to play, not Galactic Star Fighter, but Generic Strike Feeder, and after reaching a level of Basic Female Canine, you'd be done- nothing else to do. Game understood. Move on.

 

Instead we have a game with lots of depth and replayability. I wouldn't trade it for your vision ever.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Verain

FIrst, I have no real problem with pre-maid VOIP teams but I do have some thoughts on what Verain has to say below.

 

1)- Sense of progression. .....

 

To me progression is overrated in PVP, I play GSF to PVP and PVE story for progression. My favorite PVP in an MMO is GW2 where from LVL 1 in any class (if you know what you are doing) you can contribute and even carry a team. The reason for this is 99% of all items are available to you from the start, a few runes are behind a 5 gold pay wall, which none see use in meta. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Build

 

Also if "stock ramps crazy fast" then whats the point just unlock everything but we know this is not true; since I have been back I have leveled four alts from 1 to 60 and have yet to master one ship on any of them.

 

If the Devs wanted some kind of "progression" it should only be acquiring ships but once you get that ship all of it is open to you. This will show all; losses are not based on gear but on skill.

 

2)- Repeat play, conditioning. ....

 

The reward for playing PVP is the PVP; not getting more powerful but getting better skilled at it. We mostly queue up daily because we love the game mode not just for rewards. Speaking of rewards what would be so bad in just getting cosmetics and PVE rewards in GSF? This is another thing GW2 does perfect with reward tracks. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/PvP_Reward_Track

 

 

3)- Leveling efficiency. ....

 

Like i said progression/leveling is overrated in PVP, "must level" is an old MMO thinking. If wanting to lvl alts in PVP is your thing then it should be allowed maybe you have done the story 12 times already and don't want to do it for the 13th time why shouldn't PVP be an alternative? I Know I keep referencing GW2 but oh well; as rewards in GW2 PVP you can get a 1 level up tome as you progress on your pvp track , it makes for a great alternate way to lvl alts especially when you have done the story multiple times. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tome_of_Knowledge

 

 

4)- Fight for new experiences! ...

 

All of this can be done by unlocking everything and is even easier to do so.

 

5)- Monetization. ....

 

Again progressing your ship should not be needed in PVP if they wanted to monetize GSF a better answer should be more ship skins, more slots on your bar and cosmetics. This also would generate a demand for cash spending, while keeping it entirely optional.

 

Objectively, the devs "erred" on the side of the players- the game is highly skill based, with gear not mattering anywhere close. The game requires no cash be spent, and the rewards for spending more than a couple dollars ever are very small, so most players will not do it. This probably hurts GSF's profitability, though I'm very glad the game doesn't feel like a cash grab, or have pay to win stuff.

 

I agree, then they should just open it up let the skill show. I consider myself a good pilot not an ace or anything but when leveling alts its all frustration. Let me give you an example of what I have been going through since I have been back playing on TEH . There is a team of pubs with 2 T2 bombers, 1 T1GS and 1 T2 scout which queues together most of the time I play. While my side most morning have been 2 shippers an on occasion someone with a full bar. This is most likely a lost in my starter ships. I still play as hard and as smart as I can but I cant really carry the team of newbies. Now if we all had max ships even if they are new or pretty new we could have some kind of counter with GS ions aoe or what ever. Even if we still lost we would have lost because the other team was just better. Although how much skill there is playing a T2 bomber with 100% Acc is debatable but that is a topic for a different day. The play and counter play is what PVP should always be about.

 

 

6)- Players who HAVE spent the time for gear are less likely to quit. I think it's awesome that I can pick any upgrade on any ship and queue up. It's an exclusive club- I think just me, period- but everyone who has mastered ships with the upgrades that they CARE about knows that they went and did the actions to make that happen. That's presumably a design goal too.

 

Nope 100% nope

 

Players who enjoy the game are less likely to quit. I spend time and money in and on games all the time and as soon as I stop enjoying the game play or story or community I quit with no problem and most of the gamers mmo or otherwise, I know are the same. I also think it's awesome that I can pick any upgrade on any ship and queue up, why not share that feeling. Bring everyone into the club. Because the design goal of tiers because of equipment disparagement is a dying model that is hurting GSF or any PVP.

Edited September 30, 2015 by davidrodriguezjr

Also if "stock ramps crazy fast" then whats the point just unlock everything but we know this is not true; since I have been back I have leveled four alts from 1 to 60 and have yet to master one ship on any of them.

I am pretty sure what Verain meant is that the first upgrades are most meaningful. For example, if I take a Novadive and put 1000 requisition into the rocket pods, I will be able to destroy turrets and charged plating bombers much easier. To me, the next 32,500 requisition on the rocket pods is not as important as that first 1000. Not all components work this way, but every ship has many components that do work this way.

 

There are two things that make this a problem for new players. If either one was fixed, it would not be a problem:

1. Not all components are equal and the new players have no idea which ones are better. If the developers even did balance passes with simple number buffs to the broken components 4 times a year, this would be much less of a problem.

2. A lot of ships start with components that are inferior, most notably rapid fire lasers. Thus, they could easily waste 33,500 requisition on a full upgrade of rapid fire lasers (e.g. my original Novadive). The developers could switch out the starting components to the most popular end components to solve this problem.

 

I actually would not mind if they got rid of ship requisition. However, I queue more regularly at prime time because of dailies/weeklies. It might hurt the queue substantially. It is not clear at all.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Ardaneb