@David was asking for your idea of a starting/basic rotation, why don't you just give it to him instead of complaining about other peoples ideas.

He asked for the correct opener. The correct opener in PVP is unquestionably debatable (it also arguably doesn't exist as the optimal opener is completely dependent on the situation). So I told him it was debatable.

 

It's also completely beside the point because, whatever the optimal opener is, it's not even plausibly the one posted in that guide.

 

I'm not here to crap on everything I don't agree with. I read and deliberately do not post in most threads on this board. But this is a Dulfy guide here. People genuinely google for Dulfy guides and put trust in them. And that concentration guide is full of bad advice. It deserves criticism.

Edited February 2, 2018 by yellow_

He asked for the correct opener. The correct opener in PVP is unquestionably debatable (it also arguably doesn't exist as the optimal opener is completely dependent on the situation). So I told him it was debatable.

 

It's also completely beside the point because, whatever the optimal opener is, it's not even plausibly the one posted in that guide.

 

I'm not here to crap on everything I don't agree with. I read and deliberately do not post in most threads on this board. But this is a Dulfy guide here. People genuinely google for Dulfy guides and put trust in them. And that concentration guide is full of bad advice. It deserves criticism.

 

So basically you're not even going to post any opener at all. How helpful do you think handwaving is to a noob?

 

Anybody who knows an opener can be flexible (even if we all have our favourites and 'best' or optimal damage rotation w/ no dcd's considered), doesn't need a guide.

Edited February 2, 2018 by RACATW

So basically you're not even going to post any opener at all. How helpful do you think handwaving is to a noob?

 

Anybody who knows an opener can be flexible (even if we all have our favourites and 'best' or optimal damage rotation w/ no dcd's considered), doesn't need a guide.

A guide with a perfectly acceptable opener (and an explanation of what to do after said opener, which the dulfy guide omits entirely) was literally the 2nd reply to the thread.

 

I'm choosing to help by pointing out that a public guide from a trusted website actually recommends a lot of things that you should not be doing. The chip on your shoulder may lead you to believe I'm somehow obligated to help in another manner, but I'm not.

 

Also, I am fairly certain the OP would not even read the openers I use and the accompanying wall of text I would need to put up in order to explain why and when they're used if I bothered to post it anyway.

Edited February 2, 2018 by yellow_

A guide with a perfectly acceptable opener (and an explanation of what to do after said opener, which the dulfy guide omits entirely) was literally the 2nd reply to the thread.

 

I'm choosing to help by pointing out that a public guide from a trusted website actually recommends a lot of things that you should not be doing. The chip on your shoulder may lead you to believe I'm somehow obligated to help in another manner, but I'm not.

 

Also, I am fairly certain the OP would not even read the openers I use and the accompanying wall of text I would need to put up in order to explain why and when they're used if I bothered to post it anyway.

 

https://vulkk.com/2017/02/21/sith-marauder-fury-discipline-swtor-5-0-guide/3/

 

You can find openers, rotation templates here.

 

Also, you can play around with these depending on the situation.

 

Learned the spec from this guide. It's for PVE, but lots of info from his guide can be used for PVP and general understanding of how the spec works.

There are no strict rotations in PVP, you do not have the consistent up time reliably on a target to be able to keep a rotation going without interruption. Arguably however, of all the Mara/Sent specs Fury/Concentration has the best uptime and more reliable rotational priorities. In PVP you need to work with priorities, if you get the opportunity to pull off a full return rotation, great, but that's the exception.

 

Given Fury/Concentration's anti-cc passives, extra leap and the ability to Leap to Snipers gives Fury more mobility that the other two specs in PVP. But it is wise to be prepared for priority attack form combinations as optimal rotations can't be maintained reliably in PVP.

 

The following are "recommended" strats for the spec. These are not of my own making, I am simply sharing them as it's been asked for. I'm a Carnage user myself.

 

I'm sorry I can't share the pub name version, I only speak IMP. That said, I have not read Mero's Concentration Guide as I don't speak pub, so I have no idea how this may stand next to his. [/b] Certain differences may be the result of what follows being up to date as of 5.6. Which may be better I make no comment to, save only in that I respect Mero and I find the likelihood of some of the disparaging remarks made questionable. For the record while some have questioned his guide, I'm not one of them.

 

The recommended utility spread for PVP for Fury is [This isn't written in stone, and player style can certainly alter what may be best for a given individual, this is just a good base utility spread generally speaking for PVP -

 

Cloak of Carnage

Brazzen [which you want for any spec - this is a must have for PVP]

Subjugate [this is a must have as well not only for how it effects Ruthless Aggressor but because it let's you use Cloak of Pain while stunned]

Relentless [Must have all specs for PVP as a requisite for unbound in addition to it's other functions]

Defensive Roll [Must have for all specs]

Unbound [Must have for PVP - One might make the argument in Fury's case that it's not as important as Fury has some innate anti-cc passives as ability effects, but that doesn't cover you all of the time]

Phantom

Ruthless Aggressor

 

I personally don't agree with all of it, in particular Cloak of Carnage and Phantom. They are both very good, but I would say inexorable is a very good utility to have given all the CC that gets thrown around all the time, but, you could also argue that given Fury's extremely good rage reserves it may be of less value than to the other two specs. If one did take the view that they weren't all that concerned with Rage issues than putting one of the two recommended above is not a bad way to go. Player style will sort of make this a bit clearer in terms of choice.

 

Whether you are doing objective maps or Ranked will also effect utility priorities to some degree. There is some wiggle room here, although not much in my opinion.

 

Recommended Opener -

 

| Berserk + Force Charge

Raging Burst | Raging Burst + Adrenal (optional) [Not an option in PVP]

Force Crush | Force Crush

Furious Strike | Furious Strike

Ravage | Ravage

Obliterate | Obliterate

Battering Assault | Battering Assault

Dual Saber Throw or vicious slash or assault | Filler (Dual Saber Throw, Vicious Slash, Assault etc)

Raging Burst | Raging Burst

Force Scream | Force Scream

Furious Strike | Furious Strike

Dual Saber Throw or vicious slash or assault | Filler (Dual Saber Throw, Vicious Slash, Assault etc)

berserk + Obliterate | Berserk + Obliterate

Dual Saber Throw or vicious slash or assault | Filler (Dual Saber Throw, Vicious Slash, Assault etc).

 

How viable this is for PVP is another consideration. This is optimal, but we don't always have the time or the resources for Optimal. This is simply the recommended optimal opener.

 

You will never get agreement on any of this from everyone. People have their own revisions often, what works good for them even if it's not a standard.

 

Anytime someone says "You're doing it wrong" bare one thing in mind and ask yourself "Who's numbers are bigger, his or mine", if you are doing better with the "wrong" way than he is doing with "the right way", you're not doing wrong. I have not since 2.0 followed the "recommended" faithfully, I have always worked with re-visioned forms that work better for me.

 

Just because they can't make it work for them like you make it work for you doesn't mean a thing. Unless they consistently do better numbers than you in the same spec, they're wrong and you're right. If you find something works better, you use it. There is no wrong, only outcome.

 

People who 'follow' others never get there first. Revise at your own risk, but no pain no gain. Hope this helps some.

A guide with a perfectly acceptable opener (and an explanation of what to do after said opener, which the dulfy guide omits entirely) was literally the 2nd reply to the thread.

 

I'm choosing to help by pointing out that a public guide from a trusted website actually recommends a lot of things that you should not be doing. The chip on your shoulder may lead you to believe I'm somehow obligated to help in another manner, but I'm not.

 

Also, I am fairly certain the OP would not even read the openers I use and the accompanying wall of text I would need to put up in order to explain why and when they're used if I bothered to post it anyway.

 

The vulkk guide recommends using assault, lol, for carnage/anni & fury. It's for PvE primarily.

 

So really, you're just avoiding posting your ideas of a rotation. If you actually wanted to help instead of handwaving like I said, you'd actually post a few ideas instead of attacking merovejec for no real reason.

So really, you're just avoiding posting your ideas of a rotation. If you actually wanted to help instead of handwaving like I said, you'd actually post a few ideas instead of attacking merovejec for no real reason.

I mentioned the chip on your shoulder because the fact you think this was already obvious. I post an opener, you point out the issues with it because no opener is going to be perfect, and you feel this somehow makes my criticisms of his guide illegitimate because logic is hard. I genuinely do not care about arguing over what the "best" Fury opener is because the topic is loaded, debatable, and also highly overrated.

 

And, of course, beside the point. If you had any real rebuttal to my criticisms you'd go with those. But you don't so you're just trying to bait me into ad hominems.

 

attacking merovejec for no real reason.

I already addressed this in my last post but I'll do it a final time. I'm criticizing his guide because it's posted on a public site that has some prestige and where some people expect to get information that is actually accurate. Any dulfy guide filled with basic inaccuracies should be called out for them. And that's what I'm doing.

 

Before you make the same post a 3rd time with different wording, try to address my critiques of his guide rather than the author.

 

OH this all makes sense now. You're the guy whose awful math I called out in that juggernaut thread. Stay salty my friend.

Edited February 2, 2018 by yellow_

Anytime someone says "You're doing it wrong" bare one thing in mind and ask yourself "Who's numbers are bigger, his or mine", if you are doing better with the "wrong" way than he is doing with "the right way", you're not doing wrong. I have not since 2.0 followed the "recommended" faithfully, I have always worked with re-visioned forms that work better for me.

I agree with the sentiment but it only goes so far - some things are outside the realm of possibility. For example, delaying your furious strike autocrit for an early obliterate and wasting your destruction on a single target smash.

 

No really. That's what his guide says to do.

Edited February 2, 2018 by yellow_

Anytime someone says "You're doing it wrong" bare one thing in mind and ask yourself "Who's numbers are bigger, his or mine", if you are doing better with the "wrong" way than he is doing with "the right way", you're not doing wrong. I have not since 2.0 followed the "recommended" faithfully, I have always worked with re-visioned forms that work better for me.

 

Just because they can't make it work for them like you make it work for you doesn't mean a thing. Unless they consistently do better numbers than you in the same spec, they're wrong and you're right. If you find something works better, you use it. There is no wrong, only outcome.

 

People who 'follow' others never get there first. Revise at your own risk, but no pain no gain. Hope this helps some.

 

I have no idea what or how good the guide they're arguing over is, and never will because I don't mara but I agree with your principle 100%.

 

At the start of 5.0 when I was pissy dps got guard and I wanted to learn vigi I read a guide. I quickly learned the ideal rotation, etc wasn't working for me. I made it work for me (well, mostly any way, I don't pretend to be awesome at dps, but I can kill stuff provided I'm not being focused constantly).

 

There's more than one way to skin a cat after all.

tldr; nerf operatives.

So I played a long time ago (Before Rise of the Hutt Cartel) and I loved my Mara for PvP. However since returning recently, I find I'm struggling to even do any sort of adequate damage. I'm only Gear 233 (I think) but obviously there's the bolster to consider.

 

I just feel like I'm hitting people with a salmon fillet and Commando's/Gunslingers just refuse to let me do any damage to them at all.

 

I guess what I'm asking is whether Mara is viable, and how I can improve my DPS because quite frankly, the amount of damage I'm doing is depressing.

 

Ty in advance

Want Guidance ditch fury and go carnage for the better burst

Want Guidance ditch fury and go carnage for the better burst

 

That would be a singularly bad idea. Carnage no longer has better burst than Fury. Speaking solely math here and numbers, Fury is better in every single way.

 

That's not to say you can't do well with Carnage, I still use Carnage myself, but the facts are what they are whether you like them or not [and I don't like it].

 

Fury has -

 

* Better Burst

* Better Sustain

* Better Mobility

* Better resource management

* Better Uptime [due to a combinatin of anti-cc passives as well as an extra leap that can be used on anyone even Snipers]

* Some dot damage

* Very difficult to shut down

 

Prior to 5.6 I would have agreed. But Carnage has recieved more nerfs since 5.0 dropped than any other spec in the game.

 

Is it more reliable now? Yes. But it paid for that reliability with a sht ton of damage.

 

Put it this way. As Carnage stands right now. At it's best, it is as if you failed to get an attack in both the Beserk Ferocity Window and the non-Beserk ferocity window every single time. It lost two attacks from it's window when it should have only lost one in order to meet the conditions as was stated as the reason for nerfing it in 5.6 in the first place. This was in addition to the previous DPS nerf in 5.4 [i think it was 5.4, that or 5.3 I can't remember now]. It was the only spec to receive two consecutive DPS nerfs in a row.

 

Anyways yada yada yada. Fury's better. PVP's don't parse which means they have no idea what kind of DPS they are actually putting out live. You can count damage, but you can't count the DPS. Damage is a good indicator, the more the better, but if you are not seeing how the DPS is flowing live have no way knowing what anyone elses DPS is in comparision live. These nerfs and difference are much more apparent in PVE [Raiding] Because everyone is in Star Parse together and sees what's going on with everyone second to second live.

 

The highest parses for Carnage currently [just pure DPS] is 10.2k The Highest for Fury Is 10.8 and very slightly less for Annihilation as well. That's a 600 point DPS disparity. My personal high prior to the nerf was 10.7 [rounded].

 

Carnage has reliable mediocrity now. I did more damage even in PVP prior to 5.6 and the playstyle change than I do now, which makes perfect sense when you look at the brass nuts and bolts of it.

 

It terms of progression raiding, Carnage is now persona non-grata. No serious progression group would take a Carnage user rather Fury. All things being equal, Carnage will due notably worse than Fury. - There are some few exceptionally talented people who can make anything work, but they are exceptions.

 

I do well with Carnage in PVP, but not as good as I use to, The spec simply doesn't have the DPS it use to. They took from Carnage and gave to Fury. The Dot [bloody slashes] that Fury has? Carnage had that first and they took that and gave it to Fury in 5.0 as well.

 

Some people like the change, they find it less stressful and they like the more reliability, and hey, that's great for them. Far as I'm concerned, this isn't Carnage. Carnage was high risk/high reward, had the highest skill cap in the game. That was why Carnage mains loved it.

 

Now, alacrity is a DPS loss for Carnage, the fastest spec in the game that was known for high alacrity doesn't benefit it from beyond the base minimums. The "high alacrity" build that's all the rage now, that's a DPS loss for Carnage in PVE and PVP.

 

Numbers don't lie. No use pretending.

 

You can do very good with Carnage in PVP, but not as good as was possible prior to 5.6k. Some may find that there numbers are higher in PVP now than they were before 5.6. For those that's the case with, that essentially means they weren't playing Carnage to it's potential [optimally] than, which admittedly wasn't easy considering the 3 second window and the CC that gets thrown around. For those who were playing it closer to optimal levels, their numbers went down. So perhaps it is better for some players, but it's potential is far less now. For the people that like it better this way, more power to em. I'm happy for them. Least it wasn't a total washout heh.

 

There's a reason 75% of the Marauders in PVP are Fury and it's not because it does less damage than Carnage. Fury is the highest parsing spec in the game. Carnage paid the bill for that, but I'm still playing it myself.

I mentioned the chip on your shoulder because the fact you think this was already obvious. I post an opener, you point out the issues with it because no opener is going to be perfect, and you feel this somehow makes my criticisms of his guide illegitimate because logic is hard. I genuinely do not care about arguing over what the "best" Fury opener is because the topic is loaded, debatable, and also highly overrated.

 

And, of course, beside the point. If you had any real rebuttal to my criticisms you'd go with those. But you don't so you're just trying to bait me into ad hominems.

 

I already addressed this in my last post but I'll do it a final time. I'm criticizing his guide because it's posted on a public site that has some prestige and where some people expect to get information that is actually accurate. Any dulfy guide filled with basic inaccuracies should be called out for them. And that's what I'm doing.

 

Before you make the same post a 3rd time with different wording, try to address my critiques of his guide rather than the author.

 

OH this all makes sense now. You're the guy whose awful math I called out in that juggernaut thread. Stay salty my friend.

 

What I don't get is why you get so defensive when I talk about you posting an opener. Does it really hurt you to actually try to help?

 

But ok, enoughs enough you obviously won't.

 

 

OH this all makes sense now. You're the guy whose awful math I called out in that juggernaut thread. Stay salty my friend.

 

To be honest, I was actually really excited when you said my part of my math was wrong. I thought someone was about to make an effort to write a longer post than I did. That didn't happen though.

Edited February 3, 2018 by RACATW

What I don't get is why you get so defensive when I talk about you posting an opener. Does it really hurt you to actually try to help?

 

But ok, enoughs enough you obviously won't.

 

 

 

 

To be honest, I was actually really excited when you said my part of my math was wrong. I thought someone was about to make an effort to write a longer post than I did. That didn't happen though.

 

I dont think he even plays marauder to start with..

That would be a singularly bad idea. Carnage no longer has better burst than Fury. Speaking solely math here and numbers, Fury is better in every single way.

 

That's not to say you can't do well with Carnage, I still use Carnage myself, but the facts are what they are whether you like them or not [and I don't like it].

 

Fury has -

 

* Better Burst

* Better Sustain

* Better Mobility

* Better resource management

* Better Uptime [due to a combinatin of anti-cc passives as well as an extra leap that can be used on anyone even Snipers]

* Some dot damage

* Very difficult to shut down

 

Prior to 5.6 I would have agreed. But Carnage has recieved more nerfs since 5.0 dropped than any other spec in the game.

 

Is it more reliable now? Yes. But it paid for that reliability with a sht ton of damage.

 

Put it this way. As Carnage stands right now. At it's best, it is as if you failed to get an attack in both the Beserk Ferocity Window and the non-Beserk ferocity window every single time. It lost two attacks from it's window when it should have only lost one in order to meet the conditions as was stated as the reason for nerfing it in 5.6 in the first place. This was in addition to the previous DPS nerf in 5.4 [i think it was 5.4, that or 5.3 I can't remember now]. It was the only spec to receive two consecutive DPS nerfs in a row.

 

Anyways yada yada yada. Fury's better. PVP's don't parse which means they have no idea what kind of DPS they are actually putting out live. You can count damage, but you can't count the DPS. Damage is a good indicator, the more the better, but if you are not seeing how the DPS is flowing live have no way knowing what anyone elses DPS is in comparision live. These nerfs and difference are much more apparent in PVE [Raiding] Because everyone is in Star Parse together and sees what's going on with everyone second to second live.

 

The highest parses for Carnage currently [just pure DPS] is 10.2k The Highest for Fury Is 10.8 and very slightly less for Annihilation as well. That's a 600 point DPS disparity. My personal high prior to the nerf was 10.7 [rounded].

 

Carnage has reliable mediocrity now. I did more damage even in PVP prior to 5.6 and the playstyle change than I do now, which makes perfect sense when you look at the brass nuts and bolts of it.

 

It terms of progression raiding, Carnage is now persona non-grata. No serious progression group would take a Carnage user rather Fury. All things being equal, Carnage will due notably worse than Fury. - There are some few exceptionally talented people who can make anything work, but they are exceptions.

 

I do well with Carnage in PVP, but not as good as I use to, The spec simply doesn't have the DPS it use to. They took from Carnage and gave to Fury. The Dot [bloody slashes] that Fury has? Carnage had that first and they took that and gave it to Fury in 5.0 as well.

 

Some people like the change, they find it less stressful and they like the more reliability, and hey, that's great for them. Far as I'm concerned, this isn't Carnage. Carnage was high risk/high reward, had the highest skill cap in the game. That was why Carnage mains loved it.

 

Now, alacrity is a DPS loss for Carnage, the fastest spec in the game that was known for high alacrity doesn't benefit it from beyond the base minimums. The "high alacrity" build that's all the rage now, that's a DPS loss for Carnage in PVE and PVP.

 

Numbers don't lie. No use pretending.

 

You can do very good with Carnage in PVP, but not as good as was possible prior to 5.6k. Some may find that there numbers are higher in PVP now than they were before 5.6. For those that's the case with, that essentially means they weren't playing Carnage to it's potential [optimally] than, which admittedly wasn't easy considering the 3 second window and the CC that gets thrown around. For those who were playing it closer to optimal levels, their numbers went down. So perhaps it is better for some players, but it's potential is far less now. For the people that like it better this way, more power to em. I'm happy for them. Least it wasn't a total washout heh.

 

There's a reason 75% of the Marauders in PVP are Fury and it's not because it does less damage than Carnage. Fury is the highest parsing spec in the game. Carnage paid the bill for that, but I'm still playing it myself.

 

With all due respect to your well written posts, I think you are very biased...

 

Carnage was good before the nerf ? Well, I think that is very subjective.

 

Carnage had a massive handicap with that 3 seconds gap,. because if it god shot down, it was useless.

 

There weren't many carnage maras in ranked when 5.0 hit. Fury was still the preferred spec. So what you call a high risk/reward ability that only the "chosen ones" were able to use was in fact a massive handicap that they fixed now with this "nerf". Spec is much better now cause I don't depend on 3 seconds to do damage.

 

All they need to do is give it a little buff to the burst and it will be deadly. Prior to 5.6, it was great in regs, but not in serious PVP. I was a fan of carnage too after I decided to main a marauder. But soon I realized that depending on 3 seconds gap to be effective is not good for business when I can pick another spec that does proper damage all the time.

 

My 2 cents.. don't have to agree with me.

Edited February 3, 2018 by DavidAtkinson

snip

 

Carnage still has better burst than fury. Is fury better overall?

Sure it is,no doubt about that. Is the burst close between the two specs? Yes it is, closer than it was a few months ago. But still, carnage has better burst. Ferocity under berserk still does more damage than any fury rotation.

 

Hardswap comps in granked use carnage, not fury.

Carnage still has better burst than fury. Is fury better overall?

Sure it is,no doubt about that. Is the burst close between the two specs? Yes it is, closer than it was a few months ago. But still, carnage has better burst. Ferocity under berserk still does more damage than any fury rotation.

 

Hardswap comps in granked use carnage, not fury.

 

You may be right.. I am not sure.

 

I would like to play carnage again.. but I played fury for the last year for lik 90% of the time. My brain is heavily wired with fury and I cannot function properly with other spec.

 

I would give the small dot's to carfnage's ravage though,.

 

The irony is the only time you actually see "Force Scream" in use in the movies was when Old man Kenobi used it in a New Hope to scare the Sand People off.

 

 

Not to be picky, that was actually an imitation of a kryat dragon call. Not to get into the extended universe stuff so I won't give you the entire back story.

Carnage still has better burst than fury. Is fury better overall?

Sure it is,no doubt about that. Is the burst close between the two specs? Yes it is, closer than it was a few months ago. But still, carnage has better burst. Ferocity under berserk still does more damage than any fury rotation.

 

Hardswap comps in granked use carnage, not fury.

 

You're are technically right, but only in that specific sense. The Berserk window does, the non-berserk window doesn't. Numbers wise,overall , that meats out more burst damage over all than Carnage.