How exactly are the IG-86 droids going to even get on Revan's ship without being detected? We aren't exactly talking about the Ravanger here that only has a skeleton crew if that...

 

Revan's ship would have a full crew compliment, that means even in the midst of a battle, there would be the report of a hull breach, there are also certain key sections that would be under heavy guard such as the Engineering/Reactor Core and the bridge...

The IG-86's would obviously be detected. But they can work fast enough that it won't matter if Revan knows they're there. For example: going directly to the engines/core.

And you can argue that the engines and core would be guarded all you want, but I challenge you to come up with one sci-fy ship with a well defended engineering. It just doesn't happen. The added personel would make working in the space very difficult. And one stray blaster bolt could severly damage the ship. Having soldiers and Sith defend the ship and the fire-fight that would ensue would only ensure that the core/engines would be damaged. In Star Wars, most of the engineers are droids anyways, so there's no reason to even have real people down there.

The IG-86 droids would be fighting against elite troopers and a bunch of lightsaber wielding Sith... I don't think the sabotage scenario is plausible.

In the clip Wolfinajedi provided, you can see that they're more than capable of taking on Jedi, even the Choosen One and his padawan (hero characters, mind you). And the more the merrier. Grenades, smoke bombs, whatever, they'd be more than equipped to take on troops, for sure. They can obviously handle force-users as well. And note: the more damage they do, the more battles they get into, the better. It's Revan's ship, not theirs.

In order for the IG-86 droids to pull off a forced entry into the ship, they would have to go through the hanger or use an entry pod, a hull breach would be detected rather quickly and an explosive decompression would be stupid for an IG-86 droid cause everything that wasn't nailed down would be flying at them.

 

Finally, I thought the Leviathan sported unusually heavy armor, that would kinda put a dent in the tunneling into the starship routine.

There are plenty of ways to get into a ship, besides the hanger or a hull breach. I've already listed a few. But if you insist on hanger:

Let's say the IG-86s enter the hanger in the middle of a battle. Fighters are leaving and the IG's shuttle glides in stealthed. The IGs then exit the ship as it de-cloaks. Suddenly alarms go off and everything goes to chaos. Not only will Revan no longer be sending out fighters, but his hanger will be getting shot to bits. So the IGs split up. A number of them stay to defend the ship, some take the direct route to the bridge, and some go through the service elevators used by droids to get to the engine rooms. (For example, if anyone read the SWTOR book "Annihilation", Theron Shan does a smiliar thing to get to the bowels of the Ascendant Spear). Not only does the ship have intel and external problems to worry about, but the IGs sent to the bridge potencially slow Revan's escape* and the droids in the hanger draw most of the fire from soldiers and Sith throughout the ship.

Now the IGs heading (undetected) to the core/engines are free to do their work and blow up the ship in one big KABOOM!

*Revan using an escape pod....?

Excuse me, but how did this become a valid argument? Revan was confronted, during a space battle, by a half dozen JEDI and didn't flee. He stood on the bridge, hum-drum waiting for them to challenge him. If Revan did not run from Jedi, there is no WAY he would flee to the escape pods to avoid assassin droids. Like I said before, arguments that are not true to Revan's character can't be made because they would never happen.

Revan won't be fleeing his ship anytime soon.

Good point about the engine room Warren, however Revan could just have the entrance heavily guarded. However I don't think Revan would stay and fight. In the other situation he knew the Jedi would come for him, else they wouldn't have sent Jedi, and he knew they would attempt to capture him, because Jedi don't kill if they don't have to and always try and redeem. In this case however Revan would be confident that Xizor doesn't have anything powerful enough in his armada to confront him one on one. That also means he'll expect any attack launched by Xizor to be one of sabotage or assassination. So as soon as danger rears its ugly head, he's going to get out of there ASAP. And not necessarily in an escape pod, more likely in a private shuttle, just hop to another ship.

And they won't be coming through the hangar, the hangar will be sealed. But they can still come through the airlock, or alternatively - if they manage to draw Revan into a space battle, via boarding craft. This would give them an edge as they can infiltrate the ship from different angles and potentially cut off escape.

I think engaging Revan in a full on space battle could give Xizor an advantage. Not only does it make inflitration easier but it may discourage Revan from fleeing (exposing him to ship fire) immediately, and instead attempt to solve the threat (e.g. like when Anakin and Obi Wan boarded the Invisible Hand.) Or at least attack Revan if he tries to escape. But how would Xizor lure Revan into a space battle?

But how would Xizor lure Revan into a space battle?

A ploy? Have Revan's fleet intercept a false transmission, to which they go to specific coordinates and that is when Xizor's fleet moves into position? Infact actually, certain space conditions could also give an advantage Xizor could lead them into the Voidfire Nebula which would scramble ship systems and actually damage them, and they wouldn't be able to jump into hyperspace to escape. Now would they risk it? Probably not, though if the target were to be there I don't see why not.

Of course that would mean Xizor's ships too would be in the same boat, however its just an example. Main point is really sending a false transmission for Revan's command to intercept, and head right into an ambush.

But how would Xizor lure Revan into a space battle?

How indeed.. Maybe a gravity well generator combined with some deception.

Xizor can also whittle away Revan's forces by attacking supply convoys. This will force Revan to either deploy more military vessels to protect these convoys, or let them be raided and destroyed. Either choice will benefit Xizor, the second giving Xizor even more resources.

Xizor can also move people into Revan's shipyards by disguising them as engineers. These engineers can steal Revan's ships that are docked there and then destroy the shipyards. This will give Xizor an space advantage as Revan's fleets will be limited in numbers.

Xizor will also be decking out his forces in Black Market tech, making bioweapons, and purchasing ships to supplement his growing armada. Eventually, Xizor's shadow tactic can allow him to engage and win an all out war.

This relies on Xizor being invisible for the entire Kaggath, which will prove difficult if Revan gets his hands on one of the higher ups in the Black Sun (I have no idea what the chain of command is for the Black Sun).

A ploy? Have Revan's fleet intercept a false transmission, to which they go to specific coordinates and that is when Xizor's fleet moves into position? Infact actually, certain space conditions could also give an advantage Xizor could lead them into the Voidfire Nebula which would scramble ship systems and actually damage them, and they wouldn't be able to jump into hyperspace to escape. Now would they risk it? Probably not, though if the target were to be there I don't see why not.

 

Of course that would mean Xizor's ships too would be in the same boat, however its just an example. Main point is really sending a false transmission for Revan's command to intercept, and head right into an ambush.

I would use false information + an ambush in order to accomplish a perfect scenario. Use a gravity well to pull out the fleet in random space, nowhere near a planet. Then let the battle begin.

I don't think Revan would stay and fight. In the other situation he knew the Jedi would come for him, else they wouldn't have sent Jedi, and he knew they would attempt to capture him, because Jedi don't kill if they don't have to and always try and redeem. In this case however Revan would be confident that Xizor doesn't have anything powerful enough in his armada to confront him one on one.

I can say, with 100% certainty, that Revan did not stay on his ship to be confronted by Jedi so that he could be captured. That makes exactly zero sense. In fact, he thought, and probably rightfully so, that he could take the Jedi. So actually, Revan would be MORE LIKELY to stay on his crusier because he knows he can face whatever Xizor throws at him.

Gentlemen,

Allow me to weigh in on this most interesting debate. I would like to address several points here, the first of which is the matter of assassination.

Revan clearly understood the value of assassins, and used them to great effect against numerous targets during his military campaigns. He trained under Traya and was a master of applying precise force at the critical moment to tip the tides in his favor. He employed droids (such as HK-47), force users, and specially trained operatives to capture or kill both force users and other targets. So far, all the arguments have consisted of developing increasingly specific and desperate scenarios in which some assassins sent by Xizor MIGHT kill Revan. No one has addressed the obvious possibility of fanatical assassins trained and dispatched by Revan simply killing Xizor, or slaughtering his underlings and destroying his criminal syndicate.

This leads me to my second point. So far everyone has assumed that Xizor's syndicate is invincible and untouchable. This is highly unrealistic. So far, Black Sun has survived because it embedded itself in the political and economic structure of the galaxy. They, like all gangsters, hid behind the laws and technicalities of police jurisdiction while bribing or blackmailing any authorities who gave them trouble.

Revan, being a military mastermind and bold strategist, would not sit idly by and allow mere pirates to raid his convoys with impunity. He would target the infrastructure that sustained Black Sun. The spice, the smuggling, etc. would all fall under attack from his armada. Pirates worst fear is interdiction by an organized Navy. The best tactic for Revan would be to ignore Xizor, and instead keep him on the run and in hiding, constantly chased by fanatical assassins while Revan's military forces systematically destroyed every source of Black Sun revenue.

It would go something like this:

-Smugglers would be raided and killed without hesitation (Revan hardly cares about the legalities of search and seizure, and a handy guideline could be "If they're not our supplies, confiscate or destroy them")

-Warehouses, drugs, spice deposits, etc. would be either blasted from orbit or bulldozed in a ground campaign (The Sith are not noted for losing sleep over collateral damage or civilian casualties)

-Any attempt by Xizor to gather a massive fleet of pirates and other criminals of their ilk would draw the attention of Revan's fleets. Pirates aren't known for their operational security, and any force large enough to threaten Revan's armadas would certainly be noticed gathering. This would come down to a contest of deception and manouver, at which the TRAINED MILITARY ARMADA, led by one of the greatest tacticians to ever live, would probably have an edge over whatever eclectic gathering of mercenaries and pirates Xizor could drum up.

Sorry if this sounds really one-sided, but it kinda is. I'm just irritated that no one has addressed any offensive tactics for Revan other than "Dur, there's Xizor's base! Everyone, attack!". Seriously, the man won every war he ever got into, and has the fanatical devotion of his armada. Every other military in his day and age feared him (The Echani, the Mandos, the Republic, everyone.)

For every offensive tactic in Xizor's book (assassins, convoy raiding, sabotage, etc.) Revan has an equally powerful equivalent. Xizor might have the edge in illegal tech, but that would not make much difference large scale. And for every bioweapon his techs dream up, Revan's forces will simply be able to deploy conventional WMD's just as easily.

Lastly, Revan has the advantage in that all of his bases are military installations, well guarded and protected conventionally. Black Sun mostly relies on subterfuge and disguises to hide their bases. In order to carry out any kind of raids, they would have to come and go from these bases, allowing them to be tracked and discovered. From there, a conventional assault could clean up those pirate outposts or obliterate supply depots, leaving Black Sun in the uncomfortable position of slowly running out of money to pay their various goons.

Revan clearly understood the value of assassins, and used them to great effect against numerous targets during his military campaigns. He trained under Traya and was a master of applying precise force at the critical moment to tip the tides in his favor. He employed droids (such as HK-47), force users, and specially trained operatives to capture or kill both force users and other targets. So far, all the arguments have consisted of developing increasingly specific and desperate scenarios in which some assassins sent by Xizor MIGHT kill Revan. No one has addressed the obvious possibility of fanatical assassins trained and dispatched by Revan simply killing Xizor, or slaughtering his underlings and destroying his criminal syndicate.

1.) You say Revan assassination examples are " increasingly specific and desperate", but I fail to see how lacking details is a good thing when arguing assassinations. They are complicated and delicate things to carry out, so while it may seem like we're grasping for straws, we're really just making the scenario that much stronger.

2.) You say Xizor's assassins "MIGHT" kill Revan, but there is no garentee that Revan's will kill Xizor either. We're debating in hypotheticals, so saying the fact that something might happen makes it an invalid argument is wrong.

3.) No one has yet to put forward a successful assassination scenario for Xizor because of the fact that he can disappear. Revan is a leader on the front lines. Xizor is not. It is much harder to assassinate someone in hiding than someone out in the open. And it's a BIG galaxy.

This leads me to my second point. So far everyone has assumed that Xizor's syndicate is invincible and untouchable. This is highly unrealistic. So far, Black Sun has survived because it embedded itself in the political and economic structure of the galaxy. They, like all gangsters, hid behind the laws and technicalities of police jurisdiction while bribing or blackmailing any authorities who gave them trouble.

I think you fail to understand how underworld organizations work in Star Wars. The Black Sun is not a street gang to Revan's police. The Black Sun is a galactic power that have survived for thousands of years. I would encourage you to look at this post. The Black Sun is VERY powerful.

Revan, being a military mastermind and bold strategist, would not sit idly by and allow mere pirates to raid his convoys with impunity. He would target the infrastructure that sustained Black Sun. The spice, the smuggling, etc. would all fall under attack from his armada. Pirates worst fear is interdiction by an organized Navy. The best tactic for Revan would be to ignore Xizor, and instead keep him on the run and in hiding, constantly chased by fanatical assassins while Revan's military forces systematically destroyed every source of Black Sun revenue.

If Revan did feel like it was a good idea to attack the underworld directly and hurt all illegal business in the entire galaxy, that would only help Xizor. Now everyone who is anyone in the underworld will join him, including countless smugglers, bounty hunters, spice dealers, and other criminals that are now homeless after their organziations have disappeared.

And the galaxy's a big place. With lots of spice, smuggling, etc. And time is ticking for Revan as Xizor gathers his forces and sets his traps/assassins.

For every offensive tactic in Xizor's book (assassins, convoy raiding, sabotage, etc.) Revan has an equally powerful equivalent. Xizor might have the edge in illegal tech, but that would not make much difference large scale. And for every bioweapon his techs dream up, Revan's forces will simply be able to deploy conventional WMD's just as easily.

1.) Illegal tech does matter GREATLY, as you can see from the countless number of times we have pointed out how Xizor can use it. Not only will it aid his ships, but his armies and assassins.

2.) WMD's aren't allowed.

Lastly, Revan has the advantage in that all of his bases are military installations, well guarded and protected conventionally. Black Sun mostly relies on subterfuge and disguises to hide their bases. In order to carry out any kind of raids, they would have to come and go from these bases, allowing them to be tracked and discovered. From there, a conventional assault could clean up those pirate outposts or obliterate supply depots, leaving Black Sun in the uncomfortable position of slowly running out of money to pay their various goons.

1.) The Black Sun will not run out of credits. Like ever. Xizor has bottomless pockets.

2.) The Black Sun will be on Revan's worlds. They will be right under his nose. They will be everywhere. The thing is, underworld organizations are GOOD at staying hidden. Do you think, in the time before the Clone Wars, in the time before SWTOR, in the times of peace that the Republic has not tried to wipe out crime? It just doesn't happen. You can try, but crime exists in the presense of government. And Revan is no different. They'll thrive under him as they do under anyone else.

Gentlemen,

 

Allow me to weigh in on this most interesting debate. I would like to address several points here, the first of which is the matter of assassination.

 

Revan clearly understood the value of assassins, and used them to great effect against numerous targets during his military campaigns. He trained under Traya and was a master of applying precise force at the critical moment to tip the tides in his favor. He employed droids (such as HK-47), force users, and specially trained operatives to capture or kill both force users and other targets. So far, all the arguments have consisted of developing increasingly specific and desperate scenarios in which some assassins sent by Xizor MIGHT kill Revan. No one has addressed the obvious possibility of fanatical assassins trained and dispatched by Revan simply killing Xizor, or slaughtering his underlings and destroying his criminal syndicate.

Which is something I brought up earlier. However, given the nature of the Black Sun and the Dark Prince and all of the tools at his disposal, such a strategy is unlikely to happen

This leads me to my second point. So far everyone has assumed that Xizor's syndicate is invincible and untouchable. This is highly unrealistic. So far, Black Sun has survived because it embedded itself in the political and economic structure of the galaxy. They, like all gangsters, hid behind the laws and technicalities of police jurisdiction while bribing or blackmailing any authorities who gave them trouble.

Xizor's power and galactic influence was second only to the Emperor.

Revan, being a military mastermind and bold strategist, would not sit idly by and allow mere pirates to raid his convoys with impunity. He would target the infrastructure that sustained Black Sun. The spice, the smuggling, etc. would all fall under attack from his armada. Pirates worst fear is interdiction by an organized Navy. The best tactic for Revan would be to ignore Xizor, and instead keep him on the run and in hiding, constantly chased by fanatical assassins while Revan's military forces systematically destroyed every source of Black Sun revenue.

Over estimating Revan's tactical know-how, but okay. You are under the impression that the Black Sun is unorganized and just a simple crime syndicate. That is so wrong. The Black Sun is the largest crime syndicate in the galaxy. Under Prince Xizor, the Black Sun held a vast influence across the galaxy, rivaling the Galactic Empire (an Empire far superior to Revan's little Splinter Empire).

It would go something like this:

-Smugglers would be raided and killed without hesitation (Revan hardly cares about the legalities of search and seizure, and a handy guideline could be "If they're not our supplies, confiscate or destroy them")

Revan would have to devote a large chunk of his forces to rooting out the smugglers, which would only hurt his campaign.

-Warehouses, drugs, spice deposits, etc. would be either blasted from orbit or bulldozed in a ground campaign (The Sith are not noted for losing sleep over collateral damage or civilian casualties)

How long is it going to take for Revan to root out all of the Black Sun's warehouses and the like? He has to scour the galaxy for them. Literally. Even the most obscure locations hold Black Sun bases.

-Any attempt by Xizor to gather a massive fleet of pirates and other criminals of their ilk would draw the attention of Revan's fleets. Pirates aren't known for their operational security, and any force large enough to threaten Revan's armadas would certainly be noticed gathering. This would come down to a contest of deception and manouver, at which the TRAINED MILITARY ARMADA, led by one of the greatest tacticians to ever live, would probably have an edge over whatever eclectic gathering of mercenaries and pirates Xizor could drum up.

Xizor's intel network could leave Revan's forces in the dark while he gathered and beefed up his fleet (which is already well established) and ground forces with Black Market tech (disintegrators, Mass Drivers etc.)

Sorry if this sounds really one-sided, but it kinda is. I'm just irritated that no one has addressed any offensive tactics for Revan other than "Dur, there's Xizor's base! Everyone, attack!". Seriously, the man won every war he ever got into, and has the fanatical devotion of his armada. Every other military in his day and age feared him (The Echani, the Mandos, the Republic, everyone.)

Revan won the Mandalorian Wars due to superior numbers and the Jedi. He then led the Splinter Empire against a severely crippled Republic. Not exactly the creme de la creme. You should note that even Grand Admiral Thrawn (the greatest tactician to ever live) was overcome by unforeseen events. Xizor (and other shadowy-types) specializes in 'unforeseen' events.

For every offensive tactic in Xizor's book (assassins, convoy raiding, sabotage, etc.) Revan has an equally powerful equivalent. Xizor might have the edge in illegal tech, but that would not make much difference large scale. And for every bioweapon his techs dream up, Revan's forces will simply be able to deploy conventional WMD's just as easily.

Xizor gets bioweapons because he has used them. Has Revan used any bioweapons or WMDs?

Lastly, Revan has the advantage in that all of his bases are military installations, well guarded and protected conventionally. Black Sun mostly relies on subterfuge and disguises to hide their bases. In order to carry out any kind of raids, they would have to come and go from these bases, allowing them to be tracked and discovered. From there, a conventional assault could clean up those pirate outposts or obliterate supply depots, leaving Black Sun in the uncomfortable position of slowly running out of money to pay their various goons.

Again, you underestimate the Black Sun (something I did during the previous tri-battle). The Black Sun spans the galaxy. Xizor can move people into prime locations to remove Revan's assets. And he won't be running out of money.

And while Revan is going about this scenario, what do you think Xizor will be doing? He won't be sitting on his hands, that's for sure. He's going to bring the full force of the Black Market and the Black Sun to bear on Revan's Empire. If Revan tries to sweep away Xizor's powerbase (which he can't), Xizor will consolidate his forces (using his intel network to keep Revan blind to it) and outfit them with Black Market tech. He will make his capital ships superior to Revan's vessels, his fighters superior to Revan's fighters (which they were already, but this will be overkill), and make his soldiers superior to Revan's soldiers. His only issue will be the Dark Jedi, but that can be dealt with as well.

Also, Xizor will be infiltrating Revan's bases. Even if they are military installations, Xizor can get people in. Disguise some of his guys as engineers or maintenance crews, have them sneak in a bioweapon and set it off. There goes that base.

What's that? Revan catches on? OK, send in some astromechs to do the same thing. Xizor has options. And once he disappears from Revan's view, those options go up.

Basically, Revan has no options here. The only real option is for him to send out assassins right away to kill Xizor, but even that might not work as Xizor may just want to head out to his secret base on Mustafar (which is not known to Revan as it was not known to Traya or Kun in the previous battle).

And Warren, thanks for that one post on the Black Sun. I've been thinking of doing a thread series on organizations (to go along with cults Force based or otherwise), and the Black Sun would definitely be the first thread.

I can't contribute a lot to this debate since I don't know a lot about the Black Sun. But, since everyone likes scenarios with Revan being assassinated, I'd just like to point out that Revan's precognitive abilities work just fine, so he can since impending danger. (It's not necessary to go "Hey, there's droids on the ship that shouldn't be!" to get a feeling through the Force that there was imminent danger.)

So, at least in my opinion, it seems reasonable to me to assume that Revan would have some sense that a trap was imminent, or if an assassination attempt was underway. He wouldn't have lived long as a dark lord of the Sith otherwise. (And in case Malak's betrayal is brought up as a counterpoint, having played Kotor it seemed to be implied that it was a spur of the moment decision by Malak to betray Revan, and it was done while Revan was preoccupied by the Jedi. So assassination attempts during battle might be easier, but I wouldn't assume Revan will just walk his fleet into a trap for Xizor's convenience before that.)

(if any of this doesn't make sense let me know and I'll try to edit it later, posting at 1:30 AM after doing a bunch of homework, so I cannot guarantee it's 100% coherent)

I can't contribute a lot to this debate since I don't know a lot about the Black Sun. But, since everyone likes scenarios with Revan being assassinated, I'd just like to point out that Revan's precognitive abilities work just fine, so he can since impending danger. (It's not necessary to go "Hey, there's droids on the ship that shouldn't be!" to get a feeling through the Force that there was imminent danger.)

 

So, at least in my opinion, it seems reasonable to me to assume that Revan would have some sense that a trap was imminent, or if an assassination attempt was underway. He wouldn't have lived long as a dark lord of the Sith otherwise. (And in case Malak's betrayal is brought up as a counterpoint, having played Kotor it seemed to be implied that it was a spur of the moment decision by Malak to betray Revan, and it was done while Revan was preoccupied by the Jedi. So assassination attempts during battle might be easier, but I wouldn't assume Revan will just walk his fleet into a trap for Xizor's convenience before that.)

 

(if any of this doesn't make sense let me know and I'll try to edit it later, posting at 1:30 AM after doing a bunch of homework, so I cannot guarantee it's 100% coherent)

For me at least, it is very understandable. Your argument makes since, but that's why the best time for an assassination is during battle, as some scenarios have shown. Reven would be easier to kill, it would be theoretically easier to board the ship, and everyone on the ship would be in battle stations, and that makes stopping assassins a littler hard if you don't want your ship to take damage.

OK, so it seems support for Xizor is still going strong. So in favour of Revan:

First of all these claims that the Black Sun is 'second only to the Emperor and Vader'. If we really think about it, these claims are not that impressive. After the Galactic Empire was formed everything previously independent, the Banking Clan, the Trade Federation etc., were forcibly absorbed into the Empire. A magocratic, authoritarian dictatorship is not going to tolerate any 'prominent powers' existing in parallel with its imperial mightiness. In this sense everything legal was absorbed into the Empire and the Empire became effectively the only legal power in the galaxy, only the underworld survived. And as Black Sun is the most powerful syndicate in the underworld, they become the de facto second most powerful force in the galaxy. So really this statement bears no weight at all. All we can say is 'Black Sun is the most powerful crime syndicate in the galaxy'. Second to the Empire means nothing.

Oh and lets face it, the Black Sun never really rivalled the Empire in power. If Sidious had wanted to, he could have wiped the Black Sun out with a flick of his wrist (oh wait, he did didn't he ) Xizor only remained alive because he was in the Emperor's good grace, the same goes for his syndicate.

And lets not undermine Revan's Empire as a 'little splinter Empire' - at the height of his power he controlled a third of the known galaxy, as well as all of the largest shipyards and starforged weaponry, had the best military leaders, and had converted the majority of the Jedi Order to his cause. And waging a successful war against the Republic, broken or not, is an impressive feat.

Which leads me to my next point, Aurbere's argument about engineers. It simply wouldn't be that effective. Not only will there be few ships to steal (all of them will be shipped out to defend his Empire) but those that are will be half built. The shipyard will also be heavily defended, and destroying an entire shipyard (all his shipyards) with a handful of engineers is no mean feat. Shipyards are big and spread out, often formed of several stations, and not easy to destroy. And once one blows up, others will get wise and the sabotage efforts will be stopped. Let's also remember that if Xizor blows up all Revan's shipyards - he's just taken out half on the galaxy's ship production capabilities which is going to make it very difficult for Xizor to build a sizeable fleet.

And in few universes could Xizor build up a fleet large enough the rival Revan's. I mean Revan may not have the Star Forge now, but he did and it was pumping out massive amounts of ships. Combine that with the shipyards at Fondor, Duro, Rendilli, Coreilla and more, pumping out ships over a 3 year period, the ships Revan led into the Unknown Regions and the ships he captured from the Republic. How is Xizor going to match that in what, a few weeks, months? By raiding half empty shipyards? Well, there lies a problem - Revan controls many shipyards across the galaxy, which closes off production to Xizor, and Revan can feasibly attack other shipyards to prevent Xizor from building a fleet. That is feasible way Revan could attack Xizor's infrastructure, another way is destroying his Palace and resources on Coruscant. Another way is destroying the factories supplying Xizor with his tech e.g. Holowan Laboratories on Holowan, producers of the IG-86 assassin droid. Xizor will start finding it difficult to equip his armies with super tech, when Revan is burning those factories to the ground. And why stop there? Rumble the black markets too. Revan's land army is going to be sitting on its haunches, so dispatch them across the galaxy to burn down the biggest illegal marketplaces out there. For one it won't anger smugglers and bounty hunters, only the local populace (and what are they going to do) and those other crime syndicates who don't exist in the Kaggath.

Speaking of infrastructure. You guys make very good points that attacking Xizor's money earners could likely backfire, and wouldn't do much of a dent anyway - at least not in the short term. But attacking Black Sun directly could remove the problem of angering the underworld. For example, if Revan dispatches informants, assassins and bribers into the underworld, I'm sure he can turf up the locations of several Black Sun locations e.g. ask smugglers and bounty hunters, who are likely the people visiting these places. And then attack then with overwhelming force, Xizor may get wise to these attacks through his intelligence network, but likely not fast enough to react to overwhelming numbers. What's more, after escaping Coruscant, Xizor will be based at one of these locations. Sure Xizor might escape the first attack, but as more bases fall, he'll start running out of places to hide and in his hasty escapes start making mistakes.

And Aurbere, the 'governing body' of the Black Sun are the nine 'vigos' - Revan could plausibly capture one or several of these Vigos and used them to track Xizor.

And finally, concerning the 'trap'. Luring Revan into a space battle isn't actually that easy. Revan has a vast navy, and therefore will not be dealing with many, if any matters personally. Especially as he'll be anticipating a potential trap. So let's say Xizor feeds Revan false information of a fleet amassing an a certain location. Why would Revan go personally? He isn't a a brutish and foolhardy like Malak, with an eagerness for war and combat. He is cold and calculating and won't have any reason to rush into battle personally. More likely he dispatch a force under the command of some one else to eliminate them, masterminding his efforts from afar.

And Warren, in counter to your point, I'll remind you of what your conveniently excerpted from my quote. Revan's knows Xizor has nothing strong enough to tackle him one on one. So he'll be expecting an attack of assassination or sabotage. So as soon as anything (especially assassin droids) boards his ship, he'll expect assassination or sabotage. And the best way to counter such an attack, is to jump ship. And for the record, I wasn't implying that Revan was going to allow himself to be captured () just that Revan knew the Jedi would come straight for him and attempt to fight him - which is why he stayed because he knew he could win. In a nutshell when you get word that Jedi have boarded your ship, you think 'there here to capture me', when you get word that IG-86 droids have boarded your ship, you think 'there here to blow me up!' Malak would make the mistake of thinking they were here to kill him, but not Revan, he's smarter than that.

That's a lot of points for Revan, but hey, they needed that.

And finally, concerning the 'trap'. Luring Revan into a space battle isn't actually that easy. Revan has a vast navy, and therefore will not be dealing with many, if any matters personally. Especially as he'll be anticipating a potential trap. So let's say Xizor feeds Revan false information of a fleet amassing an a certain location. Why would Revan go personally? He isn't a a brutish and foolhardy like Malak, with an eagerness for war and combat. He is cold and calculating and won't have any reason to rush into battle personally. More likely he dispatch a force under the command of some one else to eliminate them, masterminding his efforts from afar.

This is what troubles me. So we have Xizor ambushing supplies correct? Is Black Sun still doing this? Anyway, Reven loses resources because of this. His army begins to lack and needs those resources. They attack and find no one ambushing conveys. Why? Intel network. Reven leaves those ships there to defend the ambushing point, and soon this is happening all across the galaxy- Reven is losing troops. Reven is furious at The Dark Prince. In his rage he begins to strike back. Xizor PURPOSELY loses some battles, then gives false information showing his ENTIRE ARMY AND HIMSELF converging on one point. Revn, now confident he can destroy Xizor, takes the bait. A decently large portion of Xizor's navy meets Revens, and then with a hammer and anvil tactic, the rest of Xizor's navy attacks. Reven realizes this, and adapts. But with gravity well generators and surprise, Reven is at a disadvantage.

Then the assassins.

I don't quite understand the rules of this game, having never played it. But it seems to me that there really isn't any contest between the two. If you read Shadows of the Empire, a rookie Luke Skywalker almost took down Black Sun single-handedly, granted this was largely because Xizor grossly underestimated him. But then again, Revan is no rookie, and imho is easily one of the top ten Jedi of all time, second in his time only to Vitiate. He likely could have walked right up to black sun headquarters (like luke did), stormed in and killed everyone by himself (remember in KOTOR, this was exactly what Revan did at the star forge, except he had to face Malak at the end and not a non-force user). It almost offends me that in these very forums of a game BASED ON Revan, that you would match him with a pathetic lizard-man that Vader could have crushed on a whim.

Anyway, all your talk of armies seems pointless, Revan could have bypassed all of that by simply going in alone, he could cloak himself with the force/use mind trick etc. to slip in and assassinate Xizor, very little Xizor could do to stop that. Don't forget Xizor lived in a time where the only known force-users was Vader and Sidious, so his security would have zero experience against a combatant as strong as Revan.

This is what troubles me. So we have Xizor ambushing supplies correct? Is Black Sun still doing this? Anyway, Reven loses resources because of this. His army begins to lack and needs those resources. They attack and find no one ambushing conveys. Why? Intel network. Reven leaves those ships there to defend the ambushing point, and soon this is happening all across the galaxy- Reven is losing troops. Reven is furious at The Dark Prince. In his rage he begins to strike back. Xizor PURPOSELY loses some battles, then gives false information showing his ENTIRE ARMY AND HIMSELF converging on one point. Revn, now confident he can destroy Xizor, takes the bait. A decently large portion of Xizor's navy meets Revens, and then with a hammer and anvil tactic, the rest of Xizor's navy attacks. Reven realizes this, and adapts. But with gravity well generators and surprise, Reven is at a disadvantage.

 

Then the assassins.

Let's also remember that if Revan is tearing up Xizor's powerbase, Xizor is going to start finding it difficult to muster sizeable fleets, especially as he has to fall back and defend his bases and hideouts.

And Warren, in counter to your point, I'll remind you of what your conveniently excerpted from my quote.

Well that's what I get for trying not to take up so much space.

Revan's knows Xizor has nothing strong enough to tackle him one on one. So he'll be expecting an attack of assassination or sabotage.

Wait, how does revan know that?

So as soon as anything (especially assassin droids) boards his ship, he'll expect assassination or sabotage. And the best way to counter such an attack, is to jump ship.

The Jedi were trying to (effectively) assassinate him too, and yet he stayed.

And for the record, I wasn't implying that Revan was going to allow himself to be captured () just that Revan knew the Jedi would come straight for him and attempt to fight him - which is why he stayed because he knew he could win.

Okay, he knew the Jedi would come and fight him and that he would win, so he stayed.

Why does he all of a sudden think "Oh, these ASSASSIN DROIDS definately won't come and try to attack me directly." If he does know that he's strong enough to take the assassin droids, he will not leave.

In a nutshell when you get word that Jedi have boarded your ship, you think 'there here to capture me', when you get word that IG-86 droids have boarded your ship, you think 'there here to blow me up!' Malak would make the mistake of thinking they were here to kill him, but not Revan, he's smarter than that.

Hold up.

IG-86 droids did not exist during Revan's time. These are new to him. And everything points to them being ASSASSIN DROIDS. Assassin droids take out the leader. Obviously they can be given other tasks, but if Revan hears an assassin droid is coming for him, I think he's going to draw his lightsaber and prepare to fight it, rather than flee.

In short, Revan will have no idea of the IG's plans, their abilities, or their limitations, and so will assume they are there to kill him 1v1, just like he did the Jedi.

Revan wasn't like, "Oh, Jedi that usually capture people, I bet they're gonna blow up the ship!"

Revan won't be like, "Oh, assassin droids that usually kill people, they're gonna blow up the ship!"

And even if he did, good luck getting out of there in time. IGs work fast.

And finally, concerning the 'trap'. Luring Revan into a space battle isn't actually that easy. Revan has a vast navy, and therefore will not be dealing with many, if any matters personally. Especially as he'll be anticipating a potential trap. So let's say Xizor feeds Revan false information of a fleet amassing an a certain location. Why would Revan go personally? He isn't a a brutish and foolhardy like Malak, with an eagerness for war and combat. He is cold and calculating and won't have any reason to rush into battle personally. More likely he dispatch a force under the command of some one else to eliminate them, masterminding his efforts from afar.

The reason Revan was defeated in space the first time was because he wanted to personally ensure that Bastila Shan and her battle meditation, the only things keeping the Republic fighting, were dealt with.

Similarly, Xizor could feed false information to Revan, making it look as if he the Dark Prince is in an area (using his personal ship as a decoy, etc.), which would draw Revan out to fight the "winning" battle himself. Right into Xizor's trap full of assassins, underworld tech, and countless pirate ships.

Also, Xizor is probably outmatched in space, sure. But remember, if Xizor's forces pour all their fire-power on Revan's flagship, it won't last long. The pirates only need to destroy one ship in that battle to win.

1.)

I think you fail to understand how underworld organizations work in Star Wars. The Black Sun is not a street gang to Revan's police. The Black Sun is a galactic power that have survived for thousands of years. I would encourage you to look at this post. The Black Sun is VERY powerful.

Of course Black Sun is not a street gang to Revan's police. They're an interplanetary gang to Revan's NAVY. The reason that during times of PEACE Black Sun thrived was because the Republic, or other peaceful authorities, cannot simply bombard factories, slaughter smugglers, and capture and torture every suspected member of Black Sun. Revan's forces can, and would.

The simple fact is, war is tremendously bad for business. Criminals thrive in civil society, where the law works to their advantage and protects them. Black Sun survived under Palpatine because the worked with him and proved more useful than troublesome. They were a parasite living off the galaxy, at the discretion of the Empire. Vader was not allowed to simply force choke Xizor to death because Palpatine was amused by their little rivalry, and kept Vader on a tight leash.

Now, to address the idea of Xizor's "fleets" and "armies" ambushing Revan, or raiding his convoys.

Firstly, where do these ships come from? The shipyards Revan controls? Fleets'R'Us? The fact of the matter is, Revan has an established Navy and the trained personnel to man his ships. Xizor does not. What Black Sun has are pirates, smugglers, and underworld transports... not capitol ships and armadas.

Even if Xizor purchased ships, where would their crews come from? Training military personnel takes time, time that Xizor doesn't have while Revan is smashing up his revenue sources and interrogating his underlings and Vigos. And even if Xizor's crews achieved a minimum level of expertise necessary to operate a military vessel in combat, where would the officers come from? Revan has plenty of battle hardened military commanders... Xizor does not. In any engagement, even assuming equal numbers of ships and men, Revan's troops are experienced and well led. Xizor's men have no military experience in open warfare, and are more accustomed to piracy.

As an aside, pirates have never proven successful against military convoys. The entire purpose of travelling in a convoy is to make it harder for raiders to pick off ships, and a protective escort means that any pirates would be attacking military warships before being able to reach vulnerable transports. Perhaps Aurbere and Warren-Stride are romantically envisioning Jack Sparrow and Will Turner swashbuckling their way through the spacelanes, but in reality pirates can't compete with trained military forces.

Pirates, and all criminals, are motivated by profit. They are there for the quick buck, and generally dislike extremely dangerous situations (like space battles) that are more likely to get them killed than paid. On the other hand, Revan's forces routinely were willing to fight against impossible odds to hold back the Mandalorians, and are devoted to him to the point of death. As soon as things start looking dangerous for the criminals, they're going to have second thoughts.

As Revan rolls up Xizor's infrastructure ruthlessly and efficiently with his fleets, the Vigos in Black Sun are going to start questioning if this war is worth it. Sure, they could fight to the bitter end and hurt Revan's forces, but in the end, they're probably going to die in an open fight. They'll start to wonder if it's worth supporting Xizor in his personal spat with the Dark Lord of the Sith, and realize that Xizor came to power in Black Sun by manipulating and killing his way to the top... what's to stop them from doing the same? When will any of them have another opportunity like this to stab their boss in the back and take all the wealth for themselves?

Fear has kept Black Sun in line so far, and the money rolling in from their illegal ventures. As the money starts to dry up (people don't pay for goods interdicted by Revan's fleets, or factories razed to the ground) and Xizor looks less like an invincible mob boss and more like a guy on the run from the Sith Armada, his underlings are going to start sharpening their daggers and waiting for a moment to pounce. After all, if Revan just wants Xizor's head... why not hand it to him and get in his good graces, letting them carry on business. Basically, exactly what Xizor did with Palpatine, make himself a valuable asset instead of an enemy, and in exchange Revan turns a blind eye to their business.

Additionally, Xizor is going to have to trade security for command. Revan will not be in hiding, he'll be expertly commanding his forces and coordinating attacks on Xizor's assets. If Xizor wants to disappear, and be safer from assassins, he'll trade off the direct control of his forces. Just like Osama Bin Laden going into hiding, Xizor would not be able to communicate as often with his forces. He would have to carefully conceal his location, and make only limited transmissions for fear that they would be intercepted. And unfortunately, the very few people who know his location are also in the position to benefit the most from his betrayal. Leadership requires visibility, otherwise someone else will fill the void in your organization. Revan will take his chances with some assassins, while Xizor runs and hides on Mustafar, slowly losing his grip on Black Sun.

It would be all too easy for one of Xizor's lieutenants, or one of the Vigos, to betray the location of Xizor's base to Revan, who would dispatch a force of Dark Jedi, deadly assassin droids, and trained killers to deal with the Dark Prince once and for all. It's the nature of criminal organizations.

In the end, Black Sun will continue, as it always has, by adapting and bending to accommodate the forces it can't fight. Xizor will die, and his replacement will ingratiate himself with Revan to ensure that Black Sun remains the most powerful crime syndicate in the galaxy.

OK, so it seems support for Xizor is still going strong. So in favour of Revan:

He's gone over to the Dark Side!

Seriously, I would prefer Revan winning this one, but he just can't play his game here.

First of all these claims that the Black Sun is 'second only to the Emperor and Vader'. If we really think about it, these claims are not that impressive. After the Galactic Empire was formed everything previously independent, the Banking Clan, the Trade Federation etc., were forcibly absorbed into the Empire. A magocratic, authoritarian dictatorship is not going to tolerate any 'prominent powers' existing in parallel with its imperial mightiness. In this sense everything legal was absorbed into the Empire and the Empire became effectively the only legal power in the galaxy, only the underworld survived. And as Black Sun is the most powerful syndicate in the underworld, they become the de facto second most powerful force in the galaxy. So really this statement bears no weight at all. All we can say is 'Black Sun is the most powerful crime syndicate in the galaxy'. Second to the Empire means nothing.

Good point, however, the Black Sun had spread all across the galaxy.

Oh and lets face it, the Black Sun never really rivalled the Empire in power. If Sidious had wanted to, he could have wiped the Black Sun out with a flick of his wrist (oh wait, he did didn't he ) Xizor only remained alive because he was in the Emperor's good grace, the same goes for his syndicate.

Perhaps, but then again, Revan isn't the Emperor, and his Empire isn't the Galactic Empire.

Which leads me to my next point, Aurbere's argument about engineers. It simply wouldn't be that effective. Not only will there be few ships to steal (all of them will be shipped out to defend his Empire) but those that are will be half built. The shipyard will also be heavily defended, and destroying an entire shipyard (all his shipyards) with a handful of engineers is no mean feat. Shipyards are big and spread out, often formed of several stations, and not easy to destroy. And once one blows up, others will get wise and the sabotage efforts will be stopped. Let's also remember that if Xizor blows up all Revan's shipyards - he's just taken out half on the galaxy's ship production capabilities which is going to make it very difficult for Xizor to build a sizeable fleet.

It actually is effective. Don't underestimate shadow tactics. They don't have to destroy the whole shipyard, they just need to decommission it. They can do this by detonating several explosives on critical junctures (if we are talking ring shipyards like Kuat and Mon Calamari), thereby shattering the shipyard.

And he doesn't have to use organic engineers. He can use service droids.

And in few universes could Xizor build up a fleet large enough the rival Revan's. I mean Revan may not have the Star Forge now, but he did and it was pumping out massive amounts of ships. Combine that with the shipyards at Fondor, Duro, Rendilli, Coreilla and more, pumping out ships over a 3 year period, the ships Revan led into the Unknown Regions and the ships he captured from the Republic. How is Xizor going to match that in what, a few weeks, months? By raiding half empty shipyards?

He could always contract Kuat Drive Yards to build some Star Destroyers (during Xizor's time they were able to build Imperial-class Star Destroyers quickly). He can also use his intel network to trick Revan into thinking Kuat wants to help him by building ships for his navy. Then Revan won't attack Kuat (an attack that would most likely fail as the shipyards had heavy defenses). This would also level the playing field in space.

Well, there lies a problem - Revan controls many shipyards across the galaxy, which closes off production to Xizor, and Revan can feasibly attack other shipyards to prevent Xizor from building a fleet. That is feasible way Revan could attack Xizor's infrastructure, another way is destroying his Palace and resources on Coruscant. Another way is destroying the factories supplying Xizor with his tech e.g. Holowan Laboratories on Holowan, producers of the IG-86 assassin droid. Xizor will start finding it difficult to equip his armies with super tech, when Revan is burning those factories to the ground.

The loss of the IG's would hurt, however, Xizor could buy droids on the Black Market. And attacking Coruscant isn't exactly that great of an idea. Revan's forces will take around four days to get there, giving Xizor plenty of time to pack up and leave for his hidden base on Mustafar.

And why stop there? Rumble the black markets too. Revan's land army is going to be sitting on its haunches, so dispatch them across the galaxy to burn down the biggest illegal marketplaces out there. For one it won't anger smugglers and bounty hunters, only the local populace (and what are they going to do) and those other crime syndicates who don't exist in the Kaggath.

That's going to take a long time. There's a Black Market on pretty much every planet, even the Death Star had a Black Market. Revan can't hit them all at once and trying to take them all out would take months. Xizor would use this time to plunder the Black Market on Coruscant and in the Core for all the tech he needs, and any other Black Markets that Revan doesn't get to will be plundered as well.

And I thought smugglers and bounty hunters did exist. I mean, they did in the G0-T0 vs. Revan vs. Grievous battle.

Speaking of infrastructure. You guys make very good points that attacking Xizor's money earners could likely backfire, and wouldn't do much of a dent anyway - at least not in the short term. But attacking Black Sun directly could remove the problem of angering the underworld. For example, if Revan dispatches informants, assassins and bribers into the underworld, I'm sure he can turf up the locations of several Black Sun locations e.g. ask smugglers and bounty hunters, who are likely the people visiting these places.

But you just said that Bounty Hunters and smugglers don't exist.

And Aurbere, the 'governing body' of the Black Sun are the nine 'vigos' - Revan could plausibly capture one or several of these Vigos and used them to track Xizor.

Interesting. But wouldn't that earn the Vigos a death mark? Isn't betraying the Black Sun a sin? It would take some convincing. Or Revan could just use Drain Knowledge (which he used on the Rakata) to rip what information he needs and then just go after Xizor from there. But how does he capture the Vigos?

That's a lot of points for Revan, but hey, they needed that.

Lots of points for Revan.

Like I said, I would rather see Revan win this one, but I don't see it. If Xizor can disappear, Revan's chances of finding him go way down.

Either way, I think I've made enough points. I'll leave this one to Warren (who has a better understanding of the Black Sun than I do). I'll pop in if anything needs correcting (factually).

Hmm, perhaps sabotage could work. But then again, unless Xizor does serious damage to Revan's fleets - he's not going to be needing reinforcements. And those shipyards can be repaired. As for Kuat, the cover would be blown when Kuat doesn't end of producing fleets for Revan and instead starts shipping out Star Destroyers to Xizor. Then its just a case of giving Xizor a taste of his own medicine and destroying them from the inside. Or do what the Sith Empire did in the Battle of Sluis Van - send in bombers and fighters to break the ring apart. No matter how well defended Kuat is, I doubt it could withstand a full invasion from Revan's Empire, an empire that has experience attacking and capturing shipyards. Or did what the Master did () capture the Kuat and Kuats and force him out of his deal with Xizor.

Or finally, blockade the planet, or the trade route leading out of it, and prevent any ships getting to Xizor.

And you make a good point about the Black Market, it would be difficult if not impossible to rumble them all. But he could burn down the major ones, and remember if he takes out the factories, the market will have nothing to sell. Even if Xizor plunders the lot, his tech will start to dry up pretty quick as Revan tears down the rest of his powerbase. Not to say he will, after all Xizor can't see the future, he won't expect an attack on factories he doesn't even own, he won't start plundering the black market until Revan attacks the factories, and by then it will be too late.

Oh and about smugglers and bounty hunters, you misread. What I said is smugglers and bounty hunters don't tend to use black markets that much, its mainly the local populace and the crime syndicates. But the crime syndicates don't exist in the Kaggath so that doesn't matter.

How does Revan find Vigos? Well every time Revan invades a Black Sun base, he's going to get more and more intel on their whereabouts and the locations of other bases, as well as the location of Xizor.

In response to an earlier argument that Xizor could use send people disguised as engineers to steal ships from Revan, it would be very difficult for this to succeed. First, it would take time to get the people in place, as arousing suspicion could end in early failure of the plan. This would also make it difficult for the group to obtain weapons to deal with onboard defenses on the ships. We can assume Xizor would try to steal completed warships, as it does him no good to obtain a half-completed ship that can't enter battle for some time. The Sith warships were prepared for attempts to steal them, being equipped with droids to help defend them (I did some searching on wikipedia for what Revan likely obtained from Czerka, since Aubere's Jedi Civil War thread mentions that Revan had an exclusive trade agreement with Czerka Corporation).

The droids were relatively simplistic, consisting mainly of http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mark_I_assault_droid and

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mark_IV_assault_droid . While they wouldn't be as advanced as IG-86 droids, the articles note that the droids were highly effective in their time at preventing Republic forces from capturing Sith warships, and both could be equipped with energy shields. This would allow the droids to be an effective counter to an attempt by Xizor to steal ships, and could help slow assassins that attempted to board a ship. This also means that ships left at shipyards would likely not be defenseless, as the droids normally assigned to defend the ship could be left onboard during repairs.

Because Revan received many of his supplies from Czerka, it would also take time for Xizor to significantly impact Revan's supply chains due to the amount of resources available. Czerka was a galaxy-spanning corporation with the capacity to carry out operations of its own, such as the slaving operation on Kashyyyk, and continue to operate after significant losses (failed investments on Tatooine, for example). It's unlikely Czerka would leave convoys undefended if suffering from pirate raids, or they could agree to give Revan more supplies in exchange for protection.

(I think that Czerka is an acceptable argument because it falls into the same category as the ubiquitous "black market" that's supplying Xizor everything. When it's accepted that targeting black market facilities could cause smugglers and the like to attack Revan's forces, then it seems acceptable that Czerka be allowed as well, as it is essentially a counterpart to the black market. This excerpt is only important if the "no outside factions" rule is brought up, as an attempt to counter it preemptively.)

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Revan was also known to preserve and take advantage of resources when possible. For example, it's equally likely that if he discovered the IG-86 factory, he would simply take it over and use it to produce assassin droids for himself as it is that he would destroy it outright. So if Xizor doesn't provide protection to the factories producing the IG-86 units, there's a very good chance that the IG-86 units would begin to turn up in Revan's forces.

Also, it isn't overly difficult for Revan to find the assassin droid factories. He simply needs to capture someone that knows the location and is willing to trade it for their life, or to obtain the memory core of an IG-86 droid if an assassination attempt fails (or if one of the droids is captured in another battle before the attempt to kill Revan. It's not logical that Xizor would use the droids only to target Revan, as Xizor is supposed to be resourceful, and therefore should see that he can employ the assassin droids for other tasks as well).

If Revan discovers the IG droids before the attempt to assassinate him, then it makes it far more difficult to use the droids to assassinate Revan (he will expect assassin droids), and gives Revan more assassins to use against Black Sun. Because Xizor's trap would take time to set up (he has to convince Revan that the trap is worthwhile, which means taking time to make Revan confident of victory or at least taking time to spread misinformation and make it more convincing.) Also, Revan is a skilled strategist and has the Force to sense impending danger, so it will take time to create a trap he won't foresee either logically or through the Force.

Why are we assuming that Revan will get information "Xizor will be here" and automatically assume "Xizor will be where the intel said"? Malak might go for it, but Revan is a little bit smarter than that

At this point, I am just kinda tired of it all(hence my little posting as of late), and Xizor and the Black Sun are some of my fav chars/organizations in SWU. Beni wondering, do you have anything else planned after this whole Kaggath thing is over?

This debate has been going on for a while, so I think I'll wrap things up soon. And yeah, I've got a whole load of stuff planned. Not just more Kaggath's either. Stay tuned.

Hmm...alright then looking forward to it.

Hmm, perhaps sabotage could work. But then again, unless Xizor does serious damage to Revan's fleets - he's not going to be needing reinforcements. And those shipyards can be repaired. As for Kuat, the cover would be blown when Kuat doesn't end of producing fleets for Revan and instead starts shipping out Star Destroyers to Xizor. Then its just a case of giving Xizor a taste of his own medicine and destroying them from the inside. Or do what the Sith Empire did in the Battle of Sluis Van - send in bombers and fighters to break the ring apart. No matter how well defended Kuat is, I doubt it could withstand a full invasion from Revan's Empire, an empire that has experience attacking and capturing shipyards.

I'm sure by then the playing field will be leveled out. A few Imperial-class Star Destroyers and Venators would give Xizor the edge in capital ship firepower, then combine that with the Black Market tech (notable Mass Drivers, but Xizor's devious mind could upgrade them with other tech).

Or did what the Master did () capture the Kuat and Kuats and force him out of his deal with Xizor.

And you make a good point about the Black Market, it would be difficult if not impossible to rumble them all. But he could burn down the major ones, and remember if he takes out the factories, the market will have nothing to sell. Even if Xizor plunders the lot, his tech will start to dry up pretty quick as Revan tears down the rest of his powerbase. Not to say he will, after all Xizor can't see the future, he won't expect an attack on factories he doesn't even own, he won't start plundering the black market until Revan attacks the factories, and by then it will be too late.

I think Xizor will be moving to get Black Market tech as soon as possible. Thanks to Random Dude telling him about Revan's Empire (), Xizor will want to get as many advantages as possible, and illegal tech is a huge advantage. There's a reason it's illegal lol.

Oh and about smugglers and bounty hunters, you misread. What I said is smugglers and bounty hunters don't tend to use black markets that much, its mainly the local populace and the crime syndicates. But the crime syndicates don't exist in the Kaggath so that doesn't matter.

Ah, I see.

How does Revan find Vigos? Well every time Revan invades a Black Sun base, he's going to get more and more intel on their whereabouts and the locations of other bases, as well as the location of Xizor.

But here's the question: can Revan get to Xizor before Xizor hits him with a deadly trap. Remember that even Thrawn was defeated by unforeseen events. Xizor's intel network can ensure that will happen.

(Of course Thrawn was going to win if it weren't for Rukh)

This debate has been going on for a while, so I think I'll wrap things up soon. And yeah, I've got a whole load of stuff planned. Not just more Kaggath's either. Stay tuned.

What kind of stuff? Personally, I've been thinking of starting my own versus series (not like others where it's completely unbalanced), but if you were planning on it, then I'll leave it to you.

I'm also looking forward to the second Kaggath tournament.