Devs said months ago that all DPS specs are intended to be within 5 percent of each other in PvE. This is clearly not the case. Parses and SimC data all show that Sentinels, Marauders, Snipers and Gunslingers parse at the top. The trooper and bounty hunter DPS specs are slightly behind. Shadows/Assasins can parse well with balance/madness spec but infiltration and deception are still far too low on PvE. DPS Sages/Sorcs are roughly 10 percent behind the top specs with Scoundrels not even in the same ballpark to the point that I've actually never seen a DPS Scoundrel in a raid.

 

This has been brought up repeatedly on the forums with no response whatsoever from the developers. There have been two major patches since parse data began showing these disparities with another on the PTS right now. Balance changes have been made for PvP, but there has been no effort to address the disparity between DPS specs in PvE. Is it still the developers' intent to have all DPS specs be within 5 percent of each other in PvE? If so, why aren't changes being made to address the fact that this is clearly not happening?

At this point I'm wondering if the devs are just using simulations instead of human players in order to determine dps output. What do we know about their metrics? Maybe computer controlled "classes" are over/under-performing compared to human players, making the devs think that they really are within 5% of each other?

 

That said, some classes just require more skill to get the right output. As someone with a dps scoundrel (yeah, laugh at me, I heal too) I can attest that there is very little room for error without dipping below ideal energy and taking a hit in dps because of it. Maybe their simulations don't account for these errors.

 

I agree they still need to address the gap though.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Stenrik

The problem stems from over use of metrics and spreadsheets, just because something should be doing something because math says so doesn't necessarily translate into actuality.

 

Its one of my bugbears, math and metrics has to be taken part and parcel with real time experience but active, seat of pants design seems to have been abandoned.

Devs said months ago that all DPS specs are intended to be within 5 percent of each other in PvE. This is clearly not the case. Parses and SimC data all show that Sentinels, Marauders, Snipers and Gunslingers parse at the top. The trooper and bounty hunter DPS specs are slightly behind. Shadows/Assasins can parse well with balance/madness spec but infiltration and deception are still far too low on PvE. DPS Sages/Sorcs are roughly 10 percent behind the top specs with Scoundrels not even in the same ballpark to the point that I've actually never seen a DPS Scoundrel in a raid.

 

This has been brought up repeatedly on the forums with no response whatsoever from the developers. There have been two major patches since parse data began showing these disparities with another on the PTS right now. Balance changes have been made for PvP, but there has been no effort to address the disparity between DPS specs in PvE. Is it still the developers' intent to have all DPS specs be within 5 percent of each other in PvE? If so, why aren't changes being made to address the fact that this is clearly not happening?

 

I'm infiltration, in and end-game guild and I parse with the big boys. It's not nearly as bad as you make it seem. What is your actual sample size of the lower dps specs? Are you just basing it on what you read on here?

Edited October 27, 2012 by Typeslice

My sample size is everyone posting their parses on Torparse and AskMrRobot, which is quite a lot. Go look at the ranked parses. Go look at the statistics on Torparse. The vast majority of the top DPS parses on ops bosses are from the same classes. And this isn't a personal QQ thread. My main is a Sage, and I can clear content just fine. I even have some parses on the ranked list on Torparse. But on the average, certain classes just parse better than others. A Marauder can roll his face across the keyboard and do better DPS than a Scoundrel. That's not right.

At this point I'm wondering if the devs are just using simulations instead of human players in order to determine dps output. What do we know about their metrics? Maybe computer controlled "classes" are over/under-performing compared to human players, making the devs think that they really are within 5% of each other?

 

That said, some classes just require more skill to get the right output. As someone with a dps scoundrel (yeah, laugh at me, I heal too) I can attest that there is very little room for error without dipping below ideal energy and taking a hit in dps because of it. Maybe their simulations don't account for these errors.

 

I agree they still need to address the gap though.

 

The problem is that the simulations show the same disparities. SimC outputs for Scoundrels are about 12 percent behind Snipers. It's generally agreed and supported by the parsing data that Sentinels and Marauders do the best DPS, and they weren't even plugged into the SimC results last I saw them. This isn't a theoretical question. SimC can plug in stats for best in slot gear for each class and then simulate the best rotations. You can easily see what the DPS potential for a spec is. The real-world parse data backs this up.

Edited October 27, 2012 by SoonerJBD

To be clear, I am not saying that certain DPS classes can't clear content. The issue is that those classes need better gear and/or better skill to put out the same DPS as other classes. When you are progression raiding, this is a serious issue.

 

The SimC data shows this very clearly. The difference between the top specs and the bottom specs is 10-12 percent. So if a DPS Scoundrel is putting out 1500 DPS, a Sentinel can put out 1680 DPS in the same gear and with the same skill level.

 

The devs have said the difference is supposed to be closer to 5 percent, which I think most people agree is acceptable. But 10-12 percent is not acceptable.

meh... idc what your numbers say, skill levels the playing field every time.

meh... idc what your numbers say, skill levels the playing field every time.

 

No, it doesn't. This game is based on math. A Sniper will put out 12 percent more DPS than a Scoundrel of the EXACT SAME skill and gear level. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why this is a problem.

No, it doesn't. This game is based on math. A Sniper will put out 12 percent more DPS than a Scoundrel of the EXACT SAME skill and gear level. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why this is a problem.

 

Put me next to that sniper in the same gear and lets see the disparity.

Put me next to that sniper in the same gear and lets see the disparity.

 

Do you know what SimC is or how it works? What you do is plug in your gear and program the ideal DPS rotation and it will run thousands of simulated fights and tell you how much DPS can possibly be done by that spec. When you plug best in slot gear and ideal rotation for various specs into SimC, the numbers show a 10-12 percent disparity between some DPS specs. Skill is not the issue. SimC takes skill out of the equation and the disparity is still there. And again, we are talking about PvE here, not PvP.

 

I know you are attempting to stroke your ego and portray yourself as the greatest MMO player to ever fire up a computer, but I honestly don't have time to feed your insecurity. Run along now. This is a serious discussion.

Edited October 27, 2012 by SoonerJBD

I would agree that Sorcs and Smugglers are on the bottom side of the DPS chain. This has been my experience as well. I generally have to level them 4 to 6 levels above content to keep pace with other DPS classes I play.

 

With Sorcs, for now I can forgive this because they are rather good healers and have good companion matches. Smugglers on the other hand are more problematic.

I'm a sorc and I'm always in the top 2 in wz's and consistanly rip Agro from tanks. So no complaints here.

I think a lot of people need to step back and look at their specs. That being said I can't speak for every class

And not everyone needs to l2p but a lot do.

I'm a sorc and I'm always in the top 2 in wz's and consistanly rip Agro from tanks. So no complaints here.

I think a lot of people need to step back and look at their specs. That being said I can't speak for every class

And not everyone needs to l2p but a lot do.

 

It's a fair point, but I have tried many different specs...I think the output is more reliant on gear for Sorcs and Smugs than other classes.

 

The difference is noticeable, though I will not say it is massive. Like I said, 4 to 6 levels above normal level takes care of the small difference when leveling.

Do you know what SimC is or how it works? What you do is plug in your gear and program the ideal DPS rotation and it will run thousands of simulated fights and tell you how much DPS can possibly be done by that spec. When you plug best in slot gear and ideal rotation for various specs into SimC, the numbers show a 10-12 percent disparity between some DPS specs. Skill is not the issue. SimC takes skill out of the equation and the disparity is still there. And again, we are talking about PvE here, not PvP.

 

I know you are attempting to stroke your ego and portray yourself as the greatest MMO player to ever fire up a computer, but I honestly don't have time to feed your insecurity. Run along now. This is a serious discussion.

 

 

Negative, I am not doing any such thing... I am also talking about PvE. I am merely saying that I do not buy into this statistical math dogma so many are immersed in. Boots on the ground will make a mockery of your statistics every time. Human intuition, on the spot decision making, the ability to diverge from a set plan (or "the best rotation" or whatever you would like to argue) to execute it in a different way regardless of the information given... not to mention SKILL. I know your math is accurate but it is irrelevant because there is not a single human consciousness behind any of your simulated toons or fights... they are simulations! Once you place humans into the equation you will see your numbers become very different.

Edited October 27, 2012 by RSLeMire

This is indeed a problem that needs to be addressed. It is really depressing to know that you mathematically can not outdps a Powertech, Marauder or Sniper as a Sorc. If the gap was smaller or ideally closed, skill would actually play a role, which currently it doesn't. It is very disappointing to have patch after patch with no balancing brought to the game. The term "flavour of the month" comes from the fact that every month there is a new class that is top DPS. Here we have "flavour of the half- year", which is not acceptable. Balancing is an ongoing process, that should happen consistently. I don't see the point in abandoning the classes at the same state for such a prolonged period of time. It only leads to frustration.

This isn't a question of math versus real-world experience. The SimC data shows the disparity. The thousands of parses uploaded to Torparse and AskMrRobot confirm the disparity. Both in theory and in practice, there is a gap between the DPS specs.

This isn't a question of math versus real-world experience. The SimC data shows the disparity. The thousands of parses uploaded to Torparse and AskMrRobot confirm the disparity. Both in theory and in practice, there is a gap between the DPS specs.

 

until you run the same tests with the same amount of humans as a control group I wont buy it.

Negative, I am not doing any such thing... I am also talking about PvE. I am merely saying that I do not buy into this statistical math dogma so many are immersed in. Boots on the ground will make a mockery of your statistics every time. Human intuition, on the spot decision making, the ability to diverge from a set plan (or "the best rotation" or whatever you would like to argue) to execute it in a different way regardless of the information given... not to mention SKILL. I know your math is accurate but it is irrelevant because there is not a single human consciousness behind any of your simulated toons or fights... they are simulations! Once you place humans into the equation you will see your numbers become very different.

 

The thing is we have both the theoretical data that shows the disparity and thousands of actual parses from actual boss fights that confirm it. Go look at the statistics on Torparse or AskMrRobot. Skill does play a role in DPS output, which is why you look at the averages. The average Sentinel or Sniper is putting out far more DPS than the average Scoundrel or Sorcerer. The top 50 parses for every boss fight are filled with Marauders and Sentinels. I don't remember seeing a single Scoundrel in the top DPS for any boss fight.

Anyone in this thread who ignores the math and says "I can pull great numbers so what's the problem?!?!?" simply doesn't get it.

 

If you put a Scrapper and a Watchmen side by side, give them equivalent skill (and all of its manifestations) and optimal rotations, the Scrapper will lag far behind. It is 100% irrelevent that you can personally make Scrapper work. It is 100% irrelevent that your Scrapper can out DPS a Watchmen.

 

It. Does. Not. Matter.

 

When you line up all the DPSers and give them equivalent skill and rotation there is a MASSIVE disparity between the high and the low. It's so bad that raiding guilds refuse particular specializations because of the low ceiling DPS they have (Infiltration, Scrapper, Sharpshooter come to mind). I know there are raiders who clear content with these classes, but it's far from optimal and there's a reason you can clear it (there are very heavy hitters in your raid group).

 

This DOES need to be addressed. The math and real experience dictates this. When you're in a good raiding guild you will see where the disparity is. Try as you'd like, no one is beating Slingers and Sentinels who know what they're doing in non-gimmicky raid fights. The differential is far above 5%.

 

It needs to be addressed.

Edited October 27, 2012 by Mavery

until you run the same tests with the same amount of humans as a control group I wont buy it.

 

I frankly don't care what you buy. The numbers are clear.

Damage numbers don't account for utility. Utilities and stats like; crowd control, debuffs, stealth, group buffs, armor rating, hitpoints & defenses don't get counted in damage parses but are an important part of class balance.

 

They could balance it for the math junkies by making every class exactly the same, but then SWTOR would be a MMOFPS.

Edited October 27, 2012 by MorgonKara

Damage numbers don't account for utility. Utilities and stats like; crowd control, debuffs, stealth, group buffs, armor rating, hitpoints & defenses don't get counted in damage parses but are an important part of class balance.

 

They could balance it for the math junkies by making every class exactly the same, but then SWTOR would be a MMOFPS.

 

this too

Damage numbers don't account for utility. Utilities and stats like; crowd control, debuffs, stealth, group buffs, armor rating, hitpoints & defenses don't get counted in damage parses but are an important part of class balance.

 

They could easily balance it for the math junkies by making every class exactly the same, but then SWTOR would be a MMOFPS.

 

This is nonsense. For one, it isn't math junkies calling for this disparity to be fixed. The developers of the game have stated that their intent is for the DPS classes to be within 5 percent of each other. That is all anyone is asking for. Utility is why a 5 percent difference is acceptable. But it does not make up for a gap of 10 percent or more.

 

Secondly, the highest DPS class in the game (Sentinels/Marauders) also has arguably the best utility in PvE. Inspiration/Bloodlust is absolutely a must for most boss fights. It is valued by most raiders far more than any other utility offered by other classes. In most cases, you want two Sentinels in the group so they can alternate Inspiration and maximize DPS for the group, especially in boss fights where there is a burn phase, like the battlewalker on EC HM Kephess.

 

Utility should give people a reason to bring a variety of classes along for a raid. And maybe it would if all the classes were indeed within 5 percent of each other. But that isn't the case.

Edited October 27, 2012 by SoonerJBD

LOL, the OP is actually complaining about Shadows and Assassins DPS?

 

Yikes

 

Sometimes I really gotta wonder how much of a alpha class "IWIN Design" players really want handed to them in this game.

 

If your coming in at bottom of damage charts playing ANY DPS build on assassin or shadow characters.

The problem is NOT the character design.

Its the player playing the classes.