Minimal is still greater than zero, but I suppose the difference is negligible.

 

I still prefer switching for the increased damage, since there are no benefits to avoiding the switch.

How does a shadow tank swap tanks? We have no leap which i think is a real problem. If vanguards can doit and Guardians can doit why not shadows? Dont say we got pull cause so do Vanguards..

There is no risk of a cleave. No one should be standing in between the tanks. Even if you didn't switch, they should be standing on the outside anyway because it is closer to where the shield generators spawn.

 

Your DPS will move when you see the different generator spawn sites, so positioning before that, ONE group will always have to 'run'.

As to 'noone' between the tanks.... standing on the outside of tanks puts you at >30m from the 'opposite' tank. This is bad for many reasons. Also, this will insure that all 4 healers will NOT be able to heal the entire Ops group all the time. Again, bad for many reasons, including if you go with 3 heals or new strats.

How does a shadow tank swap tanks? We have no leap which i think is a real problem. If vanguards can doit and Guardians can doit why not shadows? Dont say we got pull cause so do Vanguards..

Well my raid group has two assassin tanks (me being one of them). We just focus target swap and force speed + jump onto the other tank, then taunt.

Here's a little something most of you probably would never think about.

If the tank on Firebrand is an Assassin, he/she can use force cloak or whatever, dropping aggro completely. Leaving a DPS to pick up incinerate, then after it's done being cast, come out of stealth and tank as normal. We do this and it works out nicely.

Here's a little something most of you probably would never think about.

 

If the tank on Firebrand is an Assassin, he/she can use force cloak or whatever, dropping aggro completely. Leaving a DPS to pick up incinerate, then after it's done being cast, come out of stealth and tank as normal. We do this and it works out nicely.

I thought about it a long time ago. Seems pretty obvious to me. /shrug

One of my guild tanks tells me that as soon as Incinerate starts casting Firebrand can be taunted; it'll still hit the target it had at the start of the cast. I can't test it myself, since I don't raid tank.

You justify your strategy choice because it has higher threat generation and then admit threat is not an issue. Ummm... okay.

He was stating that it would increase threat generation, simple as that. His tanks or yours may not need that extra boost but I have been in PUGs where the tanks were very under-geared compared to the Ops and did lose threat on occasion. Sure they could taunt but maybe they are doing the DPS taunt swap and end up blowing both their taunts on accident.

Nothing is complicated about that but some of us (yourself not included obviously) know that 1/3 of the tanking classes in the game do not have a leap.

Yes, Shadow/Assassins don't have a leap, but Force Speed works fine. It isn't that hard just to pop it and run over to the other tank. If a player can't make a small jump with increased movement speed that's their issue.

Also, you seem to fail at simple addition. The global cooldown is 1.5 seconds and you described two abilities on the global cooldown. Last I checked 3 seconds is greater than "a fraction of a second".

If you get this worked up about a difference of opinions on equally effective strategies you may want to step back for a bit and relax. Try reading up on things and expanding your mind, like what is a figure of speech.

As to 'noone' between the tanks.... standing on the outside of tanks puts you at >30m from the 'opposite' tank. This is bad for many reasons. Also, this will insure that all 4 healers will NOT be able to heal the entire Ops group all the time. Again, bad for many reasons, including if you go with 3 heals or new strats.

Eh, the positioning of the group is just at the discretion of the Ops really. It works fine on the inside or outside of the tank. Sure, if the group is on the outside of the tank they can't be reached by every healer, but if you have four healers and split the groups evenly to start it shouldn't be an issue to heal at all. The only DPS that will be taking damage is the one kiting Stormcaller's arcs and Firebrand's missiles and any DPS with the DD debuff. The rest shouldn't be taking damage or not enough to cause a real healing issue, that includes the movement to and from the shields during Defensive/Offensive measures.

Eh, the positioning of the group is just at the discretion of the Ops really. It works fine on the inside or outside of the tank. Sure, if the group is on the outside of the tank they can't be reached by every healer, but if you have four healers and split the groups evenly to start it shouldn't be an issue to heal at all. The only DPS that will be taking damage is the one kiting Stormcaller's arcs and Firebrand's missiles and any DPS with the DD debuff. The rest shouldn't be taking damage or not enough to cause a real healing issue, that includes the movement to and from the shields during Defensive/Offensive measures.

First you say noone should be between the tanks. Now you say it works fine either way and is the discretion of the Ops group. Let me inform you that certain poisitionings will definitely NOT work. I won't go through all of them, but there are many. Also, There are only a few with distinct advantages over some that 'work' but suck. Things to remember:

1) The battletanks block LoS.

2) DD soakers will be taking 50-100% (or more) damage than your FB tank. This depends on soakers class and CD usage. So approx. 85% of the damage during the dps phases is on SC tank side. Enjoy splitting those healers 2/2.

3) FB's cleave reaches SC.

These are just a few of the issues you seem to ignore. Also, as was pointed out earlier, on 8 man you can do just about anything and it will work. On 8 with this fight, as long as you have 1200ish dps'ers, you can do whatever strat you want as long as you don't totally goof something up. DD won't kill a soaker. A tank can tank with incinerate. DD soakers can enter shield phase with debuff without a VERY high chance of dying. Nothing really hurts horribly. On 8, this all DPS fight, very little tank/heals. On 16 the focus changes. DPS requirement drops significantly (even if you bring 3 tanks). This becomes VERY much more a heals/tank centric fight AND... as a result of this... much more focused on positionings and what is most effective to keep damage minimal and allow for greatest healing coverage.

I really do encourage you to pull 16 man a few times. Ask Premonition if they'll let you into one of their raids for a night. I'm sure you'll "enjoy" the coordination differences. As a personal advocate of 8's (many reasons) I can appreciate that, from a tank/heals standpoint, this fight is less intense on 8. Like I said, if I had known the references were being made based on 8 man earlier, I would have asked why are you switching at all? In Rakata gear you could avoid swaps. So now in full Campaign + augments it should be TOTALLY unneccessary.

Also, what is so complicated about tab+taunt+leap? It requires no communication, and requires a fraction of a second to execute.

The global cooldown is 1.5 seconds and you described two abilities on the global cooldown. Last I checked 3 seconds is greater than "a fraction of a second".

For Vanguards at least, taunt is off the global cooldown. The total time for me to move from one hovertank to the other is less than a second (really, just the travel time of Storm plus time for my fingers to move to all the relevant buttons).

You justify your strategy choice because it has higher threat generation and then admit threat is not an issue. Ummm... okay.

It might be an issue for some. For example, we have some tanks who, for various reasons, haven't had the time to gear up as fast as the DPS running the Op with them.

Nothing is complicated about that but some of us (yourself not included obviously) know that 1/3 of the tanking classes in the game do not have a leap. Also, you seem to fail at simple addition. The global cooldown is 1.5 seconds and you described two abilities on the global cooldown. Last I checked 3 seconds is greater than "a fraction of a second".

And now you've lost all credibility. Taunts are off the global cooldown. Unless you think tab targeting triggers the cooldown? Also, shadows have force speed. Granted, it requires a bit more skill to jump on the tank than to use force leap, but if that's a big deal to you, then just use resilience or stealth like others have suggested.

By the way, you could have just said: "We only use PT/Jugg tanks and have never done 16-EC HM so tank swapping works better for us in 8-Ops when we can't rely on always having a DPS with a taunt." Tank swapping is a perfectly viable strategy in that situation. You would have seemed quite sensible and not unintelligent had you simply said that. Hindsight is 20/20 though.

Now you're just being elitist. No, my guild has not completed 16 man Hard Mode Explosive Conflict, because we do not have enough people with the gear and availability. This in no way invalidates anything I've said, and is no way a reflection of our skill. Again, all you can do is insult me, rather than explain why your method is superior.

As to 'noone' between the tanks.... standing on the outside of tanks puts you at >30m from the 'opposite' tank. This is bad for many reasons. Also, this will insure that all 4 healers will NOT be able to heal the entire Ops group all the time. Again, bad for many reasons, including if you go with 3 heals or new strats.

If one of your healers needs an assist, that's understandable. There is still little reason to worry about cleaves, since they don't cleave during or after incinerate armor anyway.

If one of your healers needs an assist, that's understandable. There is still little reason to worry about cleaves, since they don't cleave during or after incinerate armor anyway.

One of your healers doesn't need to 'assist'. It should only take PART of one healer to heal Firebrand. The other 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 of the healing should be on SC tank and DD soakers. That, or you're REALLY carrying healers. If you meant the other way, and you have one healer able to heal approx. 50k+ in DD soaks AND SC... in 14 seconds.. I have yet to see healers putting out 4-5k HPS for more than a fluke period. Doing this 5 times consistently throughout the fight would be impressive. If you have a sin or operative eating DDs, you're looking more like 40kish just on that one individual in 14 seconds. Plus another DD soaker. Plus the SCtank.

And re cleaves, you might want to use logs.

22:34:51.388 Firebrand Battle Tank's Incinerate Armor adds effect Incinerate Armor to Necrophiliac.

22:35:05.122 Firebrand Battle Tank's Missile Barrage glances Zith for 7299 energy damage, causing 7299 threat.

22:35:06.864 Firebrand Battle Tank's Incinerate Armor effect of Incinerate Armor fades from Necrophiliac.

That's from a lower DPS week. The only way a Cleave doesn't happen is if you not only turn inside of 1 DD, but also inside of one Incinerate. Incinerate/Mbarrage timing works that the final hit on EVERY IA is designed to be a Mbarrage. A cleave. During Incinerate. For groups getting 2 DDs at times, you will always see this. For weeks when we stack dps, we don't see any of these combos. And that's not even getting to my point, that depending on positiioning, the FBtank can get the SCmelee cleaved... or they get themselves cleaved.

First you say noone should be between the tanks. Now you say it works fine either way and is the discretion of the Ops group. Let me inform you that certain poisitionings will definitely NOT work. I won't go through all of them, but there are many. Also, There are only a few with distinct advantages over some that 'work' but suck. Things to remember:

 

1) The battletanks block LoS.

2) DD soakers will be taking 50-100% (or more) damage than your FB tank. This depends on soakers class and CD usage. So approx. 85% of the damage during the dps phases is on SC tank side. Enjoy splitting those healers 2/2.

3) FB's cleave reaches SC.

 

These are just a few of the issues you seem to ignore. Also, as was pointed out earlier, on 8 man you can do just about anything and it will work. On 8 with this fight, as long as you have 1200ish dps'ers, you can do whatever strat you want as long as you don't totally goof something up. DD won't kill a soaker. A tank can tank with incinerate. DD soakers can enter shield phase with debuff without a VERY high chance of dying. Nothing really hurts horribly. On 8, this all DPS fight, very little tank/heals. On 16 the focus changes. DPS requirement drops significantly (even if you bring 3 tanks). This becomes VERY much more a heals/tank centric fight AND... as a result of this... much more focused on positionings and what is most effective to keep damage minimal and allow for greatest healing coverage.

 

I really do encourage you to pull 16 man a few times. Ask Premonition if they'll let you into one of their raids for a night. I'm sure you'll "enjoy" the coordination differences. As a personal advocate of 8's (many reasons) I can appreciate that, from a tank/heals standpoint, this fight is less intense on 8. Like I said, if I had known the references were being made based on 8 man earlier, I would have asked why are you switching at all? In Rakata gear you could avoid swaps. So now in full Campaign + augments it should be TOTALLY unneccessary.

When did I say no one should be between the tanks or that having groups on the outside is a superior strategy? If you're implying that BlastingGravy and I are the same person you are incorrect. There is no conspiracy theory in motion here to prove anyone wrong or gang up on someone.

As for your things to remember that I have ignored...

1) True, but this should be non-issue. If DPS is lacking on one of the tanks it is easy to send one or two people over (depending on Ops size) to help on the other tank. If a ranged DPS wants to help, and stay out of any possible cleaves, they can just stand on the inside middle or middle back and be fine. Melee DPS can just Force Speed/Leap on over unless it is an Scoundrel/Operative or Vanguard/Powertech DPS, of course.

2) Yes DD hits hard, but having one Sage/Sorc healer on Stormcaller makes healing through that a lot easier. In Sage terms, Rejuvenate > Salvation > Force Armor and those DPS should be perfectly fine with a few maintenance heals. Plus it only targets a handful of the Ops, it isn't like everyone on Stormcaller is taking DD.

3) So? If the tanks are facing FB and SC forward no one should be in the cleave. Taunting and leaping during IA still renders no danger of an immediate cleave. It isn't until a few moments after IA should a cleave from either tank appear. This is more than enough time for a tank to get into position even if it is a Shadow/Assassin tank.

You are correct that the most dangerous point of this fight is the DD soakers going into Defensive/Offensive systems with the DD debuff. Even running 16 SM EC it is evident that DPS is a non-issue and that tanking/healing takes the forefront on greatest concern.

The references to which form of EC we were talking about was never specified. Our guild tends to run 8 mans mostly so we're just used to speaking in those terms. We have done a 16 SM EC but I'm sure that still pales in comparison to 16 HM EC. If anything I just stated seems a bit off it's because I'm speaking on experience from 8 man HM EC and 16 SM EC.

One of your healers doesn't need to 'assist'. It should only take PART of one healer to heal Firebrand. The other 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 of the healing should be on SC tank and DD soakers. That, or you're REALLY carrying healers. If you meant the other way, and you have one healer able to heal approx. 50k+ in DD soaks AND SC... in 14 seconds.. I have yet to see healers putting out 4-5k HPS for more than a fluke period. Doing this 5 times consistently throughout the fight would be impressive. If you have a sin or operative eating DDs, you're looking more like 40kish just on that one individual in 14 seconds. Plus another DD soaker. Plus the SCtank.

Point taken, the FB tank needs far less attention than the SC tank and DPS. From experience I can vouch that it is more difficult to solo heal SC even with Salvation and Force Armor because SC's cleaves do a ton of damage to the tank. When the tank gets one of these cleaves while DD is active on the DPS it does make keeping all the players at appropriate health levels a bit more challenging. Without help I can still keep the DPS above 80% health and the tank above 65% when DD soakers are taking damage, but a little help on just healing the tank alone goes a long way. Those FB healers get bored anyway, put them to work!

That's from a lower DPS week. The only way a Cleave doesn't happen is if you not only turn inside of 1 DD, but also inside of one Incinerate. Incinerate/Mbarrage timing works that the final hit on EVERY IA is designed to be a Mbarrage. A cleave. During Incinerate. For groups getting 2 DDs at times, you will always see this. For weeks when we stack dps, we don't see any of these combos. And that's not even getting to my point, that depending on positiioning, the FBtank can get the SCmelee cleaved... or they get themselves cleaved.

Again, speaking from an 8 man point of view, I never have any issues with the cleaves. The only time a DPS takes one is when a Sentinel accidentally leaps in front of it. I can't speak for 16 mans as my experience there is limited.

2) Yes DD hits hard, but having one Sage/Sorc healer on Stormcaller makes healing through that a lot easier. In Sage terms, Rejuvenate > Salvation > Force Armor and those DPS should be perfectly fine with a few maintenance heals. Plus it only targets a handful of the Ops, it isn't like everyone on Stormcaller is taking DD.

This statement is why the 16 vs 8 man strategy difference comes up. I have healed both 8 and 16 hard mode of this fight. In 8 man, if I put a Force Armor on a double destruction target... that's all they need to survive the DD. The healing is pretty straightforward and I'm sure your strategy works just fine for that. The even split makes sense because there's not THAT much of a healing strain on 8 man.

However, on 16 man, my typical "assignment" is to heal on Firebrand as a "swing healer." I heal the Firebrand tank(s), the people on the ground when they take a tick of the shields, and cover the Stormcaller tank & DD's. During double destruction we really don't heal the Firebrand tank at all. If he dips down to like 30% I MIGHT toss a heal his way. The person you were replying to was completely correct about probably 85% of the dmg during a DD being on the Stormcaller side.

I'm sure you can understand that with 4 healers and 85% healing needed on 1 side, it would be REALLY silly to block 2 healers from being able to reach or LoS those in need of heals. If you tried to fix it by putting 3 healers on Stormcaller & 1 on Firebrand, then you'd have a healer who was almost always late to a shield and might die from the aoe. Altogether, it's a really subpar plan for 16 man. I'm sure there are guilds out there that do it that way on 16 man, but it takes a lot more effort than it should.

Hopefully this makes it a little clearer and we can all agree to say "strategies vary widely in their efficacy between 8 & 16 man."

And re cleaves, you might want to use logs.

 

22:34:51.388 Firebrand Battle Tank's Incinerate Armor adds effect Incinerate Armor to Necrophiliac.

22:35:05.122 Firebrand Battle Tank's Missile Barrage glances Zith for 7299 energy damage, causing 7299 threat.

22:35:06.864 Firebrand Battle Tank's Incinerate Armor effect of Incinerate Armor fades from Necrophiliac.

According to this log, Firebrand's Missile Barrage hits approximately 16 seconds after incinerate armor is applied. You really think it takes over 16 seconds to switch? I'm typically completely done positioning myself before incinerate armor is even done casting! You just shot yourself in the foot, my friend.

This statement is why the 16 vs 8 man strategy difference comes up. I have healed both 8 and 16 hard mode of this fight. In 8 man, if I put a Force Armor on a double destruction target... that's all they need to survive the DD. The healing is pretty straightforward and I'm sure your strategy works just fine for that. The even split makes sense because there's not THAT much of a healing strain on 8 man.

 

However, on 16 man, my typical "assignment" is to heal on Firebrand as a "swing healer." I heal the Firebrand tank(s), the people on the ground when they take a tick of the shields, and cover the Stormcaller tank & DD's. During double destruction we really don't heal the Firebrand tank at all. If he dips down to like 30% I MIGHT toss a heal his way. The person you were replying to was completely correct about probably 85% of the dmg during a DD being on the Stormcaller side.

 

I'm sure you can understand that with 4 healers and 85% healing needed on 1 side, it would be REALLY silly to block 2 healers from being able to reach or LoS those in need of heals. If you tried to fix it by putting 3 healers on Stormcaller & 1 on Firebrand, then you'd have a healer who was almost always late to a shield and might die from the aoe. Altogether, it's a really subpar plan for 16 man. I'm sure there are guilds out there that do it that way on 16 man, but it takes a lot more effort than it should.

 

Hopefully this makes it a little clearer and we can all agree to say "strategies vary widely in their efficacy between 8 & 16 man."

Thanks for the clarification! That helps a ton. Like I said, I have only done the 16 SM EC and I don't recall any difficult healing situations, but I'm sure that's very different in 16 HM.

This thread is full of unnecessary crankiness.

Guilty as charged.

What I see as shadow tank there is few ways to do this first deflection lasts until incinerate armor is over and sceond have gunslinger/sniper on aboard of firebrand made make him cast scrambling field so you would be on area of it while your deflection is on cd. You take sure more dmg dmg than but still its basicly 1/2 dmg least as on point of shadow/assassin tanks we hardly get more than 40% armor reduce with denova/BH gear.

And Scrambling field gives 20% dmg reduction.

That's dangerous if not timed properly. Much better to control who he is going to turn to.

On 8 man (since this has become relevant in this thread since last I saw it) I've never seen it as an issue. The DPS on that side are putting out way more threat than the healer so you know he's going to turn to one of the DPS, and he's not going to DO anything but cast incinerate armor. The tank can even come back out and retaunt once the cast starts and he'll turn back immediately to the tank without hurting anyone. Have literally never had an issue with it before.