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Nerf Annihilation Marauder


BETLIFE

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  • 1 month later...
Because he got his butt kicked in PVP, so of course it has to be because the class is OP, not that he has to learn how to fight them.

 

Annihilation in PvP kicking butt? It's not even a burst spec but sustained DPS lol.

Edited by Lil_Fusion
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Annihilation in PvP kicking butt? It's not even a burst spec but sustained DPS lol.

 

I know right? op has to be either trolling or has never tried to play one. Theres no comparison between for example a rage Jug or an apt and an anni mara. If the OP is serious in his opinion I would suggest to him that he would profit this weekend from making an anni mara and a rage jug, level them up abit and then try playing them.

 

He will see its a night and day difference and NOT in the anni's favour.

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In a PVE point of view, I kinda agree with the OP. I mean, anni is clearly an outlier for the moment and need to be brought back in line. I'm not calling for huge nerfs that destroy the class, just a little something so that it's not miles away from the other.

I won't talk about PVP since I've never play a sent nor a mara in PVP.

Edited by LudhaninRolgge
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But Anni has terrible burst and target swapping ability, and mediocre AOE capability for the most part. It's the top spec for a reason- it's hard to master, and hard to play in a dynamic environment. Even if a nerf is required (and I'm not saying it is), surely Carnage should be the one brought down slightly in terms of sustained DPS instead of Anni. A small nerf to Arsenal (one of the easiest classes to play) would also not be unwarranted.
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In a PVE point of view, I kinda agree with the OP. I mean, anni is clearly an outlier for the moment and need to be brought back in line. I'm not calling for huge nerfs that destroy the class, just a little something so that it's not miles away from the other.

I won't talk about PVP since I've never play a sent nor a mara in PVP.

Honestly I disagree with this statement. While anni could maybe use a small nerf, I believe other melee dot specs need a buff. While anni (and to a lesser degree, lethality) is in a good place for single target damage, pyro, hatred, and vengeance are all lacking in single target sustained damage. Additionally, there is an imbalance with burst specs, especially arsenal, doing more sustained damage than dot specs. The solution, imo, is to buff melee sustained classes to be closer to anni's level and to nerf outlier burst yet high sustained specs such as arsenal and perhaps carnage as well.

Edited by AndoEyrune
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Honestly I disagree with this statement. While anni could maybe use a small nerf, I believe other melee dot specs need a buff. While anni (and to a lesser degree, lethality) is in a good place for single target damage, pyro, hatred, and vengeance are all lacking in single target sustained damage. Additionally, there is an imbalance with burst specs, especially arsenal, doing more sustained damage than dot specs. The solution, imo, is to buff melee sustained classes to be closer to anni's level and to nerf outlier burst yet high sustained specs such as arsenal and perhaps carnage as well.

 

Anni is perhaps one of the most fragile rotations, the moment it gets out of sync due to a loss of uptime you lose a lot of dps getting it back in sync or even more if you just yolo onwards. Other melee dot specs don't suffer from this as much. So despite how far ahead anni is on dummy parses, the raid performance is less dominant. If you buffed other melee dot specs to anni levels, they would be grossly overpowered since they don't suffer from this issue anywhere near as much as anni. That being said, if anni design stays as is, then i believe it needs a very small nerf but should also probably be ahead of the other melee dot specs. I think some melee dot specs could use a small buff.

 

I also think carnage is one of the most broken specs right now. It has; 2nd highest sustained damage (behind anni), 2nd highest burst (behind AP), probably the best or 2nd best aoe. (hard to compare due the nature of aoe over a long period vs aoe burst, since aoe burst is typically all that's relevant in raids). This spec is more in need of a nerf than anni right now.

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Yup, agree with that.

Other melee-sustained need a little buff and carnage need a nerf. to powerful in pve as a burst-spec.

 

But the anni-rotation isn't that complicated anymore. In my opinion it is very forgiving now, but that is only my impression.

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But Anni has terrible burst and target swapping ability, and mediocre AOE capability for the most part. It's the top spec for a reason- it's hard to master, and hard to play in a dynamic environment. Even if a nerf is required (and I'm not saying it is)

 

I get that, but for the moment, even if I think it should stay top DPS, it's just too far away from the rest. I mean, the class is 3% better than the second one, that's 200 DPS the same difference as between 2nd and 8th. The Devs stated they wanted every specs within 5%, that's not even close.

 

surely Carnage should be the one brought down slightly in terms of sustained DPS instead of Anni.

 

Yes, Carnage should be brought in line too, but that's the matter of a whole new discussion ^^

 

A small nerf to Arsenal (one of the easiest classes to play) would also not be unwarranted.

 

If only they could remove their 30% bonus to surge passive on certain abilities, that would only be fair.

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Anni is perhaps one of the most fragile rotations, the moment it gets out of sync due to a loss of uptime you lose a lot of dps getting it back in sync or even more if you just yolo onwards..

 

Basically this yes there are some huge dps numbers from it on a dummy but if you look at the uploaded logs for bosses its very rarely at the top and is usually behind carnage. As soon as you have any downtime your dps drops markedly.

 

Anyway I would hope Bioware balance classes on how they do in actual fights not on what they can do on a dummy, as that is a much more realistic measure in my book.

Edited by WheresMyWhisky
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  • 2 weeks later...
Basically this yes there are some huge dps numbers from it on a dummy but if you look at the uploaded logs for bosses its very rarely at the top and is usually behind carnage. As soon as you have any downtime your dps drops markedly.

It's funny how people talk about anni rotation being hard and fragile while I almost never can do better in carnage than I can in anni, back in 3.0 times I had 400-500 dps advantage in anni on lurker as compared to carnage and it's believed to be a burst fight. So rotation being difficult? Not THAT much.

 

Fragile though... Oh yes. When I learned spec anew in 4.0 apparently I was lacking some major chunk of dps on parses, and insane parses come out when everything aligns perfectly - it's very important now with super crit to have berserk at right times so to max out dot dps, and that increase easily makes up for 500+ dummy dps when you translate it to raid environment and lose uptime. Anni maras are bit too good now (don't forget 'old' raids, raid buff, predation and amazing personal cooldowns), and so are maras in general - it's glory days again, too sad operative/sin dps are not getting nearly the same treatment.

But advantage is not so insane when you compare anni with AP, say. In that sense balance is bit better than it was in 3.0 where AP was the ultimate answer for everything, but arsenal, AP and anni all over again? With some occasional snipers or juggs? Even considering they shuffled out IO as 3.0 FOTM it doesn't justify arsenal being so good.

And don't forget debuffs specs can inflict on bosses.

So, better buff operative/sin/jugg/sorc sustain, nerf maras very slightly (like 50-100 dummy dps), tune sniper specs and you'll get something viable.

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It's funny how people talk about anni rotation being hard and fragile while I almost never can do better in carnage than I can in anni, back in 3.0 times I had 400-500 dps advantage in anni on lurker as compared to carnage and it's believed to be a burst fight. So rotation being difficult? Not THAT much.

QUOTE]

 

I don't think the rotation is hard just fragile i.e. if you get tiny bit out of sync and things stop lining up perfectly the dps drop is very large if my hands could actually take 55apm carnage is much more forgiving to play (I don't say much easier as they are both easy) but after one boss I pretty much have RSI from carnage

 

I am pretty much just saying you should not balance off dummy parses

 

and to support the dummy hero thingy

 

Added visual dps/hps spread to http://ixparse.com/rating/ - sents/maras may be dummy heroes, but in real fights all classes seem to be on par

 

http://ixparse.com/rating/

Edited by WheresMyWhisky
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I don't think the rotation is hard just fragile i.e. if you get tiny bit out of sync and things stop lining up perfectly the dps drop is very large if my hands could actually take 55apm carnage is much more forgiving to play (I don't say much easier as they are both easy) but after one boss I pretty much have RSI from carnage

 

I am pretty much just saying you should not balance off dummy parses

 

and to support the dummy hero thingy

 

Added visual dps/hps spread to http://ixparse.com/rating/ - sents/maras may be dummy heroes, but in real fights all classes seem to be on par

 

http://ixparse.com/rating/

 

Rotation fragility and/or difficulty should not be the only thing to be taken into account when balancing. Other things like raid utility should be as weel. Look at mara, they have amazing damage, a raid buff and a raid wide speed buff while other classes like sins for example do less damage, have no raid buff and pretty much no raid utility. So what would be the reason to take a sin when everything he can do a mara can do it better and has more tools to help the raid ? Class with amazing raid utility should do less damage since there are already a lot of reason to bring them in a raid.

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In a PVE point of view, I kinda agree with the OP.

So from a PVE point of view you agree with the two sentence OP that offers literally 0 support for their opinion. Yeah ok.

 

. I mean, anni is clearly an outlier for the moment and need to be brought back in line. I'm not calling for huge nerfs that destroy the class, just a little something so that it's not miles away from the other.

An outlier in what? The rest of the mara specs? Melee DPS? DPS? The farther you get down that line the less accurate these statements become. If you think a dummy parse is in any way representative of the actual damage you're going to be putting out in a raid, I have some very upsetting news for you.

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From a PvE standpoint, okay, so a DoT melee class that has an absurdly complicated rotation (compared to WoW's lol priority models) needs a nerf? lolno

 

PvP, what? Oh noes, you lost 1v1 against a class with multiple awesome DCDs, target dumps, and self heals? That's not an Annihilation or Watchman problem.

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I don't think the rotation is hard just fragile i.e. if you get tiny bit out of sync and things stop lining up perfectly the dps drop is very large (snip)

Exactly. I think every a tiny bit experienced anni mara can confirm that anni is quite strong, have not that bad target switching for a melee dot-based spec and some aoe even, but dummy numbers are just few hundreds higher than anything you could do on a boss with _minimal_ movement and scarcely any mechanics.

 

I do, however, support the point that bloodthirst+predation should cost some bit of dps for maras since otherwise it becomes a 'must have' rather than 'skill must be on par with other classes/specs'. AP has burst, however, and it really matters on Bront/Styrak, so...

 

Added visual dps/hps spread to http://ixparse.com/rating/ - sents/maras may be dummy heroes, but in real fights all classes seem to be on par

 

http://ixparse.com/rating/

Great job! At long last some actual data in this thread to base assumptions on.

Aaand, like I said, poor sins/operatives/sorcs. Those are the real outliers (and given dps checks it's more like they need a buff rather than other classes - a nerf). PvPers would cry tho, but then again look at juggs. And sorchealers are the pain now from what I understand, madness maybe, but lightning - not that much. Amirite?

 

Class with amazing raid utility should do less damage since there are already a lot of reason to bring them in a raid.

Aye, like I stated above. PTs still largely prevail due to offtank capabilities as well and such. GJ on Revan damage types BW. That's the point that ruined old tanking & tank stats, but that's completely off the topic.

 

It's hard to balance classes for all bosses at the time, however - especially given release date and available toolkits for different classes at the moment. Predation, say, is amazing boost for the whole raid dps/survivability on some bosses while on some other it's next to useless. So tradeoff between utility<->survivability<->dps output is not always clear but IMHO developers should've made their minds clear about it, like, we rate raid buff as 2% own dps output, a kit of strong DCDs as 0.5-1%, other raid utility as ... etc etc.

But then again, don't think they can take it into consideration as they seemingly fail to balance dps on its own. Not sure why, little balance tweaks every minor patch (once a month, say) should be easy to implement.

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  • 3 weeks later...

you can't balance or declare OP a spec depending on dummy parsing.

 

Live ops, safe perhaps SM modes of 4,0 which are a bit RollFaceOnKeyboard mode will sometimes strongly punish melees, by added damage, target switch, etc.

 

They will also sometimes punish ramp up spec a lot more than burst spec by sudden tight dps check (ex the HM calphayus add that cast mass corruption)

 

So it means, that in order to have sustained melee spec remain desirable, they do need higher dummy potential, as they will also be the one with the lowest effective application % in live ops.

 

They gave annihilation a good set of tools to stay on moving boss, quickly switch target even at range, altough obviously not at will like a Rdps, and good cooldowns to survive the extra damage that comes with melee range.

 

Thats something all mdps class, especially sustained should have.

 

the annihilation/carnage pve balance is currently in about as perfect a place as it can be. Both will do similarly in ops, with annihilation coming slightly on top, but carnage making burst dps phase much better.

 

Underlurker, imo, doesnt give carnage that many advantage. While its true there are a lot of interruption (rocks), they aren't long enough for annihilator stacks to fall off, and a single target switch to the add isn't that rotation breaking. You can also use some bleed spread if you land correctly near your add to make up the small dps loss you suffer compared to a spec like carnage.

 

Then its rock phase, so you come back to the fight with all your cooldowns availaible, and should keep dpsing at 4m on the cross to be under the archway.

 

All specs have their own perks and weaknesses, and while we can grossly say the highest to lowest dummy to ops losses are roughly:

 

Sustained Mdps -> burst mdps ->sustained range ->Burst range as a rule of thumb, it doesnt always come back exactly true for some specs, and they have to be balanced accordingly.

 

So dummy parse on parsely for bragging rights, not worth much imo. Most are done with macro, some using bugs to increase dps (Lightning and TK top parse come to mind) and none are done with a boss hitting at you and forcing you to move/switch according to diverse mechanic.

 

If we all have spec parsing the 224 gear 6612 dps average exactly on dummy, what you'll have are ops team with a bunch of rdps burst spec with little target switch restriction like Marksman/Sharpshooter, lightning/TK or Arsenal/Gunnery.

 

The later is probably a bit too strong currently. My ops team RDPS are both Arsenal merc, and sometimes I'm the sole Mdps on, with 3 arsenal mercs. Sometimes I get top dps. Sometimes they do. Depend on the fight and what happened, how it happened, when it happened. And I do think I'm a very good anni mara, even if I am far from being a master, I can get back into the optimal rotation very fast., and with minimal dps loss.

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you can't balance or declare OP a spec depending on dummy parsing.

 

Live ops, safe perhaps SM modes of 4,0 which are a bit RollFaceOnKeyboard mode will sometimes strongly punish melees, by added damage, target switch, etc.

 

Which op do you balance them around ? Which boss ?

 

So it means, that in order to have sustained melee spec remain desirable, they do need higher dummy potential, as they will also be the one with the lowest effective application % in live ops.

 

Thus you understand that a class having 350 more potential DPS on a dummy compared to the second similar class is far too much ?

 

So dummy parse on parsely for bragging rights, not worth much imo. Most are done with macro, some using bugs to increase dps (Lightning and TK top parse come to mind) and none are done with a boss hitting at you and forcing you to move/switch according to diverse mechanic.

 

This is not bragging right though.

 

The later is probably a bit too strong currently. My ops team RDPS are both Arsenal merc, and sometimes I'm the sole Mdps on, with 3 arsenal mercs. Sometimes I get top dps. Sometimes they do. Depend on the fight and what happened, how it happened, when it happened. And I do think I'm a very good anni mara, even if I am far from being a master, I can get back into the optimal rotation very fast., and with minimal dps loss.

 

Even if you're taking 2 overperforming spec as exemple, it shows how good balance should be done. Yes you're melee, but since you have more damage than the ranged in your group you can compete. The problem is that currently, marauders in general have too much tool in their arsenal on top of very good damage (except Fury, but that's a whole other story). Why would you take another melee than Anni or Carnage ?

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Why would you take another melee than Anni or Carnage ?

 

For aoe vengeance imo has better dotspread than anni while still having some nice burst. AP has comparable burst to carnage with the additional cheese of HO and Sonic Rebounder(granted, no raid buff). Both have taunt as well. Operatives are meh but lethality can be played mostly outside melee range with a nice ST sustained dmg and a possible stealth rez. Assassins are probably the worst from melee classes but still manage(somehow).

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