Yeah sorry I used different utc time site on tyth ss my bad, wont happen again I promise:jawa_angel:

Apology accepted my friend

Not at all, he's saying that the rules haven't been applied to the letter at all so why start doing that for 1 team 3 months after the thread was created. They were the 4th unique team to kill izax, and the way the leader board has been listed the entire time, whoever has the most advanced boss kill the most recently is listed top, that's why the 1st team to kill A/E isn't still first among the izax list because other teams killed izax first. Team Mango killed Izax after Amethyst so they would be listed right after Amethyst. The reason why the rest of their achievements are posted is because it would be silly to just leave that blank with the Izax achievement linked, doesn't change the fact that they still killed Izax 4th. If Team Mango happens to get timed run 2nd then it won't matter that they were 5th Izax since they would be 2nd on the most advanced achievement.

Nice logic right there, so if I go kill Izax 16man with lockout, I'll be top on 16man board, right? SeemsGood my friend.

Also Shyroman I don't think you understand the logic of "To illustrate this with an example; let's say Team A has cleared the first three bosses, Team B has cleared bosses 2, 3 and 4, and team Teac C has cleared bosses 1, 2, 3 and 4. In this case Team C would be ranked highest, Team A ranked 2nd, and Team B ranked 3rd." that has nothing to do with who has 1st Izax kill that is about who has more kills. To further clarify the thing you quoted, you have Team A killing bosses 1, 2 and 5 and Team B killing bosses 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5. Which one is higher? I would say Team B. But maybe math works differently for you.

And he had the idea of 4 achievements after they killed the boss with 4, that doesn't mean that they are legit, and that doesn't mean we can change the rules for 1 team after the "race" started, rules are for everyone. Let's make it 3, that would make it more poggers.

So, let me explain this further.

 

That simply states cleared those bosses, which Amethyst has clearly done. They're not trying to claim a certain ranking of the first 4 bosses, just 4th izax. So claim first Izax while clearing all 5, still will put them at 4th.

My understanding is that this is a progression board, correct? So why would it count how many times a team killed something? The "cleared" word clearly means the kill claim we were talking about. If it isn't the case, then this stops being a progression board, rather a kill counter board. If that was the case a point system would have been employed to better count that.

So the 4 unique members for the first 4 boss clears should still be relevant as far as using them as clears along with their 4th Izax kill with 5 unique members. He also previously had an understanding of there being only 4 unique members in that group when there are actually 5 right now. Either way, I'm done here.

Yes, I totally agree with the laxing of the rules as kills happen, but I wouldn't call 1st 5 kills of final boss an acceptable margin for this to occur. Maybe I'm overestimating the SWTOR playerbase, but at the moment less than 20% of the teams on the board killed Izax.

That's all I had to say.

Not going to quote each and every paragraph here but it should be pretty obvious to figure out whom/what I'm talking about.

This post is mainly to share my thoughts about the recent discussions in these posts, and perhaps steer towards a resolution. When volunteering to run this board and in making the rules that I did, I knew this was a much stricter board than prior SWTOR tiers but hopefully a much more accurate board too. In doing so I knew there'd likely be issues to work out along the way and this is just one to work through So I do respect the opinions put forward, knowing they're for the most part aimed towards a resolution.

So to begin with, I'm going to give a little commentary on the rulings. In writing the rulings, they obviously were not exhaustive of every single scenario and specific situation. Otherwise they would have multitudes longer and read like legislature with sections, subsections and clauses. Thus a degree of common sense regarding the interpretation of a ruling and the intention behind it is of course needed. This is not uncommon, even something as thoroughly detailed as legal systems are open to common sense interpretations (hence the need for judicial systems when the exact literal meaning of a law makes little functional sense).

The major ruling in question here are the constituents of a valid kill claim; in particular the 5 achievements. The intention behind this ruling being to fill the board of reasonably differentiated teams. Now if we look at the wording of it, we can see it is in reference to a kill claim, which is a singular event in time. A differentiated team (as defined by 5 independent members) and hence the intention behind the rule continues to exist through time.

On the topic of rulings I'll take some time here to address the laxing of rulings. At this point in time as far as I am concerned, I have started to lax Tyth and Aivela & Esne. Nahut, Scyva, and Izax are not at a point where I would accept fewer than 5 independent members. I understand not every screenshot shows all of the required achievements for many of the teams on the board but again, this is an area of common sense and I've made efforts to chase up and confirm on claims which appeared doubtful.

Now for the case in question regarding Team Amethyst. After some thorough investigation into the team I have the following understanding of the group;

-Statement 1: They have a total of 5 independent members (some of whom joined partway through the tier)

-Statement 2: When looking at initial kills from the team, only A&E (given the laxing of requirements now) and Izax would satisfy criteria

-Statement 3: When looking at kills following initial kills from the team, they are able to satisfy a minimum of 5 independent members (4 minimum in the case of Tyth and A&E) for all 5 bosses. That is all 5 members were present in the same kill of a boss.

Now referencing the comments regarding the rulings before; this team has not satisfied the strict literal definition as the definition focused on initial kills. This team has satisfied the intention behind the ruling; showing they are a reasonably independent team. Furthermore it is quite punishing to force a team to abstain from beginning progression while they are still solidifying a roster (The balance between accurate community representation and inclusiveness being a fine line when making these rulings). As I said before disputes like this are not uncommon and can swing either way. The question is to what degree do we value that the intention behind a ruling has been satisfied? And if we say the ruling has not been satisfied what is the appropriate measure? I understand Team Mango may be upset as they may be represented a place below they believe they should be. In the case of their position being swapped with Team Amethyst, what happens when another team representing Team Mangos circumstance achieves 5/5 bosses? Does a separate category or marker for initial assisted kills need to exist?

These are mostly rhetoric but if they spark some imagination feel free to weigh in.

As I said, the purpose of this posting is to share my thoughts on the current situation to try steer it towards a resolution. I'll probably wait another day or two to give any invested individuals a chance to respond and share their opinions before adjusting anything on the board.

To reiterate a last time;

The main issue I see here is that a team has satisfied the intention of a ruling but not satisfied the literal definition. Whether to include this team or not is the debate and I am open to opinions regarding this.

Not going to quote each and every paragraph here but it should be pretty obvious to figure out whom/what I'm talking about.

 

This post is mainly to share my thoughts about the recent discussions in these posts, and perhaps steer towards a resolution. When volunteering to run this board and in making the rules that I did, I knew this was a much stricter board than prior SWTOR tiers but hopefully a much more accurate board too. In doing so I knew there'd likely be issues to work out along the way and this is just one to work through So I do respect the opinions put forward, knowing they're for the most part aimed towards a resolution.

 

So to begin with, I'm going to give a little commentary on the rulings. In writing the rulings, they obviously were not exhaustive of every single scenario and specific situation. Otherwise they would have multitudes longer and read like legislature with sections, subsections and clauses. Thus a degree of common sense regarding the interpretation of a ruling and the intention behind it is of course needed. This is not uncommon, even something as thoroughly detailed as legal systems are open to common sense interpretations (hence the need for judicial systems when the exact literal meaning of a law makes little functional sense).

The major ruling in question here are the constituents of a valid kill claim; in particular the 5 achievements. The intention behind this ruling being to fill the board of reasonably differentiated teams. Now if we look at the wording of it, we can see it is in reference to a kill claim, which is a singular event in time. A differentiated team (as defined by 5 independent members) and hence the intention behind the rule continues to exist through time.

On the topic of rulings I'll take some time here to address the laxing of rulings. At this point in time as far as I am concerned, I have started to lax Tyth and Aivela & Esne. Nahut, Scyva, and Izax are not at a point where I would accept fewer than 5 independent members. I understand not every screenshot shows all of the required achievements for many of the teams on the board but again, this is an area of common sense and I've made efforts to chase up and confirm on claims which appeared doubtful.

 

Now for the case in question regarding Team Amethyst. After some thorough investigation into the team I have the following understanding of the group;

-Statement 1: They have a total of 5 independent members (some of whom joined partway through the tier)

-Statement 2: When looking at initial kills from the team, only A&E (given the laxing of requirements now) and Izax would satisfy criteria

-Statement 3: When looking at kills following initial kills from the team, they are able to satisfy a minimum of 5 independent members (4 minimum in the case of Tyth and A&E) for all 5 bosses. That is all 5 members were present in the same kill of a boss.

Now referencing the comments regarding the rulings before; this team has not satisfied the strict literal definition as the definition focused on initial kills. This team has satisfied the intention behind the ruling; showing they are a reasonably independent team. Furthermore it is quite punishing to force a team to abstain from beginning progression while they are still solidifying a roster (The balance between accurate community representation and inclusiveness being a fine line when making these rulings). As I said before disputes like this are not uncommon and can swing either way. The question is to what degree do we value that the intention behind a ruling has been satisfied? And if we say the ruling has not been satisfied what is the appropriate measure? I understand Team Mango may be upset as they may be represented a place below they believe they should be. In the case of their position being swapped with Team Amethyst, what happens when another team representing Team Mangos circumstance achieves 5/5 bosses? Does a separate category or marker for initial assisted kills need to exist?

These are mostly rhetoric but if they spark some imagination feel free to weigh in.

 

As I said, the purpose of this posting is to share my thoughts on the current situation to try steer it towards a resolution. I'll probably wait another day or two to give any invested individuals a chance to respond and share their opinions before adjusting anything on the board.

 

To reiterate a last time;

The main issue I see here is that a team has satisfied the intention of a ruling but not satisfied the literal definition. Whether to include this team or not is the debate and I am open to opinions regarding this.

Everything you said are valid points. I think the best option would be to add a weighted average to the kills, making the kills that follow the initial rules count a bit more than the kills that satisfy the lax rules. I don't think anyone has a problem with any team being on the board (or at least I would certainly hope so, the more the merrier), it is in fact the order that started this whole discussion. Since there was already something along these lines on the original post you made (the so-called lockout kill I previously mentioned in a post), it would be nice to make it more transparent and allow for teams that have roster issues to still claim kills.

P.S.

The fact that you took the time to create and manage this thread is awesome, so please don't take the latest discussion as an affront to you. It is indeed just an attempt to better the thread and to avoid such issues in the future (at least for my part). I know it is not easy and I sincerely hope you continue this for the (hopefully) following tiers.

I love these meme threads, some NA chap make a thread with a few A4 pages of rules that nobody bothers to read and then people are surprised when some big drama happens. Everyone in NA takes drama so seriously, the dailies meme on PTS for example heh.

Setting difficulty mode to HM and skip difficult bosses to claim world first on subsequent bosses? Top tier meme!

Using superb jumping skills to glitch into torches and LOS calph preventing him from moving and attacking? Decent tier meme!

Four people in key roles with kill achievements temporary join teams to teach mechanics and raidlead? Weak tier meme!

In my opinion, I think this time around the traditional NA meme is just positive for the nightmare raiding community. Generally leadership, learning new encounters and executing particularly difficult mechanics are always going to be the key things separating teams of different caliber. In past progressions, most teams have had one or two players with these capabilities and been able to figure out and execute mechanics at roughly the same pace.

Today, we have far fewer players of that caliber and it only makes sense that those players will assist teams who lack players of that caliber to help them progress on difficult bosses. As far as I can read, neither of these NA chaps are denying that those teams have a far easier time killing the bosses due to the tactical advantage and I think that is all we in Beam’s Dramango Mercenaries want. In the end, we ourselves have four people (two tanks, a healer and a DPS) assist another DM team in a similar way by explaining mechanics, teaching how to execute them and play the more difficult roles.

After trolling ourselves for... quite some time, we (Infinitas Team Gold, Tulak Hord, pubside) finally killed Scyva.

Edit: I can provide additional screenshots for other group member's achievements, should the screen linked above be insufficient.

Really sorry for taking so long to update (It's been a bit of a bad habit recently).

Regarding the issues of the rankings of Team Amethyst and Team Mango; I recognise that the presence of additional further progressed fillins and members can impact progression and given the close time between the Izax submissions by both teams it could have played a factor in the final rankings between the teams. I also recognise that utilising further progressed players for initial clears is something which could be abused to speed up progression for a team. To me there obviously isn't any malicious abuse here but it is still an area where I would side cautiously. Given that Team Amethyst has shown satisfactory levels of team independence I have chosen to keep them on the board with all of their kills. If a future case arises it'll likely be a case of common sense and individual case review; if kills are drastically far apart then likely rankings won't be changed.

One other change I made in this board update was regarding the teams Better Now and Braindead Minds. After having discussed with the relevant players my understanding is that the Braindead Minds team has effectively ceased and there is an overlap of at least 5 players between the Braindead Minds claims and the Better Now claims. Thus I have treated it as essentially a team re-form with the same core of players. I have allowed Better Now to retain the kills from Braindead Minds and thus removed Braindead Minds from the board.

Aivela and Esne <Team Exposed> Darth Malgus

https://imgur.com/WWT0dRG

Vitamin Ree <LIT>

NIM sister's kill

https://imgur.com/a/etRqtc2

Nahut - LSD/Carried you - Darth Malgus

https://imgur.com/yZXuoMG

Tyth & Sisters 16m - Team Fragile Ego EU (Team Mango + Farming Components) - Darth Malgus

Tyth

https://i.gyazo.com/083e857d46ed7a2978a2e38c98baa2fd.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kvXMv6D.jpg

Sisters

https://i.gyazo.com/be5149a5707d9c1a10c11bdcd45967fa.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/JPbcQnQ.jpg

Nahut & Scyva 16m - Team Fragile Ego EU (Team Mango + Farming Components) - Darth Malgus

Nahut

https://i.gyazo.com/d9bcf6b4ca226e06e15966f6f3d4499c.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pBk62h1.jpg

Scyva

https://i.imgur.com/TykJZWy.jpg

https://i.gyazo.com/694465a90247b7cc9b1da5f7c23ac3f7.jpg

Team Resurrection from <Fortitude> on Star Forge (Republic) got our first clear of Tyth last night. Four of us had the cheevo already. Screenshots of cheevo dings are below, since chat is blocked in the video footage.

Cheevo dings: image 1, image 2

Video: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/395181269

better now izax

https://gyazo.com/755c3aec9c5148e12e937bfe369eb4ae

Izax 16m - Team Fragile Ego EU (Team Mango + Farming Components) - Darth Malgus

https://i.gyazo.com/099c8aaa84b0774d14d564a3163c5a19.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/DeLyV4W.jpg

world last tyth kill

6 in guild for screen shot and 2 in other guild if you want shot

Team LF1M

Imp Guild - <Escape From Reality>

https://imgur.com/a/5Btnaqz

World Last <Lightning Masters> Tyth NiM kill

full stream: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/398725458

kill: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/398795465

Achievements popped for jayllan, katarina, oni'ssan, stacks guys, and slade

Tyth - <Syndicate of the Dark Star> - Team Polska - Darth Malgus

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/478976649778692106/559092332558024746/tyth.png

Achievement popped for Fudu, Jarrick, Jaed and Lisa

Doom's Delayed - <Failure> Group Emerald - Imperial - Satele Shan

https://i.gyazo.com/91aa09ff048422552bdae7e8352ab0b9.jpg