Hey everyone,

 

Just wanted to log my opinion on the forums regarding the state of current end-game PVE content. To put it simply, there is simply not enough endgame PVE at the moment.

 

1.2 was out in April and the reality is most people were able to enter story mode at that point and at least start progress in there, within 2 or 3 weeks the top guilds had taken a serious chunk out of the hard mode version. Honestly, I think that the content difficulty was of a good level, so good job there. The problem is, there needed to be more content or more bosses.

 

I believe (and I may be wrong) that most guilds now will be 3/4 EC Hard Mode and guilds who haven't got them on farm probably only haven't due to the recent lag issues everyone faced and the re-spawn of adds after wipes. There are also a good percentage of guilds that have EC Hard Mode fully cleared and on farm and have been in that position for 1 month.

 

What's the result of all this? Honestly I think a lot of players will be un-subbing within the next 4 weeks. I personally have had a few players quit our raid teams from being either tired of the recurrent bugs & lag or simply from being bored of the content. The hard mode version of EC really isn't that different to story mode, definitely not enough to keep people interested.

 

If you want a successful MMO with constant subscribers - you have to cater for everyone playing the game. A lot of people like myself play MMOs purely for raiding - if there is no new content you lose those players pretty quickly. EC Nightmare should have been released in 1.3 and you need a brand new operation within the next 3 or 4 weeks based on that. As there was no nightmare released in 1.3 - you need a new operation now. People are getting very, very bored of mindlessly clearing trash in EC.

 

I hate to bash SWTOR but i'm now tired of having to replace players or persuade players to stay in the game on a weekly basis and when you have to justify why they should stay, you suddenly realise you can't justify the sub cost for a raid player.

 

Regards,

Thermal

Elite Gaming Raid Guides

http://www.youtube.com/Thermal8691

perhaps the solution isn't more but rather more difficult. not nightmare modes but something nonwow clone hard. you can even have content that might reguire special gear abilities only on gear from the previous tier. you must have the gear or you wont be able to survive the encounter. there are several things that can be done when you leave the wow clone encounters mold behind and move on to real difficult content.

perhaps the solution isn't more but rather more difficult. not nightmare modes but something nonwow clone hard. you can even have content that might reguire special gear abilities only on gear from the previous tier. you must have the gear or you wont be able to survive the encounter. there are several things that can be done when you leave the wow clone encounters mold behind and move on to real difficult content.

 

The problem with op gating is you shut down the number of players who are available to play. If a guild is on to the next tier of Op and three of their raiders (for example) have various real life issues to deal with, finding replacements is infinitely more difficult and requires the guild to go back and run the older instance and hope for the right drops to get the replacements up to speed.

 

On the other hand, if you aren't gating on gear you can carry the replacements for a little while until the current content drops catch them up.

 

Many don't think so, but it really is a good thing that so many people are getting geared up on ops and BH gear. It will benefit the top guilds whether they think so or not (lots of good players who were behind in gear and couldn't necessarily catch up to the point where the top guilds would give them a shot.)

i've seen more people leave because they lost their names and their guilds have not been making steady progression in echm.

 

but yeah, im sure a few insatiable raiders are ragequitting because they have cleared echm too many times.

 

i am new to mmos but it seems like you guys want a new game every 3 monthes, and you swtich games every 2 monthes.

Here's an idea, play some alts, enjoy all the storylines that this game has to offer.

Well im in no rush yet, becouse my guild havn't finnished ec hm. But there will be alot of more raid content coming in 1.4, nim for ec, new nim for both ev and kp. And the new operation Terror From Beyond.

I can definetly see that we need new content now, but i'd rather wait another 1 or 2 mounths so it won't be full of buggs. And that kp and ev actually gets a REAL nim. Im hopeing for new event(or events) to keep me buisy in mean while.

 

And thanks Thermal for your raid guides in swtor, it has helped my guild alot!

Just goes to show you. You can't make everyone happy. No matter how many Op's they put out the top guilds will chew thru them and spit them out and ask for more.

I hope they make the next new Op so hard that no guild can complete the hard mode. Then you'll be complaining that it's too hard and unreasonable.

I'd like to see the first boss spawn 8 teams of stun locking operatives to wipe the entire raid. I'd pay to watch that on youtube.

Bring on nightmare mode flashpoints and then more OPs.

Here's an idea, play some alts, enjoy all the storylines that this game has to offer.

 

My 50's: Powertech, Guardian, Sage, Assassin, Sniper.

In progress: Marauder(mid 30's), Operative(mid 30's)

 

I don't need to play more alts. I need BW to release content, and more difficult content faster. If the content was more difficult, then they could slow the time they release new content. If they make it so easy that my 8 year old son can do (and yes, he has played my toon while watching and did ok) then there is a problem.

Here's an idea, play some alts, enjoy all the storylines that this game has to offer.

 

I have 5 level 50s now 2 of which are geared out. I dont want to level more toons give us more content faster. Id really like to know why it takes them 3-4 months to put out content patches. I mean even little things like events help. at least give us new stuff to do or new places to explore. the game is going stale very very quickly now

I'd like to see the first boss spawn 8 teams of stun locking operatives to wipe the entire raid. I'd pay to watch that on youtube.

 

This made me laugh out loud. God speed G.Z.

 

Back to the point of this thread ... I am not sure that new OPs will solve this problem. It is probably a very time consuming process to make, test and balance a new OP, not to mentioned the associated gear. Also, it is quite difficult to make the newest OP be challenging for the top raids while making it accessible to the masses. From running EC, I am pretty sure that 90+ % of the population can't beat the final boss(even if geared in BH / Rakata / columi). If they make it more accessible then the raiders will complain that it is too easy and rage quit. I suppose more difficulty levels might solve this but it is only a temporary solution.

 

I think the devs should look to make repeatable / recyclable content that can be run indefinitely. The best example is WZ. But I think more social activities, like Pazaak and Swoop racing, that involve NO "pew pew" would be great too. I find rinse and repeat raiding to be a snooze fest, and so do most of my friends online.

you really dont know why it takes more that 3-4 months to release new content?

 

It is called production, something that BioWare has a history of doing very well.

 

It would be nice if they would make nim fps and put the new nim ops on the pts for these insatiable guilds to chew through and spit out at an alarming rate.

 

If you want a game that you will never beat, you should prolly play tetris or simon.

Try clearing HM EC in 24 hours, and farming it for the last 3 months. No kidding they need to speed it up...

 

If the tools are not available to produce content at a faster pace, they should have been developed. Rift does a pretty good job of churning out content, overall quality of the game notwithstanding. At least some reasoning as to why this is taking so long would work wonders at easing the level of impatience some of us are reaching. Is is a technical hurdle? Are the tools still in development?

 

More than likely, their team is spread thin covering other bases since so many people have been laid off.

Try clearing HM EC in 24 hours, and farming it for the last 3 months. No kidding they need to speed it up...

 

If the tools are not available to produce content at a faster pace, they should have been developed. Rift does a pretty good job of churning out content, overall quality of the game notwithstanding. At least some reasoning as to why this is taking so long would work wonders at easing the level of impatience some of us are reaching. Is is a technical hurdle? Are the tools still in development?

 

More than likely, their team is spread thin covering other bases since so many people have been laid off.

 

Im thinking the same thing I mean I realize that alot of time needs to go into major content patches and thats all well and good but it would be nice to have little additions between patches. Rift does it all the time in addition to very fast patch releases. Hell I think the last major patch they released pretty much doubled the size of the map. Would it be so difficult to add new areas to old planets add weekly challenges for groups (unique quests only available for that week) or even just more little events like the rakghoul plague.

 

I understand that the game engine they are using has pretty severe limitations but if its really making content so difficult to develop why the hell did they use it in the first place? I mean I could be wrong here but if you want to have a successful MMO isnt it better to have a system in place that allows you to constantly push out new content?

HeroEngine was a mistake from the very start...

 

http://www.heroengine.com/2011/11/heroengine-meets-starwars/

 

Some choice quotes:

 

"Our goal was to build a modern graphical MMO RPG that allowed our team of designers to continually add new content into the game..."

So did they accomplish this? I don't get it.

 

"I need this,” said Gordon. “I am about to start a special project and these tools will let us build and prototype fast and get something running in a hurry.”

So, they were always in a hurry, yet six years later they rushed a still incomplete project? :/

 

“It’s not productized yet,” we told Gordon. “There are whole sections of code that is only roughed in and not optimized for performance or security. And there are very few comments and very little documentation.”

 

He didn’t care.

Yep. Sounds like EA.

 

We were concerned over their making major changes to our engine, but we loved the size of the check that came with the deal.

That's HeroEngine's creators covering their butts for how awful SWTOR's engine turned out to be, imho.

 

In fact, part of me wonders if BioWare's initial intentions were to use HE to prototype the game, similar to the way Elder Scrolls Online did, but then transition into their own in-house engine. That would've been a much, much better course of action, but I bet someone at EA pulled the plug on that idea for monetary reasons.

Edited July 21, 2012 by cshouston

Here's an idea, play some alts, enjoy all the storylines that this game has to offer.

 

Juts by playing 1 character on each faction, you have seen 90% of the story.

Here's an idea, play some alts, enjoy all the storylines that this game has to offer.

 

Have five level 50's. All of which are in AT LEAST Rakata.

 

Been legacy 50 for months. Have 15~ Million credits to my name. (Don't care for more).

 

I am a raider, why is it selfish to ask for more content when it is the part I most enjoy and desperately needed? I've done most everything else the game has to offer to keep me busy.

Have five level 50's. All of which are in AT LEAST Rakata.

 

Been legacy 50 for months. Have 15~ Million credits to my name. (Don't care for more).

 

I am a raider, why is it selfish to ask for more content when it is the part I most enjoy and desperately needed? I've done most everything else the game has to offer to keep me busy.

 

Let me end the raiders / hardcore / casual argument for you. Yes, you can blame this guy for blowing though content, and yes people going slower still have tons to do. But, here is the only important issue

 

An MMO that costs $15 a month should produce about $15 a month worth of new content.

 

If it's not doing that ... why are you paying $15 a month?

Yes, I agree the game needs more Ops. However, I believe the game needs more then that. It needs side attractions. It needs real space that is multiplayer... possibly with space raids and pvp space. Dynamic events like in Rift or GW2 would be killer in this game. Just getting more ops every 3 to 7 months is not going to cut it. IMO of course.

Signed.

 

Even if it was another Ragkhoul Plague on another planet that would keep some people busy for a bit.

 

Perhaps HK-51 will be the next event?

My 2 cents

 

There is more than enough PVE content for a game that is 8 months old, whats lacking is the number of bosses per raid. EC is well done but with only 4 bosses it would never fill the required months BW was hoping for till the next content patch update.

 

For those players at the cutting edge of raiding content this arguement of insufficent content will always be the same, because these players will always clear content faster than it can produced.

 

The only arguement I support is that NM mode EC should have been released in 1.3 but considering NM mode was truly never an option considered by BW but they are currently trying to meet players requests.

 

BW wanted to market a game that appealed to the masses, the "average" player. Since then we the hardcore raiders and pvpers have hijacked the game and bleeted over and over to have the game conform to what we want. I say sit back and enjoy the journey and let BW make the game they wanted to produce. If the game is to easy or not fun then go play something else,

Edited July 22, 2012 by NoxiousAlby

Let me end the raiders / hardcore / casual argument for you. Yes, you can blame this guy for blowing though content, and yes people going slower still have tons to do. But, here is the only important issue

 

An MMO that costs $15 a month should produce about $15 a month worth of new content.

 

If it's not doing that ... why are you paying $15 a month?

 

Does someone write your jokes for you, because goddamn you are hilarious.

My 50's: Powertech, Guardian, Sage, Assassin, Sniper.

In progress: Marauder(mid 30's), Operative(mid 30's)

 

I don't need to play more alts. I need BW to release content, and more difficult content faster. If the content was more difficult, then they could slow the time they release new content. If they make it so easy that my 8 year old son can do (and yes, he has played my toon while watching and did ok) then there is a problem.

 

Maybe you need to get out more...

I knew this would split opinion and I think I covered that I understand both points of view in my original post. So taking everything so far into consideration said so far.....

 

Yes, I could go and make an alt or 3 or 4 or 5 - that's what the legacy system has been put in place for, to give people who like to see different storylines and play multiple classes a reward and an incentive. However, that's not my play-style, in every game i've played - i've never liked alts and never will - I like to stick to one character and it's as simple as that. I do however entirely understand players who like these aspects of the game. But please for one minute, before you shoot down the raiders of the game, put the shoe on the other foot....

 

Imagine if the game didn't have multiple storylines and just 1 quest line per faction and imagine the leveling process was shortened down 50%. Suddenly the game isn't so appealing for that style of player.

 

It's quite simple - this is the challenge that any MMO faces, you have to be able to provide content to satisfy all of your players to retain players. I'm not saying we don't need the legacy system or an incentive for people to level alts or do non-raid content - I am all for that, if we didn't have content for those players then we lose those players and that's bad for the community. It's all about ensuring there is a balance - the game is an MMORPG and lets not forget what this stand for - 'massively multiplayer online role-playing game'. If it's just played for the story line and re-levelling alts. The game simpley becomes an online-RPG. If it only has raid content and no real quest line or story line, all you have is a MMO game.

 

There's no need for the non-raiders to tell the raiders to go try some alts (many of the raiders have any way), equally there's no need for the raiders to tell the people who love the levelling content to go play some raids and see how difficult the game is. Both are 2 of the main styles of play in every MMO and both have equal justification. The fact is the developers MUST provide for both audiences and that's why i'm here fighting my corner for what I enjoy and saying we need more raid content and more difficult raid content. Please feel free to add your oppinions in terms of what we need to satisfy the non-raider because this is key to the games development, but there's no need to say the raiders are doing something wrong because they''ve cleared the content and want more.

 

Onto my second and final discussion of this post - many have said 'I think the game needs more than new raid content, side-quests e.t.c.'. I fully agree with this - as a raid player - I can't remember the last time I left the fleet, because I really have no incentive to do so. Other than collecting datacrons and dailies - I have no reason to leave (lets remember aswell that dailies and datacrons really don't take that long to get in reality). So after this is done, what do we do?

 

BW sort of created flaws in the tradeskilling system. By giving us tradeskills that can be done by just sending your crew off on missions and you can get materials that are GTN sellable from this, once again we're giving no incentive to get out off of the fleet. I have to say I hugely praised the system at first because I normally hate farming for materials in MMOs and thought great, just invest in your crew and send them off - i'm now seeing how it can actually harm the game at the same time as being a nice commodity.

 

However... It can work, we do just need to see more side-material. Some more open-world events... flashpoints that are a little more tiered and interesting so that even raiders will do them in the week, as someone has said - multiplayer space PVP/missions. The game has so many options and so much potential but you get the feeling after the lay offs that they are very short on resources to really develop these key areas and turn the MMO into a real great on the market.

 

Raiders, non-raiders, roleplayers we need to put pressure on Bioware as a collective to release new content for all of us, it may not make a difference but at least we tried. Shooting each others interests down helps noone and the reality is that without all the different play-styles on the game - the game has nothing and becomes boring.

 

Finally thanks to Jakobpoop for saying thanks for the raid guides. We're glad they helped

 

Regards,

Thermal

Elite Gaming

http://www.youtube.com/Thermal8691

I knew this would split opinion and I think I covered that I understand both points of view in my original post. So taking everything so far into consideration said so far.....

 

Snipped for length... its right above me....

 

 

This has got to be the most well thought out best post, that I have read on these forums in a long time.